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LirEdinSun
26-08-2007, 09:09
I just putting togehter some Tyranid Termagants I won off Ebay, some are 'Battle of Maccrage' with what I assuming are 'fleshborers'. I'm trying to make up some models for newstarters at my gaming club, I'm an Eldar (3000pts) and Orks (1000+ new army) player.

Also I have some other ones that come with the 'biomorph' spue. are the weapons on that sprue the 'Devourer' and the other 'Spinefists'?

Looking at the GW referance sheet, all this S+1, S-1 one etc. am I right is guessing a termagant with a devourer only get 2 x Str. 2 (S-1) shots at BS of 3? pretty poor really, are devourers on termagants useless, what about Spinefists are they a better option (T/L)?

What do the Assault 2X mean?

Apologies if this should be in the tactica section, my main question is whats on the biomorph spue?

leonmallett
26-08-2007, 09:32
Devourers have better range and pump out a hell of a lot of shots. I have a couple of units of 20 of the blighters. If you are having a few broods of termagants go with at least one of devourers in my view.

The long conical gun is the Devourer. The fisty guns are the spinefists.

Assault 2X is discussed in the codex.

azimaith
26-08-2007, 10:10
LirEdinSun, you need to re-read your codex, you'll realize that devourers aren't so bad. They are strength -1 (thus S2 on basic gaunts) but have a re-roll to wound, thus are slightly *better* than S3 weapons on T3 targets.

LirEdinSun
26-08-2007, 10:11
thats what I thought, I'm guessing the Assault 2X is a d6 or D3 roll so it should pump out a good few shots.

Str. 2 is a bit rank, anything with T=5 is too tough and AP- is it worth it?

Randy
26-08-2007, 10:18
2x means your shots are double what your attacks on your profile are. Meaning you get a LOT of shots.

Bregalad
26-08-2007, 10:21
Read the Tyranid Tactica thread http://warseer.com/forums/40k-tactics/6082-tactica-nids.html and you soon get the idea that all three variants have their uses for people.

Spinegaunts and Termagaunts for horde canon fodder, "Wormgaunts" for surprise middle range fire. They need to be coordinated with rest of army though (Hormagaunts, Genestealers, big'uns), or they are just shot down. And they have problems against skimmer Eldar armies.

And yes, it's devourers spinefists and some glands/toxic sacks on the sprue.

Dreachon
26-08-2007, 10:22
also for devilgaunts people often take a toxin sac to give the little blighters some extra strenght, this does put them on par with hormagaunts in therms of price but when a brood of 16 unleashed a volley of 32 shots your opponennt is not gonna smile any longer.

LirEdinSun
26-08-2007, 10:31
termagaunts only get 1 attack so devourers are only a basic assault 2.

Also on the termagant plastic sprue what is the 'chestbuster' insect used for?

HiveFleetEzekial
26-08-2007, 11:16
That's one of the little rippers. 3 on a base will make a swarm for the ripper swarm selection in the army list.

With all these qwuestions, it begs asking, do you have a copy of the codex handy? All these questions you've asked sofar (including the rippers, and what guns are what. the thing's got plenty of pics to identify just about everything that anything could take) can easily be answered withenthe pages of it. (as an aside we can't really just *give* out rules here, so you may end up asking something we just can't answer here, and you'll have to look in the 'dex.)

LirEdinSun
26-08-2007, 11:32
Alas I'm stuck at work I brought all my modelling gear in (glue, sprues, paint etc.) but no codex, I have termagant models I want to build, but not sure on wargear and its going to be late afternoon before I get my hands on the 'dex, I read up on all the stuff for the Battle of Maccrage models but the wargear option (biomorph sprue) threw me off a little bit and it was annoying me (like a fleshborer in the brain).

As I said I'm a Eldar/Ork player and the Nids stuff all new to me and its not going to be a full army either, its going to be club army for other newbies and really need the bare bones of the army.

Many thanks for your help to everyone.

leonmallett
26-08-2007, 11:36
thats what I thought, I'm guessing the Assault 2X is a d6 or D3 roll so it should pump out a good few shots.

Str. 2 is a bit rank, anything with T=5 is too tough and AP- is it worth it?

What has T5 regularly? Not much. Anyhoo, at that Strength T4 or 5 are the same, so not a disadvantage in real terms if you think about it.

Angelwing
26-08-2007, 14:31
As I said I'm a Eldar/Ork player and the Nids stuff all new to me and its not going to be a full army either, its going to be club army for other newbies and really need the bare bones of the army.



