Thoughts on Daemonhunters builds?

[hendybadger]

I am just starting my second 40K force. Daemonhunters.
But what to do with them?
I have come up with 4 different builds and wondered what people think of each.

1) Pure DH. Inqs, Assassins and ISTs
2) Pure GK. Just Grey Knights and GK vehicles
3) GK + DH. Mainly Grey Knights with 1 Inq, Assassins and maybe 1 IST squad.
4) DH + GK Mainly Inq, Assassins, ISTs and a couple of GK units.

Thoughts, comments and ideas?

Thanks in advance

[polymphus]

Storm Troopers are woefully underpowered I'm afraid. Pure GK with an Inquisitor and an assassin could work well, but stay away from storm troopers.

[KingDeath]

Small stormtrooper squads are usefull if you give em two meltas and a rhino.
Among the best anti armour defence a pure Daemon Hunters army can get.

[Inquisitor_Tolheim]

Of the four posted, GK+DH is going to be your best bet. Make sure to put some Anti-Armor into your list, with how mechanized 5th edition is a DH player who doesn't gear a few units for Anti-Tank duty is going to get very sad very fast.

[mdauben]

Originally Posted by polymphus

Storm Troopers are woefully underpowered I'm afraid. Pure GK with an Inquisitor and an assassin could work well, but stay away from storm troopers.

I have to disagree. IST squads (in Rhino's) give a DH force much needed mobility, anti-armor firepower (albeit short ranged), and (relatively) inexpensive scoring units.

IMO a DH force is weaker without IST, not stronger.

[hendybadger]

And the Kasrkin models look good aswell

[Aubec le noir]

my preference goes to the n° 2 but n°3 is working better against majority of foes
Aubec

[hendybadger]

Could 2 work as well with expirience?

[Flypaper]

Only if you take 2+ Land Raiders, to be honest. Otherwise, you just don't have any ability to take out transports at range and are almost useless against mechanised armies with the ability to redeploy around you.

[hendybadger]

LRs would be a definate with build 2

[Grand Master Raziel]

Originally Posted by hendybadger

1) Pure DH. Inqs, Assassins and ISTs
2) Pure GK. Just Grey Knights and GK vehicles
3) GK + DH. Mainly Grey Knights with 1 Inq, Assassins and maybe 1 IST squad.
4) DH + GK Mainly Inq, Assassins, ISTs and a couple of GK units.

Build 1 won't get you very far with just Codex: Daemonhunters. You'll only be able to take 1 HQ, you'll only have 1 type of Troops, no Fast Attack, and no Heavy Support worth taking - the Orbital Strike might as well be a 60-80pt tax for how useful it actually is. I've actually killed more of my own stuff with that than opponent's stuff. Anyway, if you pair up the Inquisitoral stuff with some inducted IG or allies Space Marines, you can make a semi-decent army of it, but by itself it's just hopeless.

Build 2 at least gives you a pretty complete army list to work with, but it's generally considered one of the more difficult armies to do well with. Everything is expensive, and you'll generally struggle against heavy vehicles. On the other hand, there's a guy over on Bolter & Chainsword who swears by an army consisting of 3 squads of GKs and 3 Land Raiders, but that army seems like it's a bit dull, even if it is effective.

Builds 3 and 4 are generally the way to go for a semi-effective army. A mix of GKs and Inquisitorial stuff complement each other fairly nicely. GKs will do most of the heavy lifting, but ISTs play some valuable roles - mobility (when mounted in Rhinos or Chimeras), relatively inexpensive objective holding, can tote teleport homers for you, you can kit them up with plasma guns and meltaguns to send them after hard targets that your GK guns can't do much against. Heck, in this edition you can even have GKs commandeer their tracks and ride around - not something I've ever done, but at least it's an option. It also grants you a fun variety of stuff to play with - GKs, GK Terminators, Inquisitors, Assassins, ISTs with Rhinos, DCAs, maybe a Land Raider or some Dreadnoughts. Looks very striking on the table if well painted.

