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juample
02-03-2008, 23:32
Is movement of a unit calculated over the first rank?

grishnakh99
02-03-2008, 23:37
I don't understand your question... could you clarify please?

juample
03-03-2008, 00:16
When a unit moves forward the first and the rear rank move the same.

When you wheel no. You have to wheel rounding one of the front corners But...

The moved distance calculated using as reference the first rank or the or the rear rank?

theunwantedbeing
03-03-2008, 00:17
Whichever model moved the furthest.

juample
03-03-2008, 00:21
Whichever model moved the furthest.

But calculate it in the frontal side or the rear side?

theunwantedbeing
03-03-2008, 00:23
The front.

*edit*

Whichever side moved the furthest.
Like I said in the last post.
This is going to be the back, so you wheel about a line that goes diagonally through the unit from corner to corner.

juample
03-03-2008, 00:49
theunwantedbeing, you have answered:

Whichever model moved the furthest and by the front.

This way?

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2854/baze1stgu9.jpg


In yellow the way i always use. In red what you have answered. Is this ok?

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8656/basec1lt4.jpg


In blue the way i always use. In red what you have answered. Is this ok?

grishnakh99
03-03-2008, 01:55
No I believe he's answered the yellow. By 'the unit that moves the farthest' he meant just in the front rank.

There are special, silly tactics that go along with this, such as the zombie conga line and the night goblin fanatic catapult.

Imagine a line of goblins 1 column wide and 7 ranks facing to the right:

GGGGGGG=>

The unit in the front wheels 90 degrees. (using less than an inch of movement)

Rear
G
G
G
G
G
G
G
Front

Now imagine a unit of 20 goblins, 1 wide, with 20 ranks. When they do this manoever, they will swing across the entire battle field, releasing their fanatics on potentially the first turn.

Its a cheap, annoying tactic to move units across the table.

By the way, what program do you use to make your drawings? They look really good.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-03-2008, 02:17
A wheel is measured by the movement of the front outside corner HOWEVER if you don't march no model in the unit can move further than its move stat start to finish, which can occasionally cause problems for longish units (notably Bretonnian lances).

grishnakh99
03-03-2008, 02:20
How many people calculate the back rank of a Bretonnian wheel and then combine that with the rest of their move? I always see them wheel, and then move forward the rest of their movement.

juample
03-03-2008, 03:05
I know the "gobling slingshot" move!
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2498/slingshotec4.jpg
But is this plenty legal?

Oftopic.
I use paint and capture.
The secret really is this one:

http://lwhfb.lorenzonuvoletta.com/

You cant test the web by loging "test" and pasword "test". Then click on play alone ;) to maka aby situation you can imagine. If you like you can make a donation to this Italian warhammer fanatic.

Depending on the diagram, sometimes (like with the slingshot diagram) i use "Despliege Marcus Belli" ("Deployment Marcus Belli" in english) A Flash deployment utilitie designed by some Guys in Marcus belli web (http://marcusbeli.urbenalia.com/). Sadly it is dawn becose of server troubles. It si not so much big if you are interested on it.

juample
03-03-2008, 03:08
A wheel is measured by the movement of the front outside corner HOWEVER if you don't march no model in the unit can move further than its move stat start to finish, which can occasionally cause problems for longish units (notably Bretonnian lances).

Are you telling that "slingshot" is only legal if you march?

What about charge?

DeathlessDraich
03-03-2008, 08:52
pg 12 "models ... cannot move further than their normal Move rate unless charging or marching"

Gazak Blacktoof
03-03-2008, 10:48
I believe the rulebook says to measure from the front corner when giving an example of a wheel (the yellow path in your example). However it also mentions not being able to move a model more than its movement characteristic or twice its movement characteristic if marching or charging (the red path).

The convention is to use the yellow path except where people are openly trying to abuse the rules, as in your goblin slignshot example.

juample
03-03-2008, 11:13
pg 12 "models ... cannot move further than their normal Move rate unless charging or marching"


This mean that if marching or charging slingshot is allowed and if not is disallowed?

This mean when you pursuit you cant move more even if you roll a high in dice?

This mean you have to measure in the red way of the pics above if not marching/charging??


