40k skirmish using LotR system as basis

[Hoshi No Koe]

Some might remember this little project of mine from before Portent was down. While it was gone I've continued working on the system and have refined and changed a considerable amount of things. Mainly how ranged weapons work needed and probably still needs a lot of tweaking.
The idea behind using the LotR system as a basis with 40K models, is to recreate the heroic feel that LotR represents so well. My inspiration came from the heroic acts described in the various 40k novels and reenact them in squad based combat.
I've been typing up what I came up with gradually and I will add more as I get to work and test the rules.

The thread is intended for anyone who sees interest in this system and would like to help me out by testing it themselves or coming up with rules suggestions, feedback and new troop types.

Edit:
Here's a link to a nicer format of the rules made by Forgotmytea:
http://forgotmytea.tripod.com/id60.html

I can also E-mail the most up to date version on a regular basis as I make changes and additions if you PM me your E-mail. These will often be more up to date than the rules posted here as I'll be working in that document usually and it's a bit of a hassle to edit the posts below each time changes are made.
Here goes:

[Hoshi No Koe]

Warhammer 40k using LotR system

The basic mechanics of the “Lotr system” apply. I will mostly write the changes in rules from the original rules.

Running and charging:
To offset the higher power of the 40K weaponry somewhat, models on foot are allowed to run. A model that is running may add half his normal movement distance (rounding down), to his move.
Running models may not fire weapons and may only run over open ground, models may not run through difficult terrain. Running models may not cross obstacles or climb.
When a model is charging he may move the same distance for running. Note that a model that runs in order to charge will not be able to fire pistols or throw grenades while they charge.
Models can only run if walking. Models that are using any type of special movement (Jump packs, bikes…) may not run.

Jump moves:

Jump moves ignore terrain and obstacles. If a jump moving model ends its movement in an area of difficult terrain, roll a D6, on a roll of one the model suffers a wound. Might points may be used to alter this roll.

Target priority:
A model wishing to shoot at a model that is in LoS but is not the nearest to him has to pass a Courage test.
Units may not shoot through enemy control zones. If a shot would pass through the control zone of a model, that model is the target instead. This does not apply when shooting at vehicles or monstrous creatures behind other models except other vehicles or monstrous creatures .

Weapon types:

Close combat weapons:
Models armed with two close combat weapons or a close combat weapon and a pistol gain +1 to their Fight value. Only one close combat weapon or a pistol on their own won’t grant any benefits in combat.

Rapid fire weapons:
Rapid fire weapons can fire in several different ways. A model standing still can fire once up to the weapons maximum range or twice up to 6”.
A model can also move up to half its movement rate and fire its weapon once at up to 12” or once at its maximum range at -1 to hit or twice at up to 6”.
Models that move more than half their movement may not fire rapid fire weapons.

Pistols:
Pistols work like throwing weapons in the LotR book when shooting at 6”. Pistols may shoot once at full range when moving at their normal movement value but shoot in the shooting phase as normal when firing at a distance more than 6”. Pistols count as a close combat weapon.

Assault weapons:
Models armed with assault weapons can fire when moving at their normal movement rate.

Heavy weapons:
Models armed with heavy weapons may not move at all when firing their weapons but can always shoot up to their max range.

Grenades:
Grenades can be thrown up to 6” when moving at the normal movement rate and are thrown in the movement phase. Grenades use the small blast template.

Weapons stats:
Weapons use the same stats as in LotR but have two additional stats. The AP value and number of shots.
The AP value determines the amount of points that are knocked off from the target’s defence value granted by armour.
For example a Space marine shoots his Heavy bolter which has an AP value of 1 at a Chaos space marine which has a defence value of 4(7). The Chaos space marine’s actual defence is 7 of which 3 points are granted by his power armour. The value of four is his natural defence value, meaning his defence value cannot be brought down to lower than 4. the carbine knocks of 1 point of defence granted by the power armour meaning the carbine’s strength of 5 is compared to a defence value of 6 instead of 7.

