PDA

View Full Version : Beastmen blow



keudiven
26-08-2007, 12:18
This is my beastman rant. After playing them for 2 years without having won a single game, I have come to the conclusion that they just plain suck.

Now I know that a slew of you will jump on the old, no you just suck...I always win with them ect., band wagon, unable to believe that an army could infact actually suck. But recent data does not support your claim.

I play High Elves, Skaven, and VC also and win regularly. I have been playing almost 5 years and know the game intimately. After having just wrapped up a world wide campaign (nemisis crown ) in which over a 6 week spread the beastmen never did better than 13th out of 14 armies and finished dead last, I conclude one of two things. Either the beastmen do infact suck, or everyone who plays them suck.

I can tell you in one word why they suck.....Leadership. If not for LD they are a good army. I have lost every game for 2 straight years due to LD. EVERY GAME.

Here you have a race whose whole culture is based on violence and brutality where death is a way of life. But if you even loose resolution by 1, you will undoubtedly run. IF you esentially tie but the enemy has a musician and you don't , you will run. For the love of God, that orc right there beat on his drum, run for you lives.

Do you realise that a common woodelf archer is as inspiring to his army as is Kazrok? Thats right, The current greatest beastman alive, of which legends are told, who is considered almost a tactical genius among his race, is just as able a general as is the high elf who carries the ammo for the bolt thrower.

Well I think I have made my point.

hamster67
26-08-2007, 12:44
I've noticed this as well i personally feel to make them effective they have to be played with hordes of chaos, but saying that the fact that you need to use another army to make it work maybe it is just a bad army...

Ward.
26-08-2007, 13:08
keudiven: Some of that's sig worthy.
I'll agree with some of it, but I'll also say that they can be made competitive easily enough.


EDIT:Morghur (spl?) spawn horde come to mind.

fubukii
26-08-2007, 13:21
take 20 tuskgor chariots, I bet you wont lose many games then :P

THere are plenty of ways to win with beastmen, you just have to think outside the box

the 20 chariot army is a really good list.
Minotaur armies (khorne or nurgle)
Mixed beast army (mostly beast some mortal support units like khorne knights)

Maybe you should post your list, so we can see what your working with

blurred
26-08-2007, 13:36
Although I agree that beastmen aren't the most competitive army out there, I still think you're exaggerating here.


I can tell you in one word why they suck.....Leadership. If not for LD they are a good army. I have lost every game for 2 straight years due to LD. EVERY GAME.

Maybe you should do something about it then. Take a daemon to lead your horde and provide a comfortable LD9 to your troops. Get units of Khornotaurs or Khorngors and you're safe from panic for at least until you lose a combat which is pretty unlikely with these guys.


Here you have a race whose whole culture is based on violence and brutality where death is a way of life. But if you even loose resolution by 1, you will undoubtedly run. IF you esentially tie but the enemy has a musician and you don't , you will run. For the love of God, that orc right there beat on his drum, run for you lives.

So for two years you have been losing combats by one and that has been the downfall of your whole army? :eyebrows: There's a simple answer to your problem: make sure you don't lose combats! Get chariots and other hitty stuff to support your units. Also, BSB is great for keeping your units from running away too soon.

I understand it can be frustrating to lose all the time, but in that case you should revise your army, your tactics and your attitude. You play with skaven, HE and VC which don't really have an issue with leadership so pay special attention to panic (fleeing directions etc.) when playing with beasts. Also, beasts are very maneuverable so you should be able to pick your fights and make sure you don't lose combats. Hope this helps. :)

logan054
26-08-2007, 13:39
Chaos generally has the issue with leadership in most games, be it mortal, daemon or beatsmen, with mortals and daemons its far to expensive to take someone with leadership 9, i dont know about you but i dont really want to spend a 1/4 of my points on a single model. The thing is its far easier to win with the other armies you mentioned, beastmen require careful use, amusing has to be one of the most amazing things you can have! Personally i dont think the chaos books are meant to be used as stand alone armies, i think this is a fatal mistake everyone makes.

At the end of they day it depends what god you use (and thus magic), so as said post you list and tactics and perhaps people here can help, if not try going to herdstone for advise.

sigur
26-08-2007, 13:44
...
the 20 chariot army is a really good list.
...

It's bland, unimaginative, a 1-trick pony and quite cheesy, that's what it is.

fubukii
26-08-2007, 13:47
that may be true but it looks quite nice on the table top, and the topic is about winning with beasts of chaos, and that is one way you can win alot of games.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
26-08-2007, 14:14
Personally i dont think the chaos books are meant to be used as stand alone armies, i think this is a fatal mistake everyone makes.



I don't know about that. I play a Slaanesh Mortals army and I do pretty well with it. I'd like to know what kind of list the OP is using.

Neknoh
26-08-2007, 14:58
To the OP, have you done ANYTHING to remedy this? Have you put Nurgle characters in your herds to avoid Fear? Have you used the Crown of Horns at all? Have you fielded Minotaurs of Khorne or Slaanesh?

Have you done anything at all? Or have you just stuck with a Beastlord (who have yet to fail me), if you feel leadership is a problem in your battles, why haven't you tried to do anything about it? To me, it sounds as if though even though you've tried, you have not done it properly. Besides, beastmen should ALWAYS have a Musician, that's Lw Ld Army 101, Always field a Musician in case a unit flees, that one extra leadership can be crutial.

If you feel that Ld8 isn't good enough, then go for a Doombull, Shaggoth Champion or a Daemonprince with the Unliving Idol, all very good choices to lead a Beast army, unless you want that ambush. If you want ambush, you shouldn't ever be faced with battles you can't win, ambushing beastmen can be, quite frankly, rude. You can combine charges better than any elven army.

