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Rommel
29-02-2008, 21:59
Hey guys,
I am trying to assemble an all around army list with my new VC. I play a heavy magic army atm with a wight lord BSB. I didnt face a big problem with most of the armies without a dragon(worst result was a draw).
But when i faced a dragon army i couldnt do anything to avoid a front charge in my GG unit with the lord in it and lost him after i lost my champion twice(once raised). The problem was even bigger when i faced Karl on a Dragon.
Any ideas on how to deal with dragons? I dont think a fighting vampire can stand against those enemies. Keep in mind we are talking about an overall 2k army.

Lord Inquisitor
29-02-2008, 22:21
Typically, you would feed the dragon zombies until you can swarm it. As with most big monsters, even if you can't cause a single wound, if you can get enough combat resolution, you win.

For example, take a big unit of skeletons, Banner of the Endless Nightmare (can count up to +4 for ranks) , add in a BSB with the War Banner and Walking Death and that's a unit with a combat resolution bonus of 4 for ranks, 1 for outnumbering, 2+1 for banners and 1 for the vamp. That's a combat res of 9 before casualties!

Other solutions - Knights of the Blood Keep - assuming you can keep them alive and charge them into the dragon, no easy prospect - could seriously, seriously hurt a dragon. Wraiths and Banshee could also be a possibility, although the magic-weapon-toting hero on top might make that dicey.

Basically, don't necessarily try to kill it, but if it does attack your lines, you should try to be in a position to swarm it. Undead are very good at this with Raise Dead and Danse Macabre. For example, if you could get the unit (above) in combat along with 2 other units, challenge with a crappy champion to stop him slaughtering your troops - you'd have a 12 combat resolution. And all he can get is 1+5 for overkill.

Of course, the sheer mobility of the Dragon means that he's going to try and make sure the dragon chooses his charges and doesn't go in unsupported. Actually pulling off the above tactic wouldn't be easy! But that's how it should be done, and fast units like dire wolves are great for making sure a dragon doesn't have anywhere he dares charge.

You're not thinking evil undead yet. Don't stand up to it in honest combat. Pull it down under weight of grasping zombies...

winkypinky
29-02-2008, 22:22
wraiths?

5 of them = draws.

and it is very often you will find that the rider only has a mundane weapon.

If play magic heavy you should be able to do 1 of 3 things

- raise +charge (of course in an angle leading away from your army)
- screen
- Kill it?

Chaos Undecided
29-02-2008, 22:30
Havent really read the new book yet but if the Banshee scream still lets you target a unit that in close combat without the banshee also being in said combat she can safely scream the thing to death whilst its stuck knee deep in zombies without getting anywhere near that magic weapon.

Lord Inquisitor
29-02-2008, 22:44
Hmmm... the rules aren't terribly clear on this...

"A Banshee can use her Ghostly Howl against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if she has marched or charged, or is engaged in combat... A Banshee does not need a line of sight to her target. If engaged in combat, a Tomb Banshee may only target a unit she is in contact with."

I'd say that DOES mean you can target units that are in combat while the Banshee is out of the combat. But it doesn't actually explicitly say you can pick out units in combat if the Banshee isn't in combat...

Chaos Undecided
29-02-2008, 22:52
hmm the old army book made it quite clear imo by saying she could target ANY enemy unit in range (with any in bold) even without line of sight. Looking forward to finally getting my copy of the new book so I can read things like this through properly for myself.

Da Black Gobbo
29-02-2008, 23:20
Hmm try the Red fury+Autohit calvary lance+ anti AAF armour on a Vamp lord. 4 Auto Str 7 attacks + more attacks if you wound that also autohit. 6 wounds on a single round?? yes of course.

Rommel
29-02-2008, 23:22
Typically, you would feed the dragon zombies until you can swarm it. As with most big monsters, even if you can't cause a single wound, if you can get enough combat resolution, you win.

