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Necrotyr18
01-03-2008, 18:03
In the new rules for Invocation of Nehek it says, "some units may be raised over their starting value."

Now what does some mean? The only reason it is confusing me is because later on in the book it has bloodline upgrade powers to be able to gain +1 to the raised vaule of skeletons, dire wolves, and one other unit(sorry forgot). Though it also says in addition to this +1 you are now able to raise these units above starting strength.

Are you able to upgrade these units beyond starting strength without this upgrade? Is it that only Zombies can be raised above starting vaule without an upgrade? The some is really throwing me off with the upgrades as well.

Thanks in advance.

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-03-2008, 18:06
Zombies are the only unit that can always be raised over starting size. You need to have the specific bloodline powers to raise Skeletons, Ghouls, Dire Wolves and Fell Bats over starting size.

T10
01-03-2008, 18:08
And those annoying Bat Swarms. At least they're not completely useless anymore.

-T10

Necrotyr18
01-03-2008, 18:13
What about Wights?

T10
01-03-2008, 18:20
By default you are limited by the starting unit size. The exceptions are granted on a case-by-case basis.

-T10

Necrotyr18
01-03-2008, 18:26
Thank you T10.

Gromdal
02-03-2008, 08:52
is it enough for one vamp to have the bloodline power for all vamps to raise skeletons above starting nrs?

or does every last vamp need it in order to do it themselves?

athamas
02-03-2008, 09:56
every vamp that wished to raise above the starting value must have the relevent power!

zak
02-03-2008, 10:26
You can only use the dice generated by the Vampire/Necromancer that has the power and those from the pool to increase the size. one way to get around it if the unit has taken damage. Use the dice from other casters to get it to starting strength and then use the other caster.

On a side note the power used on wolves, fell bats and bat swarms only ever recovers one wound. Pretty useless if you ask me.

T10
02-03-2008, 10:33
On a side note the power used on wolves, fell bats and bat swarms only ever recovers one wound. Pretty useless if you ask me.

Actually, the Infantry unit type is the one that best describes Bat Swarms and Fell Bats. Weird.

-T10

Necronoxz
02-03-2008, 13:10
If I understand it well...

all undead unit's you can raise back to there start valuta?
so for example I start with 25 grave guards 6 slain so i can raise MAX 6 grave guards back?
becouse they have the undead special rule...
and what about black knights?
can I raise them back if I start with 10 can I raise them back to 10 after I get some wounds?

niox
02-03-2008, 13:18
If I understand it well...

all undead unit's you can raise back to there start valuta?
so for example I start with 25 grave guards 6 slain so i can raise MAX 6 grave guards back?
becouse they have the undead special rule...
and what about black knights?
can I raise them back if I start with 10 can I raise them back to 10 after I get some wounds?

Yes, you can raise the black knights back to their starting number.
Gaining one model back per basic cast because they are a non-infantry unit. Two if you have a corpse cast with
a unholy lodstone within 6 of the unit.

Ganda_Ninja
05-03-2008, 01:38
Are Wight Kings on foot considered infantry? They sure aren't Vampires or Ethereal...

Nedar
05-03-2008, 01:45
Seems that Wight Kings can get d6 wounds back, per the wording of the spell.

Spirit
05-03-2008, 02:04
OOO, i like the idea of a T6 Ws1 I1 wight lord, with 3 wounds... 5+ to hit or not, there isnt alot thats gonna kill him, and you could combine him with the helm of command for some serious hurt!

UltimateNagash
05-03-2008, 13:37
Actually, the Infantry unit type is the one that best describes Bat Swarms and Fell Bats. Weird.

-T10
Bat Swarms are a swarm. Not infantry
Fell Bats are a flying unit. Not infantry
Dire Wolves are fast cavalry. Not infantry
Therefore with each casting you can only raise one :(

Wight Kings get back D6 Wounds, as do Necromancers. Everything else with multiple Wounds only gets back 1.

[/My interpretation]

Spirit
05-03-2008, 23:05
Swarm is not a unit type, infantry is, thus infantry swarms get d6, im fairly sure it works like this.

Same goes for flying units, flying is a special rule, not a unit type. (Fell bats are infantry, as per the back of the VC book, with special rules: undead, flying unit. Bat swarms are infantry, with special rules: Undead, flying unit, swarm)

Wolves you are spot on, as they are a cavalry unit type.

