PDA

View Full Version : 4 quick questions about the new VC rules.



Weazle
03-03-2008, 11:28
I just bought the new Vampire Counts book and I immediately took a liking to it. Maybe I'm about to start my very first Fantasy army :p

However, some questions arose while I read through the book, and hopefully you guys can help me answer them.


1 - A unit can only move once with Vanhel's, but can you Danse it once to get it into combat and once more to boost it for the fight? Or do I even have to cast it twice to get the ASF etc?

2 - If you give your Vampire a Mastery power he can use Invocation of Nehek to increase a unit above it's starting size, but can he increase it above its maximum size (more than 10 Fell Bats for instance)?

3 - Raised Zombies do not gain any command models, right?

4 - Can Walach's Bloody Hauberk be combined with an Enchanted Shield? The rules specifically state that it can be combined with a shield, but (almost) any magic armour can be combined with a mundane shield, so why did they bother spelling it out if they didn't intend it to be an exception to the normal rules?

niox
03-03-2008, 11:37
1. You can cast vanhelīs a second time on a unit, after first having cast the spell to move them into contact with the enemy, to give the unit ASF and reroll missed attacks.
You NEED to cast it a second time to give the unit the bonuses in close combat.
2. Yes, he can increase them above maximun size. The maximun size only apply when you buy the unit.
3. No. you raise normal zombies. No standard or musician.
4. No, you canīt combine it with a enchanted shield. Youīre only allowed to have one magic armor. And the Bloody Haubrek never state that you may take an additional MAGIC armor.
As i see it the line about combining it with shield, barding etc isnīt needed.

Jagosaja
03-03-2008, 11:42
1)You have to cast it twice

2)I don't know

3)They don't

4)There have been many disputes here on that topic. Until official opinion on that comes from GW, I guess you cannot combine those two as no two magic armor items can be combined with each other. Although you have the point, there is something about that extra added wording, though it is unclear what they meant by it.

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-03-2008, 12:06
I don't see how it's a question. You can't take the Enchanted Shield if you have another set of magic armour, and nothing in the description of the Bloody Hauberk changes that. All it says is that if you have a shield, it can be combined with that. It's likely because of the way you buy equipment in the new list(eg. a shield and heavy armour at the same time(.

Jagosaja
03-03-2008, 12:14
Well, why doesn't it say anything like that for Accursed Armor, Armor of Night, Cadaverous Cuirass or Nightshroud? They can also be taken with shield, but nothing like that is stated. Why is that sentence needed, what makes that armor special in comparison to the other, that it needs the addition?

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-03-2008, 12:21
Ah fair enough, I haven't actually looked much at any of the armours as I'm only using the Flayed Hauberk myself.
Mostly I would think it's just an editing problem. Either that line was suppose to be there for all but got missed out, or it wasn't suppose to be there at all, but was left in.
It doesn't actually mean anything and certainly doesn't grant you access to taking two pieces of magical armour or anything like that.

Jagosaja
03-03-2008, 12:28
Yeah, I agree, it is most probably an editing problem. But it ain't fair from GW to give hopes of exceptions.

Necronoxz
03-03-2008, 19:02
1. you need to cast dance 2 times to get the charge move and the asf
2. yes this is posible but read what he can raise above it's start size ;)
3. raised unit's are alway's WITHOUT comand groups.
4. this is easy as hell just read all:

walach's bloody hauberk 45 points
the wearer has a 4+ armour save that may be combined with steeds, SHIELD, etc.
walach's bloody hauberk also confers a 5+ ward save.

Here stands you can combinate it with all other items to improve your save.
I NEVER HAVE READ 1 RULE ABOUT YOU CANT USE A MAGIC ARMOUR AND A MAGIC SHIELD!!!!!!!!!
the only point is you cant wear 2 magic armour's ofcourse.
so you can have a magic armour a magic shield ;)
but you cant have 2 magic armour's!!!
for example take high elfs you can take on 1 char:
-armour of protection
-enchanted shield
-helm of fortune
-temakador's gauntlets
this are 4 magic armour selections but they are all on a different part of your char ;)
so you can wear all of those so you MAY take all of those ;) there is no spefisical rule you cant. the only rule stands is you cant take 2 arcane items.

Atrahasis
03-03-2008, 19:15
I NEVER HAVE READ 1 RULE ABOUT YOU CANT USE A MAGIC ARMOUR AND A MAGIC SHIELD!!!!!!!!!Then I suggest you read page 121 of the rulebook.