For example, take a big unit of skeletons, Banner of the Endless Nightmare (can count up to +4 for ranks) , add in a BSB with the War Banner and Walking Death and that's a unit with a combat resolution bonus of 4 for ranks, 1 for outnumbering, 2+1 for banners and 1 for the vamp. That's a combat res of 9 before casualties!

He is the one who chooses what he will charge at first place. If he charges a unit of zombies or a unit without a character i ll thank him for that but none of my opponents did that. They charged the unit my general is in there.

The only way to bring a unit on him is by summoning zombies and dance them to charge him, but obviously he has DD and scrolls for that.

And how wolves can stop a dragon charging a unit he chooses?

Rommel
29-02-2008, 23:38
wraiths?

5 of them = draws.

and it is very often you will find that the rider only has a mundane weapon.

If play magic heavy you should be able to do 1 of 3 things

- raise +charge (of course in an angle leading away from your army)
- screen
- Kill it?

raise and charge is not that easy, because it means you have to summon more than 15 zombies (to be sure they will not die the turn they ll charge) and dance them to dragon which is not that easy because you opponent will have at least two scrolls and 3 DD so he will cut all your dances. And also it means you must be closer than 20" to do that (12 raise dead and 8 the dance) which means a failure on that process is a charge in next turn.

screen, the one i tried.I summoned a unit of zombies to my front waisting more than half my PD on that. He moved to my back and I summoned a unit to my rear. But i had to always have a unit to my right, to my left, in front of me and to my back. I was really hard while i had to manage with 2 steam tanks and 2 knight units.

Kill it? how?:P

Rommel
29-02-2008, 23:43
And about wraiths Karl has a magic wep, so does the most of the chars on dragons, so ...

Rommel
29-02-2008, 23:52
Hmm try the Red fury+Autohit calvary lance+ anti AAF armour on a Vamp lord. 4 Auto Str 7 attacks + more attacks if you wound that also autohit. 6 wounds on a single round?? yes of course.

1. You have to have a Lord on a dragon to do that which i dont use because i find it very vulnerable against cannons.

2. Even if i had a dragon i have to survive the first round of shooting and he must do the mistake to put his dragon in charge range in order to charge him (i dont think you are believing that a serious player will let you dance your dragon)
and he is not the one that he is in a hurry because of his cannons. You have to charge in order to use your lance, if you are charged, even if you hit first you cant do anything to a dragon or Karl if you cant use your autohit lance.

scarvet
01-03-2008, 00:32
You know, you can't really screen you units since dragon is a large taget and it can do fly over charge....

I will say either magic it to death, sream with your banshee than charge the dam thing with your black knight....

Rommel
01-03-2008, 00:48
By screening i mean put(summon) a group just in front, rear, sides of yours leaving no space for dragon to land, so he cant do a legal charge to that unit.

Scarvet the problem is when it charges a group with your char inside(you cant screen it the whole fight). You will challenge with your champion. He will kill him and either he will win the CR and so i lose some more models(which i dont care) or i will win due to static CR for 1-2(depends on BL BSB), but he has Ld10 and i cant count on losing his break test. Next Turn i ll res my champion and in the best situation i ll bring a flank charge. I will challenge again and my champion dies. At his turn i dont have a champion alive so he can choose to hit my general (which is going to kill for sure) or my BSB or both.
And this is just Karl, ignoring the rest of his army(steam tanks and knights) which are as painful as him.
And seriously i cant count on banshees to kill a LD 10 character with 3 wounds 4+ save and a 6 wounds dragon.

Spirit
01-03-2008, 02:29
I would go with the vampire lord, and he doesn't need to be on a dragon, a horse will do, and if you cant get that lord, with 16 or 18 inch movement, plus magic, into the dragon (even AFTER it reaches combat) there is something far wrong. He will slaughter a dragon, and his rider. 6 hits, S7, so say 4 wounds, 4 more hits, 2 more wounds, dead dragon, and thats just average. edit: AND (lol) give him the ability of take a test at -3 or the vamp re rolls wounds, giving you another 3 wounds easy.