The second new stat is noted behind the weapon’s type, and shows how many shots the weapon can fire. Ex: a meltagun is assault 1, meaning it can fire one shot when allowed to shoot. A Heavy bolter is heavy 3 meaning it can fire up to three times when allowed to fire.

Note: You can’t shoot more than one weapon in any given turn. So you won’t be able to lob a grenade during your movement phase and fire another weapon in the shooting phase.

Multiple shot weapons:
Multiple shot weapons follow a slightly different procedure than one shot weapons when determining who is shot at.
Choose your target, checking for LoS and target priority as needed. Roll to hit as normal for all the shots that you are allowed to fire. The owning player must allocate each hit to models within 3” starting by allocating the first hit to target. No model can take two hits from a multiple shot weapon unless all friendly models (if any) within 3” of the target have been allocated at least one hit.

Pinning weapons:
If a model is hit by a pinning weapon but not killed, he must immediately pass a courage test or be pinned.
If a model is killed by a pinning weapon, all friendly models within 3” of the victim must take a courage test or be knocked to the ground as they hit the deck.

Pinning:
A model that is pinned is immediately knocked to the ground following the rules in the LotR SBG rulesbook.

Cover:
Unlike in LotR, cover doesn’t work entirely like obstructing obstacles. Instead models in cover have a cover save like in 40k. The only real difference is that there are different levels of protection afforded by different types of cover. The rationale is that wood or stone will stop an arrow just as well, it’s different when it comes to a bolter round. The cover values are therefore the same as in 40k (Woods 5+, ruins 4+, bunkers 3+ …etc)

High strength weapons:
Weapons that have a strength value double to a model’s natural defence value will cause two wounds instead of one.

[Hoshi No Koe]

Tau

Special rules:

Jetpacks:
Models equipped with jet-packs move like infantry. They may either move at their normal rate or run as make a 6” jump move. Jetpacks enable the model to immediately make a second move after shooting in the shooting phase. This second move is always a 6” jump move. If the model doesn’t shoot and isn’t engaged in a combat it can still use the second jump.

Fire warrior Shas’La 13pts (6pts basic, 7pts rifle)
F2/4+ S3 D3(5) A1 W1 C3
Weapons: Pulse rifle
Options: May exchange Pulse rifle for a Pulse carbine. May be equipped with photon grenades at +3pts per model.

Fire warrior Shas’ui 50pts
F3/4+ S3 D3(5) A2 W1 C4
M:2 W:1 F:1
Weapons: Pulse carbine or pulse rifle.
Options: markerlight, photon grenade at +3pts

Pathfinder Shas’La 15pts
F2/4+ S3 D3(5) A1 W1 C3
Weapons: Pulse carbine and Markerlight
Options: May exchange Pulse rifle for a Pulse carbine. May be equipped with photon grenades at +3pts per model

Gun Drone 18pts
F2/5+ S3 D3(5) A1 W1 C1
Weapons: Twin-linked Pulse Carbine
Special: Jump packs

Ethereal 70pts
F4 S3 D3 A2 W2 C6
M:2 W:3 F:2
Weapons:2 hand weapons or honour blade (+5pts)
Special:
Inspiring presence (All Tau within 6” become fearless and pass all courage tests.
The price of failure (all Tau models on the table may re-roll any courage tests they have to take as long as the Ethereal is alive. If the Tau Ethereal is killed all Tau models have to take a Courage test in their next movement phase if they are unengaged.)

