PDA

View Full Version : Epic chaos: What to get and how to play?



zekrish
21-02-2008, 19:10
Hellu all!

As i already play all of the other games in the 41st millenium and my friends started playing Epic i thought: ''what the hell! Lets realese chaos upon them!''

But now the question is: How do i make a working Epic list? what should i have and how should i use it? I have a rather good grip of the rules but i still have littel idea what is good and cheesy gamewise.

So what should i have in a chaos army?(about 2000 pts)

/Zekrish

Chaos and Evil
21-02-2008, 19:17
Most Epic armies simply do not have a 'cheesy' list type available, because Epic is so well designed.

Regrettably, the Black Legion army list does have a known cheesy form: And it starts with taking a maximum of War Machines (Decimator tanks) and Feral Titans.

So, avoid taking too many of those, make what looks to be a 'fluffy' army list, and you'll be fine...

Patriarch
22-02-2008, 09:51
If you don't already have chaos minis from older versions of the game, you're going to be a bit restricted in what you can take unless you are happy to use proxy imperial models (which is how Epic started off in the first place). Only Chaos plastics (infantry) are availble from GW direct, if you want actual Chaos models you need eBay or similar.

One of the underlying parts of Epic is that it tends to be better to have lots of smaller formations than a few very powerful ones. Outmanouvring the enemy (and capturing objectives) is at least as important as flattening him in a straight fight. So as C&E says, the game is balanced against super-powerful units unless they have plenty of little guys as back-up.

I'm doing a Chaos army later this year, it will be based mainly on regular CSM and Titans, but mainly because I like the models...

Chaos and Evil
22-02-2008, 10:24
Personally I'm going to be doing a traitor guard-themed L&TD army soonish. :p

Irisado
22-02-2008, 22:05
I'm hoping to dust off all my old Chaos stuff from Space Marine and form some kind of army with it soon. I just need more hours in the day.

Steve54
27-02-2008, 07:35
Most Epic armies simply do not have a 'cheesy' list type available, because Epic is so well designed.

Regrettably, the Black Legion army list does have a known cheesy form: And it starts with taking a maximum of War Machines (Decimator tanks) and Feral Titans.

So, avoid taking too many of those, make what looks to be a 'fluffy' army list, and you'll be fine...

Thats just your personal opinion backed by very few people and no evidence

Chaos and Evil
27-02-2008, 08:31
Thats just your personal opinion backed by very few people and no evidence

*Argument mode ENGAGED!* :p

Our Chaos player, as a noob, was able to walk over anyone else in our gaming circle (Including reasonably skilled players like myself), simply because he maxed out on War Engines.

A noob Epic player should not win his first game 4-0. ;)



On a more objective level, we have the Warhound Titan:

2x MW2+ shots (With SLOW FIRING)
4x AP3+ / AT5+

250pts (And most players will agree that it should be 275pts)


Then we have the Feral Titan:

4x AP4+ / AT4+ (Decent AT is generally worth more than better AP, because cover effectively applies an almost-permenant -1 to-hit for AP weapons, and decent AP weapons are plentiful whilst decent AT weapons are more limited in availability)

3BP, Ignores Cover, Macro-Weapon (NOT a slow firing weapon, which should attack circa-5 enemy units per turn, as opposed to the 4 shots per game that a Blastgun can manage).

+2 Firefight attacks in the front arc.



The Feral is significantly better under almost all circumstances except a Firefight situation where a counter-charge is unavailable (So it can't bring its extra FF attacks to bear; It receives lots of extra abilities over the Warhound for only 50pts (Or 25pts, if we recognize that the Warhound should be 275pts when bought singly).


You can make the same comparison with other Imperial equivilents (Baneblades to Decimators... Warhound titans (again) to Death Wheels, etc.) and draw the same conclusion each time... that the Chaos War Engines are universally slightly overpowered / underpriced. and with the incoming change to MW Barrage weapons, they go from above average to downright broken.



So, there's some anecdotal evidence, plus a little statistical analysis.




As to 'very few people', I'd say that the majority of Epic players online are with me in thinking that the Black Legion list has some (Quite minor in comparison to a game like 40k) balance issues.



So, since the OP asked how to avoid taking a cheesy army list, I advised him not to max out on War Engines.

Steve54
27-02-2008, 10:42
Warhound vs. Feral

Fair enough the Feral is marginally better AT but marginally worse AP - edge as you say to the feral here.