I believe the rulebook says to measure from the front corner when giving an example of a wheel (the yellow path in your example). However it also mentions not being able to move a model more than its movement characteristic or twice its movement characteristic if marching or charging (the red path).

I think in no where of the rulebok talks about mesure in the front... but not sure still searching. Any way... it states not moving a unit more of his movement rate, but if the movement is calculated on the first rank, event the models of the rear rank move so much, the unit counts as being moving les than one/two inches...




The convention is to use the yellow path except where people are openly trying to abuse the rules, as in your goblin slignshot example.

This is the problem... what is abuse ian waht not. We know wheeling a bit will no, but gobling slingshot is. :D -still not sure if plenty legal...-

juample
03-03-2008, 11:57
Here comes, this is a tipical archer manoeuvres to avoid flanking them, AND still shot this turn as long as they not reform.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8049/archerstrafe2gu4.png

1 initial formation
2Turn (1/4M)
2.5 wheel if need until 1/4 of your movement(This is not in the picture, but you can do it... or not...)
3 change formation by increasing 4 models. to complete a 5x2 unit facing anywhere you want. Perfect if you are on a hill :D


Is this legal?

And if they will be 12 archers in the unit?

What about a unit of 30 archers goblins in line reforming to make a 5x6 formation... ┐They have move more than his movement value or they have just move all his movement?

Benigno (WE)
03-03-2008, 12:14
However it also mentions not being able to move a model more than its movement characteristic or twice its movement characteristic if marching or charging (the red path).


If we find the paragraph in the BRB that reads the bolded text, we have an answer.

juample
03-03-2008, 13:07
No so easy.


Think in the 30 goblins unit in a line.

They reform. (This cost them all his movement, no more no less, all)

The further models move more than 20 mm, but they doesn't march or charge, and really they are no moving more (they have jsut move all his movement....)

Do you know what i mean?

Milgram
03-03-2008, 13:54
yes, as the congaline per se vanished, 30 goblins in a line will never be able to change formation until you killed about 60% of them.

juample
03-03-2008, 15:11
yes, as the congaline per se vanished, 30 goblins in a line will never be able to change formation until you killed about 60% of them.

Did you mean reform or did you mean change formation?

Notice that you doesnt need 30 goblins.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8049/archerstrafe2gu4.png

Imagine the models in the pic are 10 drawen models . They Have M3, and if they turn and change formation (as seen in the pic) this manoeuvre is ilegal.

base size 20mm, last model has to move the wide of 8 bases, 160mm. A inch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch) is 25,4 mm/inch x 3inches= 75,12mm. Even elves can't do this movement (100,16mm<160mm...)


EDIT. To be exact, a line of 15 gobos cant reform and make a 5x3block becose this way they nedd to move more than 4 inches (100,16mm)

theunwantedbeing
03-03-2008, 15:20
*Sigh*
No model can move further than double their movement rate, except with a free alignment you get by getting into combat.

*edit*

As well as,feeing and other such randomly determined movement.
You dont get extra movement from moving normally.

Not even reforming, as it quite specifically says this.
As for wheeling, I'll stick with my original answer...whichever model moves the furthest, this can alternate between the front and back models.

That diagram is illegal anyway as you need to keep the centre of the unit in the same place just as the reform rules say!.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-03-2008, 15:21
If we find the paragraph in the BRB that reads the bolded text, we have an answer.

P 12- Movement

"Models... cannot move further than their normal Move rate unless charging, marching, pursuing or fleeing..."


P15- Marching

"Marching troops move at twice their normal Movement rate..."

++++++++

P12- Wheel

"To wheel, the leading edge of the formation moves forward, pivoting round one of the front corners. The unit swings round like the spoke of a turning wheel and completes the manoeuvre facing a different direction (See Diagram 13.1).

When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model....

For example, a unit of Empire Spearmen might wheel 2" to the left and move 2" straight forward for a total move of 4."

The "outside" model is generally considered to be the one furthest from the pivot on the front rank just to make it easy and because it ties in with the diagram. For a standard unit the distance travelled by models in the back ranks is marginally more than the distance travelled by the measured-to model.