Kroot warrior 14pts
F4(5)/4+ S4 D3 A1 W1 C3
Weapons: Kroot rifle (counts as 2 Close combat weapons)
Special: Move through woods (no movement penalty when moving through woodland terrain), Woods cover(Kroot have a 4+ cover when in woods)

Kroot shaper 60pts
F4(5)/4+ S4 D3 A3 W3 C4
M:2 W:1 F:1
Weapons: Kroot rifle
Special: Move through woods (no movement penalty when moving through woodland terrain), Woods cover(Kroot have a 4+ cover when in woods)

Kroot hound 10pts
F4(5)/4+ S4 D3 A1 W1 C3
Weapons: fangs and claws (counts as 2 close combat weapons)
Special: Move through woods (no movement penalty when moving through woodland terrain), Woods cover(Kroot have a 4+ cover when in woods)
Beasts (move 10”)

Weapon and wargear list:

Pulse rifle: R30” S5 Ap- rapid fire
Pulse carbine: R18” S5 Ap- assault 1, pinning
Honour blade: two handed hand weapon, adds +2 to S
Kroot rifle: R24” S4 Ap- rapid fire, counts as 2 close combat weapons in combat.
Photon grenades: R6” S- Ap- grenade (any model hit is pinned on a roll of 3+)

Markerlight: R36” S- Ap-.
Special: Markerlights don’t do any damage on their own. Instead, keep track of which enemy models are hit by a markerlight. Every markerlight hit on an enemy model will grant special benefits to one other Tau model shooting at the model.
-No target priority tests are needed provided the target is within range and line of sight.
-He gains a +1 to hit when shooting. This effect is cumulative for every Markerlight hit on that model but the roll to hit can never be increased to better than 2+.
-The model’s cover save is reduced by one for each hit. This is cumulative.
-If a model is hit by a weapon that causes pinning his courage is reduced by one for every markerlight. If the model is killed by a weapon that causes pinning while markerlighted, all models required to take a pinning test as a result of this are at -1 to their courage for each markerlight the model was hit with.
Alternatively, markerlight hits may be used to launch seeker missiles. Seeker missiles do not require line of sight and have infinite range. Seeker missiles will always hit on a 2+. Additional markerlight hits may be used to reduce the target’s cover save.
Seeker missile: R- S8 Ap3 special

Orks

Ork boy 11pts
F4/5+ S3 D4 A2 W1 C3
Weapons: Either a shoota at +2pts or Slugga and Choppa at +4pts
Up to one in 7 Orks may be equipped with a special weapon. Either a Big shoota at +12pts, a burna at +8pts or Rokkit launcha at +6pts
Special: Mob rule (Orks add +1 to their C value for every Ork within 6”)

Ork Nob 45pts
F4/5+ S4 D4 A3 W2 C3
M:2 W:1 F:1
Weapons: Shoota +2pts, Slugga +2pts, Choppa +2pts, Rokkit Launcha +6pts, Big Shoota +12pts, Power klaw +20pts
Options: Big horns/Iron gob (+2pts), Bosspole (+3pts), ‘eavy armour (+10pts), Frag stikkbombz (+1pts).

Grots 4pts
F4/5+ S2 D2 A1 W1 C2
Weapons: grot blasta
Special: living shield(Hits on an Ork can be allocated to a grot in base contact and in the path of the shot on a roll of 4+ on a D6)
Fodder(Orks don’t have to take courage tests due to Grot casualties and grots do not count towards the 50% casualty limit before being required to take courage tests).

Weapon list:
Shoota: R24” S4 Ap- rapid fire
Slugga: R12”S4 Ap- pistol
Big shoota: R36” S5 Ap1 assault 3
Burna: R template S4 Ap1 Assault 1, can also be used in CC and counts as a two handed weapon with Ap4
Rokkit Launcha: R24” S8 Ap3 Assault 1
Grot blasta: R12” S3 Ap- Assault 1
Choppa: single handed hand weapon with Ap1
Power klaw: single handed CC weapon, doubles strength value but rolls for determining who wins the fight are at -1.
Frag stikkbombz: R6" S3 Ap- grenade blast

Equipment list:
Big horns/Iron gob: add +1 to C value
Bosspole: Stand fast up to 12”
‘eavy armour: +2 D


Space Marines

Space marine 20pts
F4/3+ S4 D4(7) A1 W1 C4
Weapons: Bolter
Options: Frag grenades (+2pts), one in 5 space marines may be armed with either a Plasma gun (10pts), Melta gun (10pts) , flamer (6pts), Missile Laucher (15pts), Heavy bolter (+5pts).
Special: "And they shall know no fear" (Space marines don't need to take courage tests for terror or being outnumbered).

