C:DH - Odd usage of Holocaust

[Raverrn]

I charge a transport with a Grey Knight, kill it with a Nemesis Force Weapon at I5, and it explodes. Everyone piles out. Can I then, at I1, use Holocaust and catch the poor survivors?

[Lothlanathorian]

I would say that if you destroyed the transport at I5 then, by Initiative step 1, you are no longer engaged in H2H, so that combat is finished.

[grissom2006]

If they was inside the transport your CC was with the transport not the contents of it. You destroyed the transport the CC phase as such ended in that action unless you was in a multiple assualt.

[Lungboy]

This issue comes up sometimes due to the fuzzy wording in the DH codex. All it states is that in the DH player's assault phase, you can place the template in contact with your Psyker and it fires at I1. People sometimes read this to mean that the unit doesn't have to be in assault with anything to use it, just that it is used during the assault phase. I'd argue that if the unit isn't in assault with anything, they never get to I1 so can't use it.

[ehlijen]

And I'd agree with you, Lungboy.

What I can see happening is this though:
Let's say you're fighting a transport squadron. One is destroyed, its cargo dumped out, but some are still left and using holocaust, you could make a further attack against a remaning model in the squadron. If this attack happens to also cover some of the models that just had to disembark, you get to attack them as well. You must, however, attempt to cover as much of the squadron you're still in combat with, even if you can't actually hurt the vehicle or if you could hit more infantry models by placing it differently.

[Mondobot]

As long as you are in CC at I1 then you can use the holocost power. You can place it anywhere. There is no limit to which models you have to hit(it does not have to target the unit in cc), you can even hit your own men with it, and even place it over the psycher and have him hit himself. The ONLY restriction is it must be in contact with him.

[toonboy78]

would you expect to attack them with I1 thunderhammers (if your squad had them)?

so for me it is no you can't use it. once the vehicle is died all attacks finish then.

[Lothlanathorian]

Originally Posted by Mondobot

As long as you are in CC at I1 then you can use the holocost power. You can place it anywhere. There is no limit to which models you have to hit(it does not have to target the unit in cc), you can even hit your own men with it, and even place it over the psycher and have him hit himself. The ONLY restriction is it must be in contact with him.

As long as he is in CC, yes, but he isn't in this scenario. Unless there was a third unit, one that wasn't in the transport and that was a second unit he had engaged in H2H, then he can't do it.

[Kyrolon]

In an effort to thoroughly answer this question I will offer a counter proposal. When we begin the assault phase we determine which models are engaged in HTH combat. Now, let's look at a single model. This model is engaged at the beginning of the assault phase and has an attack that strikes at I1. Before he swings the rest of his unit kills all of the engaged enemy models that he was in range of. Does he still get to swing? He is unengaged. The answer is, of course, yes he is allowed to swing because we determined at the beginning of the assault who was engaged.

This, of course, is slightly different than the transport situation because part of the enemy unit remains.

The question that must be answered then is what tells us the assault ends immediately once the enemy is wiped out? I would propose that the combat isn't over until we get to the resolution step at the end of the phase for that combat. In other words all Initiative steps get to go, THEN we determine if the combat is over. Under normal circumstances this is irrelevant as close combat attacks require at least one model from the unit in BTB, but with holocaust this is not listed as a requirement. As such I'd like to see some supporting evidence for the immediate end of the combat once all engaged enemy models are dead. As far as I recall this isn't called for as a check until combat resolution.

[solkan]

I'm a bit surprised by it, but after trying to find a way to refute it, I think Kyrolon's point may be good. On page 37, the rules state that a model must attack at its initiative step, and it can do so even if all of the opponents with which it was engaged are dead. I think the normal application of the rule is for cases like CSM daemon weapons or other rules where the attack might be harmful to the attacker, but it does seem to apply here as well.

The Eldar equivalent to the weird Holocaust situation:
Let's say that Prince Yriel and some FAQ'ed Banshees charged a unit and the Banshees slaughtered all of the enemy at I10. So, Yriel still has to attack because of page 37 (and page 37 says he can attack, too). So, whether or not it would be a good idea, Yriel attacks using Eye of Wrath to try to kill another unit.

[grissom2006]

Except assualts don't follow all the standard rules when against a vehicle.

[solkan]

But nothing in the rules for assaulting vehicles exempts the participants from page 37. In fact, there's even the line "As normal, all engaged models will attack." under the Launching An Assault heading on page 63.

[grissom2006]

Well expect a person to assualt back if you try it.

[bigcheese76]

as cool as it would be to do, i dont think the rules allow it as destroying the tank means you are no longer in combat with the tank and therfore your assault phase had finished and so you cant stike again.

[Kyrolon]

The question isn't striking again, it is striking the first time. Based on your interpretation if the vehicle dies at I5, then I4,3,2, and 1 never strike. According to the basic rules for HTH this isn't true. Casualties do not cause a model to become unengaged. Therefore, the I1 holocaust can still be used. In order to be swayed that it can't be used I'd have to see something to the effect that the combat ends IMMEDIATELY upon the death/destruction of the target unit. To my recollection this is only stated in the section on resolving combat. To get to that step you must go through all initiative steps first.

[hangnail]

I just don't think you can attack a brand new unit (which the dismounting squad counts as) midway through an assault phase. Not sure if it applies but consider if you are engaged with two units but only in BTB with one at the start of the phase, you are stuck with that one. Even if you lose your BTB oopponent, you can't switch back to the other unit. If this is the case, it seems unlikely you can start targetting the transported unit.

[grissom2006]

The rules do however set out who we're eligble targarts for hth at the start of the phase. Along with who could fight back. Removal of models and still getting to fiight with a model that no longer is in btb is intented for if any models frrom the original fight have survived.

[Stucorb]

If the models were not present at the beginning of the assault phase then they cannot be hit right?

[nothere]

As far as i remember, holocaust puts a large blast in base contact with the caster and everything under the template is hit - be it friendly or enemy model, assaulted unit or the one that just happened to be nearby. It's not like daemonhunters are making their HtH attacks against the second unit after it just appeared from the wrecked transport. They are just following the rules for holocaust attack, since they can make it even after their initial target is destroyed.

[Kyrolon]

Originally Posted by grissom2006

The rules do however set out who we're eligble targarts for hth at the start of the phase. Along with who could fight back. Removal of models and still getting to fiight with a model that no longer is in btb is intented for if any models frrom the original fight have survived.

Nothing in the rules indicates that. In order for holocaust to not work the assault would need to end immediately. It doesn't (or at least no one has been able to show where this is stated). Since the model using holocaust at I1 still gets his action, and since holocaust doesn't need to target any specific model from the unit that was in HTH with the caster, then holocaust may be used by the OP as described.