For extreme cases (or all) you can obviously insist on the greatest distance travelled to be the one used, but most people don't unless you are trying to abuse the rules.

Its upto the person you're playing against to determine whether you are abusing the rules.

juample
03-03-2008, 15:29
That diagram is illegal anyway as you need to keep the centre of the unit in the same place just as the reform rules say!.

The diagram doesnt show a reform manoeuvre. It showa 2:

1 Turn.
2 Change formation.


Whell then you are with me in saying, a 5x2 unint 45║ wheel, cost less movement that one 5x6 45¬ wheel as long as rear ranks models move more isnt?

juample
03-03-2008, 15:42
For example, a unit of Empire Spearmen might wheel 2" to the left and move 2" straight forward for a total move of 4."
But the model of the rear ranks have moved more than 4inches.





For a standard unit the distance travelled by models in the back ranks is marginally more than the distance travelled by the measured-to model.


Marginaly?
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8656/basec1lt4.jpg

EDIT: I have calculated the movement distances. 2.22'' the blue way 5.14'' the red way for a wheeling of 45║.
EDIT: :D
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9331/basec1fj2.jpg

And there can be units up 15 (3x5) and you cant put characters in it...


And now. Ok a unit can move more f his M when it charges, but can move more than the double? How do you wheel? how do you mesure how movement have you spend in this wheel?


Bretinian opponents will say "Yes he is always abusing"."I thik it is a failed charge." :)

Gazak Blacktoof
03-03-2008, 16:00
Marginaly?
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8656/basec1lt4.jpg


Does that look like a "standard" unit to you?

As I said its down to you and your opponent.

The difference in distances for the spearmen is marginal, at least by my standards.

If you want to measure wheels from the most extreme model in every situation that's up to you, in my experience most people don't bother (edit: but it is the correct way of doing things).

theunwantedbeing
03-03-2008, 16:05
Whell then you are with me in saying, a 5x2 unint 45║ wheel, cost less movement that one 5x6 45¬ wheel as long as rear ranks models move more isnt?

I am having incredibly difficulty in making sense of a lot of things you are saying.
A 5x2 formation unit, wheeling 45 degree's moves less than
A 5x6 formation unit, wheeling 45 degree's?

If thats what youa re saying then yes, thats what the rules say anyway.
You wheel from the model on the outisde edge, which is the one who moves the furthest.
This stops you going over the limit of your march movement.

The diagram you posted is still doing an illegal move, unless of course those models are mv9(which is roughly the movement they need to execute that manover).

DeathlessDraich
03-03-2008, 16:05
No model can move further than double their movement rate, except with a free alignment you get by getting into combat.


Sorry, not being pedantic but there are 6 ways in which the rules support a model moving more than [double] its movement rate

juample
03-03-2008, 17:39
Pursuit, fleeing, charging, marching, flying, alingnement?

EDIT reform. :D

Here are the numbers for 20mm "standard" units.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4558/baze1stbv5.jpg

With 25mm bases will increase...

Gazak Blacktoof
03-03-2008, 18:35
Here are the numbers for 20mm "standard" units.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4558/baze1stbv5.jpg

With 25mm bases will increase...

Bigger than I thought but hardly abusive.

If you expect bret players to measure their lances from the back its only right that you don't get free movement and measure in the same manner.

I guess I'll start measuring all my wheels from the longest distance travelled and ask my opponents to do the same.

xragg
03-03-2008, 18:39
Sorry, not being pedantic but there are 6 ways in which the rules support a model moving more than [double] its movement rate

I will dig my book out later, but I am pretty sure there are 6 (as you say) ways that support a model moving farther then its base move.



When the lance formation used to look like a triangle, wheels were measured from the rear rank.
Basic geometry will tell you if your unit is deeper then it is wide, then the rear models will always move farther then the front models on a wheel. But in game mechanics, this typically doesnt effect game play. The only times it does really mess with game play is when a player does a turn with a wide single rank unit, wheeling, then turns back. ...or to do such things as the fanatic slingshot. Under these circumstances, I would require them to be restricted to the models move, since they are obviously trying to gain an unfair advantage.

theunwantedbeing
03-03-2008, 18:53
When it wheels a unit counts as moving as far as the outside model
The outside model is the one furthest from the corner you are wheeling, if the unit is more than 1 rank deep the model on the front rank furthest from the wheeling corner blatently isnt the outside model.