You'l be able to tell what he wants to flank one turn before he charges, so turn to face or get the vamp in for a counter charge, if he can kill a whole unit of skellies or GG in 1 turn, your doing something wrong.

To spice it up a bit more, if he goes for your GG, have a corpse cart near (Or IN the GG, if you have a necro on it) the unit, so you get 4 or 5 killing blow attacks, (allocating on the hero) striking first (AND at ws 6 or 7 if you give the vamp the uber helm.

ORRRRR. You could put a wight in the unit, with sword of kings for 5+ killing blow with a cart near, and the ws 7 trick, there are plenty of options, and if you go magic heavy, you should easily be able to pull off a zombie charge, need 11 models? take the vamp ability that lets you raise d3+9. if you can maneuver a corpse cart near, then every IoN gives you d6+2.

Stop him going for your main army, take 2 units of gouls, put vamps in them, give them a free march and have 2 units 8" away from him turn 2. Then the dragon has to re direct.

If you think you cant get enough spells off, take the +1 to cast/dispell staff and the +1 to dispell staff, all the magic youl ever need.

So many options, you cannot say they will ALL fail, sure some of them depend on him charging the GG, but if he doesn't, they should be B-lining STRAIGHT at him as fast as they can. And i know you cant do them ALL in 2k, but you can do any seperate one in 2k, easy.

Edit: Sorry to actually answer your first question properly, corpse carts are your friend, first strike on your killing blow grave guard might save your ass, give them great weapons and they will wound the dragon, giving you the combat res to draw or win. Have a BsB in the unit to minimise damage from losing.

Latro
01-03-2008, 08:25
Move your Vampire Lord from the Grave Guard unit to a Skeleton unit close behind them. This leaves your expensive and effective elite unit free for combat while your General is save from a potentially deadly frontal charge by the Dragon ... and any flank/rear charges can't reach your Vampire while summoning more Skeletons takes care of crumbling casualties.


:cool:

Lord Inquisitor
01-03-2008, 15:44
Hmm try the Red fury+Autohit calvary lance+ anti AAF armour on a Vamp lord. 4 Auto Str 7 attacks + more attacks if you wound that also autohit. 6 wounds on a single round?? yes of course.
I was just looking at that. Up to 8 wounds reliably on the charge. Wow. 110 points for the combo though.


He is the one who chooses what he will charge at first place. If he charges a unit of zombies or a unit without a character i ll thank him for that but none of my opponents did that. They charged the unit my general is in there.
Ah... and he's slaughtering your general.

Even simpler than the suggestions so far. Put a skeleton or grave guard champion next to your general. Then if he charges your general, challenge with the skeleton champion. He CAN'T refuse the challenge. Make sure your unit can deal more than 6 combat resolution and he CANNOT win the combat or kill your Vampire...

Latro
01-03-2008, 18:07
Even simpler than the suggestions so far. Put a skeleton or grave guard champion next to your general. Then if he charges your general, challenge with the skeleton champion. He CAN'T refuse the challenge. Make sure your unit can deal more than 6 combat resolution and he CANNOT win the combat or kill your Vampire...

Drawbacks:

- you can't raise the champion fast enough to do this every round of combat
- you (most likely) win combat only by a small margin ... and no auto-break
- no effect if another enemy unit with static CR has joined the fight as well


:cool:

W0lf
01-03-2008, 21:07
Wight King. Sword of kings.

Job done, rider dead, next please?

superduperkoopatrooper
01-03-2008, 21:27
Wight King. Sword of kings.

Job done, rider dead, next please?