As its a just for fun force, just pick a gun type you like the look of, and build them. There is no point worrying about tactical considerations with this type of force, build them up and have some fun!

gLOBS
26-08-2007, 14:38
Well I think the next thing you need to gte from ebay is a codex with lots of pretty pictures of biomorphs, weapons and units with names aattached.

max the dog
27-08-2007, 18:28
My advise on basic troops like shooty gaunts is to keep them cheap and numerous. It's just not worth it to buff them up with biomorphs when it's massive numbers that you need.
To get the most out of shooty gaunts you have to think of the attack run. Plan everything out so your termagaunts have a "move-fleet-move-fleet-move-shoot-assault" Since the gun only has a 12" range you're probably only going to shoot with it once anyway or you'll risk getting your unit charged. The exception is the devourergaunt whose 18" range usually alows it to get off 2 rounds of shooting (or 4 shots per model) before getting into close combat. So their attack run is more like "move-fleet-move-shoot-move-shoot-assault". On paper mathhammer will put the devourergaunts slightly ahead of the termagunt for it's total attack run but on a round for round total the basic termagaunt is the killier model.
But don't read too deep into mathhammer results; experiment for yourself over a few games what works better based upon your army style. Whip up a 400 point list and play a lot of combat patrols. It's quick and easy to play multiple small games in one night and you will learn a lot.

grickherder
27-08-2007, 19:06
A small swarm of devourer armed guants is pretty nice, but I probably wouldn't make all of my guants so expensive. I'm a fan of the 6 point termigant because sometimes it's nice to have some S4 shots for a light vehicle. As far as planning attack runs go, it's also good to combine that thinking with planning your waves. So if you have a 12" guant (termigant or spinegaunt) then following them a devourer gaunt wave makes perfect sense.

Also you'll need to decide when you'll want to assault something. For example, if there isn't a sufficient threat in a squad to something else, devourer guants are actually better off stopping 13"-18" away from an enemy with rapid fire weapons and just shooting. Your opponent has to either take a single shot or close with you. It also can throw some players as they won't expect you to stand and shoot with guants. And if you need them to assault next turn, if they're 13" away, you should be able to get there with a fleet roll (for sure at 12.1-13" away).

But if tying up a unit makes more sense, then by all means get into contact. It depends on how you plan your waves, assess threats, etc.,. But in isolation, a devourer gaunt is better off not charging the same points of space marines if you can stay 13" away.

dybbukdude
27-08-2007, 20:46
Let's do math! Lets say we play T 3 army
devourer 3 pts. has 1/2 chance of hitting
has 2/3 chance to wound (if scored a hit) (re rollable)
so 1/4 chance to hit both wait crap i screwed up

can someone that actually does math help me out i suck at math

grickherder
27-08-2007, 21:28
Againts a t3 target with 5+ save:

10 point devourer gaunt 2 shots, 1 hit, .75 wounds, .5 wounds after save
7 point devourer gaunt 2 shots, 1 hit, .556 wounds, .3704 wounds after save
6 point termigant 1 shot, .5 hit, .556 wounds
9 point termigant 1 shot, .5 hit, .972 wounds
5 point spinegaunt 1 shot, .75 hit, .375 wounds
8 point spinegaunt 1 shot, .75 hit, .5 wounds

Against T4 with a 3+ save:

10 pt devourer gaunt - 2 shots 1 hit, .556 wounds, .185 wounds after saves
7 pt devourer gaunt - 2 shots, 1 hit, .1944 wounds, .065 wounds after saves
6 pt termigant - 1 shot, .5 hit, .375 wounds, .125 wounds after saves
9 pt termigant - 1 shot, .5 hit, .889 wounds, .296 wounds after saves
5 pt spinegaunt - 1 shot, .75 hit, .333 wounds .111 wounds after saves
8 pt spinegaunt - 1 shot, .75 hit, .5 wounds, .167 wounds after saves

And adjusted for points values with the 10 point devourer guant as a basis:
per 10 points in one round of shooting:
againt t3 5+ save:
10 pt dev: .5 wounds
7 pt dev: .529 wounds
6 pt term: .9267 wounds
9 pt term: 1.08 wounds
5 pt spine: .75 wounds
8 pt spine: .9375 wounds

against t4 3+ save:
10 pt dev: .185 wounds
7 pt dev: .093 wounds
6 pt term: .208 wounds
9 pt term: .329 wounds
5 pt spine: .222 wounds
8 pt spine: .209 wounds

So if the measure was only a single round of shooting, those are the numbers per 10 points spent on gaunts. This can't take into consideration things like an extra round of shooting from the range, or the value of getting a unit stuck in combat with cheap gaunts, or the extra wounds from having twice as many spinegaunts as 10 point devourergaunts.