As for the leadership thing, no, that elven loader is NOT a better leader, that is not what the stat stands for, it judges the CHARACTER, the MORALE and the DISCIPLINE of the unit, you said it yourself, they are a barbaric, brutish tribe people who dedicate their lives to battles and raids, they don't train in formation, the Gors simply shove their way to the front. Beastmen aren't trained in the art of war, they are for fighting, and that is why their leadership is low

sephiroth87
26-08-2007, 15:05
Post your list and I'll believe that you're not trolling.

Goat T
27-08-2007, 20:24
I've been playing them for 4 years, and they have done me very proud.
Some armies are very hard to beat with the, (e.g Dwarfs and Bretonnia), but once you master them, every army becomes beatable.

What size games do you play? In small games e.g 500pts, the leadership is always going to be problems. In larger games, Beasties start to flurish.

The one thing I can advise you is take units that are just big enough to do damage, but don't make them too big. Have many units, and swarm your enemy. I agree, the best way to help you is to see a general list you use.

As for needing mortals, I never touch them anymore. I saw too many Chosen Knights disintegrate to thunderers, I put them away and only use them in 3000pt games. The only thing I use are 1 to 2 of the following: Furies, Screamers or Mounted Daemonettes. Is it a necessity? NO. But why pass up units that move 20"?

pcgamer72
27-08-2007, 20:52
To the OP, I think you're a bit harsh on the army. I know several great Beastmen generals who have had success with the army book for a while now.

Ambush is a VERY GOOD ability. Sure, not every unit is going to be able to land where you want it. However, if you take the magical Brayhorn that gives +1 LD to your check, then you should be rolling on an 8 (I believe). Enough of your units should land in the area where you tell them to that when combined with units marching across the board (Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres), you should be able to pick some combats you can win.

pox
27-08-2007, 22:48
just throwing this out there, my beast list is nothing but herds, a few units of bestigor, 2-3 chariots, and a shaman. my 2000 list is a lord (with bray horn) two lvl two shamans (staff of darkoth, two dispells). I have 3 herds of 25 beastmen, two units of 25 bestigors, three chariots, and around 4 units of hounds. I do have problems with fear-armys (especially ogres) but do fairly well against anything else.

that means I have two units of bestigors in front with some hounds and chariots, and the rest of my army arrives behind my opponent. nothing quite like 75 skirmishers that can fight like hell to change the tide of battle.

Gazak Blacktoof
28-08-2007, 03:42
Perhaps not hugely reliable as a source of information but nobody has addressed the OPs concerns about how they fared in the nemesis campaign.

They clearly performed badly and it can't be because all of the generals suck. You'd expect them to score better than 13th (OPs information) during at least one of the 6 weeks surely?

I've not got a huge amount of experience with beastmen having only played half a dozen or so games with them, what they do seem to lack though is a return on their poor leadership when they actually reach combat. I've found that herds reliably bounce off units with a 4+ or 3+ save particularly dwarfs who are also capable of blasting them apart at range.

Neknoh
28-08-2007, 03:49
Not necesarily, some army has to be the worst, and I know that several of the chaps over at the herdstone didn't bother with it, I never battled for Nemesis once with either of my Chaos armies, and it is very likely that a load of Beastmen generals didn't do that either.

To base a decision like that on a very poorly run and supported campaign on GW's behalf isn't really worth noting. I have seen plenty of Beastmen armies do well in tournaments, I have read reports on the Herdstone that shows that they clearly are a force to be reckoned with.

Besides, Chaos lost completely and utterly in the Storm of Chaos campaign... does that mean that Hordes of Chaos blows?

kyussinchains
28-08-2007, 04:06
to the OP, if you dont like beastmen, do you want to sell them to me? I'd be interested in taking them off your hands....

WageMage
28-08-2007, 04:47
I've not got a huge amount of experience with beastmen having only played half a dozen or so games with them, what they do seem to lack though is a return on their poor leadership when they actually reach combat. I've found that herds reliably bounce off units with a 4+ or 3+ save particularly dwarfs who are also capable of blasting them apart at range.Well, that's why the list has heavy hitters like the Dragon Ogres and Minotaurs. Doombulls have LD9, good enough I'd think.
You also have plenty of cheap stuff to screen them with until they can get in combat.

I never understood why people think they're a weak list.
You have big killy units with 6 and 7 STR, chariots, and skirmishing support troops that generate CR.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
28-08-2007, 10:36
Okay, so your Ld is low....

You make reference to the opponent having a Musician when you don't, and losing the combat. Simple answer? Never, EVER leave home without a Musician in each and every unit that can have one. Helps in ties, but also adds +1 to your rally tests should you flee. Thats pretty damned important.

You have the Ambush rule, use it. Don't pick on his army piecemeal, jump whole areas at once. Stick him between a rock and a hard place. For example, Ambush behind a unit when you have Hounds in position to threaten it already. Your pretty much guaranteed a rear charge either way, ensuring the coming combat will be short, and most of all, successful.

Beastmen do not suck.

Gazak Blacktoof
28-08-2007, 11:07
Actually I've never been keen on hordes of chaos. It has massive internal balance issues.

The usual response to question like "how do I win with chaos?" is usually slap a mark of slaanesh/ khorne on anything that can have it.


I've no real problems personnally with the beasts book besides what terror causing creatures can do to the army as a whole. I was merely pointing out that nobody had addressed the OPs concerns.

My gripes is with the hordes book as noted above. It doesn't "suck" but it doesn't let me build a nice looking infantry army either**. Nurgle as pointed out a number of times blows and the mark of tzeentch is as much a liability as a boon.

Back to beastmen...

**Using the storm of chaos list combined with crom rectifies this.

theunwantedbeing
28-08-2007, 11:43
So you lose because you fail break tests eh?
There are several ways of rectifying this problem.
1.Take a higher leadership general
A doombull for example,or a shaggoth lord,or a daemon prince with unliving idol.Or a chaos lord....

