he new bits

[knightwire]

Originally Posted by dragonelf

AS someone who uses the forums very infrequently it would be really helpful if someone posted a new topic with a page summary of what we know so far about the new HE, and only include the most solid rumours.

It is really difficult to plod through endless posts trying to piece everything together...

Is someone willing to do this...

Cheers.

Dude. Would it be as helpful as say: people asking the same question over and over agian to stop? Or, my personal favorite, people asking for something that exists under right their nose? There's a link at the top of this very page called 'Fantasy Rumor Roundup' that does exactly what you've just asked for.

This thread is for general discussion about existing and possible new rumors, I'm afraid you're just going to have to slog through it.

[dragonelf]

except the rumour roundup forum just has photos of the new models, it doesn't round up any of the new rules.

[Shimmergloom]

Originally Posted by Varath- Lord Impaler

and 1 St4 attack is enough to beat the crap out of swordmasters still, isnt it.

works for my longbeards.

We've gone through this about 50 times, but somehow it keeps having to be posted.

325pts. 20 Swordsmasters w/full command, 11 S5 attacks, hitting on 3's. 7.4 hits. 5 wounds, 3.35 unsaved.

318 20 Black orcs with full command, 5 attacks back. 2.5 hits. 2.1 wounds. None saved. 2 wounds back.

Swords win 8-6.

[EvC]

Time to start putting together some Boar Chariots, Speak Chukkas, Fanatics and Dogs of War Cannons Shimmergloom.

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

Quote

We've gone through this about 50 times, but somehow it keeps having to be posted.

325pts. 20 Swordsmasters w/full command, 11 S5 attacks, hitting on 3's. 7.4 hits. 5 wounds, 3.35 unsaved.

318 20 Black orcs with full command, 5 attacks back. 2.5 hits. 2.1 wounds. None saved. 2 wounds back.

Swords win 8-6.

I thought its been said that most elf players will use swordmasters in 2 ranks of 7?

Eh. Fine. You hate your army. I guess thats your problem. i can keep going loving my dwarf army without minding.

To this day ive never faced an Ork.

Multitudes of goblin armies, but no orks.

Garn.

[itcamefromthedeep]

2 Dark Elf RBTs

vs Black Orcs: 8 hits, 4 wounds, 3.33 unsaved.
vs Swordmasters: 8 hits, 16/3 wounds, 5.33 unsaved.
Black Orcs win 5.33-3.33.

For Swordmasters, nobody is going to be able to take them in a straight up infantry-on-infantry fight. You would have to do a combined charge to bring them down.

A chariot plus any infantry unit should do it.

Even something like a Pump Wagon (or four) will cause Swordmasters some serious difficulty. Anything that sidesteps their striking first, or better yet does not involve close combat, will hurt them badly.

Units like a Black Coach are perfect for fighting Swordmasters. It causes Terror, which could end the problem outright, it causes impact hits, and it has the durability to survive a solid round of Attacks even if the swordmasters do go first.

My Dwarf will hit them with My Grudge Trower battery and Organ Guns, possibly with some help from my Thunderers and Quarrelers.

My TK will hit them with lots of archery fire and SSCs. Failing that I hit them with my Chariots in the flank as they advance toward my lines (it's not all that hard to do with Incantations when you outnumber your opponent's combat units).

My Vampire Counts will depend on my Strigoi or Black Coach to take them down, possibly with the help of Hellish Vigor in the form of a bound item (the Cursed Book might be needed as well, I never leave home without it). The Strigoi doesn't really need any more help then a 30 Zombie bodyguard, and he can go through a unit of Swordmasters while only losing half the unit (a magic phase's worth of summoning). Even 30 Zombies with some help form the Cursed Book can bring them down after a lucky round, which bodes well for anyone who can get off a spell like Transmutation of Lead.

So, how about those new models? I will pprobably not be getting many of them, simply because I have about 8000 points of them already.