Veteran sergeant 60pts
F4/3+ S4 D4(7) A2 W1 C4
M:2 W:1 F:1
Weapons: Bolter or bolt pistol and chainsword
Options: Frag grenades (+2pts), Power sword (+10pts), Plasma pistol (+10pts), Power fist (+15pts)
Special: "And they shall know no fear" (Space marines don't need to take courage tests for terror or being outnumbered).

Weapons list:
Bolter: R24" S4 Ap1 rapid fire
Bolt pistol:R24" S4 Ap1 pistol
Plasma Gun: R24" S7 Ap4 rapid fire
Melta gun: R12" S8 Ap4 assault 1
Missile Launcher: Frag R48" S3 Ap- Heavy 1 blast
Krak R48" S8 Ap3 Heavy 1
Heavy Bolter: R36" S5 Ap2 Heavy 3
Frag grenades R6" S3 Ap- grenade blast
Chaos Space marines

Chaos space marine 20pts
F4/3+ S4 D4(7) A1 W1 C5
Weapons: Bolter or bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Options: Frag grenades (+3pts), Mark of Chaos Undivided (re-roll all courage tests) 2pts. One in 5 space marines may be armed with either a Plasma gun (10pts), Melta gun (10pts) , flamer (6pts), Plasma pistol (+10pts).
One in 5 space marines may be armed with either a Plasma gun (10pts), Melta gun (10pts), flamer (6pts), Plasma pistol (+10pts), Missile Laucher (15pts), Heavy bolter (+5pts), Autocannon +10pts.
Veteran skills:
You may only take up to one veteran skill if you take a mark of Chaos Undivided.
Furious Charge (+1S on charge) +3pts, Move through cover(count difficult terrain as open terrain)+3 pts.

Aspiring Champion 60pts
F4/3+ S4 D4(7) A2 W1 C4
M:2 W:1 F:1
Weapons: Bolter or bolt pistol and chainsword, The model may shoot either of the weapons in his shooting phase but not both) +10pts, Frag grenades (+3pts), Power sword (+10pts), Plasma pistol (+10pts), Power fist (+15pts), Pair of lightning claws +20pts, Combi-Melta (Bolter combined with a one-shot meltagun.
Iron warriors may take a servo-arm (counts as an extra attack made with the powerfist rules) +20pts.
Options:
Veteran skills:
You may only take up to one veteran skill if you take a mark of Chaos Undivided.
Furious Charge (+1S on charge) +10pts, Move through cover(count difficult terrain as open terrain) +6pts.
Daemonic gifts:
Daemonic strength (+1 S) +15pts, Daemonic speed (may move 8”) 5pts, Daemonic flight (move 10” and ignore difficult terrain. If landing in difficult terrain roll a d6, on a roll of 1 the model suffers a hit equal to their defense value. Models with flight may also choose to move like infantry), Daemonic toughness (+1 D) 10pts, Daemonic resilience (+1 W) +10pts, Daemonic aura (+2 F)+10pts, Daemonic mutation (+1A) +15pts.


Weapons list:
Bolter: R24" S4 Ap1 rapid fire
Bolt pistol:R8" S4 Ap1 pistol
Plasma Gun: R24" S7 Ap4 rapid fire, gets hot (On a roll of 1 to hit, the model suffers a S4 hit)
Plasma pistol: R 8” S7 AP4 pistol, gets hot (On a roll of 1 to hit, the model suffers a S4 hit)
Melta gun: R12" S8 Ap4 assault 1
Missile Launcher: Frag R48" S3 Ap- Heavy 1 blast
Krak R48" S8 Ap3 Heavy 1
Heavy Bolter: R36" S5 Ap2 Heavy 3
Autocannon: R48: S7 Ap2 Heavy 2
Frag grenades R6" S3 Ap- grenade

Powerfist: Single handed CC weapon, doubles strength value but rolls for determining who wins the fight are at -1 and damage rolls count as AP4.
Power sword: Single handed CC weapon, damage rolls count as AP4
Pair of lightning claws: Count as two close combat weapons, damage rolls get +1 to the roll and count as AP4.