The only thing I'd steer you away from is trying to kit up an Inquisitor Lord and his retinue for close combat. That's just an expensive and inefficient proposition. All the weapons you can buy for the Inqy Lord are priced for a S4 T4 wielder, but the only such wielders are GK characters whose default weapon, at minimum, is a S6 power weapon (who in their right mind would replace that?). What's more, you need specific retinue members to jack up the Lord's attributes to something worth fielding, and then you have to upgrade the members of the retinue, because otherwise you're looking at backing up your Inqy Lord with henchmonkeys who are T3 and generally with 6+ saves. Finally, the power fist nerf makes Combat Servitors suck. So, the close combat Inqy Lord and retinue is generally an exercise in futility. You're better off with 3 Gun Servitors (I generally use 2 HBs and 1 PC), in which case you can either keep the Lord stripped down and cheap (I used to give him Hammerhand in case he actually needed to fight, but not much else), or you could slap a psycannon on him to let him lay down fire, too. Just a thought.

[hendybadger]

Sounds like a good plan on the Inq. Are PAGKs definatly allowed to hi-jack a IST Rhino in game?

[Grand Master Raziel]

Yes, that's just basic 5th edition rules for you. I wouldn't do that very often, though. Basically, you have very little reason to have any GK squads footslogging it. You're not likely to be able to afford more than 3 PAGK squads unless you're keeping them really small, so there's very little reason not to field your PAGKs as Teleport Attack Squads, unless you want something to sit on a home objective, in which case you might want a smallish squad with a pair of psycannons. Don't forget about the Shrouding!

Also, here's a nasty little combo for you: a Callidus Assassin and a trio of Death Cult Assassins. The DCAs infiltrate as close as they can to a unit you want dead. Presumably, you can't get them in charge range by themselves, but you can probably get them within 18" of that unit by using terrain. You then use the Callidus' Whisper In Your Ear ability to move the enemy unit 6" closer to the DCAs. That unit is now subject to a first turn charge. Even if they shoot at the DCAs, each one is an independant unit, so they're only likely to kill one, at best. It's so nasty, I stopped doing it, because my regular opponents couldn't figure out a way to deal with it. Mind you, the downside is, in this edition, each DCA gives up a kill point in Annihilation missions, but it's still a fun gag to pull.

[hendybadger]

Sounds like a fun tactic but not something to be used often

[LonelyPath]

I tend to field #2 for the most part, it's a tough army to get to grips with to make it efficiemt, but it is a fun challenge. #3 opens things up a little with the inquisitor and assassin (I prefer the Vindicare, but that's my personal preferrence and nothing to do with in-game efficiency, but it's still a little limited. I have experiemented with taking a GK-heavy list with s couple of IST squads plus rhinos to allow for some mobility and it does work quite well, particularly to get the PAGK from A to B faster (and perhaps a little safer).

Callidus assassins are great roadblocks in combat and their abilities make them even more deadly. As for the Death Cult Assassins, I find them far to expensive and to easy to kill off in a game. Plus if it turns out to be Kill Points they give up KP with little effort on the opponents part.

[hendybadger]

2 and 3 seem to be the best builds. My first units so far are all GKs. But depending on how they play I may add an Inq, Assassin ans some ISTs

[Flypaper]

Quote

Sounds like a good plan on the Inq. Are PAGKs definatly allowed to hi-jack a IST Rhino in game?

I'm afraid not - the Grand Master's wrong on this one. The DH book expicitly forbids it in the "transport" rules on page 30, and specific codex rules trump the 5th Edition changes. On the other hand, it means we get to keep the old (superior) smoke launchers for the same reason.

[noirceuil]

Originally Posted by KingDeath

Small stormtrooper squads are usefull if you give em two meltas and a rhino.
Among the best anti armour defence a pure Daemon Hunters army can get.

I have to agree. I've played DH. In smaller point games where a LR is just points-prohibitive, 5-model IST units with meltaguns work great as specialized tank hunter units. If possible try to make sure the game table has plenty of terrain to assist keep these units alive long enough to spend their lives taking out the tank or dread they were tasked with destroying

[noirceuil]

Originally Posted by hendybadger

I am just starting my second 40K force. Daemonhunters.
But what to do with them?
I have come up with 4 different builds and wondered what people think of each.

