C:DH - Odd usage of Holocaust

[DoctorTom]

Originally Posted by Stucorb

If the models were not present at the beginning of the assault phase then they cannot be hit right?

With Holocaust they can. With Holocaust you put the Ordnance template out and anything under it (friendly or enemy) is hit with the right dice roll. This will even affect models in a unit that's not engaged with the enemy, as long as he's under the template. All that would matter (if you grant that the power can be used in the first place) is that the models are on the board before I1.

[cuda1179]

THis could also happen with an eversor assassin, kind of. If the transport is destroyed, and the Eversore looses his last wound, he could potentially kill a few of the transported unit with his "death blast" special rule.

[Coredump]

Nice argument Koyori.

Here is my counter assertion.

The rules say if you destroy all of the enemy, you "win automatically". It does not say you must wait until after I1 to determine that. In fact, I assert that, since it happens 'automatically' that precludes the rest of the steps.
So if on I5 you have killed/destroy the other side, you have 'won' the combat, and you move on from there.

[solkan]

Counter-counter example of an unsettled combat:

Kharne the Betrayer and Lucius are fighting a single marine. Lucius kills the last guy. Kharne's attacks have a 2 in 36 chance for Kharne to miss then fail to wound Lucius and then suffer a wound from Lucius's armor per attack. So Khorne's favorite Team Killer could go for the tie.

The combat might be an automatic win when the last enemy model dies, but the results aren't settled until everyone's had a chance to attack. Besides that, ending the combat early would still be breaking the rule that every model engaged in combat must attack if it able to do so, and page 37 says that they can even if their enemy is dead.

[IJW]

Originally Posted by solkan

Besides that, ending the combat early would still be breaking the rule that every model engaged in combat must attack if it able to do so, and page 37 says that they can even if their enemy is dead.

"if able to do so" is the important part.

If there are no enemy models left in the combat, is the model able to attack any enemy models? No.

Like Coredump says, the combat ended as soon as the last enemy model in the combat died. In your example Kharne wouldn't roll anything because there are no models for him to roll anything against.

[Kyrolon]

Originally Posted by Coredump

Nice argument Koyori.

Here is my counter assertion.

The rules say if you destroy all of the enemy, you "win automatically". It does not say you must wait until after I1 to determine that. In fact, I assert that, since it happens 'automatically' that precludes the rest of the steps.
So if on I5 you have killed/destroy the other side, you have 'won' the combat, and you move on from there.

The only problem I have with your counter arguement, Coredump, is that you are equating automatically with immediately. I'm not sure how you make that leap. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the part about winning automatically also come from the section on combat resolution? We don't do combat resolution after each initiative step. It is done after all attacks have been made.

Regarding the assertion that the combat would end because there are no eligible targets, this would be true for normal HTH attacks, and it's why this doesn't normally come up. Even something like an I1 deamon weapon (which could hurt its user) wouldn't need to swing because it has no targets left. In the case under discussion though, there is a unit available to target with holocaust. Nothing in its description states it only affects or targets engaged models.

Taking all of this into consideration, I think holocaust truly forms a nearly unique exception to the normal rules (Yriel being a less likely second one).

[grissom2006]

You also don't have combat resolution against a vehicle.

[Kyrolon]

Originally Posted by grissom2006

You also don't have combat resolution against a vehicle.

That doesn't remove the step from the phase though. We get to combat resolution, check results, and find we don't need to do anything because it is a vehicle. You don't skip it altogether. Even if you did there is still nothing saying that the assault phase ends immediately upon the destruction of the vehicle. Coredump's argument came very close, but I am not convinced that "automatcally" equates to immediately.