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Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 10:53
Here's my potential Open War army list for your viewing:

Terminator 4xTerminators. 1xCommander- Chaplain. 375

Tactical 6xTacticals. 3xRhinos. 1xRazorback- Twin-lascannon.1xCommander- Supreme Commander. 425

Tactical 6xTacticals. 3xRhinos. 1xHunter. 1xRazorback- Twin-lascannon. 400

Tactical 6xTacticals. 3xRhinos. 1xHunter. 1xRazorback- Twin-lascannon. 400

Tactical 6xTacticals. 1xCommander- Chaplain. 350

Devastator 4xDevastators. 2xRhinos. 1xHunter. 1xRazorback- Twin-lascannon. 350

Predator 4xPredators- 4xAnnihilator. - 300

Thunderhawk 1xThunderhawk Gunship. - 200

Thunderhawk 1xThunderhawk Gunship. - 200

Total: 3000

My Supreme Commander is my BTS objective, I know, bad call. I tried swopping a few things around, and making other stuff more expensive to make something else the BTS but it didn't work. So I'll just have to be careful with that formation.

Thanks for any advice, but I consider Warhounds in a Marine list to be the Assault Cannons of Epic. They are not a Marine unit, they are not Chapter Armoury- I like to believe my Marines can fight a war without help from big brother, despite all the Marine lists I've seen doubting it.

Chaos and Evil
24-09-2007, 12:17
Drop the Predators and replace them with a Devestator formation with attached Librarian.

Almost as much ranged fire, faster, can enter terrain (And gain cover saves), and have much more of a punch in an Engagement.

EDIT:

Oh and I always take at least one Warhound, not because they're a super-weapon (They're good, but easy to break!), no, I take them because I'm playing Epic. :D

Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 12:48
Drop the Predators and replace them with a Devestator formation with attached Librarian.

There was originally 2 Predator formation, one already has been replaced with a Devastator formation for the reasons you give. But I'd like a variety of models.


Almost as much ranged fire, faster, can enter terrain (And gain cover saves), and have much more of a punch in an Engagement.


The Predators are a little fragile if exposed to a lot of enemy, but how are Dev's faster? Why can't Predators enter terrain (albeit cautiously), what good is a Cover save when the Dev's armour save is better? And I've noticed almost every Engagement I've undertook has gone against me, the small number of Marines works against them in the Assault bonuses.
So in most situations I'll take a Sustained Fire instead of Engagement, the enemy doesn't get to shoot back, and I don't end up with a broken unit.


Oh and I always take at least one Warhound, not because they're a super-weapon (They're good, but easy to break!), no, I take them because I'm playing Epic

Hadn't thought of that, they are nice models. It was just the general consensus that Marines are supposed to field 1000pts of Warhounds as standard otherwise they can't cut it that bugged me.


I'm more interesting in advice on the Tournament Mission. The placement of Objective markers is counter-intuitive, you want to place them in towns, on hills, etc as that's a fitting objective- but competitively that just gives your opponent tough Garrison placements.
So competitively you have to put objectives in boring open spaces between terrain pieces, or am I missing something?

The objectives themselves are a bitch to remember, but that's half the fun, you have to really think about it.

Basically deny the enemy 3 whilst gaining 3 yourself. Holding your own 3 markers and keeping the enemy in their half seems the way for IG- it stops them gaining Take and Hold, and Blitzkrieg, etc.

But Marine armies are too small and short-ranged to do that, I can't afford to sit a formation on the board edge. So what's the best objectives to go after with Marines?

Hena
24-09-2007, 17:58
The Predators are a little fragile if exposed to a lot of enemy, but how are Dev's faster? Why can't Predators enter terrain (albeit cautiously), what good is a Cover save when the Dev's armour save is better? And I've noticed almost every Engagement I've undertook has gone against me, the small number of Marines works against them in the Assault bonuses.
Devs can be faster due to 5cm disembark. But it's not really that much help. However Preds are faster with advance (since most times you won't keep units within the transports).

Cover is very usable due to -1 to-hit that it gives.


So in most situations I'll take a Sustained Fire instead of Engagement, the enemy doesn't get to shoot back, and I don't end up with a broken unit.
In general marines are better in engage than firing (tanks in general being the exception). Tactical firing on advance at tanks hit once, but in engage hit 3 times. And if you win the target breaks unlike when giving 1 or 2 BMs.