2.Increase your chances of passing break tests with a battle standard bearer.He only has to be close enough to be in range of the combat,he doesnt have to be in the combat.

3.Dont fight combats your likely to lose.
Ie. you outnumber the enemy with your cheap troops,you do have cheap troops.

4.Finally you could alter your style of play to not base it around needing to pass leadership tests.
Ie. play more aggressively,deploy your army to one side rather than spread acorss the board,force your opponent into a reactive game.

In a pure beasts army you have a lot of very good things:
nice cheap character's
cheap unit
heavy hitters by the bucketload
chariots
And several things can take marks to further improve their abilities.

You dont "need" leadership 9 for your army,sure it helps,but you only need it for things where your on the losing end of the fight.
Break tests
Panic tests

Only really fear tests are where you could do with a higher leadership,and then you just send your own fear causing stuff at them,as they dont need to take those tests.

Posting your list would greatly help us understand why you have lost so much in the past 2 years.

(maybe your just using an all beastherd army with a beasts shaman as the general......with mosty ungor)

Methrin
28-08-2007, 11:43
Nemesis Crown Results are tweaked.

Lizardmen finished 1st for the 4th week if I remember correctly, yet their standing wasn't that high that week, and if I remember correctly, beasts of chaos were 1st for the 1st week in the reik's marches (Canada). So no, they did not "lose the most", they were just made the losers by whoever analysed the results and did rankings.

the1stpip
28-08-2007, 13:24
I tend to find Ld is an issue for Beasts.

My Lord, who has only once been killed in Close Combat, if he and his Bestigors don't break an unit on the charge with Great Weapons, then the following turns they will struggle and undoubtedly break from combat.

I have recently tried using the banner of the Gods. It is very expensive, but I found with my Mortals, if you don't run away with your expensive units, you can counter charge the chargers with big nasty units of Minotaurs or Dragon Ogres.

I personally wouldn't use anything but a Beastlord, as I enjoy ambushing.

That being said, I have still won a lot more games than I have lost, including a 2000 pt, 5 model Tzeentch Army...

sephiroth87
28-08-2007, 15:04
I still see no list. Yup, it's a troll alright...

Neknoh
28-08-2007, 15:57
Actually I've never been keen on hordes of chaos. It has massive internal balance issues.

The usual response to question like "how do I win with chaos?" is usually slap a mark of slaanesh/ khorne on anything that can have it.


I've no real problems personnally with the beasts book besides what terror causing creatures can do to the army as a whole. I was merely pointing out that nobody had addressed the OPs concerns.

My gripes is with the hordes book as noted above. It doesn't "suck" but it doesn't let me build a nice looking infantry army either**. Nurgle as pointed out a number of times blows and the mark of tzeentch is as much a liability as a boon.

Back to beastmen...

**Using the storm of chaos list combined with crom rectifies this.

Yes, all viable points, and all things which I am working with removing from the thoughts of Chaos Generals on Warseer, given, Warriors of Khorne does have an edge, but that's not how you win with the army as a whole. There aren't really any massive internal balancing issues, the problem is that players doesn't dare try what has not been tried before, and thusly, people perfect one form of build, and that's the only build which can possibly work according to most people. It is not however, I have seen all infantry Nurgle armies do a number on several tourney tweaked lists. I have seen Tzeentch daemon heavy armies do well, the problem with people is that they want cookie cutter lists, and when people ask for advice on their army, people give them cookie cutters. I do give general advice such as "take Marauder Horsemen, drop Warriors to get the points", that is very much a truth, but I try to preserve the basic thought of the list or find that red thread that runs through the list and work with it.

As for mass spread terror, well... three or four characters with the Mark of Nurgle quickly makes your herds immune to Terror and only susceptible to fearing the charge of/to the terror causer. Other than herds and unmarked bestigors (unmarked as in non-undivided even), there isn't anything in the list that has problems with it, due to causing fear, being immune to psychology, or getting rerolls on their tests.

And we did point out the OP's concerns, Beasts as an army does not blow, however, you are correct, only after you mentioning the OP's thoughts on the Nemesis Crown did I comment those results, and I think I did make a valid standpoint. And the mark of Tzeentch is not a liabillity when put on units that can manage the tests, a Lord of Tzeentc (very popular choice despite insane cost) does actually make up for the severe blow that marked units takes to their Psychology when marked with Tzeentch, Nurgle on the otherhand has problems due to the effects of Fear, however, it can be very useful when used properly, one medium sized block of normal Warriors supported by a unit of Nurglings suddenly gain the Unit Strength required to autobreak an enemy, and they get one helluva survivabillity due to the Cloud. After my Undivided army with Khorne elements (northern hunter theme, wolves, lots of fur, axes, poleaxes etc), Nurgle or Tzeentch will be added as the third mark (four with undivided) to enter the service of my Dark Masters, Nurgle will be infantry based whilst Tzeentch will be Beast based with Horrors for support.

Anyhow, those were the issues of you, and, to the original poster, I say the same thing as Jedi, bring a list or we will deffinately think of you as a troll, so.. untill he produces a list, I suggest we do the only sane thing, the one thing Sylass always tells us to do, point number twentynine in the "Wildlife survival guide for citizens of the Empire" under the headline of "What to do when a troll barks at you":

Please do not feed the troll
If you ignore it, it might go away

Omegakai
28-08-2007, 16:01
I have a GT army entirely composed of wolf riders.
if i can win games against fear casing armies. surely beast men can win games.

mistformsquirrel
28-08-2007, 17:58
That being said, I have still won a lot more games than I have lost, including a 2000 pt, 5 model Tzeentch Army...