[Hoshi No Koe]

I'll be playing a test game soon using the "between a rock and a hard place" scenario from the LotR rulesbook to re-enact a rescue mission involving Tau and Orks.

I'll use an ethereal, 4 FW with rifles and 4 FW with carbines to take the place of the dwarves in this scenario.

A Nob, 8 slugga boyz, 4 shoota boyz, 2 boyz with big shootas and 8 grots will take the place of the Orcs.

And 5 Kroot and 3 Kroot hounds will take the role of the elves in this scenario.

Edit:
Test game has been done. It worked okay. The Tau started on a raised ruin, surrounded by Orks. As the Orks weren't able to charge in the first turn the Tau were able to do some considerable damage with their opening salvo. They really needed to as the orks would be upon them next turn. The main group of orks that were in the path to the exit for the Ethereal took some damage in that round.
The orks proceeded to charge with most of their models at several points of the ruins. The Tau did quite well in the next couple of turns defending the ruins, while the kroot advanced to lend them help. The nob had been knocked down by a photon grenade and wasn't able to lead the charge immediately and took a wound from the approaching kroot's shooting and expending his point of fate in the process.
It was starting to look bad for the orks as they'd taken considerable casualties in the initial round and assaulting the ruins. The Ork's bad luck culminated with the nob's demise at the hands of the Ethereal.
Seeing a chance to make a break for it the Ethereal and the surviving Tau (which had also lost some of their numbers during the assault of the ruins) left the ruins to try to make it to the opposite table edge. The Ruins were starting to get overrun by greenskins, so it was a good time to do so. At the back of the ruins, 2 FW had made a good job of holding off a number of orks, but had moved into the ruins as the Orks at the back decided to ignore them and move onto the front of the ruins as there wasn't much left to intercept the Ethereal.
While this was going on the kroot, had been advancing steadily eschanging fire with the Orks armed with big shoota's. The kroot hounds had charged those early, but they had quickly been despatched by the orks receiving back-up from two other orks armed with shoota's.
Even with the Nob out of the picture, breaking cover proved to be a mistake as the brute efficiency of Orks in close combat became clear. Even though the greenskins had taken a beating at that point, they proved to be numerous enough to exact a heavy toll on the Ethereal's defenders. Most of them were cut down and in the end the Ethereal made it up to three quarters of the board with three kroot surrounding him, before finally being gunned down by a Big shoota Ork, who had fought his way through a Kroot and pouring fire into the fleeing band.

This was a fun game, which put me on the wrong footing early on. After witnessing how easily the Orks were gunned down initially, and seeing the Nob's demise fairly early on I thought I must've made a mistake somewhere. However, after seeing how brutal the Orks proved to be in combat I was proven wrong. I was fairly content with the result, though I took closer look at the Ork's stats, and compared them to stats of LotR troops and concluded I hadn't been too far off. I raised their basic cost by 1 point though.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

I'm sure someone tipped you off or you already know this, but...

The LOTR melee combat engine is the same as the one used in 40k 2nd edition.

[big squig]

Quote

The LOTR melee combat engine is the same as the one used in 40k 2nd edition.

umm...no it isn't

[Dravis]

Actually it is very simular to 2nd edition, but much better defined with some new aditions like trapped rules. In fact the LOTR rules play like an updated and refined W40K 2nd edition, like the cavalry rules.

