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Dooppie
20-01-2008, 08:50
Hi people.

I have looked too some models on the website from Games workshop/Forge world and Epic seems fun too look at.
Now I like too know:
Why should people play Epic?

malika
20-01-2008, 09:23
Titans... Oh that and the fact that a mega battle in 40k is just a small skirmish in Epic! :evilgrin:

Chaos and Evil
20-01-2008, 11:22
A few reasons:

- It was designed with Titans and Aircraft as part of the core rules system, instead of an add-on that unbalances the game.

- It is nine times more tactically challenging that 40k.

- It is almost impossible to write a 'cheesy' army list in Epic, because the system is so well balanced.

- It's very easy to paint.

- Did I mention TITANS???!?


A quote from Jervis Johnson:

"Epic is meant for experienced wargamers, not experienced rules-lawyers"

If you think you're that kind of person, maybe Epic is for you.

Patriarch
20-01-2008, 11:49
You can play armies the way they are portrayed in the fluff. Giant Ork hordes, Imperial armoured companies with masses of expendable troops, small but elite space marine strike forces, fragile but rapid eldar hosts. etc etc etc. In ways that WH40K just can't capture.

A more tactically interesting game than its big brother. Players take turns to pick a formation, choose its orders and carry them out. Do I stay still and fire at maximum effect, to I sacrifice firepower and capture the objective, or should I move over to support someone else's attack later this turn? Ongoing supressive effect of enemy fire, casualties and morale. I could go on and on...

The designer trusts you to be able to work things out. Cover actually makes things harder to hit, rhinos go faster than Land Raiders.

Heroes are far less important to this game. Most battles are decided by grunts (and their vehicles).

Modelling and painting at 6mm scale is a whole new challenge.

Don't get me wrong, I like WH40k, but the appeal of "move all my units to throw the maximum amount of shooting dice at yours...now it's your turn" wears thin sometimes.

The rules are free to download from SG. Have a look through and see of they appeal:
http://www.specialist-games.com/epic/rulebook.asp

Best of all, it isn't Epic:40,000, the third edition of the game, which was awful except for the models.

Oh, and your "Warseer grumbling" cred goes up several notches. Never mind WH40K CSM daemon nerfing, GW doesn't even think we exist!

Jambo
20-01-2008, 15:10
Why should people play Epic?



- It is nine times more tactically challenging that 40k.
...


You can play armies the way they are portrayed in the fluff. ...

The reason I play Epic is what is touched on by these previous posts, a game of Epic plays out a lot like the stories in the 40k background and the armies are used in the ways they are portrayed.

Space Marines are surprisingly difficult for a new comer to Epic to use as they don't have bullets bounce off them to quite the same degree as in 40k, instead they perform extremely well as a mobile hard hitting elite force that shouldn't allow itself to be bogged down in a fight of attrition. But if used correctly are capable of dealing with enemies many times their number.

Epic is undoubtedly more challenging than 40k, as it rewards players for strategic thinking. Charging headlong into overwhelming numbers in cover will get even the strongest SM's killed. However pour some suppresive fire or an artillery barage (or two) and claim supporting fire from nearby formations and the odds can turn in your favour. Setting up cross fire situations are encouraged by the rules etc.

However this is all achieved in a remarkably easy to understand set of rules, this is probably the system's greatest strength. The units behave as you'd expect but the rules to get them to behave like that are straight forward, again a bit unlike 40k.


Chaos and Evil, I'm curious where you came across the factor of nine times more tactical. I agree but just wondering as to the basis of the rather precise calculation. ;)

Chaos and Evil
20-01-2008, 15:19
Chaos and Evil, I'm curious where you came across the factor of nine times more tactical. I agree but just wondering as to the basis of the rather precise calculation.

I'm not good with irony. :)

I was saying that the level of tactical complexity as compared to 40k is going to be a subjective opinion, and that it can't really be quantified.

Also, 9 is a lot more than 1. :D

Irisado
20-01-2008, 15:22
A few reasons:

- It was designed with Titans and Aircraft as part of the core rules system, instead of an add-on that unbalances the game.

- It is nine times more tactically challenging that 40k.

- It is almost impossible to write a 'cheesy' army list in Epic, because the system is so well balanced.

- It's very easy to paint.

- Did I mention TITANS???!?


A quote from Jervis Johnson:

"Epic is meant for experienced wargamers, not experienced rules-lawyers"

If you think you're that kind of person, maybe Epic is for you.

Quoted for truth!

I have always enjoyed the tactical dimension of Epic. It is so much more tactically demanding than 40K and Fantasy.

I recognise that I'm referring to the old Space Marine gaming system here, but from what I've read and analysed, the Epic Armageddon system appears just as challenging.

Jambo
20-01-2008, 15:30
I'm not good with irony. :)

I was saying that the level of tactical complexity as compared to 40k is going to be a subjective opinion, and that it can't really be quantified.