I think the guy's already tried to explain that stuff like this is hard to make work. Try builiding a wight king with this sword that can survive Ghal Maraz and a dragon. The only way I can see this working is to charge in with this wight in a subsequent round of cc and issue a challenge. Don't know the exact stats of a wight now but my guess is it'd have 3 attacks hitting on 4s, need 5s for killing blow and karl would have to fail his 4+ ward. Quick calculation I think requires 12 attacks to get this to average out to exactly one dead Karl. Whereas Karl + dragon would be doing maybe 5-10 wounds every round (maximum 17!)?

I think part of the problem is that the dragon list in question sounds similar to that GT heat winning Empire list so it's not surprising it's hard to beat.

Not being a vamp player I'm glad there's no easy solution to dragon slaying :p

Von Wibble
01-03-2008, 22:18
Karl Franz on a dragon in a 2000 pt army. Thats half his points in one model.

Which means the rest of the army will have a weakness. Either his magical defense will be poor (at best L1 with rod of power) or he has a lack of units. Most likely both.

Therefore I would go with feeding the dragon lots of zombies and using your superiority elsewhere to beat up the rest of the force.

W0lf
01-03-2008, 22:20
also VCs are probably the army that is least bothred by dragons.

He cant auto break a unit and cut them down with a flank/rear charge and you wont be losing models to terror.

PeG
02-03-2008, 21:21
Frostblade + fly + armour + ward. Stick him into a unit when dragons moves into charging range attack you can also reach him by flying out of your unit. Any wound is an autokill. Your problem will be to survive the next turn when everything shoots at your general.

Spirit
02-03-2008, 21:41
auto kill the dragon, survive against the rider for a turn, then kill him in their turn? no shooting. Or didtch the armour, take the stupidity 4+ ward and -2 to all shooting, its dark elves, so no cannons.

But i like that idea PeG

Rommel
05-03-2008, 01:02
auto kill the dragon, survive against the rider for a turn, then kill him in their turn? no shooting. Or didtch the armour, take the stupidity 4+ ward and -2 to all shooting, its dark elves, so no cannons.

But i like that idea PeG


Frostblade + fly + armour + ward. Stick him into a unit when dragons moves into charging range attack you can also reach him by flying out of your unit. Any wound is an autokill. Your problem will be to survive the next turn when everything shoots at your general.

First of all I am not going to have such a lord in my ALL AROUND 2k(or 2,250) army list for many reasons but even if a had such a char, ha cannot survive by any mean Karl's 4 attacks with auto wound, no armour saves and D3wounds.

I am not new in Warhammer, i am playing about 10 years, so does almost all of my opponents in store i play and the reasons we are playing are:
1) to have fun
2) to playtest our army lists for Tournaments
So the victory is not the goal here. When we are playing we are making comments and helping each other. The reason i posted here was that they also couldn't think how i could get rid of the dragon easily(kill or put him in a group with skellies). I am not expecting to hear a magic solution of course. I just want your thoughts and your experience and thanks for replying.


I would go with the vampire lord, and he doesn't need to be on a dragon, a horse will do, and if you cant get that lord, with 16 or 18 inch movement, plus magic, into the dragon (even AFTER it reaches combat) there is something far wrong. He will slaughter a dragon, and his rider. 6 hits, S7, so say 4 wounds, 4 more hits, 2 more wounds, dead dragon, and thats just average. edit: AND (lol) give him the ability of take a test at -3 or the vamp re rolls wounds, giving you another 3 wounds easy.


Things are not as simple as you present them. First to charge him without allowing him to charge you fist you must be 20+ yards away from him. So you have to move and then charge with dance. Some thoughts about the army and how will you dance. You will have a lvl 3 caster(your lord), that he have to take the spell by rolling it at the start of the game, and maximum 3 vampires lvl2 that they have to roll that spell and one of them has the bound spell too. Lets say that all your vampires got the spell (because they are imba lucky ;p). There are total 5 spells rolled (one with 3 dices and the rest with 2) and a bound 3 spell. Those can be dispelled by a empire player with 2 lvl1 wizards with 4 dispel scrolls. But let's say that he failed to stop you and you casted it and you have a smile in your face until you hear the word "flee" in charge reaction and have your lord alone in the middle or at best with a unit of BK. next turn he is charging you with an unbreakable T6,10 wounds steam tank which you cannot avoid because you cannot flee and it is impossible to kill it in two turns with the Vampire you showed to us. So the dragon will rally and pay you a visit next turn. So there is something wrong here.


