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mad dog
03-03-2008, 10:47
Just need some clarification of how magic resistance works v spells not directly cast on the unit. Obviously it doesn't work against spells cast on an enemy unit or character, or on something like Comet of Cassandora. How about an area effect spell like Crown of Taidron?

While the spell is not cast directly at the unit with MR, the wording in the English rulebook says " ..when trying to dispel each spell that affects the magically resistant model" and later on "any spell targetted against the unit". So my feeling is that an area effect spell like CoT both affects and targets the unit with MR (assuming they are within the 12" effective range of the spell), therefore MR can be used to dispel.

How about MR versus a bound spell like the TK casket of souls? if the MR unit has line of site to the casket and is affected by the spell MR applies right?

thanks guys

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-03-2008, 12:07
How about MR versus a bound spell like the TK casket of souls? if the MR unit has line of site to the casket and is affected by the spell MR applies right?


Yes. It's simple really, if you are hit by the spell, you get any MR the unit might have.

Oenghus
03-03-2008, 12:28
Yup. Use the highest applicable MR value, for all units affected by the spell.

T10
03-03-2008, 13:06
In most cases it can be clearly established at the time the spell is cast if the magic resistant unit is affected or not. The Crown of Taidorn is one of these spells.

A number of spells are less obvious. Vermin Tide and the Comet of Cassandora are established as successfully cast *first*, and determining which targets are affected is a part of the process of working out the effects. Taking Magic Resistance into account for these spells is tricky.

-T10

Atrahasis
03-03-2008, 13:42
Dispel attempts come before [EDIT: NOT after, silly me :P] range is measured, so it is not always apparent with AOE spells whether MR is allowed.

My suggestion is to have the player attempt a dispel without any MR, then to measure range and add any relevant MR dice to the dispel attempt. Either that or roll different coloured dice for the MR and discount them if they shouldn't apply.

This retains the normal circumstance that both players need to judge the range of the spell before measuring.

T10
03-03-2008, 14:03
I am inclined to disagree. There is no cause to suggest that the player making the dispel attempt need guess whether MR applies or not.

-T10

Atrahasis
03-03-2008, 14:26
Apart from the fact that dispel attempts EXPRESSLY come before measuring range?

There is no suggestion that AOE spells are any different in this regard.

juample
03-03-2008, 14:31
Dispel attempts come after range is measured

I always mesure range after dispell roll.


1 Roll to cast
2 Roll to dispel
3 Spell Efects...

isnt?

PS What is a AOE spell?

Atrahasis
03-03-2008, 14:34
I've corrected my previous post :)

AOE = Area of Effect

Armilthuan
03-03-2008, 14:35
For spells with targets, you have two kinds:

Spells for which you must nominate a target before you cast, this includes spells with an area of effect, like Crown of Taidron.

Spells for which the target is determined 'after' the spell is cast, spells like this are Burning Head and Comet of Cassandora.

If a MR unit is targetted BEFORE the spell is cast, it can add it's MR to the dispell attempt.

Obviously (at least to me), if the MR unit becomes a target AFTER the spell is cast, it cannot use it's MR ability.

That's how I view it.

juample
03-03-2008, 14:38
reference: Pag 108. DISPELLING. Third paragraph.

Oenghus
03-03-2008, 16:16
Obviously (at least to me), if the MR unit becomes a target AFTER the spell is cast, it cannot use it's MR ability.


So in your opinion a character with MR 2 could be targeted by the Burning Head spell without being able to make use of his/her MR value?

Certainly makes that spell a bit more viable, if that's the case.

GodHead
03-03-2008, 17:01
His position is untenable. You measure range for every spell after dispel attempts. Every magic missile, every enemy effecting spell, all but a tiny handful of infinite range spells. This would make Magic Resistance totally useless, as, even if "it looks like" you're within that 24" magic missile (like say if you know you're 10 inches away), Armilthuan could just say "SORRY! NO! WE DON'T MEASURE UNTIL LATER!!!"

Go with T10's interpretation or Atrahasis'. They're not totally insane.

Atrahasis
03-03-2008, 17:36
Godhead, my method allows MR when it is applicable without critically disrupting the normal order of Cast, Dispel, Measure.

You may have me confused with Armilthuan, who is smoking something expensive.

GodHead
03-03-2008, 17:58
Ahh yes. You have my apologies. The two back to back posts by guys with names starting with A, with no avatar picture blended together for me. Will edit above.

juample
03-03-2008, 18:29
I like the idea of rolling dice of another color.