I'm more interesting in advice on the Tournament Mission. The placement of Objective markers is counter-intuitive, you want to place them in towns, on hills, etc as that's a fitting objective- but competitively that just gives your opponent tough Garrison placements.
So competitively you have to put objectives in boring open spaces between terrain pieces, or am I missing something?
Remember that once you get to the objective, you need to hold it. This usually is easier with cover. So it's a double edged sword. With Marines who can assault targets the cover won't matter that much as there is no -1 in assault. Though cover saves are annoying.


But Marine armies are too small and short-ranged to do that, I can't afford to sit a formation on the board edge. So what's the best objectives to go after with Marines?
I usually use whirlwinds for that. They have 90cm range on sustain and that in general allows some targets. Also with fast units (like preds or infantry with transports) you can march on third and get to one or two critical objectives quite easily.

And with rulebook rules, landing a Thunderhawk on objective is very effective. We have disallowed aircrafts controlling or contesting conditions on turn they land for that very reason.

Chaos and Evil
24-09-2007, 18:44
The Predators are a little fragile if exposed to a lot of enemy, but how are Dev's faster?
As Hena says, with the 5cm disembark move.


Why can't Predators enter terrain (albeit cautiously)
They can, if you move less than 5cm per move, otherwise it's dangerous terrain tests all round!


what good is a Cover save when the Dev's armour save is better?
Because being in cover grants -1 to hit, which is a considerable thing in Epic as to hit is also to wound.


And I've noticed almost every Engagement I've undertook has gone against me, the small number of Marines works against them in the Assault bonuses.
Marines win their games through careful usage of Engagements... work out how to use Marines in Engagements properly, and you've found the spirit of how Marines work in Epic.


So in most situations I'll take a Sustained Fire instead of Engagement, the enemy doesn't get to shoot back, and I don't end up with a broken unit.
If that enemy is Imperial Guard, Tau, Eldar, heck possibly even some Ork armies, you will lose that long range gunfight eight times out of ten.


Try using Devestator formations to Support Fire into Engagements undertaken by Tactical or Assault formations.

You move the Devestators first (Probably a double move to get a Crossfire bonus), fire at your intended target (Maybe get a kill or two), then retain the initiative (Which Marines are very good at due to their superb initiative rating), and Engage the target with your Tactical formation.

The Tacticals then fight the Engagement and the Devestators pour in supporting fire.

That's one way of making the best use you can of Marines' small numbers...

Cheers.

Master Jeridian
24-09-2007, 20:43
Devs can be faster due to 5cm disembark. But it's not really that much help. However Preds are faster with advance (since most times you won't keep units within the transports).

Cover is very usable due to -1 to-hit that it gives.

Aye, I know, Predators can use cover too.


In general marines are better in engage than firing (tanks in general being the exception). Tactical firing on advance at tanks hit once, but in engage hit 3 times. And if you win the target breaks unlike when giving 1 or 2 BMs.

Not sure I follow, Tacticals in Engagements still only get 1 attack, with a slightly better roll needed.
I've been more in the 'if you lose' scenario when I've tried.


I usually use whirlwinds for that. They have 90cm range on sustain and that in general allows some targets. Also with fast units (like preds or infantry with transports) you can march on third and get to one or two critical objectives quite easily.

Wow, I just took one look at the 45cm range and assumed they where useless. Rereading of the Barrage rules prove your 90cm, hmm, this may change thinks.


Because being in cover grants -1 to hit, which is a considerable thing in Epic as to hit is also to wound.

Aye, but with careful placement of Rhino's I have my own mobile cover.


If that enemy is Imperial Guard, Tau, Eldar, heck possibly even some Ork armies, you will lose that long range gunfight eight times out of ten.

It was IG, the units be it Tank Companies or Infantry Companies are simply too large to beat in Engagements. Not only did they get a weight of fire to kill me off, they get the outnumber, etc bonuses. Concentrated firepower on said target has proven more reliable, and has yet to result in breaking my own units in my own actions.

The only time I've been successful with an Engagement was when my Termies charge an Artillery Battery. The Battery was sorely outnumbered and outclassed, so it was a safe bet.

For the foreseeable future I'll reserve Engagements for things like Batteries- isolated, small formations. Engaging larger formations has just resulted in my army dying and breaking faster.


Try using Devestator formations to Support Fire into Engagements undertaken by Tactical or Assault formations.