You'l be able to tell what he wants to flank one turn before he charges, so turn to face or get the vamp in for a counter charge, if he can kill a whole unit of skellies or GG in 1 turn, your doing something wrong.

He is going to charge ONLY if he is sure if the unit he will charge will be destroyed or to kill my general. He has patience to wait until then because i can't turn my army for the whole fight the direction his dragon is when i have to face 2 steam tanks and 2 units of knights.


Stop him going for your main army, take 2 units of gouls, put vamps in them, give them a free march and have 2 units 8" away from him turn 2. Then the dragon has to re direct.

You think that he cannot easily kill 2 units of ghouls with his knights or with his steam tanks? There is no reason to put his dragon in there.

The rest of your thoughts were answered by others, but anyway thx for posting Spirit.

Spirit
05-03-2008, 01:16
Well i seems by the way you put it, the dragon is unkillable, but i fail to see why you could not get a dance off, necromancer with periapt = 2 castings of a 7+ spell on 2 dice, and a bound casting, aswell as any vamps lucky enough to get it, hell, for 35 points you can take ALL the vampire spells, if your desperate. And as for fleeing, WAIT until he charges and then move the vamp out of his unit, you lose the units movement for a turn, but you gt the vampire where he is needed, and killing the dragon will win the game. Il go back to an earlier point saying, your undead, you should be able to hold a dragon in combat with your units and IoN, if your worried about 4 scrolls, wait a turn, you engage the dragon after he uses the scrolls.

you can put a counter for ANYTHING that we say down if you like, but that vampire lord will slaughter the dragon, and it shouldnt be too hard to dance into it.

Failing all, take your own dragon, and kill things faster than he does.

As for you not wanting a cheesy vampire in an "all round" army, you wont kill the dragon without it, if he is taking a very non all round character on a dragon, it will win against an all round army, period.

I guess the easy answer is you wont kill the dragon and rider, not if you want to use a balanced army.


EDIT: Also, now i think about it, how does he afford steam tank(s), a dragon mounted cheese lord AND all the anti magic in the world? (edit2: AND KNIGHTS, missed them first reading) in the 2k army you said this was based around? I fail to see how this is passable, and if he does have this setup, there is NO WAY youl kill a dragon with the balanced, take all comers army that you want to build. It is imposible in my view. Not unless you have a cheese lord of your own. Backed up with a varghulf or 3...

Dragon Prince of Caledor
05-03-2008, 01:17
Call a challenge.. surround with zombies etc.. once off a charge you should be able to survive a lone dragon and character. Then in ur turn smash something in his flank and call a challenge... then u win with combat res and run him into the ground.. good luck:)

neXus6
05-03-2008, 13:01
1) to have fun
2) to playtest our army lists for Tournaments

That sounds like an oxymoron to me, but then I'm not a tourney player. :)

It's very noble that you want to take out this cheesed up army, I mean anyone who takes one Scroll Caddy never mind 2 is a disgrace in my books, with an all rounder army, but you can certainly wander into VCs own realm of powergaming.

I'm pretty sure the Frostblade wielding fly ******** vampire lord would be pretty good against any army, so it is kind of an all rounder.
And against 2 Scroll Caddies Vamps get so many spells they are going to be out of scrolls turn 1 if they want to stop anything, you could probably get a good 40 zombies raised turn 1 just with your 3 hero level casters, and those can be used to block any number of his powerful units.