Dendo Star
03-03-2008, 19:48
1. you need to cast dance 2 times to get the
I NEVER HAVE READ 1 RULE ABOUT YOU CANT USE A MAGIC ARMOUR AND A MAGIC SHIELD!!!!!!!!!
the only point is you cant wear 2 magic armour's ofcourse.


I am glad you can utterly disprove yourself and then ignore the fact that you did.:rolleyes:

Nedar
04-03-2008, 09:29
The reason WBH states you can combine it with a shield and steed is simply because WBH is not a Suit of Magic armor. All the other Magic armors (except Flayed Hauberk, which too is not a Suit of Magic armor either) explicitly state: Heavy Armor or Light Armor as the first part of their description.

Always keep in mind this simple fact: The name of the item is irrevalvent. WBH is not a suit of armor, but simple magical armor (could be a coif, bangle, greeve, or diaper for all we know) that confers a 4+ armor save that can be combined with "Steed, Shield, etc". It has been argued that "etc" includes mundane armor, which is not entirely correct or incorrect.

But, contrary to what Necronoxz thinks he knows: Enchanted Shields can not be combined with magic armor of any type and his HE character is illegal. You can only ever have one piece of magic armor. This sucks because Enchanted Shield + Cadaverous Cuirass would be awsome :D

mad dog
04-03-2008, 09:35
Here stands you can combinate it with all other items to improve your save.
I NEVER HAVE READ 1 RULE ABOUT YOU CANT USE A MAGIC ARMOUR AND A MAGIC SHIELD!!!!!!!!!
the only point is you cant wear 2 magic armour's ofcourse.
so you can have a magic armour a magic shield ;)
but you cant have 2 magic armour's!!!
for example take high elfs you can take on 1 char:
-armour of protection
-enchanted shield
-helm of fortune
-temakador's gauntlets
this are 4 magic armour selections but they are all on a different part of your char ;)
so you can wear all of those so you MAY take all of those ;) there is no spefisical rule you cant. the only rule stands is you cant take 2 arcane items.

Unless the HE book specifies otherwise you cannot have more than one item of a certain type.

Rulebook: Magic Items: page 120: paragraph 3:" A character can only have one magic item of each type (weapon, armour etc) unless otherwise indicated"

Jagosaja
04-03-2008, 09:56
The reason WBH states you can combine it with a shield and steed is simply because WBH is not a Suit of Magic armor. All the other Magic armors (except Flayed Hauberk, which too is not a Suit of Magic armor either) explicitly state: Heavy Armor or Light Armor as the first part of their description.

Always keep in mind this simple fact: The name of the item is irrevalvent. WBH is not a suit of armor, but simple magical armor (could be a coif, bangle, greeve, or diaper for all we know) that confers a 4+ armor save that can be combined with "Steed, Shield, etc". It has been argued that "etc" includes mundane armor, which is not entirely correct or incorrect.

WBH is a Magic Armor item. If it is not a magical Heavy or Light Armor, and it is said that it can be combined, than I see no reason it cannot be combined with ordinary Heavy or Light Armor. I know this was a part of a big discussion, but I can see we are getting very close to the truth, what WBH truly is and what can it be combined with.

If it is a suit of Magic Armor as others in the section, why is that sentence there, remains unknown, and I believe GW has to explain.

The Clairvoyant
04-03-2008, 12:29
i believe the reason it says WBH combines with other equipment is simply because it also says the Flayed Hauberk doesn't. It creates a distinction between the two hauberks.

I don't see what the fuss is about, personally! :D

Atrahasis
04-03-2008, 12:46
Jagosaja : Magical armours cannot be combined with mundane armour unless they are specifically shields or helms.

grishnakh99
04-03-2008, 23:34
So the HE mask which is not specifically a Helm cannot be combined with armour?

This is news to me.

Atrahasis
04-03-2008, 23:39
The HE Mask is specifically a mask and therefore a special case.

Since the Hauberk doesn't specify what it is, the default is that it cannot be combined with mundane suits of armour.

Nedar
05-03-2008, 01:24
Don't get your point really Jag. It only says it can be combined with Shield and Steed and "etc" due to the fact is is NOT labeled as a certain type of armor at all. WBH is not a suit of armor...period. It's just magical armor. By the letter of the rules magical armor can never be combined with other magic armor unless one of the items states otherwise.

You can gather that WBH is not a shield by the description, but that is it. It's an armor that is not a suit, or a shield and that is all we know. Since it's not a shield it can be combined with a mundane one, and a steed as well (wich essentially is extraneous anyway)...it's just letting you know so you don't get confused. Which is silly when there are so many areas of the book they did not spare us this problem.

Clairvoyant, keep in mind the name of an item is meaningless to how it functions :D But your observation makes sense since both items are likely the same kind of armor (Not a suit) but one can be improved and the other can not.

