WarSeer's Skaven Council of Thirteen!

[kor anon]

sure here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212002

[restore111]

hi, im greatly interested in skavan as my next army. but im not too interested in moulder or skyre. is pestilens or eshin more competitive? tips for the more competitive one? army possibilities? advice?

[Angelust]

You may want to wait a few more weeks until further rumors come out about the new army book.

From what I hear, pestilins is getting a big boost with frenzied and hating plague monks with 2 poisoned hand weapons. Censer bearers I think will be mostly the same

Eshin I'm not so sure about. Night runners are becoming RnF troops, and I think assassins are staying hero choices...

[restore111]

where can i see the current rumors?

[Angelust]

...the rumor section! :-)

[restore111]

lol my bad. but the new army book aside, would you be able to help me with my original questions?

[bert n ernie]

@restore111
Do remember that the new Skaven book is coming out early November. Any advise we give you will be invalid before you've gotten to finish even a third of an army of skaven.
Eshin is currently flawed in one major way. Their character choices are far too overcosted. Assasains are less powerful than Dark Elf assasains, they cost more and they take up a hero choice. There are very few competitive armies which would take them.
Gutter runners are great, but generally are used in small units. I've not heard of units greater than 10. They are often used for taking out warmachines, using poison attacks to get tough opponents who have no armour. Their tunnelling ability can be great for getting behind enemy lines early on.
Night runners are likely to become ranked units in the new book. For now they are skirmishers, so any advise will completely change. Night runners currently are used as line of sight blockers so that opponents can't shoot our good units. Occasionally they are used for flank charges, but usually giant rats are better at this.
In pestilence.
All of the choices are good, but to take them exclusively is not very effective.
Plague priests can do brilliantly with a magic weapon and can take out cavalry and sometimes characters.
Plague monks can be good against low toughness low save enemy units. Against anything else and the odds are stacked against you. Large units of plague monks usually are just too costly.
Plague censer bearers are great, as long as you use them well by keeping them near terrain, and don't take more than about 7 in a unit, as any more is useless.
Really it might just be worth waiting for the new book. Currently you are looking at 6 different choices in total for those two clans, and it will definitely increase with the new book.

[Ward.]

It's official, the skaven army book has been released, we're now a 7th edition army and it's about time the council shared their thoughts on the new book.

Personally, I don't like it any more then the old book.

The fluff isn't as in depth (the abominations background is a bit of a let down, especially compared to other games and their in depth look at fantasy science *coughmtgandphyrexia).
The new artworks almost reminds me of courage the cowardly dog, not sure why yet.

-Ruleswise the lack of useful magic items beyond the storm banner, plague banner and the two leadership modifying items is over shadowed by rat ogres almost being good/ rat ogre bonebreaker mounts being made of win. No 4+ wardsave but it's not like the game isn't better off without them, an alternative to make the warlord an attractive choice over the grey seer would have been nice.

-Assasins and plague priests got a needed/ appreciated buff while engineers got more expensive and a lot less meaningful, assassins are still a bit pricey though. The special characters aren't all that good and the items they carry would have looked better in the magic items section.

-Stormvermin should be usable now and I look forwards to seeing the first few clan rictus themed armies emerging from the under empire, while not strictly competitive.

I've played 2 proper sized 2250pt games with them so far and have been impressed with the doomwheel and abomination, the first game saw the abomination ponder along at 6 inches a turn before seeing combat with a unit of orcs on turn 5. Wiffed it's attacks and got hammered by a war boss, became a rat swarm and crumbled.
The second game I had today it got charged by a unit of ogre's with tyrant 'n butcher, the tyrant rolled 3 1's to wound and I regenerated. Leading to an attack result of 6, nothing failed it's initiative test but I got 9 auto hits, all wounded and won combat by 6-7.
The doomwheels a boot to the teeth, it lightning bolted about 30 points worth of clanrats before pinging a warboss and his wyvern with some S6 goodness. Didn't use it in the second battle but I'm pretty sure it would have put the hurt on ogres.

My next opponent will either be VC/KDOC or OnG this Thursday or Saturday, so look forwards to a battle report of sorts.

[20yr_veteran]

May be too late but im a long time player, skaven being one of my main armies for years so if you still need advice/people let me know

[Thanatos_elNyx]

Maybe its time for a new thread?

[Ward.]

Originally Posted by Thanatos_elNyx

Maybe its time for a new thread?

A new council of thirteen thread?

That's blasphemy

[bert n ernie]

Originally Posted by Ward.

A new council of thirteen thread?

That's blasphemy

And yet it's found right here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=225072&page=9

I'm not sure which people will end up using, but I've been posting in both till it's sorted out.