For a solid all round gaunt, the termigant would be my pick. At 6 points a pop they can get the occasional lucky hit against some light vehicles, as well as being reasonably good at killing both marine equivalents (MEQs) as well as guardsman equivalents (GEQs). If I went for the increased strength gaunts, I'd probably go for the 9 pt termigant as S5 opens up a lot of possibilities like glancing the front armour of rhinos as well as a solid wound rate against a lot of things-- but I'd likely only ever take a single brood of them because at 9 points, they're just too pricey for swarming. Point for point though, in a single round of shooting, the s5 living ammunition fleshborer gets the highest kills against both the MEQ and GEQ.

A good approach might be to get a bit of everything. If you spent 600 points on guants and divided it into 4 troops choices, you could have a brood of 30 spine gaunts, 25 termigants, 21 devourergaunts as well as 15 s3 devourer gaunts. You'd still have the tarpit/swamp units as well as the higher ranged shooting.

Tulun
27-08-2007, 23:19
I probably would avoid the devourer gaunt; they generally need STR (str 2 ftl), and the cost soars through the roof. Your 5 point (or 6 point) spine/termagaunt dies just as easy the that 10 point Devourer gaunt.

Gaunts should be cheap and numerous. I just wish I could make my 6 point CC gaunts again :( 3rd edition, just a pair of talons... 6 points. Now that was a gaunt I liked.

The Termagaunt is probably the best buy, because the extra point, you get +1 str and retain a re-roll.

grickherder
27-08-2007, 23:32
CC gaunts were cheap and nasty, weren't they? As far as the models go, you could always use them as hormagaunts-- just mix them in with the leaping ones and they should look fine on the table top.

I love termigants. I got 50 of them off of ebay from broken down Macragge parts auctions for less than the cost of a single Macragge box new, and I'm watching for more. I'll probably make a small brood with the toxin sacs just to get some S 5 shooting going on. One of the first things I figured out about tyranids was that if you have enough synapse, take all 6 troop slots regardless of the points size of the game.

max the dog
28-08-2007, 19:41
I still say that you have to take everything into account before you decide what it is you want. In it's full attack run the devourer armed gaunt will get off 4 shots and recieve 2 charge attacks. The spinegaunts and termagaunt will get off 1 shot and then recieve 2 charge attacks. A spinefisted ripperswarm will get off 6 shots and 4 charge attacks. I did the mathhammer and it works out like this, for every 160-168 points spent in gaunts you will kill;

Vrs T3 5+ save (Imp. Guard)
Devourergaunt 24.7 kills
Devourergaunt & toxin sacks 23.1 kills
Termagaunt 21 kills
Termagaunt & toxin sacks 16.8 kills
Spinegaunt 22 kills
Spinegaunt & toxin sacks 19 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm 16.9
Spinefisted Ripperswarm & toxin sacks 16.4
Spinefisted Ripperswarm & enhanced senses 20.1
Spinefisted Ripperswarm, toxin sacks & enhanced senses 20

Vrs T3 4+ save (Tau Firewarrior)
Devourergaunt 20.4 kills
Devourergaunt & toxin sacks 19.1 kills
Termagaunt 15 kills
Termagaunt & toxin sacks 12.5 kills
Spinegaunt 16.7 kills
Spinegaunt & toxin sacks 14 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm 13.4 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm & toxin sacks 13 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm & enhanced senses 15.2 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm, toxin sacks & enhanced senses 14.4 kills

Vrs T4 3+ save (Space Marine)
Devourergaunt 7.2 kills
Devourergaunt & toxin sacks 8.6 kills
Termagaunt 6.4 kills
Termagaunt & toxin sacks 5.7 kills
Spinegaunt 6.2 kills
Spinegaunt & toxin sacks 5.9 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm 4.8 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm & toxin sacks 5.3 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm & enhanced senses 5.7 kills
Spinefisted Ripperswarm, toxin sacks & enhanced senses 6 kills

By a pure kill ratio the devourergaunts look to be your best bet for your points but that dissapears when you look at survival rate. The 160-168 points worth will get you;
23 wounds of Devourergaunt
16 wounds of Devourergaunt & toxin sacks
27 wounds of Termagaunt
18 wounds of Termagaunt & toxin sacks
32 wounds of Spinegaunt
20 wounds of Spinegaunt & toxin sacks
45 wounds of Spinefisted Ripperswarm
33 wounds of Spinefisted Ripperswarm & toxin sacks
42 wounds of Spinefisted Ripperswarm & enhanced senses
30 wounds of Spinefisted Ripperswarm, toxin sacks & enhanced senses

So what does all this mean? If you want to run your gaunts as shooters first and appreciate the range then go with devourergaunts with toxin sacks. If you want a unit that's going to kill a few and then stick to a unit like glue then a ripper swarm with enhanced senses is a very good bet. The gaunts that can do both are the basic termagaunt and spinegaunt. I gave you the raw numbers the rest is up to your playing style.