Interestingly, there is nothing saying you can't take a shield or steed with Flayed Hauberk, but it doesn't matter since your save is capped at 2+ :rolleyes:.

Nurgling Chieftain
05-03-2008, 01:46
Not entirely pointless, since magic items can potentially be negated.

WLBjork
05-03-2008, 09:20
The HE Mask is specifically a mask and therefore a special case.

Since the Hauberk doesn't specify what it is, the default is that it cannot be combined with mundane suits of armour.

Probably a Hauberk (yeah, stating the obvious but...), but I'd guess GW decided for simplicity to assume people don't know what a Hauberk is, so wrote the rules accordingly.

For those interested, a Hauberk is a (scale/chain/ring) mail shirt, which can come down to the knee (as depicted on the Bayeaux Tapestry for example).

Jagosaja
05-03-2008, 10:20
And can be worn beneath plate armor, right? I mean, real hauberk.

Atrahasis
05-03-2008, 10:32
Clairvoyant, keep in mind the name of an item is meaningless to how it functions :D Only true for magic weapons.

Jagosaja
05-03-2008, 12:24
True for any magic item. Every Heavy or Light Armor has stated in its description that it is a suit of Heavy or Light Armor.

Atrahasis
05-03-2008, 12:32
Would you care to support that assertion with a rules quotation?

That certain armours have "heavy armour" or "light armour" in their description only serves to show what save they confer and what they become if their magical properties are negated.

There is no general rule that magical items' names are irrelevant - the only such rule applies to magical weapons, which lose the properties of their mundane counterparts unless stated in their description.

Jagosaja
05-03-2008, 13:44
Can you combine High Elven Mask of Merlord or Temakador's Gauntlets with mundane Heavy or Light Armor? Are they Shield or Helm, which by the BRB are only things that can be combined with mundane Heavy or Light Armor? Is it stated they can be combined with other stuff? What is the difference between them and Hauberk? If it is the name "hauberk" that makes you think different and claim it is a sort of armor that cannot be worn with other armor but shield, tell me what is The Fur of Sharrgu? Bullgut? Gutmaw? Greedy Fist? Great Skull? Their name does not suggest anything about Light or Heavy Armor, or Helm or Shield. But for Wood Elven Railarian's Mantle or Briarhearth it is clearly stated what they are Light Armor because their name does not say anything. And tell me, what will Walach Bloody Hauberk become if we destroy it's magic properties? What Armor Save will it provide, being an armor? If none, why shouldn't we combine it with mundane armor?

Edit: Beasts of Chaos Army Book, page 63, PELT OF THE DARK YOUNG

"The Pelt confers a 6+ Scaly Skin save that can be combined with normal armour. It also gives the bearer and any unit he joins Magic Resistance (1)."

It is neither a shield nor helm. Are you trying to say we cannot combine this one with Heavy or Light Armour too?

Nurgling Chieftain
05-03-2008, 19:48
Bad example. Scaly skin explicitly stacks with normal armour.

SuperBeast
05-03-2008, 20:10
Please could you quote the rules for 1 or 2 of the items listed above?

Bit difficult to discuss when you have no idea what you're discussing...

Jagosaja
05-03-2008, 22:32
There is no need to be judgemental when you don't know if I have an idea what am I discussing. I am not throwing infantile insults at you claiming that I am right because I think you supposedly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Fact is, and I can quote from any of the books, that there are items, especially ones I have mentioned, that don't have explicit description what they are, except that they are there in the section of Magic Armor items. They are not magical Heavy or Light Armor, and they are not magical Shields or Helmets. They are fur, or pelt, or maw, or skull, or fist. But such items are regularly combined with other armor, am I not right? One can put Fur of Sharggu or Pelt of The Dark Young over other mundane armor. That overrides the rule in BRB. What rule in the rulebook allows fur or pelt to be put over (or beneath, it is the same rulewise) Heavy Armor, and denies hauberk the same right? Please, as I don't have the Vampire Counts Army Book yet, but have most of the others in front of me, write down the full description of Walach's Bloody Hauberk, and I'll write down the full description of The Fur os Sharrgu, and we will compare them. With no insults or high emotions.