Also, 9 is a lot more than 1. :D

Blast, I was hoping someone had done some maths to prove it :). Hmm, maybe I need to do this sum...*scratches head thinking* not IGOUGO, orders, blast markers, supporting fire, fliers, war engines.... at a quick guess-timate I'd say Epic was 6 times more tactical than 40k. Any other factors I've forgotten that could raise this number?:D

Chaos and Evil
20-01-2008, 15:39
You forgot:

- Cover saves that actually affect your chance to hit as well as providing a saving throw.
- Armies start the game half a scale mile from each other, instead of 30 metres apart from each other (15 metres in Apocalypse).
- The standard meeting engagement scenario (Known as the 'tournament' scenario) places 80% of its emphasis on controling ground or denying it to the enemy, and only 20% of its emphasis on killing the enemy.

There you go, three more factors that bring us up to 9 ways in which Epic is cool. :p

tabletopnews
20-01-2008, 16:12
Well I'm probably not going to add a lot of novel points here

1) Game size: I like the huge size of the battles
2) Lack of heroes: As noted, this game is about grunts and vehicles
3) Tactics: You really need to think in Epic:A games. Especially in the last couple of turns
4) Scale: I like 6mm and I like the 40K background so this is a no-brainer for me
5) Alternating activations
6) Playing with scads of Leman Russ tanks

Hena
20-01-2008, 16:47
Lets add my main reasons as well (not in any particular order)

1. Blast Markers. Simply very elegant way of handling the morale.
2. Weapon divisions. AT/AP/MW/AA cause a lot of thinking to get best units to hit right targets. And force opponent to spend them the other way around :).
3. Movement. Formations can move quite fast from one end to another. This allows much more effective strategies and tactics to be employed. As well as making the game more fast paced.
4. Scale. These are real sized armies battling and not some skirmish level smash. One tank attacking some side ... not nearly as fun as rolling a company around a city block and opening fire!
5. Alternating activations. This causes all kinds tactics to be employed including surprise attacks and possibility for opponent to disrupt them.
6. Free rules. Rules are available on download to all and there is no need to buy them until you have played a game or two and want them in nice printed format to carry around.

CyberShadow
20-01-2008, 17:20
I have to agree with all of my esteemed collegues. However, for me, I think that the main reason is the grand and majestic sweep of the game. The system is very dynamic, with the initiative of the battle switching not only over turns but also across flanks. The system forces you to actually think as a commander, rather than a dice roller. The individual role of the unit and its ability is less important than your application of that unit and where it fits into your battle plan.

Then there are the 'standard reasons'...
- it is actually very tactical
- blast markers work very well and add to the game
- it focusses on objectives and why the battle is fought
- you can actually do stuff mentioned in the background, all this talk of a million soldiers on a million worlds!

Give it a try. Most people who actually play the game find that there are some very good points and aspects to it.

Dooppie
20-01-2008, 17:30
Thanks for the replies!
This game seems fun for a try and offcourse painting them is fun too.
I think I order some epic Tau from Forge world :D

CyberShadow
21-01-2008, 06:26
You select the Tau in Epic and have recently signed up at EpiComms. Clearly you are a player of the highest caliber! :D

tabletopnews
21-01-2008, 15:23
You select the Tau in Epic and have recently signed up at EpiComms. Clearly you are a player of the highest caliber! :D

Ah spit. Tau are for scardy little girls that don't want to get their hands messy in real combat.

Chaos. Thats an army for real men.

;):D

Patriarch
21-01-2008, 16:37
Chaos. Thats an army for real men.
;):D

And one-breasted hermaphrodites. ;)

tabletopnews
21-01-2008, 19:01
And one-breasted hermaphrodites. ;)

And gribbly tentacled beasts with no minds.

Its a "big tent" kind of army :-)

Jambo
22-01-2008, 17:57
I think I order some epic Tau from Forge world :D

A slight warning that cool though the FW Tau stuff looks, and it does look beautiful, the Tau way of fighting is quite different to the other armies in Epic. In particular the Tau dislike for close combat mean that one of the most important parts of the Epic rules are side stepped. The assault order.

In Epic assaults take in all the stuff that happens in a game of 40k and are decisive, the loser always breaks and usually suffers significant loses. Assaults are the main way to take ground (objectives) in Epic and though they are hard to get used to setting up initially, choosing to avoid using them makes the game quite a bit harder.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't use Tau, but be aware that they are a specialised force and using them will skew your opinion of the game. This is the main reason that most people recommend that new players use Orks or Imperial Guard, as both have the number to be forgiving and are capable of doing damage at range as well as winning assaults.

malika
22-01-2008, 18:56
What about using Kroot of Human Auxiliaries for that?

CyberShadow
22-01-2008, 20:22
The auxiliaries do fulfil the requirement for cloase assault in the list, but they are often in short supply, and in my force are usually at the other of the table from where they are needed! :rolleyes:

Generally, the Tau force does play differently from other forces in the game. However, it is not (in my opinion) one of the most difficult to get a handle on. In fact, I would say that the Tau are more forgiving than Marines. The biggest issue with this aversion to assaults is getting hold of and keeping hold of objectives.