[Arachnis]

Originally Posted by itcamefromthedeep

2 Dark Elf RBTs

vs Black Orcs: 8 hits, 4 wounds, 3.33 unsaved.
vs Swordmasters: 8 hits, 16/3 wounds, 5.33 unsaved.
Black Orcs win 5.33-3.33.

For Swordmasters, nobody is going to be able to take them in a straight up infantry-on-infantry fight. You would have to do a combined charge to bring them down.

A chariot plus any infantry unit should do it.

Even something like a Pump Wagon (or four) will cause Swordmasters some serious difficulty. Anything that sidesteps their striking first, or better yet does not involve close combat, will hurt them badly.

Units like a Black Coach are perfect for fighting Swordmasters. It causes Terror, which could end the problem outright, it causes impact hits, and it has the durability to survive a solid round of Attacks even if the swordmasters do go first.

My Dwarf will hit them with My Grudge Trower battery and Organ Guns, possibly with some help from my Thunderers and Quarrelers.

My TK will hit them with lots of archery fire and SSCs. Failing that I hit them with my Chariots in the flank as they advance toward my lines (it's not all that hard to do with Incantations when you outnumber your opponent's combat units).

My Vampire Counts will depend on my Strigoi or Black Coach to take them down, possibly with the help of Hellish Vigor in the form of a bound item (the Cursed Book might be needed as well, I never leave home without it). The Strigoi doesn't really need any more help then a 30 Zombie bodyguard, and he can go through a unit of Swordmasters while only losing half the unit (a magic phase's worth of summoning). Even 30 Zombies with some help form the Cursed Book can bring them down after a lucky round, which bodes well for anyone who can get off a spell like Transmutation of Lead.

So, how about those new models? I will pprobably not be getting many of them, simply because I have about 8000 points of them already.

Totally Signed

[thedodgeypanda]

I got a way to deal with sword masters with my dark elves. Lord 125 Dragon 320, Sheld of ghrond +30, Black Amulet +50, sword of might, 20 heavy armour+6 sea dragon cloak +9.... This flying unit combined with Dark riders getting the rear charge can beat anything.

[Von Wibble]

Absolutely agree with above 2 posts. And 20 Swordmasters with fcg is 335pts I believe, not 325...

The way I see it, chariots are now a great HE killer. This is especially true as HE don't have anything S7 (well, Star Dragon, and possible magic items, but nothing cheap and accessible). So to utilise SM "unkillability" in combat, we will need to use support to nullify chariots, whether this be diversion with reavers and eagles, straight head on charges with chariots, helms and DPs, or shooting with RBTs (and archers if the chariot isn't too tough). Which will be more difficult to do if we've just spent a huge chunk of points on SMs...

At the end of the day Swordmasters in a large block pay over 300 pts for a T3 unit. They have no psychology benefits. White Lions otoh have 1 less A but +1S and stubborn, as well as a better save vs missiles. If I were to include 2 elite units (very likely) I would have 1 of each not 2 SM.

What I am interested in knowing is how on earth ogres will cope? Its not like HE were an easy matchup for them before!

[Jonathais]

But if Swordmasters retain the ability to take a 25pt magic item, or a 50pt banner, then they could waver/lessen the threat of psychology.

But this is all Theoryhammer, and Theoryhammer is dumb.

[Prince Facestab]

Also, one wonders if our units will still be able to take magic banners or magic items.

Likewise, we may be able to get up to st7, if we still have AotG, or something that works similarly.

I think little tidbits like this will probably not be available until the new book comes out, however.

[Shimmergloom]

Originally Posted by Varath- Lord Impaler

I thought its been said that most elf players will use swordmasters in 2 ranks of 7?

Eh. Fine. You hate your army. I guess thats your problem. i can keep going loving my dwarf army without minding.

To this day ive never faced an Ork.

Multitudes of goblin armies, but no orks.

Garn.

Well unless you're playing against 40k armies you'll never face an ork.