I gotta say I don't exactly agree with you on some things Ward.
I think a lot of the book is better, but I don't think everything is better. There are a good few magic items that I am more than willing to use competitively, but there quite a few that just seem to be absolute pants. I wouldn't dare touch them. I think it's a bit better than 50/50, which is a good bit better than the last book.
The shroud of dripping death would be superb against knights(the attacks occur before anything else in the combat phase from my reading of it), especially dark elf ones, and the canner of under-empire is comparable.

I am glad the engineers are less good, but I still think I'm going to take one, although it may get replaced by a second priest.
Assassins on the other hand seem to me to still not be worth it. I'd love to hear what kind of uses you've found for them, as I haven't seen any.

Yeah, stormvermin are better, but they're still a bit crap in my opinion. I just don't see why I should take them, as any role I want them to fulfil in the army can be done better by something else. And they're awful at pushing the bell, point for point against clanrats.

Do you think the abom needs some support in case of fluffed attacks, or was that just bad luck?
It seems to me that you wouldn't really want to have the doomwheel in combat all the time, as it's almost as useful just firing at the nearest enemy unit.

[Warppaw]

I almost can't believe that this thread is still around. Four years old and still going.

My army book, (and army), is still in the mail, so for now all I have to go on are rumors and other peoples opinions.

Quote

The fluff isn't as in depth

Have any of the army books been in-depth on fluff? There are alternatives from WFRP like Book of the Rat and Children of the Horned Rat available.

Couple of questions off of the top of my head;

-With the drop in points, how many clanrats do you use in a unit? Is it worth the extra 4,5 OCR to go from 25 to 30 and get a higher chance of outnumbering?

-Are spears now a more viable option? The attacks are still weak, but now at half prize, are they worth it?

-Is there any point in buying a musician for the slave unit with the new 'exploding' rule?

-When and why would you use a Warlord?

[Ward.]

Originally Posted by bert n ernie

And yet it's found right here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=225072&page=9

I'm not sure which people will end up using, but I've been posting in both till it's sorted out.

I might have to check that thread out.

Originally Posted by bert n ernie

Assassins on the other hand seem to me to still not be worth it. I'd love to hear what kind of uses you've found for them, as I haven't seen any.

They're still largely useless, apart form being used against high elf players and bomber runs on hydras. The 4+ ward save, in an era where 4+ ward saves are being phased out might make them a replacement for a chieftain if you're trying to dodge a poor comp score at a tournament.

Originally Posted by bert n ernie

Yeah, stormvermin are better, but they're still a bit crap in my opinion. I just don't see why I should take them, as any role I want them to fulfil in the army can be done better by something else. And they're awful at pushing the bell, point for point against clanrats.

Then we agree, WS4 and S4 halberd just made them an attractive option.

Originally Posted by bert n ernie

Do you think the abom needs some support in case of fluffed attacks, or was that just bad luck?

I imagine it was just bad luck, made up for in the next game by some phenomenally good luck. Although, on paper t5 5 wounds and regeneration looks pretty hardy it's WS3 and will be the target for most characters with great weapons and their mounts.
If you were going to support it I'd say a doomwheel, a second abomination or plaguemonks are the best choice.

Originally Posted by bert n ernie

It seems to me that you wouldn't really want to have the doomwheel in combat all the time, as it's almost as useful just firing at the nearest enemy unit.

I see that as just being gravy it's number of shots isn't high enough to be shooting at infantry but being able to shoot in combat makes me think it'd be best used against hydras and ogre sized things.
Charge>shoot>impact hits>combat should mangle most monstrous creatures.

Originally Posted by Warppaw

I almost can't believe that this thread is still around. Four years old and still going.

Technically the council of thirteen thread was started while warseer was still called portent, so it'd be older then four years.

Originally Posted by Warppaw

Have any of the army books been in-depth on fluff? There are alternatives from WFRP like Book of the Rat and Children of the Horned Rat available.

I have them and to be honest they didn't do it for me either, although the new book does have some interesting hints towards master mouldars harvesting growth hormones from slaves to supersize their rat ogres.

Originally Posted by Warppaw

Couple of questions off of the top of my head;

-With the drop in points, how many clanrats do you use in a unit? Is it worth the extra 4,5 OCR to go from 25 to 30 and get a higher chance of outnumbering?[/quote]
Especially with the points drop I go 30 strong at a minimum, clanrats should never come in groups smaller then 30 (true in the 6th edition book also). The benefits of having to loose 11 models before the rank and leadership bonus is affected is too much to overlook now that so many units have multiple attacks and better shooting.
eg, With just 25 models the first panic check will be taken at leadership 7 after the first turns shooting kills, with thirty it will be taken on turn twos shooting step with leadership 8.