1) Pure DH. Inqs, Assassins and ISTs

I'm not really sure I understand *how* this option differs from option 3 or option 4, unless you define option 1 as an army list composed soley of an IL, Temple assassin, DCAs, possible Elite inquisitor, with Troop slots filled exclusively by IST units. You didn't indicate whether you're using Allies, so if you field this option without any Allies, then it essentially has all the drawbacks of a DH list without the powerful close-combat attribute contributed by GK units. (I'm not convinced on how effective Daemonhosts are, therefore don't have any practical knowledge/experience with running a Radical DH list)

If you meant to include Allies, then I suggest you review that section of the DH codex. Otherwise, option 1 isn't tactically sound if you plan on building a list to potentially take on all-comers.

Originally Posted by hendybadger

2) Pure GK. Just Grey Knights and GK vehicles

According to online articles regarding The Way of the Water Warrior, this is an effective build. However, I've had limited success with it. According to the above article, you can mount GK units inside LRs and run a mobile infantry type force. Use the terrain to screen LRs and snipe with TL LCs on the LR sponsons. When ready, unload the GK units from LRs to sweep up units decimated by the LR sniping.

I can't dispute the effectiveness when it's supported by high win count, but I personally haven't been able to win with a Pure GK force.

Based on my experience and the caliber and types of opponents I've faced, the LRs would simply be popped like cans of tuna and the disembarking GK units would be shredding by metalstorms.

But I haven't collected, built, and painted the requisite LRs yet to test the above tactics.

You're welcome to test it, though

Originally Posted by hendybadger

3) GK + DH. Mainly Grey Knights with 1 Inq, Assassins and maybe 1 IST squad.

This option is the closest to the configuration/build I've played and been moderately successful with on the table top.

This typically includes a GK hero in the HQ slot with an Elite inquisitor to unlock the assassins. The inquisitor is allotted the minimum number of points to free up the maximum for the GK elements and help make the IST units more viable in their multi-purpose support roles.

For me this usually included at least 1 (if not 2) FA units composed of GKiPA and a combination of dreadnoughts and LRs to provide the only HS options from the codex. IMHO, Orbital Strike option is a waste of points better used to bolster more effective units.

The wargear/size of unit/and unit selection depends on the total points being played, the type of army I'll be facing, and the type of player I'll be opposing.

In my opinion, this is probably the most balanced DH list that can be fielded without bringing in Allies.

The list is still much slower than builds possible in other codices, and will never come close to the long-range anti-armour capabilities possible in other codices; but for the DH codex, it's probably the easiest to play(and win with) and the most balanced.

Test it out for yourself. Ask around. You decide.

Originally Posted by hendybadger

4) DH + GK Mainly Inq, Assassins, ISTs and a couple of GK units.

I'm not sure I understand how this option can be distinguished from option 3, unless you mean to fill the HQ slot with IL and fill the Troop slots with IST exclusively, with GK elements in a support role. (i.e. FA units of GKiPA + an Elite unit of GKTs)

If you plan to run this, you're almost better off running an IG army with DH allies. (i.e. run IG army with IL, assassin, and a unit of GKiPA) The IG stormtroopers are much better than the current IST and you have access to better AT units from the IG codex.

Of course this is just MHO.

Originally Posted by hendybadger

Thoughts, comments and ideas?

Thanks in advance

Summation:
Option 1 would be fun to play from a thematic point of view, but not the strongest build IMHO.

Option 2 would also be very thematic in terms of fielding a shiny army of knights on the table. They will look good and if you manage to win with them, you will have beaten the odds! I wouldn't recommend it, however; unless you're looking for a challenge.

Option 3 is (obviously) my choice for a somewhat balanced list composed entirely from elements available in the codex. It has limited long-range AT capability, but IST units with short-range special weapons can make up the difference if coordinated well. You keep the specialized CC/move + shoot capacity of the GKs and incorporate the wildcard elements of the assassins and the Inquisitor if equipped with certain wargear designed for the appointed task.

Option 4 seems (to me) to be a way of imposing a handicap on yourself by changing the ratio of GK to IST to favour IST. If you mount them in rhinos and max them out to 8-10 models per unit it could result in a very impressive mobile infantry force but against most SM-equivalent forces, they would not hold up well.

As a disclaimer, remember everything above is based on my rather limited playing experience overall, which has however been compiled while exclusively playing the DH army.

Hope this helps.

[hendybadger]

Thanks for that. A very helpful summary.
I dont want to include allies so 2 and 3 seem to be what to look at.
I may start with a small army (2) and expand into 3