However in regards to comparing the MWs I think that in game results don't tally with mathhammer,
Warhound 1st turn - doubloe forward killing infantry on 4s(assuming cover) vehicles on 3s - probably 2-3 kills
feral 1st turn - lacks range to hit with barrage until later activations of turn (90 cm max range for barrage with double move) whereas you cannot really hide from the Warhound. So IF a target presents then you are killing on 5s AP and 7s AT. Added to that is the fact that to use its barrage the feral must get into range to be FF assaulted in return.

So each can only effectively fire twice in a 3 turn game - 300 points seems fair for the feral as it is marginally better

The Decimator I have yet to see be effective against anybody who knows what they are doing. They are too expensive for the BL to field in units of more than one and then they are so easily eradicated.Baneblades are hardly a comparison as they are severely undergunned.
If they are so good why does nobody ever field them - in tournaments out of 10+ BL lists I have seen 1

As to packing the list with WEs I've yet to see this done effectively- we have tried it and BL cannot field enough activations to win with more than 3-4 WEs.If you max out on WEs you are effectively limiting yourself to 7ish activations and little flak. Do you ever see an effective army for any other race without 3-4 war engines?

I don't think the army has significant balance problems - initially it did appear overpowered - much like the eldar list, but as people have learned how to play it, again like the eldar, it is only marginally so. All the Chaos players at FSA have finished in similar, or higher, positions with other armies. At present all the main list are balanced enough that it is the player who is the most important factor.

Fair enough you think that BL are overpowered which I disagree with but to can you seriously say they are cheesy by 40k standards - which is effectively what you are saying when you tell, presumably, a 40k player coming across that BL with maxed out WEs is cheesy.

BTW was my or Nathans army at FSA cheesy?

Chaos and Evil
27-02-2008, 11:35
feral 1st turn - lacks range to hit with barrage until later activations of turn (90 cm max range for barrage with double move) whereas you cannot really hide from the Warhound.

Anyone who doesn't wait for the enemy to advance to hit them with the Feral is trying to prove a theory wrong. :p

The Feral will always get a shot on turn one, unless it's playing against a Siegemasters army who refuse to advance.


So each can only effectively fire twice in a 3 turn game

Three turns in a three turn game, or four times in a four turn game, each time attacking around 5 enemy units.

15 attacks, assuming 4's to-hit (Maybe it doubles once, and sustains once) equals 7.5 Macro-Weapon hits.

That's as opposed to the Warhound's average of around 3 Macro-Weapon hits.

Additionally, these are Macro-Weapon hits against infantry, which is more useful than Macro-Weapon hits against vehicles, as many vehicles have reinforced armour, whilst only one or two infantry types in the whole game have reinforced armour.

Feral Titans are simply 50pts too cheap, or alternatively, simpy overpowered.

Now 50pts is only an imbalance of around 1.6% of a 3000pt army list, so it doesn't have enourmous ramifications, but it does mean that the Feral Titan is undoubtedly punching above its weight.


If they are so good why does nobody ever field them - in tournaments out of 10+ BL lists I have seen 1

You know the tournament scene a lot better than I do so you know what goes on there better than I do... I just play 1/2 games a week, and watch a comparable number, almost every week of the year... :)



Fair enough you think that BL are overpowered which I disagree with but to can you seriously say they are cheesy by 40K standards - which is effectively what you are saying when you tell, presumably, a 40K player coming across that BL with maxed out WEs is cheesy.

No, as I said a few posts above this one I don't believe Epic has anything like the balance problems that 40k or WFB has.... it has a probably 2%*** of the problems those game systems have.

However, when most of Epic is incredibly well balanced, minor problems tend to stick out glaringly.


BTW was my or Nathans army at FSA cheesy?

Nathan's wasn't particularly cheesy (It's Epic after all!), and I didn't see your army list (Was yours the army with three Feral Titans? I can't remember if that army had any other War Engines).

However, as far as I'm concerned, the BL list has some minor balance problems... when you add those problems to the ERC's/Jervis' proposed change to MW hit allocation for barages, that effectively and cleanly changes the list from being 'noticably stronger than average' (Even you admit that) to 'cheesy'.

It even changes Decimators from being 'better than Baneblades' to being 'better than Shadowswords', in my very humble opinion...