I rather like these adaptions for LOTR, I always have a soft spot skermish rules, I might try out a few games when I have the chance. The Pistol rules are nice, better then the ones in 2nd edtion or in any other edtion, I can see the victor knocking the enemy down and pulling out his pistol.

Something to consider would be making armies good or evil as this has rule differences, like shooting into close combat, or make all the armies either good or evil.

[marineowar]

I have actually been thinking about doing this myself, thanx for doing all the hard work

A couple of things I thought of differently were
1) to make pistols like throwing weapons (i.e. move - shoot - finish move) and a range of 6-8" A model with a pistol and CCW just gets an extra attack. But then grenades need to work too. Maybe they could offer bonuses in combat, like frag grenades add +1 to roll to hit or something like that.
2) Rapid fire weapons, I was going to make these work similar to the 3rd edition rules: no move= 1 shot upto max range or 2 shots upto 12"; half move= 1 shot upto 12"; full move= no shot.

That was all really, not critisms as such, just ideas that I had kicking around for the same thing

marineowar

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Originally Posted by Dravis

Actually it is very simular to 2nd edition, but much better defined with some new aditions like trapped rules. In fact the LOTR rules play like an updated and refined W40K 2nd edition, like the cavalry rules.

I don't think there is any question that LOTR improved on 2nd edition's basic mechanics, I just find it interesting that GW used to denounce the old hth rules as unworkable and unwieldy, but then used them as the basis for a major release.

Quote

I rather like these adaptions for LOTR, I always have a soft spot skermish rules, I might try out a few games when I have the chance. The Pistol rules are nice, better then the ones in 2nd edtion or in any other edtion, I can see the victor knocking the enemy down and pulling out his pistol.

Wouldn't the pistol already be out of the holster? I know I'd draw mine ala Indiana Jones as soon as the nut began swinging a sword at me.

[Hoshi No Koe]

I've played a couple of 2nd ed games a long time ago, and from what I remember, the combat engine was nothing like LotR. In fact 2nd ed had almost exactly the same combat system as Necromunda except Necromunda became a little bit more detailed.

Now this is the feedback I like to see.
Marineowar, you bring up interesting points. I've been working on and off on these rules now for almost a year, and I think I've played about a dozen test games before I reworked the rules into what they are now.
I had exactly the same take as you on the pistols. Pistols and assault weapons were throwing weapons before. However, it became clear to me that it made them too powerful. I didn't use the smaller range back then but the problem was that they overmatched anything that shot in the shooting phase once in range. The rationale was that like in wh40k models should be able to shoot going into combat.
However, while playing more and more test games and games of LotR I realized that with the LotR system, any opponents within 6" of each other represented a melee in 40k. Making pistols shoot in the shooting phase as other weapons solved the problem of them being overpowered within "melee range" as I call it, in comparison to other weapons.
In LotR, throwing weapons have a strength of 3 which isn't as powerfull as the average S4 you encounter on 40k weapons. I also decided early on I didn't want to lower the strength of weaponry from 40k, LotR is mainly CC based and I didn't want this skirmish version of 40k to become too oriented on CC but offer a good mix of long range firefights, close range firefights and CC. The 12" range of pistols not having movement penalties, still make them a viable choice for closing on the ennemy and close range firefights as the charge range is 6" for most things here instead of 12" in 40k.
When they shot in the movement phase in the first draft, I knew there was a problem as Tau got the crap shot out of them by Orks as they were cut down by pistol fire before being able to shoot. I could have adjusted the points costs but I didn't think it right to have Orks outnumbered by Tau. Because of these things, I decided I only wanted grenades, Tau jetpack troops and eldar Jetbikes have the rules of throwing weapons because I also didn't want Jump pack troops with pistols able to take the same battlefield role of Crisis suits and Jetbikes.

