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Irisado
11-12-2007, 21:01
Having been a long time player of Space Marine/Titan Legions, I have been considering bringing myself up to date by bringing out my old armies and playtesting them with the Epic Armageddon rules to see if I like them.

I have downloaded mountains of rules from the Specialist Games Website, and from what I've read so far, it looks promising.

I am, however, somewhat baffled by the number of different versions of the army lists, particularly for the Eldar. Does anybody know which is the current list which should be used for them?

There also seem to be all sorts of additions to the main rules, and it's not clear whether these are official or unofficial changes, so if anyone could help me out on this matter I'd be grateful.

It seems to me that the entire Epic gaming system is in something of a state of flux, with dedicated gamers trying to get better army lists made official, but not getting much help from GW. Is that a fair assessment? I remember when Space Marine was given as high a profile in White Dwarf as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K. It seems such a long time ago now.

Hena
12-12-2007, 10:36
You've described it almost correctly.

There was ERC which should have updated the rules. However that broke down (perhaps due to few guys and SG lagging ... don't really know). So currently there is no official source that is able to do it. All official stuff that is in Rulebook section and Experimental rules section.

Neal Hunt is part of ERC that actually still does something. And he has put out a set of experimental rules, which can be found below. It nicely tells how agreed what change is.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/wiki/tiki-list_file_gallery.php?galleryId=4

CyberShadow
12-12-2007, 15:35
I am sure that we can help to steer you in the right direction...

Core Rules - The main rule book, downloaded from SG is still valid. Officially, this is the version to play. There has been one set of updates to this, and this list is also for download. However, there are a number of ideas running around, which are fully supported by players, but have not yet been given the official stamp. My advice to you is simply play the core rule book to start off. Get the hang of the game, as the updates are relatively minor and it is more important that you have an enjoyable and interesting game rather than using the most absolute up to date rules at this stage.

When you have played a few games, look through the update list that Hena pointed you towards, and mix in some of the updates. (There is a fan produced integrated book which includes the core rules, updated with the changes, and the various force lists which are 'officially sactioned'. This is available here: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=69;t=9988 )

Eldar - The core list in Swordwind and available online is the current official version. However, there is a version 1.8 which is available here:

http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9784&whichpage=1

This updates the core, Biel Tann list, and adds the other lists. There are currently lists for all six major craftworlds, and others besides. However, while these are treated as official by players, they have not yet been granted official status...

Beginning to see a pattern yet?

Again, I would use the downloaded version first, and then look over the changes and add them to your games after a couple of tests. You dont need to look at the other Craftworlds at all, so this should cut out some confusion.

If you let us know which particular forces you are interested in, we can highlight the lists and other issues.

Welcome to the game.

Also, for a list of all of the available forces and current status, etc, look here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Epic%20Armageddon%20Army%20Lists

Note that there are a lot of lists here, and many are fan-based, but it should give you a pointer to the latest version of the list that you are interested in.

All the best, and I hope that this helps.

Irisado
13-12-2007, 18:48
Thanks so much for those links, and the detailed replies.

I've managed to download and print off the core rules, and I've also downloaded all the Eldar and Chaos stuff I could find, because they are the two armies I plau outside of the core rules (my other army is Orks).

From what I've read so far, it's all very different to how Space Marine was played, although there are still a handful of similarities.

I'll have a look at the tactical wargames site next, hopefully this weekend if I get the chance.

My Eldar army is probably going to be Alaitoc as that would mirror my 40K army, and that's how some of my original models have been painted. I have a couple of Wave Serpents painted in the colours of Alaitoc, which I really don't want to repaint. Funny how they used to move along the ground, and now they are skimmers.

I had to laugh at the appendix in Swordwind, where GW explain that the imperium got their classifications of some Eldar vehicles wrong...Still, it's very useful, as it means I can use all my old models.

For Chaos, I have got so many old models that just don't seem to fit into any list now. I'm thinking of Trolls and Minotaurs in particular. I've got loads of Daemon Engines though, so my army is practically screaming Lost and the Damned, but I'll have to work on the infantry units. Any suggestions for making up characters for a L&D Force?