6 ways?
1.Free alignment to the enemy.
2.Fleeing
3.Persuing
4.Overrun
5.Charging
6.Marching
7.Reforming

Thats 7 ways of going over your base movement, but only the first 4 allow you to go over double your base movement.

Mercules
03-03-2008, 19:16
When it wheels a unit counts as moving as far as the outside model
The outside model is the one furthest from the corner you are wheeling, if the unit is more than 1 rank deep the model on the front rank furthest from the wheeling corner blatently isnt the outside model.

It does not say that... you grabbed out a piece of the rule.

To Wheel, the leading edge of the formation moves forward, pivoting round one of the front corners. The unit swings round like a spoke of a turning wheel and completes this manoeuvre facing a different direction.

When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model. Once the wheel is complete, you may use any movement that the unit has remaining.

It doesn't talk about the other ranks, just the leading edge AKA front rank and that "outside model" is the outside model of the front rank. The whole unit counts as having moved as far as that outside model of the front rank.

DeathlessDraich
03-03-2008, 20:48
Pursuit, fleeing, charging, marching, flying, alingnement?

EDIT reform. :D



I will dig my book out later, but I am pretty sure there are 6 (as you say) ways that support a model moving farther then its base move.
.


6 ways?
1.Free alignment to the enemy.
2.Fleeing
3.Persuing
4.Overrun
5.Charging
6.Marching
7.Reforming

Thats 7 ways of going over your base movement, but only the first 4 allow you to go over double your base movement.

I didn't expect my comment to generate this much response :D but I think this question was discussed and answered in the Rules quiz.

The 6 ways (with a debatable 7th IIRC) are for movement which could exceed double the base movement and so do not include marching and charging which are exactly double.

juample
03-03-2008, 23:15
If you expect bret players to measure their lances from the back its only right that you don't get free movement andmeasure in the same manner.

I play Brets!.


I guess I'll start measuring all my wheels from the longest distance travelled and ask my opponents to do the same.

DOnt do that Yet!! :D


When the lance formation used to look like a triangle, wheels were measured from the rear rank.

But it stated in their rules specifically also, the pivot on the rear not in the front, i think becose they were an exception. (And belive me there are no other way to do it)


But in game mechanics, this typically doesnt effect game play. The only times it does really mess with game play is when a player does a turn with a wide single rank unit, wheeling, then turns back.


I think calculate move on the rear is a serious problem for all bretonnian players. Really a dont think move in this way was correct. It brings more problems than solutions so i am firmly convinced cant be this way.


When it wheels a unit counts as moving as far as the outside model

OK. Rule as stated.


The outside model is the one furthest from the corner you are wheeling

Your interpretation, and IMHO wrong interpretation.


if the unit is more than 1 rank deep the model on the front rank furthest from the wheeling corner blatently isnt the outside model.

Note that no where in wheeling furthest, is stated in wheeling rule.



It doesn't talk about the other ranks, just the leading edge AKA front rank and that "outside model" is the outside model of the front rank. The whole unit counts as having moved as far as that outside model of the front rank.

I havent seen that I am with you Mercules!! THX. This way the movement of the rear models counts as the movement of the "leading edge". This way wheeling a model can move more, but it doesn't counts as having moved more.
Also all the diagrams suppourt this. All of them shows moving and wheeling in the front part. Pag 13,18, 22. It seems logic.

The bad thing is this allow the sling shot, but i prefer this option, legal slingshot, but comon sense to not use it VS many problems mesuring every wheelings.

Conotor
04-03-2008, 02:33
U cannot sling units accross the bord anymore. It usues the one that moved the most, so r = (weeling point) to (Front outside corner of opposite model in the last rank.)

!---+ +---+ So if +---+ is one model, r is ! to !.
(----) (----).......(----)
+---+ +---!
(----) (----)

Nedar
04-03-2008, 09:18
Simply put: juample's yellow lines in his first few pictures are correct as quoted by Mercules. The second sentence he quotes in post 32 clearly states that the unit counts as moving as much as the front rank's far model does regardless of how much farther the back rank did.