However, I did want pistols to give an advantage in combat, as I didn't think it right a Shoota boy fought just as well as a slugga in combat. In the first draft, having two close combat weapons gave you a re-roll in combat like a banner. Although it worked okay I thought it didn't feel right and I wanted that rule to be reserved to pieces of special wargear (like banners) or special rules of certain units (chaplain's litanies). Having them grant an additional attack like in 40k proved to be too powerfull with the LotR system as the number of attacks also determines your chances of winning a combat. Orks with their 2 basic attacks are already brutal in combat as they should, however it is offset by their relatively low defense value. I tried Aun'shi with his original 4 attacks like in 40k and realized that as long he wasn't fighting anything with a higher fight value he was almost invincible in CC, especially as I wanted him to be able to use the shielding rule to represent his parrying skills. Throwing 8 dice in each combat he stayed alive for 5 or 6 turns while being surrounded and trapped by about 8 Orks until I decided to stop the game. the chances of rolling a 6 and automatically winning the fight as long as nothing had a better fight value was too high. That game however taught me to be reluctant in giving anything more than three attacks with this system (you'll notice that not even Aragorn has more than 3 attacks in LotR).
That's why I brought these rules into being for pistols in this skirmish system as it gives an advantage for actually killing an opponent in a fight without it enhancing the chance to win a fight too much(a veteran sergeant with a plasma pistol is still a force to be reckoned with mind you).

Allowing grenades to give an advantage in combat was something I played with as well, but realized it would make them too expensive in game terms as well as being too powerful. I also really wanted them to do damage as that's something I miss alot from the current 40k rules (although you assume the damage they do is represented by the advantage they give in combat). Working from the idea that in LotR the 6" range represented melee in 40k I relaized I could translate those advantages in the way they work. The ability of grenades ignoring cover still makes them one of the best ways to flush models out of cover. Photon grenades help prevent opponents getting into base contact which is quite representative of their 40k rules on a smaller scale. I'm thinking of allowing models in cover that have grenades thrown at them, have the choice of going prone to get a cover save which also further represents them keeping their heads down to avoid damage but in the process losing the advantage of being able to defend in while in cover. I'm dropping Frags to S2 and plasma to S3 though as they proved a bit too powerful when I tested them. I'll change it back if I'm not happy with this.

Your proposition on rapid fire weapons is something I originally intended to do as well. I think I'll use your suggestion as I thought the option of firing twice at 6" was a needless complexity but I put it in so shooty units could still fare well in scenarios that require them to advance. However I think the one shot like you propose is already enough when considering they also have the option to shoot at 24" which is significantly better than in 40K as opponents aren't able to close in as fast they do in 40k.

As for making armies good or evil like in LotR, I didn't want to do this on purpose as most armies in 40k aren't inherently good or evil and I'd rather had it dictated by the scenario.

I'm really grateful for the feedback. Keep it coming. If you see opportunity to try some test games yourself it's be wonderful. You could also propose some troop types you have in your collection so we can come up with some rules for them together.

Cheers

[Samwuss]

Hi, Hoshi. You may remember me from your earlier thread on this topic. It looks like your work and system of testing have improved! I'll havce more to say when I read 'em over more fully.

[Hoshi No Koe]

Thanks. I remember you.

testing and developping costs a lot of time and effort. its nice to get a tap on the shoulders from time to time.

[Hoshi No Koe]

So, finally had some work done and some test games.

I've added a section with Chaos space marines and made several significant changes in the rules.

I felt Orks had a couple of problems. They were a little bit too expensive for their small durability and once they got into combat, they became too hard to beat. I've reduced an attack from their profiles and added a special rule called "wild charge" for now. It gives them +1 A on the charge. That still makes them impressive in CC, but toned them down a little and gave me the opportunity to make them cheaper. The rule also reflects the power of the waagh they have in 40k as there are no Initiative characteristics in LotR. Apart from the rules aspect I think it's fluffy too, an Ork massed charge is scary, but if you manage to disrupt them enough you'll be able to deal with them.

The most significant change was the change back to pistols working like throwing weapons again. However, I reduced their range to 8" to tone them down a bit.