CyberShadow
14-12-2007, 12:39
For Chaos, I have got so many old models that just don't seem to fit into any list now. I'm thinking of Trolls and Minotaurs in particular. I've got loads of Daemon Engines though, so my army is practically screaming Lost and the Damned, but I'll have to work on the infantry units. Any suggestions for making up characters for a L&D Force?

Hi. Trolls and Minotaurs are used as Big Mutants now. I am sure that there used to be a 'counts as' list around...

tabletopnews
14-12-2007, 14:44
Hi. Trolls and Minotaurs are used as Big Mutants now. I am sure that there used to be a 'counts as' list around...

The "official" LatD test army has, IIRC, Trolls and Minotaurs as Big Mutants so you'd be quite fine using them.

You should also keep a lookout on eBay for some of the older Guard and Chaos sprues as those have all sorts of character minis that you can use for an LatD force.

Moscovian
15-12-2007, 17:34
The list of armies is pretty extensive. Despite the fact that many of them are not official, the majority of them are widely accepted as playable. Usually they will be described as slightly overpowered or slightly underpowered. Oddly enough the official Swordwind armies have all been stamped by the community as overpowered (thus the updates) so don't let the Officialdom get too crazy. The best thing to do is take an army that you like (such as Alaitoc), do a search for threads relating to it on the various boards, then decide if you like it. You'll find that the players have been quite dedicated to keeping these lists balanced.

Hena
15-12-2007, 20:57
My Eldar army is probably going to be Alaitoc as that would mirror my 40K army, and that's how some of my original models have been painted. I have a couple of Wave Serpents painted in the colours of Alaitoc, which I really don't want to repaint. Funny how they used to move along the ground, and now they are skimmers.
Remember that the Swordwind list can be used to any eldar craftworld as well. They say so in the beginning. Generally E:A players don't really worry about such things. So start by playing with Swordwind eldar and then move to unofficial Alaitoc list.


For Chaos, I have got so many old models that just don't seem to fit into any list now. I'm thinking of Trolls and Minotaurs in particular. I've got loads of Daemon Engines though, so my army is practically screaming Lost and the Damned, but I'll have to work on the infantry units. Any suggestions for making up characters for a L&D Force?
I would suggest getting that Chaos Infantry sprue. It has some models for characters (I use them for my LatD army). Perhaps even buying IG character pack would help there :). DRM doesn't seem to pack character in small sets, so that doesn't help unless you buy some infantry as well (special forces for example).

Also many use the old riders (juggers, disk riders and so forth) as Chaos Marine bikers. Flesh hounds would be Chaotic Beasts in both LatD and Black Legion. The god specific lists would even allow combination of demon engines and chaos marines (though these are experimental lists still).

Irisado
17-12-2007, 20:27
Thanks for all the advice, it's been a great help.

I've managed to have a look at all the links now, and when I get the chance I'll download some of the relevant information from the Tactical Wargames site to complement the material I've already downloaded from the Specialist Games site.

I think I will try out Swordwind first, just to get the hang of how the Eldar play now. I get the impression that they are very different to how they were in Space Marine. Apart from Biel Tan, Aspect Warriors are much more limited for a start. I'm pleased I can still use all my old skimmer though.

Thanks for the tip about Chaos Hena, I saw that box set on GW's online store, and it could well be quite useful. I'll have a raid of my bits box from Space Marine though and see what I can find there.

Just out of interest, is it legal to use the two different kinds of bases in one army, or do they all have to be the same? I know that the old bases are allowed (which is the main reason I became interested in playing the new rules, since it no longer would mean rebasing my armies), but can they be mixed with the new ones (ie if I were to buy some of the new infantry) in the same army?

Chaos and Evil
17-12-2007, 23:41
Just out of interest, is it legal to use the two different kinds of bases in one army, or do they all have to be the same? I know that the old bases are allowed (which is the main reason I became interested in playing the new rules, since it no longer would mean rebasing my armies), but can they be mixed with the new ones (ie if I were to buy some of the new infantry) in the same army?

Yes it is perfectly legal.

tabletopnews
18-12-2007, 00:39
Just out of interest, is it legal to use the two different kinds of bases in one army, or do they all have to be the same?