Stupid question on my part I'm sure >.< but how can you possibly get a 5 model army? Wouldn't core requirements require you take at *least* 30 models?

>.< I'm new so I'm genuinely curious, not flaming!

EvC
29-08-2007, 10:52
Core chariots, nuff said. Still I didn't know you could get quite that few a number of models...

the1stpip
29-08-2007, 12:41
Lord of Tzeentch on Dragon
Champ of Tzeentch on chariot of Tzeentch (1 core)
Champ of Tzeentch on chariot of tzeentch (2 core)
Chariot of Tzeentch (3 core)
Shaggoth.

Evil, but quite beatable...

keudiven
29-08-2007, 12:41
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to the forums. I have been really busy. Also I appreciate the fact the you as a community responded fairly to my rant as opposed to simply flaming me. Here is the general list I have have used recently, however I do play many different variations of the army.
2500 pts

Morghur
Wargor with armor of damnation , shield, sword of might, mark of undivided. (He leads my beastigors)
Brey Shaman with power familiar ( usually take lore of beasts but not always )

Double beat herds (usually set in ambush )
large block of beastigors with mark of chaos undivided
double small units of hounds which are fielded close to Morghur

Double blocks of 10 centigors
a single unit of 5 chaos ogres

2 chaos giants.

I usually place Morghur in the center flanked by the the hounds. I will have the giants close as their LD 10 will keep them safe from Morghur and yet lend huge support to him. this has worked nicely as by turn 2, I have Morghur, spawns, and giants up the middle OUCH !!

Depending on the enemies deployment, I like to place the ogres on one side of that, and the beastigors on the other. Then I will either split the centigors on the extreame flanks or I will stack them together on a flank depending again on enemy deployments.

As you likely noticed, no chariots in this perticular list, though I do utalize them. This list is offensively heavy hitting and in every case I feel I have the game won until undoubtedly, one or two unsuccessful LD checks brings it all to ruin =)

keudiven
29-08-2007, 19:45
Lastly, I suppose in my wording I may have inadvertantly implied that I don't use musicians. I have full command on every one of my units. My comment about the musician was merely an exagerated example of a creature whose whole life has witnessed brutality and bloodshed, and yet he will panic and run if someone merely hurls a well placed insult in his direction.

One good " your momma " joke, and the beasts will run for the hills.

Urgat
29-08-2007, 19:56
I have a GT army entirely composed of wolf riders.
if i can win games against fear casing armies. surely beast men can win games.

Was about to say that, I'm mostly an all goblin player, and I still manage to win about 50% of my battles. At the begining I didn't, for the simple reason my army list was crappy (too much RaF units, no fast cavalry, no hard hitting things like squigs and so on). Slight adjustements corrected it all and now it's fairly good, even with a Ld of 7 (haven't played 2000pt battles for at least a couple years...).
On the not of musicians, bloody yes, you must ALWAYS take musicians. Always! I may think twice (or even thrice) about taking a standard bearer, but musicians? These guys have saved me more battles than my general's Ld.

Slightly off topic, I'm dreaming of a minotaur army... If only they were made into plastic... But even then I just love the current ones, and I'm pretty sure if they ever get plastic sets (I suppose they will someday, everything does), they will change their design, and I won't like them anymore :o

Back on topic (somehow), if that can make you feel better: I've had an uncanny amount of battle lost the same way:
The turn before my last one, somehow, a fanatic manages to kill my shaman. It doesn't matter how far my shaman is, it doesn't matter if I put him behind a building, unless I place the dude in a difficult terrain (not always available and usually that means he cannot see anything anymore), there's one bloody fanatic that will manage to get him, even if he has to cross half the bloody battlefield (maybe he should double check his recipe for madcap mushrooms, they do seem to resent him...). Then my opponent can freely blast me away with spells on the subsequent turns (all that while laughting hysterically), resulting in fleeing units and so on.
Now THAT is frustrating.

pcgamer72
29-08-2007, 20:08
2500 pts

Morghur
Wargor with armor of damnation , shield, sword of might, mark of undivided. (He leads my beastigors)
Brey Shaman with power familiar ( usually take lore of beasts but not always )

Double beat herds (usually set in ambush )
large block of beastigors with mark of chaos undivided
double small units of hounds which are fielded close to Morghur

Double blocks of 10 centigors
a single unit of 5 chaos ogres

2 chaos giants.



Thanks for posting a list! Hopefully people can help you out more now.

I don't play Beastmen, but I think that I can offer some hekp to you in order to get this started.

Units of 10 Centigors seems like 4-5 too many. You are doubling the cost of the unit in order to get a +1 rank bonus that can be nullified with one wound from shooting. 5-6 seems like a good number to me.

Only 2 beast herds at 2500 points? That seems like far too few. I have seen up to 7+ Beast herds at that many points before, and I believe the average is probably somewhere around 4-5.

Your Bray-Shaman doesn't seem like he would do much in the list either. Unless Morghur is a wizard (I don't think he is?), then I can't see a single lvl2 wizard getting a spell off. I would give him 2 scrolls instead of the Power Familiar, because at least then he can provide some type of support to your army.

I would also consider getting another Bray-Shaman. By dropping some Centigors, possibly an Ogre, and maybe a couple Bestigors (depending how many are in the unit), I think you should be able to field a couple more small Herds and possibly another Shaman.

Another unit I believe you might take a look at are Minotaurs. By dropping a Giant, you could acquire a unit with Great Weapons.

Of course, you should keep your list with the units you like, so if you take even one of the suggestions that I have posed, I think it could help out.

torgoch
29-08-2007, 20:10
Beasts of Chaos players don't seem to be terribly motivated by the WFB campaigns GW runs - that is a more significant factor in the faction's poor showing than anything to do with the army list being inherently weak / strong.