*** Made up number, which is probably reasonably accurate. :)

Hena
27-02-2008, 15:55
One thing to note is the proposed rules changes. The chaos gets a huge boost when playing with the modified 3BP and MW barrage rules. I would say that without those, Feral and Decimator wouldn't be that nasty. But with them, they are.

tabletopnews
28-02-2008, 01:02
Regrettably, the Black Legion army list does have a known cheesy form: And it starts with taking a maximum of War Machines (Decimator tanks) and Feral Titans.

Regrettably C&E is prone to call the Chaos list cheesy with little provocation. I'd take his comments about it with a grain of salt.

Despite what C&E says I think that there are some armies that are prone to abuse. Any army list that take a lot of War Engines can do well against an opponent if they aren't prepared for it.

And taking "fluffy" armies isn't the answer either since things like an all vehicle Guard force fits into the fluff really well and is still tough as nails.

If you know people who like to power game then they will find Epic:A lists that are unbalanced. People like that do.

All in all the game is more balanced simply because the army lists got tested by a lot of people and got power gamed to death by some very good army list builders.

I've played WE heavy Chaos lists and had good and bad luck. The Decimators are good but slow and the Ferals aren't really any nastier than Warhounds. Big vehicles can be nasty in the game.

I'd suggest downloading the Black Legion army list and the Lost and the Damned army list from the SG website and reading through them. The LatD list has some fun things in it if you can find the minis and has an option for a Traitor Guard force as well that is quite fun.

Chaos and Evil
28-02-2008, 06:50
Yeah, ignore me and annoy your friends. :p

tabletopnews
28-02-2008, 20:54
Yeah, ignore me and annoy your friends. :p

Because of course there is no other alternative. C&E has to be right and no-one else could possibly be right. Nothing else makes any sense. :wtf:

If C&E would bother reading he would see that I actually agreed with him in a sense but I think the issue is larger than the specific point he raises.

Most armies can build WE/Titan heavy armies and these can be difficult to deal with if you don't have a lot of TK or MW weapons in your list or have a lot of squishy infantry. Its an issue with the game and not any specific army list despite what C&E would have you believe.


However, as far as I'm concerned, the BL list has some minor balance problems... when you add those problems to the ERC's/Jervis' proposed change to MW hit allocation for barages, that effectively and cleanly changes the list from being 'noticably stronger than average' (Even you admit that) to 'cheesy'.

So its not the list then its the list plus the proposed changes? So not the rules as they exist now but the rules as they exist if you use some proposed changes to the barrage and MW allocation rules but which haven't been approved yet?

Once again I have to say :wtf:

In any case, if the changes do get approved, and I hope those specific ones do not, then the status of a lot of MW equipped WEs and Titans will need to be looked at.

So again, not a BL specific list problem but please don't let that stop you.

Tymell
02-03-2008, 17:00
Because of course there is no other alternative. C&E has to be right and no-one else could possibly be right. Nothing else makes any sense. :wtf:

Here I am just idly browsing the Epic forums, and I see this. Can I just step in and point out how much I hate seeing this point, and it comes up way too often.

C&E isn't saying "Everyone else is wrong about everything here and I'm always right". He's just sticking to his point.

This argument is so over-used and is a complete over-reaction. Obviously if person A thinks one thing and person B thinks something different, person A is going to believe person B is wrong, and vice versa. This doesn't mean person A is saying B can't have his own opinion, but naturally he's going to believe that his one is the correct/true one, otherwise he wouldn't believe it!

Pretending to accept everyone else's view on something is just mindless political correctness. Now, that doesn't mean if I think/believe something then everyone else is completely wrong, nor that I am completely unmovable on the issue. But of course C&E will stick to the point he made, and thus believe you to be wrong when you state something opposed to it, otherwise he wouldn't hold that initial view in the first place.

If you have an opposing point to make, fine, make it. I haven't encoutered this actual list before, so I'm not taking any side in the debate itself. But please, don't use that old "Stop trying to tell me I can't have a different opinion!" because that's putting words in the other persons mouth.

[/rant]

torgoch
02-03-2008, 19:06
I tend to be with C&E on this. Both the Feral and Decimator look rather good for the points to me, even with the short range of the feral weapon taken into account. MW BP weapons should be an absolute exception to a list - certainly not available on three units!

Chaos and Evil
02-03-2008, 22:03
Because of course there is no other alternative. C&E has to be right and no-one else could possibly be right. Nothing else makes any sense.