To expand on what C&E has said, the rules have limitations on base sizes but as long as the bases are within those limitations then you are okay.

I have the Epic 40,000 bases, Warmaster bases, round Litko bases and even coins in my collection.

CyberShadow
18-12-2007, 05:17
And, to expand on 'tabletops' expansion... I use different sized and shaped bases in my Epic Tau force. I use the base to help to identify the stand. No problem.

Irisado
18-12-2007, 20:33
That's really good news. Thank you.

Hena
19-12-2007, 04:14
Exact rules of basing is covered in the rulebook section 1.1.2, page 10. Which is with regards to size of the base (both rectangular and square are within this unsurprisingly).


• A stand may be no more than 40mm and no less than
5mm across in any direction.
• A stand must be at least 20mm across in one direction
(ie, a 5mm by 5mm stand is not allowed, but a 5mm by
20mm stand would be okay).

Irisado
20-12-2007, 22:25
It's my favourite rule in the entire book, because it allows me to field all my old infantry stands!

I'll hopefully get a game at some point in 2008, if I can persuade anybody to play, and then I'll let you all know how I get on with the new rules.

Hena
21-12-2007, 06:34
While I really think that getting new players is a good thing (and hope you'll convert new players) a thread below might help in finding opponents. Also UK seems to have lively tournament scene (6 - 8 or something along those lines planned for next year), so would suggest going to forums at SG and follow postings there for tournaments as they appear.

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=10;t=3809

Irisado
21-12-2007, 11:32
Thanks for that link. I'll check that out.

I didn't realise the tournament scene was so active either, so I'll have to get painting all my models in case I get the chance to attend one.

Hena
21-12-2007, 13:01
Forgot to add the link to the SG site. So this thread here for UK tournaments.
http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13720

Irisado
23-12-2007, 22:16
I've been re-reading the core rules again today, and something quite strange struck me (no not a flying object :) just before anyone comes up with that joke), in that I can't find where it says in the rules what happens to infantry inside a transport vehicle when it is destroyed by a normal weapon.

There is an explanation for what happens when a transport is destroyed by a macro-weapon, but as far as I can see there is no explanation for what occurs in the case of a normal weapon written with that.

I cannot see an explanation in the section on transports either.

I may have just missed it. Can anyone help me out?

Chaos and Evil
23-12-2007, 22:27
They take armour saves (Should they have them) as they dismount from their destroyed transport.

Patriarch
24-12-2007, 10:53
@ Irisado - you haven't missed it, it was accidentally left out of the rulebook. It's in the Epic FAQ on the Specialist Games website.

Irisado
24-12-2007, 16:56
Thanks for clearing that up. I really thought I was going blind, as I just couldn't believe that they would miss something like that out. I'm glad it wasn't me going crazy.

tabletopnews
25-12-2007, 15:34
They take armour saves (Should they have them) as they dismount from their destroyed transport.

Not exactly correct

Q: What happens to transported units if their Transport is destroyed?
A: The units must make an Armour Save or a 6+ Cover Save to survive.

All units at least get a 6+ cover save or their own Armour save if that is higher

Chaos and Evil
25-12-2007, 16:12
True point about the 6+ save if they have no save.

tabletopnews
25-12-2007, 23:22
True point about the 6+ save if they have no save.

I liked it better when it was 5+ though :-)

Chaos and Evil
25-12-2007, 23:46
When was that, during the playtesting for E:A?

tabletopnews
26-12-2007, 01:04
When was that, during the playtesting for E:A?

For most of the playtest. I can't exactly recall when it was changed.

Irisado
26-12-2007, 11:27
Very useful that cover save. It's a big change for me that infantry get a save if their transport is destroyed, since in Space Marine they never got a save at all.

Hena
28-12-2007, 18:58
If they are killed by Macro Weapon, they won't get saves.

Master FAQ on SG boards write

Q: Do troops in a Transport lose all their Armour Saves when the Transport is hit by an MW or TK weapon?
A: No, saves that could be taken if the unit were hit directly by an MW may still be taken. So, for example, Terminators with Reinforced Armour would get a save against a MW hit. But unless the unit has an ability that gives them a save against MW or TK hits they would be destroyed automatically just as if they had been hit by those weapons themselves.