That this is the case is hardly surprising, since in terms of narrative there isn't that much you can do with regards the Beasts. There is no clear faction organisation, nor is there any territory assigned to the faction, hence they end up being relegated to a 'don't go down to the woods today' kind of role. Hardly inspiring stuff.

Makaber
29-08-2007, 20:12
I'm sorry, but how can you complain about a lack of Leadership, and then play the only list in the game without a general?

1) Get a Beastlord and a Battle Standard Bearer.
2) Classified.
3) Triumph!

Urgat
29-08-2007, 20:35
Missed that you posted your army list. I have a couple comments too.
I agree that units of 10 centigors are wasted points. 5 (6 if you really want to) are a much better choice (the rank in a "cavalry" unit is wasted points if you ask me, a poor +1 to CR... yeah, put that 6th centigor in the front rank, you'll most likely get that +1 with an additional wound on most T3 units).
Two giants? Well I have some experience with giants, and, to my knowledge, for 205 points, you can have, dunno, better things, that's for sure (a unit of ogres, or no, actually, 3 dragon ogres. That's a better rare choice if you ask me, and they have enough Ld to stand on their own - and you can keep your two units of centigors and the ogres).
Take 4 ogres, not 5, too. That's one ogre you pay and that can't fight. You may argue that he can fill in a dead ogre, but if it comes to that, well, he won't save the unit if it breaks and flee.
Now remove Morghur (378 points man :p) and take a doombull (Ld9!), and take a unit of minotaurs maybe, and more beast herds. That's not a huge investment, and that will probably make quite an efficient list as well.

T10
29-08-2007, 20:37
Agreed. You will find that your Leadership issues will become a lot more manageable if you take a General and a Battle Standard. This you can surely afford in a 2500 game.

Also, losing combats due to the enemy's musician can usually be avoided by investing in your very own musician as well. The fact that musicians improve your chance to successfully rally should also be considered.

So, do beastmen blow?

Well, they are unreliable, lack shooting and can't always rely on outmaneuvering the enemy. They don't have fast, hard-hitting cavalry and their magic is some-what limited.

These short-comings can be alleviated somewhat within the options available to you without unduly compromising th e"purity" of the Beastmen.

A General and a Battle Standard Bearer will make your army more reliable. Warhounds will allow you to bait chargers you cannot otherwise outmaneuver. Chariots, Minotaurs and Dragon Ogres fulfill the role of cavalry admirably.

-T10

Neknoh
29-08-2007, 21:15
Ok, first and foremost, drop Morghur, get a Beastlord with the Crown of Horns, Rune of the True Beast, Chaos Armour and a Greatweapon, he can tear appart most things thrown at him without costing an arm and a leg, and he leads his unit quite well I must say, mark is optional.

Now, also get a Battle Standard Bearer, again, mark is optional, although, if you go Nurgle army, Mark of Nurgle and Armour of Damnation = win

Reduce the Shaman to a Scroll Caddy, throw him into the same unit as the BsB and the Beastlord.

Now, merge the two herds into one of 12 Gors and 14 or so Ungors with a Full Command, throw the Beastlord, BsB and Shaman into this, this is a Superherd.

Swap the Ogres for a unit of 4 Minotaurs of the chosen mark armed with Greatweapons (and lightarmour if Nurgle).

Drop four of the Centigors from each unit, get a second unit of Minotaurs.

Now, this army would be VERY mean, it builds on the Superherd concept, it makes up for its lack of leadership through the Superherd (which will rally at Ld10 as long as the Beastlord is allive), the Superherd has both faster and slower support, and, if you still have the models, two small Herds for harassment should deffinately be added.

There aren't really that many more models you need to get to make this army, give it a try, trust me, you will like it a lot more

nurgle_boy
29-08-2007, 21:27
Ok, I typed out a long list of reasons why beasts dont suck, and tactics that one can use to win, but before I could post it, the forums blacked out again.

basically, I summed it up as-

you are playing badly.

keep your units spaced so they avoid panic chains (units fleeing through unit), and outmaneuver your opponent. dont worry about magic. a lvl1 with 2 scrolls will do, as you can eliminate magic by turn 2 or 3.

centigor, minotaur, and dragon ogres hit hard, dont let them get shot. they also have good LD.

Heards should be kept fairly small (20 strong), always with amusician, and prefereably a character with them, (marked with nurgle where possible)

dont accept every charge, pick and choose your combats. a beast unit can have LD8 for rallying, so no problems there.

zak
29-08-2007, 23:02
In your rant you focused on all of the bad points that the Beasts army suffer from without mentioning any of their strengths which leads me to think you are playing the army all wrong. Most players would kill for the ability to bring multiple units behind the enemies lines. You also failed to mention the abilty to maneuover your troops so that you should be choosing when and where you charge. The majority of your army is M5, with most being well above that. You also have access to marks and fear/terror causing units to counteract fear.

Your list has flaws and these have already been pointed out. I think you need to test these out prior to making such a sweeping comment as the army sucks. I have pretty much every army in the game and the beasts are possibly one of the most effective. In fact I can only think of two games where I have lost and one of those was down to outrageous luck on the part of my opponent.

My only real gripe with the beasts book is the lack of magic items. I try not use the horde book, but I'm pretty much forced to due to the lack/usefulness of the beats magic items.

Finally if you want to see a difficult army to use then try Dark Elves. You'll soon realise that other armies out there are far worse off. Stupidity on your two hardest hitting units!

MarcoPollo
30-08-2007, 00:54
I am a huge fan of BoC and I have had a huge success with them. Granted, I usually supplement the army with mortals and demons, but as a stand alone, they can do well.

As was mentioned before, you can mitigate ld issues with marks. And, the superherd tactic is a very difficult army to fight. Also, warhounds really are cheap and are quite vital with what they can accomplish.