Aye, I've done this, I've kept my army together to Support Fire whilst engaging from a direction that restricts the enemies Support Fire. It still goes against me, of course my dice have been atrocious but blaming them doesn't help the situation.

The 3 Rhino Mounted Tactical units are designed to stick together, pour firepower out and if possible Engage as one. Only think stopping me is really not wanting 3 formations to break in one action...


Thanks for the advice.

Chaos and Evil
25-09-2007, 00:00
It was IG, the units be it Tank Companies or Infantry Companies are simply too large to beat in Engagements.

Trust us, Marines are an army that excels in Engagements.

You're only just learning how to play Marines in Epic I guess, so keep at it, try a few more double-tap Engagements (It's important to have a supporting formation to lay a blast marker so that you'll be getting a couple of combat resolution points for blast markers before you even engage with the second formation), and as Hena says, take some Whirlwinds, as they're awesome against IG infantry! :)

Hena
25-09-2007, 05:48
Not sure I follow, Tacticals in Engagements still only get 1 attack, with a slightly better roll needed.
Well I meant the Tactical Detachment as a whole :). 6 * AT6+ => 1 hit. 6 * FF/CC 4+ => 3 hits.

Leman Russ company. First after russes have activated move the Tactical detachment near and fire (cause 1BM). Then move the Speeders into crossfire position and fire (possibly 3BM more if you manage to kill one). They have 5+ save from MW in crossfire. Next turn sustain with speeders that should kill one or two more and retain and engage with tacticals. Get into CC and they are toast.

Master Jeridian
26-09-2007, 15:21
Aye, that's a nice theory Hena. It assumes the IG army doesn't have anything to support the tanks, and/or that the tanks won't react to this next turn.

I'll stick to Engaging only formations that are numerically smaller than the assaulting SM's- which boils down to small units like Artillery Batteries. Anything larger and I'll prefer to pour fire into it with Sustains, Advance and Doubles- whilst trying to stay out of LOS and/or range of enemy support.

I've had nothing but bad experiences trying to assault formations that are larger than the attackers, and this is even with the support of multiple formations, etc, etc. It's just not worth giving my opponent a free action of 'shooting' and breaking one of my formations in the process.

Hena
26-09-2007, 17:54
I've pulled that off on a Gargant and don't see why it wouldn't be done on IG Leman Russes. Marines should have more activations than enemy. This leaves you chance to move last with few activations (or last enough that enemy cannot change the situation).

Alternatively just pack a Terminator det with Chaplain into Thunderhawk and air assault in cc. With 5 Macroweapons (of which 4 should hit), they will rip them apart.

Master Jeridian
28-09-2007, 21:20
Thanks guys, here's some pics:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/Jeridian/Specialist%20Games/EpicShadowScorpionsTactical2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/Jeridian/Specialist%20Games/EpicShadowScorpionsTactical1.jpg

And the 40k comparison:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/Jeridian/Specialist%20Games/EpicShadowScorpionsComparison.jpg

daemonkin
02-11-2007, 10:07
very nice paint jobs on both scales.
Post your results.

D.

Chaos and Evil
02-11-2007, 10:28
Hey that's cool!

Are they your own chapter?

Master Jeridian
02-11-2007, 16:29
Hehe, yeah, the Shadow Scorpions Chapter. The bright (scorpion) green has been known to temporarily blind my opponents.

I haven't had a game with my latest 3000pts list yet, most likely won't for quite a long time. GW's attempt to kill off epic that isn't 28mm is pretty succesful around here.

Chaos and Evil
02-11-2007, 16:39
Lol thread title should have notified me of that really. :D


Where abouts are you, maybe we can find you an opponent or three?

J0ker
02-11-2007, 17:17
Interesting list and love the marines.

Out of interest what are you loading into the thawks? Air assaults from Thawks filled with 1 dev, 1 assault det and chaplains are a great way to apply a concentrated assault on formations of almost any size, particularly if supported by land speeders to soften up and apply some blast markers first. Ok, it is expensive , but is a real sledgehammer that can take out pretty large formations with preparation.

Master Jeridian
02-11-2007, 20:04
I'm in the Manchester, UK area if anyone wants to visit the GW Manchester on Mondays.

The Tactical unit with Chaplain and no Rhino's most often goes in a Thunderhawk, this is usually the last activation so no enemy formation can react to the landing.

The other Thunderhawk is often empty, it is ideal for the first (or second after the Teleporting Termies) activation to harass small artillery batteries.