Originally Posted by Warppaw

-Are spears now a more viable option? The attacks are still weak, but now at half prize, are they worth it?

No, the loss of the parry bonus, especially against things like plaguemonks isn't worth the extra 5 attacks.

Originally Posted by Warppaw

-Is there any point in buying a musician for the slave unit with the new 'exploding' rule?

Yes, +1 to rally a fleeing unit is a definite bonus, if they're in range of a grey seer they're rallying on 8 (and now that the bell makes it's unit unbreakable and has effects that buff it's unit in combat you really do want to charge things with it).

Originally Posted by Warppaw

-When and why would you use a Warlord?

You wouldn't, if you wanted some extra umph in your plaguemonks or rat ogres it wouldn't be a bad idea to whack him on the bonbreaker mounts. 5 S5 ws4 attacks, extra armor and no more fear problems for clanrats is worth the 13 OCR.

[Warppaw]

Quote

Technically the council of thirteen thread was started while warseer was still called portent, so it'd be older then four years.

I remember. I held one of the seats at the end.

Quote

Quote

Originally Posted by Warppaw
-Is there any point in buying a musician for the slave unit with the new 'exploding' rule?

Yes, +1 to rally a fleeing unit is a definite bonus, if they're in range of a grey seer they're rallying on 8 (and now that the bell makes it's unit unbreakable and has effects that buff it's unit in combat you really do want to charge things with it).

But how often will you need to rally them? Now that they don't flee after breaking in combat I can only see three situations where they would flee.
-Failing panic test from shooting
-Failing a psychology test
-Fleeing voluntarily from a charge
In the first two they should benefit from the generals leadership, and the option of taking the charge and possible dealing d3+rank hits when the slaves break gives an interesting alternative to the third.
I still think that it's worth the points to give them the musician, just for the chance to deny my opponent the easy VP of the slaves fleeing the table.

Quote

Quote

Originally Posted by Warppaw
-When and why would you use a Warlord?

You wouldn't, if you wanted some extra umph in your plaguemonks or rat ogres it wouldn't be a bad idea to whack him on the bonbreaker mounts. 5 S5 ws4 attacks, extra armor and no more fear problems for clanrats is worth the 13 OCR.

The bonebreaker mount in a unit of clanrats or plague monks would make it possible to pick him out for shooting.

Unless the rules for magic change in the eight edition, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Grey Seers.

[Ward.]

Originally Posted by Warppaw

But how often will you need to rally them? Now that they don't flee after breaking in combat I can only see three situations where they would flee.
-Failing panic test from shooting
-Failing a psychology test
-Fleeing voluntarily from a charge
In the first two they should benefit from the generals leadership, and the option of taking the charge and possible dealing d3+rank hits when the slaves break gives an interesting alternative to the third.
I still think that it's worth the points to give them the musician, just for the chance to deny my opponent the easy VP of the slaves fleeing the table.

There's also winning drawn combat with skirmishers and warmachine crews.
The amount of times I've rallied a fleeing slave unit on 3 or 8 makes me believe that musicians are worth it, rallying a unit to contest table quarters on the last turn is always a plus as well.
Maybe if I'm really stint for points I might only take the musician in units that aren't going to be placed any where near the general.

Originally Posted by Warppaw

The bonebreaker mount in a unit of clanrats or plague monks would make it possible to pick him out for shooting.

Unless the rules for magic change in the eight edition, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Grey Seers.

In that case the storm banner and better targets (abom and doomwheel come to mind) should keep him safe, not that I' going to take a warlord but his T5 mount absorbing half the shots that do come his way isn't a bad thing either.

[Hrokka `Eadsplitter]

Just have to ask: what is this thread about?? It sounds like half-private club for Skaven
Or is it just a tactic page with a fancy name??
Plz answer.

[Lupinbell]

Kinda both TBH.
We Skaven are like that, makes it harder to guess our true intentions.

<-<
>->

[bert n ernie]

It was the tactica thread for years up until the point that someone didn't realise it was here and started up a new tactica thread for the new skaven in Fantasy Tactics.

The other one seems a bit wasteful to me, but it's the only one others are posting in, so I'm still posting in it.

Is it worth still discussing tactica here?

[ZeroTwentythree]

Originally Posted by bert n ernie

Is it worth still discussing tactica here?

Yes.



Re: Muscians in slaves. They're 2 points. Why wouldn't you take them for the tie-breaking and +1 to rally after blowing terror/panic or fleeing from combat?