But the best armies that I have put together are most certainly a mix of Beasts, demons, and mortals.

heldane
30-08-2007, 00:54
Morghur
Wargor with armor of damnation , shield, sword of might, mark of undivided. (He leads my beastigors)
Brey Shaman with power familiar ( usually take lore of beasts but not always )

Double beat herds (usually set in ambush )
large block of beastigors with mark of chaos undivided
double small units of hounds which are fielded close to Morghur

Double blocks of 10 centigors
a single unit of 5 chaos ogres

2 chaos giants.



Personally I think that playing with special characters and so many mosnters is a BAD way to go.

For a start, I'd lose Morghur, the ogres and the giants. Not got my armybook with me, but thats probably a saving of 1000 points straight out.

Morghur mutates and kills your troops (iirc)?
Giants are units you have nbo control over in combat, sure stubborn is nice and they have funky attacks but they're still uncontrollable once in BTB.
Chaos ogres have stupidity(again, going from memory)?

Most of the above list that I've just pointed out will cause you to take tests, be they fall over, stupidy, panic from destroyed troops. With a force that is rather deficient in the LD department that doeasnt seem a good idea to me. Also, centigors, another unit that could be uncontrollable due to stupidity or frenzy.

As to what to put in to fill up with(in the order i'd choose).

Battle Standard Bearer
another bray shaman (lvl2)
2 More herds
3-4 Chariots
more bestigor
more hounds


I used to play wiht a 1250 list that had more models on the table than yours has at 2500 and it fared well. the only times I had major issues were gunlines.

Dan

kyussinchains
30-08-2007, 08:19
Chaos ogres have stupidity(again, going from memory)?

nope, I assume you're thinking of chaos trolls


centigors, another unit that could be uncontrollable due to stupidity or frenzy.

true, but both stupidity and frenzy make you immune to psychology, and the chances of them going stupid are less than 1/12. I'd recommend he keep the centigors, but reduce the unit sizes from 10 to 6

drop an ogre and give them great weapons, heavy armour and shields (if you arent already)

drop a giant, and drop morghur, use these points to buy a battle standard, and more beastherds.

The SkaerKrow
30-08-2007, 09:28
Beastmen can be one of the most devastating armies in the game, but you have to know how to play them. Block infantry and Cav MSU tactics aren't going to help you all that much when playing an army of lightly armored combat skirmishers. Beastmen do not "blow," not even close. They just aren't the right army for you.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
30-08-2007, 13:11
2500 pts

Morghur
Wargor with armor of damnation , shield, sword of might, mark of undivided. (He leads my beastigors)
Brey Shaman with power familiar ( usually take lore of beasts but not always )

Double beat herds (usually set in ambush )
large block of beastigors with mark of chaos undivided
double small units of hounds which are fielded close to Morghur

Double blocks of 10 centigors
a single unit of 5 chaos ogres

2 chaos giants.
First off, I'm not a fan of special characters, especially one with the laundry list of abilities Morghur possesses. Yeah, he's good, but to get a true feel for the army, drop him and take a Beastlord with Pelt of the Dark Young, normal hvy armor, Crown of Horns, and weapon/weapon-shield combo of choice. You shoould have 160-220 pts left to spend on other stuff.

Also the Centigors and Ogres are in units that are too big. Make 2 unit of 5 Centigor (and their lovely move thru woods) and get another ogre and use 2 small units of 3 ea.

I'd also drop one of the Giants and get more units of the smaller stuff. Minotaurs are lovely, and they can be given MoCU for free if General has it, plus they pursue 3d6" (useful when you can break the opposition.) Any points left over should be used to beef up the herds.

keudiven
31-08-2007, 01:31
Thank you all for some great advice. I totally agree with the need to add the BsB, which being an experienced player, you would think was a give me. Also I had always fielded my cav in a full block of 10 reguardless of which army I was playing. I further agree that reducing their number and reinvesting the points is a smart move. Also taking the ogres down to 4 and adding the great weapons seems like a reasonable move.

In all honesty, the beasts are my 2nd army of 4 and I am not completely finished with them. That being said I have to make the army more based on what I have rather than on exactly what I want. I have a really nice and balanced collection so far, but not complete. I will keep Morghur as I really like him ( I do not use him every battle, and quite often play many different configs of the army. Sometimes magic heavy, sometimes combat heavy )

I will reduce the centigors in number, add the BsB, likely at the expense of the shaman ( 4 characters total and Morghur counts as 2 ). I believe I will keep the double giants as they have ALWAYS been tremendously effective for me.

Anyways, I will tweek this army and see what happens. Again thanks all for the great advice. I will from time to time get frustrated, but I shall never surrender

zak
31-08-2007, 01:39
I've always been a big fan of giants (and no I'm not employed by GW to try to flog you one) and think they are very useful. They are great for causing multiple terror tests and can break large units single-handed. Ok they may fail occassionally, but more often than not they are there at the end of the game.

Except when I play my friends Empire army with cannons galore. Ouch!

Dayhan
31-08-2007, 01:50
Well Zak's 3k beastman army totaly Destroyed my chaos force tonight. It was that bad I gave in on turn 5. I couldn't pass a dam leadership test for love or money. His Giant just stomped my marauders before I could mount any kind of defence. And finally my chaos Lord on Dragon was kept stuck in one place unable to attack for 2 turns due to Beast lore magic. Dam Dam and double Dam. One of those game where it just got to the point of not being fun to play. Well done Zak and next time revenge will be mine.....

Urgat
31-08-2007, 10:28
true, but both stupidity and frenzy make you immune to psychology
Sorry what? Stupidity doesn't make you immune to psychology (well, they do when they fail their stupidity test, but that's hardly what I'd call a bonus).

badgeraddict
31-08-2007, 10:57
Sorry what? Stupidity doesn't make you immune to psychology (well, they do when they fail their stupidity test, but that's hardly what I'd call a bonus).