Yeah and there's no possibility that I could be right and that the BL list is simply a little bit overpowered is there?

I'm not alone in believing the BL list to be overpowered you know... I'm actually in the majority on this, 'Tabletopnews... go ask 'Are Feral Titans overpowered or underpriced?' on Tactical Command or the SG forum, and listen to their replies...



So its not the list then its the list plus the proposed changes? So not the rules as they exist now but the rules as they exist if you use some proposed changes to the barrage and MW allocation rules but which haven't been approved yet?

Once again I have to say WTF

Is saying 'What the ****' really nessesary?

It's hard to debate sensibly when you keep getting antsy.


In any case, if the changes do get approved, and I hope those specific ones do not, then the status of a lot of MW equipped WEs and Titans will need to be looked at.

As I said, they're already over-strong (Especially that daft Feral Titan), if they're not downgraded even on the current core rules then they'll remain over-strong... and apparently you'll continue to refuse to admit even the possibility that they're simply too good for 300pts.

tabletopnews
03-03-2008, 02:02
Both the Feral and Decimator look rather good for the points to me, even with the short range of the feral weapon taken into account.

Have you played a game with them? Stats can often seem a little deceiving until you're using them.

Oddly enough I always thought that the Death Wheel was the problematic item in the list and I almost never see anyone complain about it.


Yeah and there's no possibility that I could be right and that the BL list is simply a little bit overpowered is there?

You? Possibly? But I can't ever recall any discussion on your part about this issue that wasn't simply based on your opinion without any reference to facts.


It's hard to debate sensibly when you keep getting antsy.

We aren't debating.


and apparently you'll continue to refuse to admit even the possibility that they're simply too good for 300pts.

Not agreeing with you is not the same as making a diametrically opposed statement.

I don't think you have a valid point and you aren't presenting any facts to illustrate your point and that is not the same as me saying that I "refuse to admit even the possibility that they're simply too good for 300pts".

Chaos and Evil
03-03-2008, 09:27
Not agreeing with you is not the same as making a diametrically opposed statement.

You say that, and then you say this:


I don't think you have a valid point and you aren't presenting any facts to illustrate your point and that is not the same as me saying that I "refuse to admit even the possibility that they're simply too good for 300pts".

Please re-read what you just typed there, then go re-read post #7 of this very thread.

Steve54
03-03-2008, 09:46
I don't see what facts you put forward on post #7 - you reel off some faux-statistics and then draw your own conclusions from them.

None of the experienced players - that is experienced with/vs.BL I have spoken to recently think the list has problems to the extent you think. You yourself at FSA said you had very little experience vs. WE heavy BL lists like Nathans (which has 2 ferals+2 death wheels)

Chaos and Evil
03-03-2008, 10:37
faux-statistics

Quantify that please; I typed some serious examinations into the stats of the Feral Titan and you dismiss a page's worth of text with two (rather derogratory) words.


You yourself at FSA said you had very little experience vs. WE heavy lists

I admit I've only played ~5 games against WE-heavy BL... that's because our main Chaos player stopped going WE-heavy as he was 'disappointed at winning every game of Epic too easily', with a lot of peer pressure for him to stop abusing the list, he relented and now plays infantry/daemon-focused lists.



problems to the extent you think.

If the power of Epic armies are an arbitrary percentage, here's some power ratings:


95% Ground-Pounder Marines
100% Airborne Marines
100% Most IG lists
105% War Engine-heavy Black Legion

That's pretty much my feelings on the relative levels of balance... minor in the grand scheme of things, but enough to give an edge to the BL player.

torgoch
03-03-2008, 11:22
Have you played a game with them? Stats can often seem a little deceiving until you're using them.

Oddly enough I always thought that the Death Wheel was the problematic item in the list and I almost never see anyone complain about it.

Feral yes, Decimator no.

Why do you think the Doom Wheel unbalanced? I thought they were slightly overcosted at 275 (although 30cm move is nice..). I'd prefer to see something more destructive than resilient (which is what the doomwheel is), but i think the costing is okay for what you get.

t-tauri
03-03-2008, 15:46
Let's keep it civil and restrict the argument to little pieces of lead and plastic and their rules please.

tabletopnews
03-03-2008, 21:07
Why do you think the Doom Wheel unbalanced?

I don't think that it is, its just very good in assaults and I am always surprised to not see people mention it in their comments about the game. I think that its inability to hit anything at range saves it in terms of balance. :-)