I personally hate Bretonnians and think the lance formation is complete bull, but you do not have to artifially limit it's movement by saying the back ranks move farther so you can't weel as far. The BRB tells you why as quoted above.

The goblin slingshot seems to work with said rule, but is just plain silly and if you try it you should be smacked in the face with a hardcovered rulebook for your trouble.

juample
04-03-2008, 13:16
The goblin slingshot seems to work with said rule, but is just plain silly and if you try it you should be smacked in the face with a hardcovered rulebook for your trouble.

:cheese:QFT:cheese:

Gazak Blacktoof
04-03-2008, 18:14
It doesn't talk about the other ranks, just the leading edge AKA front rank and that "outside model" is the outside model of the front rank. The whole unit counts as having moved as far as that outside model of the front rank.


It doesn't talk about the other ranks bu they're still there.

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it does it still make a sound?

At no point is the "outside" model specified as being one in the front rank irregadless of the unit's depth.

If we assume that the outside model is a model on the front rank as far from the pivot of the wheel as possible then its fine to measure the distance from that model. However you must also keep account of how far the other models in the unit have moved- none of them can move more than twice their move characteristic as specified in the rules.

T10
04-03-2008, 21:04
For most situations, measuring the movement according to the front rank is usually acceptable.

Here's an example of how this would work with finely organized unit on the parade ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAyu4w9sZFg

Please skip to about 01:10 and keep an eye on the unit at the bottom of the frame.

As you may notice, the unit "bends" as it continues to move, it does not stop and "slide".

-T10

Milgram
05-03-2008, 10:06
yeah. for most situations t10 is comletely right. if the unit moves forward after wheeling, then the relative distance of the one that wheeled the furthest (right word?) is reduced with each inch the unit moves forward. the distance he moves inside the formation may be more than his normal movement, but the total distance that he moves from spot to spot might be less.

Mercules
06-03-2008, 13:42
However you must also keep account of how far the other models in the unit have moved- none of them can move more than twice their move characteristic as specified in the rules.

And they do not, because all models are counted as moving as far as that outside model(of the front rank). The model on the outside of the front rank is implied by the wording of the rules if not explicitly stated.

Again:

To Wheel, the leading edge of the formation moves forward, pivoting round one of the front corners. The unit swings round like a spoke of a turning wheel and completes this manoeuvre facing a different direction.

When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model. Once the wheel is complete, you may use any movement that the unit has remaining.

Avian
06-03-2008, 13:59
The difference in distances for the spearmen is marginal, at least by my standards.
For a unit in a 5 x 5 formation, using the outside rear corner (wrong approach) gives you a 40% longer wheel than using the outside front corner (correct approach). I would hardly call that marginal unless the wheel was tiny.

theunwantedbeing
06-03-2008, 14:04
So wheeling from the front is correct?

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a 20 man deep 2 man wide unit, and then wheeling around the front edge to say.....use the fanatic slingshot technique?
Seems wrong to me....

Although you seem to be advocating that is perfectly fine.

Avian
06-03-2008, 14:11
So wheeling from the front is correct?
Not only is it correct, it is realistic*.


So there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a 20 man deep 2 man wide unit, and then wheeling around the front edge to say.....use the fanatic slingshot technique?
If ones thinks that exploiting loopholes is not wrong, then this is not wrong, no. It is certainly not illegal.



* apart from in a couple of fringe situations that exploit loopholes in the abstraction we need to use because our movement trays are not bendable

Mercules
06-03-2008, 16:14
So wheeling from the front is correct?

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a 20 man deep 2 man wide unit, and then wheeling around the front edge to say.....use the fanatic slingshot technique?
Seems wrong to me....

Although you seem to be advocating that is perfectly fine.

Nobody said there was nothing wrong with such a tactic. It is technically correct according RAW. Even so it is heavily frowned upon as an exploit of a rule. Even if you allowed such an action terrain can stop it. Scatter impassible terrain about the table and he won't be wheeling much.