UltimateNagash
05-03-2008, 13:21
I think the guy's already tried to explain that stuff like this is hard to make work. Try builiding a wight king with this sword that can survive Ghal Maraz and a dragon. The only way I can see this working is to charge in with this wight in a subsequent round of cc and issue a challenge. Don't know the exact stats of a wight now but my guess is it'd have 3 attacks hitting on 4s, need 5s for killing blow and karl would have to fail his 4+ ward. Quick calculation I think requires 12 attacks to get this to average out to exactly one dead Karl. Whereas Karl + dragon would be doing maybe 5-10 wounds every round (maximum 17!)?


Nightshroud means you'll strike first, Vanhels with the Crown of Commandment means you're re-rolling on WS6/7.
Job done.

Rommel
05-03-2008, 13:24
Spirit don't be offended. When i am discussing about tactics or even when i am thinking about tactics i am always saying what could go wrong and always searching for the chances of failure. That doesn't mean that that tactic is wrong. And my point is not to show that it is impossible to deal with a dragon. If i believed that i wouldnt bother to post here.

Well i seems by the way you put it, the dragon is unkillable, but i fail to see why you could not get a dance off, necromancer with periapt = 2 castings of a 7+ spell on 2 dice, and a bound casting, aswell as any vamps lucky enough to get it, hell, for 35 points you can take ALL the vampire spells, if your desperate. And as for fleeing, WAIT until he charges and then move the vamp out of his unit, you lose the units movement for a turn, but you gt the vampire where he is needed, and killing the dragon will win the game. Il go back to an earlier point saying, your undead, you should be able to hold a dragon in combat with your units and IoN, if your worried about 4 scrolls, wait a turn, you engage the dragon after he uses the scrolls.

you can put a counter for ANYTHING that we say down if you like, but that vampire lord will slaughter the dragon, and it shouldnt be too hard to dance into it.



He is not going to use his scrolls to stop IoN, but only to cut dances and the dices are not so many(2 dances with 2 dices each is an average of 1 casted and 1 failed and the bound spell is power lvl 3, plus whatever vampires get). And again i cant see how to put a dragon in CC without using dance.

And let's say you manage to charge him with your lord. You have 4 attacks wouding on 2+ and they are saved on 4+. That with Red fury is 2,3611 wounds on average, not enough to kill him. So you need above average to kill him. And if he attacks you are dead for sure.


EDIT: Also, now i think about it, how does he afford steam tank(s), a dragon mounted cheese lord AND all the anti magic in the world? (edit2: AND KNIGHTS, missed them first reading) in the 2k army you said this was based around? I fail to see how this is passable, and if he does have this setup, there is NO WAY youl kill a dragon with the balanced, take all comers army that you want to build. It is imposible in my view. Not unless you have a cheese lord of your own. Backed up with a varghulf or 3...

In his 2,250 army list(tournament version) he has Karl(700points), 2 mages with DD (230),
2 cannons(200), 2 steam tanks(600), 10 swordmen(50), 2x10 knights (460).

Spirit
05-03-2008, 13:39
Lol, well if thats the army, you wont beat it with a take all comers vampire army, you need blood knights with regeneraltion or the frostblade to even touch both steam tanks. I dont see a way to do it.

You need to out cheese a cheese army to win, pure and simple. Manfred might have a chance actually, with his 13 spells im sure you could do damage, but he cant use his nasty nasty sword against much of that army, so again id still come back to the flying lord, with a small amount of luck you can kill a steam tank a turn, which would hurt, dragon or no dragon.

And im not offended, i get bad at explaining things at half one in the morning, apologies.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
05-03-2008, 14:01
I was really hard while i had to manage with 2 steam tanks and 2 knight units.

Wow these things plus a lord on a dragon? He just sounds like a joy of an opponent to play against... :rolleyes:

I agree with Spirit. If he is bring a piece of **** army like that, then you have to either build a cheesey army yourself, or build an army specifically to beat him.