If you calculate right the distance you can avoid losting dispell dice in a out of range spell.
In the same way, if you have good eye, yo can avoid using one more dice you need...

In example. AOE spell is casted with a 8+ you know with 3 dice is enought and one of your units has MR(1) is posibly affected. You decide to roll 2 dispel dices, plus one of the magic resitnce (in color red). If you are right and the spell afects the unit you count the red die, if not... only the other 2.

T10
04-03-2008, 07:34
Apart from the fact that dispel attempts EXPRESSLY come before measuring range?

There is no suggestion that AOE spells are any different in this regard.

Apart from nothing. Magic Resistance and determining ranges is the whole "chicken-and-the-egg" debate: You don't make the dispel attempt before adding MR and you don't add MR unless you know unit is affected.

-T10

mad dog
04-03-2008, 08:51
Thank you all for your replies and debate - clearly MR is a slightly tricky issue ( I don't feel quite so daft now!)

OK so logic is that MR applies if the spell range (bound or otherwise) is known (allows for more random spells like vermintide, comet etc) and a MR unit is to be affected. The debate is whether or not the MR unit is in range. Seems then that the logical thing is to declare that you are going to dispel it, check to see if the MR unit is in range (a lot of the time it will probaby be fairly obviousanyway) and allocate dispel dice accordingly. Otherwise MR just becomes a gimmick of limited use.

I would hope that two opponents with IQ's in three figues could agree on this without too much blood being shed.

TheDarkDaff
04-03-2008, 09:26
Apart from nothing. Magic Resistance and determining ranges is the whole "chicken-and-the-egg" debate: You don't make the dispel attempt before adding MR and you don't add MR unless you know unit is affected.

-T10

Just to muddy the waters a little more you also can only use the dice generated by MR against a spell "targeted" at he MR Unit.

BTW The Comet is a special case because it specifically targets a point on the Table. Unless the Table top has MR you don't get to use it.

Benigno (WE)
04-03-2008, 10:48
Just to muddy the waters a little more you also can only use the dice generated by MR against a spell "targeted" at he MR Unit.

BTW The Comet is a special case because it specifically targets a point on the Table. Unless the Table top has MR you don't get to use it.

This makes some situations a little bit weird, but it takes sense. Following the MR definition, you cannot use the extra dice if the unit is not directly "targeted" by the spell.

We had that situation when my opponent casted a burning head against my wardancers, and the spells does not target the wardancers, so... >_<

EvC
04-03-2008, 14:22
Just measure to see if the MR unit is affected. You're not actually measuring the range, you're checking for magic resistance ;)

Models hit by Burning Head are certainly affected and should always be given their MR.

Benigno (WE)
04-03-2008, 15:28
Models hit by Burning Head are certainly affected and should always be given their MR.

I'm afraid that you are wrong, BRB page 95, Magic Resistance, first paragraph reads:

"...These can be either be used on their own against any spell targeted against the unit, or in addition..."

So, if you can't find another rule that reads other thing, you cannot use MR dice to dispell Burning Head.

EvC
04-03-2008, 15:36
Well, when you shoot the Burning Head at a unit, are you targeting it? I think you are, and would even go so far as to say you'd be dishonest to claim otherwise ;)

Edit: Also, please give the full quote, as you might miss part of the text, as when Atrahasis says it can be sued where you're merely affected (not targeted), I know to trust his word.

I suddenly have visions of the Simpsons episode, "I'm just going to swing my arms like this, and if you get in the way it's your own fault!"...

Atrahasis
04-03-2008, 15:41
MR can be used against any spell affecting the unit, not just targeting.

GodHead
04-03-2008, 16:01
Otherwise the Casket of Souls just got a lot better... (which it should, but that's another issue).

mad dog
04-03-2008, 21:46
I'd say that burning head is targetting them if it is clearly within the 18" range of the spell.
seems to me that players need to think about the spirit of the game and the intention behind the MR rules.

TheDarkDaff
05-03-2008, 01:28
MR can be used against any spell affecting the unit, not just targeting.

This is entirely true but the next sentance tells us when the dice generated by a MR Unit being affected by a spell may only be used when they are targeted by the spell. I would argue theat any AoA spell does "target" the unit if the unit is in the effected area.

GodHead
05-03-2008, 01:39
Particularly since we have precedence from the Casket of Souls. It's area of effect is "everyone looking at it" and we have it on good authority in the FAQs that any unit that can see it, and so is effected by it, can apply its magic resistance against it.

Any other interpretation would frankly be stupid and render MR useless.