The Clairvoyant
05-03-2008, 22:54
There is no need to be judgemental when you don't know if I have an idea what am I discussing. I am not throwing infantile insults at you claiming that I am right because I think you supposedly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Fact is, and I can quote from any of the books, that there are items, especially ones I have mentioned, that don't have explicit description what they are, except that they are there in the section of Magic Armor items. They are not magical Heavy or Light Armor, and they are not magical Shields or Helmets. They are fur, or pelt, or maw, or skull, or fist. But such items are regularly combined with other armor, am I not right? One can put Fur of Sharggu or Pelt of The Dark Young over other mundane armor. That overrides the rule in BRB. What rule in the rulebook allows fur or pelt to be put over (or beneath, it is the same rulewise) Heavy Armor, and denies hauberk the same right? Please, as I don't have the Vampire Counts Army Book yet, but have most of the others in front of me, write down the full description of Walach's Bloody Hauberk, and I'll write down the full description of The Fur os Sharrgu, and we will compare them. With no insults or high emotions.

Unlike the other items in the magic armour section of the new VC book, neither hauberk specifically states that it is heavy or light armour. I guess this is because the saves granted override any heavy/light armour connotations. Should an item or spell stop magic armour from working, then i would treat the vampire as unarmoured, not call it heavy armour.
I would also not argue for hauberks being combined with normal armour, basically cos it makes no sense.

SuperBeast
05-03-2008, 23:31
There is no need to be judgemental when you don't know if I have an idea what am I discussing. I am not throwing infantile insults at you claiming that I am right because I think you supposedly don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Woah, hang on there, pilgrim.
I was talking about ME not having any idea. Jeez...
Otherwise, I wouldn't have asked?
(I'd also love to know how, even when read as you have, my post constitutes an 'infantile insult'.)

Also, having had a read... ALL the other Vamp armours specify 'Heavy' or 'light' armour in the first sentence of their rules.
Apart from the two items named 'hauberk'.
As the flayed hauberk states no other save increases are possible, we can ignore it for now.
Regardless of anything else, we are all agreed that the Hauberks are magical armour, yes?

The other thing to note... All the 'heavy or light armour' items do not state their save, merely the additional special rule.
The hauberks specifically state the save they provide.

BRB, page 121, Magic Armour.
'If a character wears magical armour, he cannot also wear ordinary armour and, needless to say, he can only wear one set of armour.'

It goes on to specify the three types as armour, shield or helm, and that only one of the three may be worn.
As the VC rules do not specify the Hauberk as either shield or helm, it is armour.
So it replaces any mundane armour the Vamp may have, but can still be combined with a shield or mounts, etc.

The 'rule in the rulebook' allowing the dark pelt or whatever isn't there.
Because normally, you can't, as stated above.
What you DO have, is special wordings related to the specific magic items that overrides that.

For the ogre kit, I think you may have to read outside the items themselves for the wordings you're after.
In the case of ironfists specifically, it's stated elsewhere in the book that they can be used as shields or hand weapons IIRC.
I'd like to see your quoted examples, especially as the wording of the pelt rules blew a hole in your own argument when you presented them as evidence for it...
The rules for the item specifically state it can be combined, which override any rules in the BRB.

Without specification against, BRB has precedent.
Examples please.

Jagosaja
07-03-2008, 07:37
I got my book last evening, and guess what I checked first?

WALACH'S BLOODY HAUBERK :D

I completely take back all I have said and apologize for confusion. It was due to my lack of knowledge of what was exactly written that I have made claims of mixing armour, and I was wrong. Even though the statement for WBH is not usually met for other items of Magic Armor, it is clearly stated what it can be combined with, and there was nothing like "can be combined with other armor", as I have assumed.

Though the "etc" part of the explanation of the item may present further misunderstandings, I believe it was meant for barding and such. So, by my belief, WBH truly cannot be mixed with mundane Heavy or Light Armor.

However, several other questions rose in the course of reading the rules:

1) Aura of Dark Majesty explicitly states that the -1 penalty to Ld is "cumulative with any other modifiers". Does that "other" part mean that it can be used with conjunction with another Aura of Dark Majesty as well or only with the "other" means of lowering enemy Ld?

2) "Ethereal movement" special rule claims that movement of ethereal creatures is "never affected by any special rule, spell or item that would otherwise reduce their movement or stop them for moving completely." Here is the tricky part. Does this mean that ethereal creatures cannot be march blocked?

And just for a notice, I was very happy when I saw that attacks from ethereal creatures are in fact magical :evilgrin:

T10
07-03-2008, 09:18
I suggest starting a new thread for new questions.

-T10

Spirit
07-03-2008, 21:17
1) Aura of Dark Majesty explicitly states that the -1 penalty to Ld is "cumulative with any other modifiers". Does that "other" part mean that it can be used with conjunction with another Aura of Dark Majesty as well or only with the "other" means of lowering enemy Ld?



The ability specifically states "one or more vampires with the power will reduce the units Ld by ONE, so no, it wont stack."