Cracked me up!

Gazak Blacktoof
31-08-2007, 11:05
( I do not use him every battle, and quite often play many different configs of the army. Sometimes magic heavy, sometimes combat heavy )

I would recommend not changing your army constantly. Find a decent configuration and stick with it for a dozen or so games to get the feel for it, then mix it up.

Anvilbrow
01-09-2007, 06:37
Wow. I must be a genius.:rolleyes: I ran Beasts in the campaign and was 5-1 when GW (bless their infinite wisdom) decided I must be a cheater and wouldn't let me post any more games. Ironically, four of the wins were posted by my opponents.

I qualify this with the fact that I have played for 25 years now, played and won numerous tournaments with Empire, Orcs and Dwarfs mainly, and play with a group that includes two WFBGT best generals and a best overall and a slew of other veteran gamers with about fifty GTs attended between us.

Could be beginner's luck (I have never really played Beasts), but I attribute the success to three things:

Mobility.
Numbers.
Undivided.

I run almost exclusively undivided troops (Bestigor, Chariots, Minotaurs) with hounds and herds. The rerolls on all psychology is AWESOME, even on LD 7-8
I usually have between ten and fourteen units in 2000 points, so I can often overwhelm single units of my opponent.
They are rather fast overall, which when combined with skirmishing, often allows me to choose fights I know I'll win (combos are key Minos plus herd, chariot plus herd etc.)

There are several players of Beasts in my area, and surprisingly they all do pretty well, at least holding their own.

zak
01-09-2007, 22:09
I usually give my minotaurs and Bestigors the Mark of Slaanesh. This means that I have a solid base of troops that aren't going to run and at about 20 points for the mark it isn't exhorbitant in price either.
I agree that the Mark of Chaos Undivided is under rated and my chariots have charged more of ten than not because of this.

Dayhan. Chin up. My luck won't hold out forever. Next time you might pass a leadership test.....even with the reroll. The Chaos dice gods deserted you that night. And I love Beast Cowers. Such an under rated spell!

Jampire
02-09-2007, 23:20
Here you have a race whose whole culture is based on violence and brutality where death is a way of life. But if you even loose resolution by 1, you will undoubtedly run. IF you esentially tie but the enemy has a musician and you don't , you will run. For the love of God, that orc right there beat on his drum, run for you lives.

Do you realise that a common woodelf archer is as inspiring to his army as is Kazrok? Thats right, The current greatest beastman alive, of which legends are told, who is considered almost a tactical genius among his race, is just as able a general as is the high elf who carries the ammo for the bolt thrower.


I just had to post and say that I laughed so damn hard when I read this that I woke my girlfriend who's a very deep sleeper. Easily the funniest thing I've read on these forums. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. (No this is not sarcasm, this is truly, truly funny).

kyussinchains
15-09-2007, 11:14
Sorry what? Stupidity doesn't make you immune to psychology (well, they do when they fail their stupidity test, but that's hardly what I'd call a bonus).

I meant that if the centigors go stupid or become frenzied then they are immune to psychology, which was a big complaint from the OP, that his army is vulnerable to psychology, at least they wont panic off the table or run from fear causers

Kerill
15-09-2007, 21:26
Seems straightforward enough, get a doombull amd lots of minotaurs, thats where BOC power is in 7th edition, especially since the doombull now gets a look out sir roll in bestigor.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-09-2007, 03:25
I apologize in advance, but my sensibilities are offended that nobody has already said this in 3 pages.

In response to the thread title: Only the ones with the mark of Slannesh.

pox
16-09-2007, 05:47
milk just shot out my nose, rioghan. well played, good sir. I know I posted earlier, but I played a 3,500 game with only BoC against wood elves, and massacred them. its all about the herds, in huge numbers. nothing like having 75 beastmen arrive behind his army, with a few no-magic wargors to even any fights.

I still feel the strength of beasts lies in there core choices, and having the general with ambush. you cannot do it with a doombull or daemon prince. I used three units of 25 herds, three units of 25 bestigors, three chariots, 10 ogres with heavy armour and shield, and 36 warhounds. total of 14 ambushing units, so all three herds, two wargors, and two units of six hounds came in behind him. (a few got lost, but they still got to the party eventually.)

I used one special choice, and no rare.

MarcoPollo
17-09-2007, 02:05
I played a player who used two giants in tandem. A nasty combo that can hold a flank, or break one up. That's 12 terror causing wounds. If you do alot of ambushing, then these guys can hold up the front of a unit while the regular herds whittle at the less tough back end.

But as was mentioned earlier, the most successful Pure BoC are the doombull, minotaur armies of khorne.

the1stpip
17-09-2007, 09:54
I agree with pox.

I run a pure Beasts army (the only thing I use in HoC are Furies, and fit well) and all of my units are Undivided. I use a Beastlord so I can ambush.

Nobody likes a bucket load of angry gors turning up behind them. This is the way forward.

And I never seem to have had any luck with minotaurs..? Don't know why?

zak
17-09-2007, 14:21
Minotaurs are fairly over rated. They are basic strength four and toughness four with no armour. You really have to cause lots of wounds when you charge or otherwise you'll get broken. I would like to see light and heavy armour options in the new book and minotaur hero's.

GranFarfar
17-09-2007, 19:38
Minotaurs are fairly over rated. They are basic strength four and toughness four with no armour. You really have to cause lots of wounds when you charge or otherwise you'll get broken. I would like to see light and heavy armour options in the new book and minotaur hero's.