Me? I personally just wouldn't play the jackass.

Spirit
05-03-2008, 14:06
Yay, agreeness!

As for not playing, hes already said they are friends, testing armies, so he will play him, but i just cant fathom a way to beat him with a balanced army.

Preacher
05-03-2008, 14:12
I agree with Spirit. If thats the army he is playing then he is obvioulsy playing to crush every opponent he faces, which if thats the way he wants to play thats fine, you said you are play testing for tournys, everyone goes to a tourny to win. But in order to combat that you would have to do the same thing. You could take this example and put it between any two armies. If someone shows up with Thorek/anvil list or a SAD list and I show up with my "good friendly game, all corners covered list" I dont stand a chance against them I'm simply gonna get crushed, only my post would be about how to bring down Thorek instead.

So I guess if the general question is how to bring down an uber tricked out powergaming army with a friendly do it all well list(which seems to be the root of the question), then the answer is you can't. Thats why its known as a "cheesy/powergaming" list. Against any other average list its designed to roll over it.

If your playtesting tourny lists then perhaps you should try to test one that is a little more "power" oriented and see how it fares.

His list can be beat but only if you play the same game.

These are only my thoughts, I dont play VC or Empire and everytime I have played against them I have never encounterd a list that was built soley to win tournys.

forgottenlor
05-03-2008, 14:16
I might try to screen the front of the unit with a spirit host. I would bet they could hold their own for a while. If necessary they could also quickly move out of the way.

Tiamat
05-03-2008, 14:44
Tricky one.

My first though would be to ignore it, but then being a flying creature, that's a lot harder than it sounds.

Next thought would be to use your magic. Raise a unit of Zombies near the beastie, beef it's numbers a load, then van hels it into combat with the dragon. Next, keep raising more zombies to keep it pinned with these expendable corpses. Without a supporting unit it's very difficult for a monster to gain a massive combat resolution on it's own, not having either rank or banner, and bear in mind the best it can hit on is 3s, so only 2 thirds of its attacks will hit.

Hopefully, you can keep it stuck in this pointless combat while you concentrate your efforts on the rest of your opponents army, which will be all the smaller thanks to having a giant winged beastie not flapping around eating all the points.

failign that, try a Zombie Dragon and hope for the best, or combo that with a Varghulf if you are determined to kill it.

Oooh, plan. Pin it with Zombies, then charge it with those nasty Vampire Knights! Two S7 attacks on the charge each will make even a dragon think twice about sticking around!

Lord Inquisitor
05-03-2008, 14:54
Oooh, plan. Pin it with Zombies, then charge it with those nasty Vampire Knights! Two S7 attacks on the charge each will make even a dragon think twice about sticking around!
Three S7 attacks each. They have frenzy... ;)

Tiamat
05-03-2008, 15:08
Three S7 attacks each. They have frenzy... ;)

OOOOOH! Bring On The Pain!!!! Kill the dragon and rundown the rider! :evilgrin:

Spirit
05-03-2008, 22:56
OOOOOH! Bring On The Pain!!!! Kill the dragon and rundown the rider! :evilgrin:

With the banner of strigos, Hatred..

praesto
05-03-2008, 23:14
Yeah. Awesome! I wonder what happens when the star dragon manages to charge those slow knights..

Spirit
05-03-2008, 23:24
Yeah. Awesome! I wonder what happens when the star dragon manages to charge those slow knights..

Your vampire lord with 6 power dice and the pool dice and +1 to cast, casts vanhells on the knights 4 times a turn untill he cant stop it anymore and they charge the dragon when he is 15-19 inches away. Then he takes the charge or flees and doesnt charge the unit.

And you have a bound vanhells and a neromancer for a 5th and 6th casting...

praesto
05-03-2008, 23:32
Haha, fair enough. If you have that particular lord setup (which is indeed a great setup, unless if he flies out of LOS from your blood knights and goes for that caster lord) I think you might have a good shot at it =). Hell, you might even be able to cast a spell vs a dwarf army with anvil and two runesmiths.