One thing to be aware of is that some of the Epic Tau models can be fragile, and FW stuff needs a wash before you paint it.

However, the comment about learning the game with IG or Orks is good advice.

Patriarch
23-01-2008, 10:59
In particular the Tau dislike for close combat mean that one of the most important parts of the Epic rules are side stepped. The assault order.

Mustn't...get...on...high...horse...! :mad:

Where's Hena when you need him!!

CyberShadow
23-01-2008, 11:45
Mustn't...get...on...high...horse...! :mad:

Where's Hena when you need him!!

*Puts on flak jacket in preparation* :D

(For those new to the area, the issue of the Tau and Firefight/Close Combat is a regular 'discussion point'. ;) )

marv335
23-01-2008, 11:47
I love epic.
sadly I don't get to play it very often.
one of the great things for me is that I can carry a massive army (for epic) in a case the size of an a4 binder.
no more carting around massive crates of stuff.

tabletopnews
23-01-2008, 12:06
In fact, I would say that the Tau are more forgiving than Marines. The biggest issue with this aversion to assaults is getting hold of and keeping hold of objectives.

Anything is more forgiving than Marines :-) Saying that Tau are more forgiving puts it in a set that contains all other Epic armies other than Marines :-)

marv335
23-01-2008, 12:43
Anything is more forgiving than Marines :-) Saying that Tau are more forgiving puts it in a set that contains all other Epic armies other than Marines :-)

It's one of the things that makes me laugh about epic.
You get new players (I've seen this a few times) with the "Teh mareenz r teh roxxors11!!!1" attitude gained from playing 40k
Then they play my IG
BOOM, BOOM, BOOM!
say hello to mister earthshaker :D
closely followed by lots of Leman Russ.

The only army I've ever had significant trouble against is a massed ork horde.
there's just so many of them.

Chaos and Evil
23-01-2008, 12:52
Aye, that's something that is definitely cool about Epic!

Marines in Epic are a finesse force, and unless the Marine player uses his Marines with the kind of tactical acumen that Marines themselves would posess, he loses!

Hena
23-01-2008, 16:17
Mustn't...get...on...high...horse...! :mad:

Where's Hena when you need him!!
I don't think that I will fill this thread with the discussion of Tau :). This is supposed to be about good things in Epic and rules "argumentation" is rarely that :D (even though I think that it's exactly as it's supposed to be, while others have different opinions :angel:).

Hena
23-01-2008, 16:19
It's one of the things that makes me laugh about epic.
You get new players (I've seen this a few times) with the "Teh mareenz r teh roxxors11!!!1" attitude gained from playing 40k
Then they play my IG
BOOM, BOOM, BOOM!
say hello to mister earthshaker :D
closely followed by lots of Leman Russ.
Ah, but then Marine players learn and go
"Say hello to my little friend, the Thunderhawk filled with Terminators!" :D

Dwarf Supreme
23-01-2008, 16:51
The most appealing thing about Epic for me has always been, and probably will always be, TITANS!

marv335
23-01-2008, 16:59
Ah, but then Marine players learn and go
"Say hello to my little friend, the Thunderhawk filled with Terminators!" :D

Hydras.
I never leave home without anti-aircraft.
Thunderbolts too.

Jambo
23-01-2008, 17:56
Mustn't...get...on...high...horse...! :mad:

Where's Hena when you need him!!
Sorry guys I'm not having a go at the Tau Army Champion for their list, I'm just suggesting that for a beginner they don't offer the most complete view of the game. Its quite sensible for Tau players to avoid combat and engage in a long range fire fight, where as I think that one of the most important things that a new comer to the game learn about is assaults. How to set them up in your favour and how to use them to take ground, the assault system is one of Epic's best qualities.

Also I learned the game using marines, I got punded for close to a year straight. But eventually I learned the kind of tactics needed to win with marines and they centre around assaults.

tabletopnews
23-01-2008, 18:44
Ah, but then Marine players learn and go
"Say hello to my little friend, the Thunderhawk filled with Terminators!" :D

Sadly not as tough in Epic as they are in 40K though. I think teleporting with Termies is a better idea in any case. if I had a THawk I'd be keeping it for the Assault/Dev assault combo.

Hena
23-01-2008, 19:08
I dunno about 40k. I play Marines in there, but figs are mainly from RT era so no fliers or anything.

But in 40k, that's about the most optimum from cost effectiveness ratio. Air assault with Termies is better than 2 * Devs (or Dev + Assault) as the Terminators will get into CC so there is going to be 4 MW and 4 normal hits with 3+ vs 8* normal with 3+. Also the short range on assault cannons is not an issue if you land to fire as again the plane will get them where needed. Add the fact that Termies cost less than others. Sure there is bad sides (such as 1 less activation and less effective use after landing possibly, but still).

CyberShadow
24-01-2008, 08:49
Sorry guys I'm not having a go at the Tau Army Champion for their list, I'm just suggesting that for a beginner they don't offer the most complete view of the game...

No problem at all. I understood your point and agree with it.