Overrated? Compare them with almost every other ogre-size unit there is, they are dirst cheap for what they do.

zak
17-09-2007, 20:25
Cheap yes. However, they are vulnerable if they are charged. I never said they were worthless. I just feel that they could do with some upgrade options and are not as good as some of the other choices(kroxigor/woodkin/basic bull ogres).

logan054
17-09-2007, 20:39
Im sorry but minotaurs arnt as good as ogres, kroxigor and the like, are you made, lets look here, better WS, better I for starts, then we have marks

Khorne, so 4 strength 6 attacks each or 5 strength 4 and generates +1 dispel dice, yeah, pretty rubbish hey!
nurgle, 4+ save, so great stats for the points and pretty good save
tzeentch, well, its cheap and +1 power dice
Undivided, rerol failed psychology tests, it dont cost anything extra so cant complain really
Slaanesh, immune to psychology cant be sniffed at

So, kroxigor have strength 7, big whoppie, minotaurs are still going be beating them combat, just do the maths, your going to kill one and half, if the minoturs charge they are going to kill two no problem and still have a fighting chance if they take the charge.

Against ogres it just isnt funny, a unit of 4 khorne minotaurs has 16 strength 6 attacks on the charge hitting a 3+m id put my money on them killing 3 ogres, hitting back your on 4s to hit and wound.

dont forget the 3D6 purse move, just as good as cav

many times i have seen mine minotaurs charged by cav and still come up on top, other times i have watched as heavy cav fail the charge only to receive the charge from me.

I have to say they are one of my fav chaos units next to spawn.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-09-2007, 20:50
Ummm...actually, Ushabti are by far the best Ogre-sized unit in the game.

Base S6 attacks, Heavy Armour, don't run from combat, and can be speedily healed.

Minotaurs simply don't compare!

kyussinchains
17-09-2007, 21:04
ushabti are good but they are not the best ogre sized unit in the game by a long way.

they are comparatively slow, cannot march, and crumble when they lose combat, couple that with an inability to flee charges and it makes them a hard hitting, but very inflexible unit.

logan054
17-09-2007, 21:56
Ummm...actually, Ushabti are by far the best Ogre-sized unit in the game.

Base S6 attacks, Heavy Armour, don't run from combat, and can be speedily healed.

Minotaurs simply don't compare!

and what use is a 5+ save against attacks strength 5 and above? they are both strength 6, minotaurs win out with all the options available to them, in the end thats what makes a good unit, versatility, you combine this with the stats and you have amazing unit.

Not breaking isnt all that great, i think personally i like the option to flee a charge i know im not going to be able to take (fair enough not all mintour builds can but most can), the healing is great if it gets cast, i know being a khorne player i certainly wouldnt let you caste that one your unit (and i usually have a nice stockade of dispel dice, more than enough to deal with a TK magic phase). Another thing to bear in mind with healing them is that actually need to survive the combat after crumble, it isnt that hard to to take them out in a single round.

gortexgunnerson
18-09-2007, 09:05
I think their is also a considerable points difference between them. Ushabti are 65 points a model and minotaurs are 46ish with GW thats close to a 50% mark up. Cant really compare directly when so different in points as you getting 3 minotaurs to ever 2 Ushabti

GranFarfar
18-09-2007, 09:19
Cheap yes. However, they are vulnerable if they are charged. I never said they were worthless. I just feel that they could do with some upgrade options and are not as good as some of the other choices(kroxigor/woodkin/basic bull ogres).

Yes they are, but so are all ogre sized. Well, tree-kins excepted I would say. And as gotrex said. The price difference is a big thing.



Ummm...actually, Ushabti are by far the best Ogre-sized unit in the game.

Base S6 attacks, Heavy Armour, don't run from combat, and can be speedily healed.

Minotaurs simply don't compare!

I don't know if I can agree. I find their M5 to be to much of a drawback. Yes, they can with the aid of spells charge a good 15", but with a basic move of 5 and not being able to march they are very, very hard to get into the right position.

But otherwise, their fighting value is great. S6 in initative order is good.

squalie
18-09-2007, 18:11
We can bring units into this all day, but he just said that Minotaurs are overrated. Which is absolute hogwash. For their points they are a definate staple, and everytime (for whatever reason) you don't include them in your list, you wish you did. For Chaos, Minotaurs are a bargain.

skavenguy13
19-09-2007, 01:21
Well, you either have to minimize your weaknesses or maximize your strengths. And this without much tweaking to the list actually. I never played with beasts, but I guess this should help anyway.

Examples:
your army is pretty unpredictable and fast. Either make it more predictable (marks of slaanesh, change giants for dragon-ogres/shaggoths) and play safely. Or try to confuse your enemy with daring or unusual moves, or use that speed very aggresively. Not knowing what your army will do is a weakness and advantage to both players.

Your army has a level 2 caster (5PD), 6DD and 0 scrolls. Which means a very average magic phase. However, I believe your shaman is rather costy for that effect. You could make him a caddy and drop the level 2, for 5DD and 2 scrolls, which should be very safe in most games. Or you could try to go get enemy wizards very fast so they can't dispel you anymore (and less trouble in his magic phase). If you struggle in the magic phases (your phase if you payed a lot for your wizards, his phase if you have caddies) then killing those magic dice are objective #2 (#1 being "kill and don't die").

You have little things that can get charged and have good chances of staying. You could cancel that with a BSB. Or you could just base your strategy on never getting charge, even at the cost of killing a bit less (avoiding baits) You're faster than most armies, you HAVE to use that to your advantage.

Your army lacks LD. You can cancel that with marks, or with another general, or by taking larger units (much less panic tests). Or you could play aggresively and not give your opponent the opportunity to give you LD tests.

And just one final thing: don't get flank-charged! It really really sucks for hard-hitters to get charged in the flank. Because even though you don't have ranks to get negated, you'll have much less kills. As a skaven player, that's the usual method for taking out strong stuff. Along with shooting until they're weak enough.