And 14 swords would be cheaper than 20 black orcs, so was just showing 20 vs 20.

Black Orcs should be 6 wide as well. Not 5 wide. And people are still talking about shooting and chariots vs swords as if those things don't work against black orcs too. Or as if 8 armies don't have chariots and one of the ones that do is HE itself. And as if every other army is a gunline.

We've again discussed for 1800 posts that gunlines will take out new HE, just like they can take out anything.

[Arachnis]

You're trying to embarass yourself right?
In 40k noone plays Orcs cause they suck. In Fantasy I recently saw many Orc players and I'm one of them, till High Elves come out. Because I win very often with them, against players all around the world.
You can only compare High Elves 7th edition with other 7th edition army books, cause you don't know which changes will come with other 7th edition releases (that doesn't mean that some 6th edition army books aren't able to beat HE 7th).

Chariots work against Black Orcs, too? Well Black orcs got 3+ AS and T4, and Swordmasters got T3 and AS 5+... Well if chariots work against Black Orcs, I don't want to know how they'll rush away Swordmasters. They're still "only" Elves and so more killable with shooting, chariots, dragon breathes, magic missiles etc.

BTW, even Ogres do impact hits xD

greetings

[40kdhs]

i'm tired of seeing picture.What we need is new HE rules or HE unit stat.

[Von Wibble]

Originally Posted by Prince Facestab

Also, one wonders if our units will still be able to take magic banners or magic items.

Likewise, we may be able to get up to st7, if we still have AotG, or something that works similarly.

I think little tidbits like this will probably not be available until the new book comes out, however.

Thats why I said apart from star dragons and possible items.

Jonathais - true, but Phoenix guard and White Lions get better counter to psychology without having to spend points on a magic banner (if of course one exists in 7th ed book) - and can therefore take one that improves them in some other way, or save some points.

[EvC]

Originally Posted by Arachnis

Chariots work against Black Orcs, too? Well Black orcs got 3+ AS and T4, and Swordmasters got T3 and AS 5+... Well if chariots work against Black Orcs, I don't want to know how they'll rush away Swordmasters.

The saddest thing about this discussion is that you're saying it's best to use Black Orcs with hand weapons and shields in combat (First against Swordmasters, now against Chariots!) rather than their tasty big weapons! If new dynamics force Black Orcs to form a shieldwall to survive, rather than go crazy and chop elves and chariots to pieces then that's a huge shame in my opinion.

[Bobtheuseless]

As the honours rumour hasnt been confirmed or denied what does anybody think they may consist of, would they effect only the lord/hero or perhaps the whole army list? For example a chrace general allows you to field core white lions? (perhaps not that inbalanced thinking about it LOL)

[Noldo]

Well educated sources have confirmed that there will be no honours. If I have understood the rumours correctly, their abilities (at least some of them) are included as magic items. I would guess that Seer and maybe Channeler are awailable as items and I hope for Lion Guard.

For themed forces, some rumours suggest that Korhil would allow White Lions (troops, chariot or both) with less restrictions, but nothing has been confirmed.

[Arachnis]

Originally Posted by EvC

The saddest thing about this discussion is that you're saying it's best to use Black Orcs with hand weapons and shields in combat (First against Swordmasters, now against Chariots!) rather than their tasty big weapons! If new dynamics force Black Orcs to form a shieldwall to survive, rather than go crazy and chop elves and chariots to pieces then that's a huge shame in my opinion.

That's right, but likely necessary. Well, if you don't like them the way they're effective against High Elves, don't use them, it's simple =)

But with support of a chariot attacking the same unit as the black orcs, I would still pick 2 hand weapons with them. With that combination you'll certainly rush SMs down. The problem is, if you get into the right position with chariot + Black Orcs and then the chariot gets shot down =)

Still, because of the example above and some other thoughts, I think playing with/against High Elves will be alot of fun.

greetings

[Bobtheuseless]

Bum about the honours what about houses is it possible they may do those still?