UltimateNagash
05-03-2008, 23:09
Well, guess what - I don't really care, cause I can't see how those two are Infantry. For one thing, they're not on foot.
Oh, but wait, yeah, page 7 proves me wrong. Fair enough - I don't mind, that's good for me :D

GodHead
05-03-2008, 23:11
Ok. That's very... dissociative personality disorder of you ;)

UltimateNagash
05-03-2008, 23:13
I was reading and typing at the same time... Timothy Zahn is a good author. WHAT?!

Spirit
05-03-2008, 23:19
eep. Sorry, didn't mean to incur your wrath! :-)

UltimateNagash
06-03-2008, 00:21
eep. Sorry, didn't mean to incur your wrath! :-)
RAWWWWWWWWWWR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:evilgrin:

Are there any other questions concerning IoN or have we finished here now?

Spirit
06-03-2008, 01:16
Does it give vampires d6 wounds? If not, it should!

/sarcasm

UltimateNagash
06-03-2008, 10:12
No, but it does heal Bats better than it heals Wolves O_o

T10
06-03-2008, 21:59
Quick, Robin! Run the .bat file!

-T10

MildlyAbrasive
07-03-2008, 08:07
Quick, Robin! Run the .bat file!

-T10

Was it ever settled whether Invocation casts into units in combat or not?

T10
07-03-2008, 09:07
Yes, GW has not included explicit permission to cast the spell on a unit in close combat. This is a fact and not open for discussion.

However, genereal consent is that this is a bleeding obvious error by ommission and I am sure most will rectify this as a house rule. I know I will.

-T10

UltimateNagash
07-03-2008, 10:42
I say it can be cast into combat. For one thing it states that the models don't get the charging bonus, and since you've already charged, you have to be able to cast it into combat to allow it... or Vanhel, but thats different.

T10
07-03-2008, 15:59
In case you missed it:


Yes, GW has not included explicit permission to cast the spell on a unit in close combat. This is a fact and not open for discussion.

However, genereal consent is that this is a bleeding obvious error by ommission and I am sure most will rectify this as a house rule. I know I will.

-T10

Ah, it appears you did.


I say it can be cast into combat. For one thing it states that the models don't get the charging bonus, and since you've already charged, you have to be able to cast it into combat to allow it... or Vanhel, but thats different.

No problem, it's a service I provide.

-T10

Dark_Mage99
07-03-2008, 16:15
Fell Bats, Bat Swarms and Spirit Hosts are all Infantry, per the Reference Page at the back of the army book; and thus can all regain D6 wounds from Invocation.

It never dawned on me that heroes could benefit from this as well... although I don't think you'd need it on the aforementioned T6 Wight King!

paulsk
07-03-2008, 18:58
Fell Bats, Bat Swarms and Spirit Hosts are all Infantry, per the Reference Page at the back of the army book; and thus can all regain D6 wounds from Invocation.

It never dawned on me that heroes could benefit from this as well... although I don't think you'd need it on the aforementioned T6 Wight King!

If we are going by page 96 then Wight Kings and Necromancers CANNOT be healed for d6 wounds because they are not Infantry. They are Characters.

paulsk
07-03-2008, 19:00
Yes, GW has not included explicit permission to cast the spell on a unit in close combat. This is a fact and not open for discussion.

However, genereal consent is that this is a bleeding obvious error by ommission and I am sure most will rectify this as a house rule. I know I will.

-T10

Do you think that Vanhels can be cast on a unit engaged in close combat? (it does not explicitly say that you can, it only implicitly says that you can - just like Invocation...)

T10
07-03-2008, 19:40
Same business, unfortunately.

I guess the main reason people get their adams in a knot over these things is because they either want to play the game right as if though the rules were both fair and precise, or they have a pathological fear that they'll some day run into some guy who'll jam the Rule-as-Written down their throat while laughing at them in an annoying high-pitched manner. Like a donkey with a balloonful of helium.

-T10

Spirit
07-03-2008, 21:36
Fell Bats, Bat Swarms and Spirit Hosts are all Infantry, per the Reference Page at the back of the army book; and thus can all regain D6 wounds from Invocation.

It never dawned on me that heroes could benefit from this as well... although I don't think you'd need it on the aforementioned T6 Wight King!

"models with the ethereal rule/vampire rule/non infantry can only ever gain 1 wound"

Just before you try to give your spirit hosts d6 wounds.

Spirit
07-03-2008, 21:38
Also, to bring up an interesting point, why say "models with the vampire rule can only ever gain 1 wound" because if characters are exempt from the rule, ALL of the vampires are either characters, monsters, cavalry or chariots.

Thus my take is that characters count as infantry, the only one that it matter for of course is the wight lord, good luck trying to put d6 wounds back on a necromancer that loses more than one wound...