Rommel
06-03-2008, 01:38
Nightshroud means you'll strike first, Vanhels with the Crown of Commandment means you're re-rolling on WS6/7.
Job done.

Tried it but the chance to kill him is 41,66%, way far from a sure killing. Although i have such a char in my all around army list and sure i would challenge him if he ever got in CC, but still chances are with him.


I agree with Spirit. If thats the army he is playing then he is obvioulsy playing to crush every opponent he faces, which if thats the way he wants to play thats fine, you said you are play testing for tournys, everyone goes to a tourny to win. But in order to combat that you would have to do the same thing. You could take this example and put it between any two armies. If someone shows up with Thorek/anvil list or a SAD list and I show up with my "good friendly game, all corners covered list" I dont stand a chance against them I'm simply gonna get crushed, only my post would be about how to bring down Thorek instead.

So I guess if the general question is how to bring down an uber tricked out powergaming army with a friendly do it all well list(which seems to be the root of the question), then the answer is you can't. Thats why its known as a "cheesy/powergaming" list. Against any other average list its designed to roll over it.

If your playtesting tourny lists then perhaps you should try to test one that is a little more "power" oriented and see how it fares.

His list can be beat but only if you play the same game.

These are only my thoughts, I dont play VC or Empire and everytime I have played against them I have never encounterd a list that was built soley to win tournys.

When you are travel to an other country to play in a tournament, i find it fair to make the best possible army list. I would do that too tbh with you(only for tournaments), but i am not sure that i see a broken army list in new VC. Anyway my goal is not create such a list, but to find a tactic against dragons and helping my friends too, because they are worried about VC because it is an army they haven't played against it much, because they have just released.


I might try to screen the front of the unit with a spirit host. I would bet they could hold their own for a while. If necessary they could also quickly move out of the way.

HE has magic wep which causes D3 wounds, so it is charge and then overrun to general's unit

About blood knights, he will try to be max distance from them, because he knows that a steam tank can take them easily which a charge.
I played many times with those vampires and i am not really convinced that they offer more than they cost in an all around army. I would prefer other rare choices tbh. That is a general comment:P

Although i found a sure way to deal with him. The dragon he is using and one Steam tank are mine, so i will not let him take them:P
Thx again for replying with your thoughts.

tehhelios
06-03-2008, 03:33
Chances you can charge a flyer with anything unless he has charged something first is pretty much 0 unless he really screws up, even with vanhell.

Id go for carnteins ring, put lord in skelleton regiment, die and then keep raising new guys in the unit to keep him busy.
Might be other ways but seems like taking care of the general is pretty much a must in tournaments when the whole army crumbles at his death,

eleveninches
06-03-2008, 10:49
I dont see how you can fail to beat a dragon with an undead horde. Mininum, you will have a static combat res of 5, plus any wounds that you cause. He will 10 attacks (including the riders) and probably do 7 hits and cause 6 wounds. You are unlikely to lose combat by more than one, and can keep summonning more to the unit

MildlyAbrasive
06-03-2008, 11:12
I dont see how you can fail to beat a dragon with an undead horde. Mininum, you will have a static combat res of 5, plus any wounds that you cause. He will 10 attacks (including the riders) and probably do 7 hits and cause 6 wounds. You are unlikely to lose combat by more than one, and can keep summonning more to the unit

He doesn't have to beat the unit, all he has to do is kill the lord. Game over Vampire Counts.

Spirit
06-03-2008, 12:21
Killing a vampire lord tooled up for defence is very hard.

UltimateNagash
06-03-2008, 13:25
And you trying to get to the Vampire before you're charged - I know you've got a 20" movement, but so what? That means you can't reach me first turn, and then I'll charge/Vanhels you :p