View Full Version : Avatar of Death

03-03-2008, 08:25
When one plays a tournament, he is obliged to give a copy of the army list to the judges prior to playing. Now, as Avatar of Death does not specify what exactly a Vampire will use, are we able to switch weapons between battles? So, it is GW for the first battle, but I'll use two weapons in the second.

Dendo Star
03-03-2008, 08:31
As far as I understand it, all Character equipment must stay the same for each and every battle. The only thing I know of that is allowed to change from battle to battle in a tourney is Lore of Magic you use. This applies to High Elves, Empire, Wood Elves and other armies that may take different Lores.

03-03-2008, 08:50
Remember you model should be WYSIWYG too - so you'll probably have to model the option on the vampire.

Dendo Star
03-03-2008, 08:52
WYSIWYG is less enforced is Fantasy, it's only enforced to the nutty level in 40K. Yet another reason I do not play 40K!

03-03-2008, 09:02
True, but Avatar is not an equipment you buy, but a magic power, therefore an opponent does not have to know what you have and you don't have to show it, I guess. I don't want to change Avatar of Death for anything else between battles, just its aspect.

03-03-2008, 09:03
1) Your army list should be clear enough for the organiser if you state all upgrades and magic items. They will know the effects of all magic items and abilities.
If the special ability states you have a choice for a battle (i.e. select at the start of a battle) then you can change for each battle.
If the special ability states you have a choice for combat then you can change for each combat.

2) You can select any weapon at the start of any close combat if you have a choice. e.g. spearmen could select handweapons instead of spears etc - pg 54 "at the start of the first turn of combat ... choose ...weapons"
The weapon cannot be changed from then onwards unless otherwise specified.

03-03-2008, 09:12
Avatar of Death states that the Vampire gets Heavy Armor and a weapon of choice: GW, HW + Shield, 2nd HW

And I have never heard of an item that states you have a choice for battle. As far as I know, there is no such item designed for tournaments. And, of course, once you choose for a battle, you cannot change your choice of Avatar of Death, I am just wondering, since we do have a choice once we get that power, do we still have the choice between battles.

03-03-2008, 09:52
Well some characters can choose more than one weapon so this not entirely new - see Grandmaster below.

I do not have the new VC book yet - lucky you!:p
It depends on the exact wording of Avatar of Death which could be similar to the Slayer Axes special ability where the Slayer has a choice in every *close combat*.

1) If Avatar states that the VC character has GW and 2 hand weapons, then it will work like Slayer axes.
N.B. Empire Templar Grandmaster has 3 choices - lance, HW and GW and can use any for every new combat.

2) If it states that the character can choose GW or 2 HW for no extra pts or for the points paid for this special ability then it is for a battle

In this case,
If it is a magic item you do not have to divulge your choice.
If it is similar to the old Bloodline, Mark of Chaos, then tournament courtesy requires that you do state them.
IIRC the present VC special abilities are similar to WE kindreds and spites or Lizardmen Blessed Spawnings which you *do not* have to reveal them until necessary although some players of good sp[ortsmanship do.

03-03-2008, 10:18
I guess it depends on who the tournament organiser is and what he thinks. So it probably changes form tourney to tourney.

03-03-2008, 11:55
It is a vampire power. For the points cost you get a heavy armor and you get a choice of weapons: GW/HW+Shield/2ndHW. You cannot switch between weapons in a battle, because you must choose before you commence the fight. This is so because Vampires cannot get mundane armor or weapons in any other way other than vampire powers.

As it is courtesy to reveal such things, there are no problems, but as this is also a magic power it does not have to be represented on a model, as magic items are not bound to WYSIWYG.

The thing that is a question is, as Avatar of Death does not bound you to using exact weapon but rather gives you a choice for the battle, can you switch weapons between battles?

The Clairvoyant
03-03-2008, 12:27
i'd say you keep the same config of AoD with every game.
Any other hero who gets mundane equipment would be forced to specify and so it should be the same for using AoD.

If you bought a hellsteed for your vampire, would it be fair to downgrade it to a normal nightmare for the second game just because it can have either in the army list?

03-03-2008, 12:45
Hellsteed example is not the same thing. I am not switching Avatar of Death for anything else, nothing has been changed in my list. It is not the option of the army list, but ability of a vampire power. I am specifying that I will be using Avatar of Death.

03-03-2008, 13:15
I'd say keep the same equipment throughout the tourney.

03-03-2008, 13:28
As the power does not direct you to chose at the start of the battle, it seems appropriate to chose when you purchase the power.


The Clairvoyant
03-03-2008, 13:41
The hellsteed argument is exactly the same - changing the army list. Just because it has the same name, it doesn't mean you haven't changed your list.

In the interests of fair play, pick your option and stick with it for every game.

04-03-2008, 08:51
The hellsteed argument is exactly the same - changing the army list. Just because it has the same name, it doesn't mean you haven't changed your list.

In the interests of fair play, pick your option and stick with it for every game.

The Hellsteed arguement is completely different. It is like asking to change that Wight King to a Necromancer. A more accurate comparison is that My Dark Elf Sorceress can take choose from the Lores of Death, Dark and Shadow Magic before the game. Is she stuck with the same lore every game? At least that is the closest comparison i can see.

04-03-2008, 09:02
Why in gods name AoD does not say the vampire has a GW, extra HW, and shield is beyond me. For 20 blood line points I should get all of those mundane options to use as I see fit. Not to mention i should be getting full-*******-plate with the power too.

As it's worded you chose one of the options though, it would make sense that you would pick the weapon and he would use it for the whole of a tournament as it would be his specialty. Though the wording is ambiguous at best, and because it is not a purchased item like a hellsteed vs a nightmare it is not bound by the same rules. Because it is a power that gives you the item you might deem it necisarry to come up with a different weapon in a successive battle.

I suppose you could alike AoD to Forbidden Lore. As they are worded similarly and it is generally agreed that FL lets you chose a lore before each battle. Though it is worth noting that the BRB does talk about chosing lores before battles already, and not anything about a power letting you chose multiple weapons.

I'd just say to run with a set up you chose for all games you play. If he totes a GW, why would in another game he decide to take two handweapons instead? Sure you can back it up with fluff of your own to make it beliviable; but it might be best to just stick with a weapon for the duration of a tournament.

04-03-2008, 09:05
Exactly as TheDarkDaff said. I can say I got a Vampire with Dark Acolyte and Avatar of Death. That is all that is required to be said, because in such manner I have predefined what my character is. Can you switch spells between games? You have changed your army list, because the caster is not the same. On the other hand, you have not changed anything, in the same manner Avatar of Death does not change. Better comparison would be High Elven Seerstaff of Saphery. If you take it on a tourney, do you have to stick with the first chosen spells throughout the whole tournament, or do you switch them between battles? That is exactly the same thing as it gives you the choice, and in the same way as Avatar of Death, it mentions nothing about changing between battles.

04-03-2008, 09:21
Just ask the guy that holds the tournament.