[marineowar]

Are you planning to convert all the races in 40K?
If you like I'll start drafting some ideas for different unit entries, send them to to you and maybe we can get something from all the codices.

marineowar

[Hoshi No Koe]

Yeah, in due time. But I'm concentrating on the armies me and my friends have and the models we've got. It's surprising how much energy it sucks out of you trying to convert a particular model to these rules and balancing its points.
Any help would really be welcome though.
So please do.

Thanks.

[Samwuss]

Hoshi, I think I might place your current work and 'designer's notes' into a Microsoft Word document, if you'd like that please say so.

[my_name_is_tudor]

This looks to be a really cool idea, I have been crying out for a sort of mordheim equivalent for 40k, and this seems to be just the ticket. Obviously, this is good for protraying small skirmishes, so why not put in the rules for some more obvious skirmish units for these armies. Things like Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, knarloc riding kroot, chaos cultists, ork kommandos?

How do you intend to deal with vehicles, if at all?

You know the LotR rulebook, have the rules changed drastically at all since the very first version of the rulebook to the current one? As I have the first one, but none of the others...

[roadkizzle]

Other people suggested giving good and evil descriptions, well, even though there is no way that you could truly tell which army in 40k is good, and which is evil, you could always use how they did during the eye of terror campaign and lump them in categories such as chaotic and order, or as dnd puts, it, chaotic and lawful.

[Gecko]

In all honesty I think these sound superb. I played a game of LOTR once and it was a lot of fun and I liked the individual dynamics from it. Once you have a decent trial units for all the races you should approach GW with this idea, in a very formal manner and you just might see something like this published in a WD or possibly a mini codex (heck they made that kill team thing which is very different from 40k so setting another game type out of your 40k models would be a good idea, also premotes people to start as you have a fun game that you can play with only a squad or two of men. I really want to give this a test out… I might have to do some SM vs. Orks this weekend. How many points would you recommend for a test game.

[Hoshi No Koe]

Wow, it's been a long time since I've even looked at this thread, much less work on it. Though I do think about it from time to time.
You guys have inspired me to get another go at it again. I've done many test games and had quite some fun with the outcomes. I'd suggest between 300 and 500 pts for test games. They take between 30minutes and an hour to play and try having one or two heroes a side.

I'm really flattered at your enthousiasm and I've been thinking of approaching GW with these rules but only when I'm finished, and it will take me a long time to do I'm afraid.

Samwuss
I've got the rules in Word format but I'm not too hot with computers so if you can make it look nice and want to do it it would be welcome. As this has been a solo effort on my part any help would be welcome.

I've been thinking of doing vehicles using the batter points mechanics of siege engines.

The biggest problems I've encountered so far are with pricing units. i loosely base them off LotR troop types but the test games have had very variable outcomes. For example, playing a scenario twice, a group of marines got murdered by Ork fire in the couple first turns while in the second precisely same scenario, they proved invulnerable.
A couple of tests with orks also made me think that shooting was to powerfull. That's why they have the 33% model limit in LotR that are allowed to carry ranged weapons. Obviously I can't do that in 40k.

What I've been trying to do to reduce the impact of firepower somewhat is trying to think of a suppressing fire mechanic while making it harder to actually kill models in cover or far away with shooting, but enabling you to suppress opposing firepower with your own. So I'm thinking of adding in to hit modifiers like 2nd ed had. However it's very difficult to find a balance with the rules without making them too overly complicated. The prospect of a supressing fire mechanic does open up some very cinematic heroic actions when a hero calls a heroic shoot to suppress the opposition just before they were about to open up with massive firepower.

I'm also having trouble with multi shot weaponry so if any of you care to do some test games I'd be very gratefull. Just tell me what units you own and I'll whip up some trial rules for them ASAP. If you've got specific scenario's you want to play with what you've got you can tell me as well and I'll do my best. The battle companies scenario's are great for test games though.

I'll be working on the suggested scout units mentioned earlier when I get a chance.