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SuperBeast
03-03-2008, 20:18
Hi folks.
Still a little green with VC's, so probably noobish...

Raise dead states that you "form up the unit around" the model you place.
In practice, does this mean 'centre' (like 40k deep strike placement) or 'centre of front rank'?

With IoN, what happens if the back rank of the unit moves into friendly or enemy troops?
I'm certain it doesn't result in combat, but what happens? Does the contacted unit move back, or do you have to stop adding models to the unit?

juample
03-03-2008, 23:20
I should move the rear unit to add the new models.

T10
04-03-2008, 07:49
The Raise Dead spelll does not go into great detail as to how the unit is arranged, but you can't go far wrong following the procedure laid out in the Invocation of Nehek spell description.

When having more models to add than there is room for, I would suggest not adding the models. Moving units around to make room for new models is disruptive and can be abusive.

Think about it:

-If it's ok to move your own units out of the way to make room for the new models, then why not move enemy units as well?

-If it's ok to move the unit forward to make room for the models in the back, surely there is nothing wrong with setting up long, thin lines of zombies and adding models to them to make them "move" forward.

-T10

SuperBeast
04-03-2008, 08:26
Cheers T10.
I'd been playing the IoN definition, and wanted to check. :)

The blocking raised model option is far less likely to result in arguments, so I think I'll use that...

Ara
04-03-2008, 15:52
If you want a big unit and arent sure you have space behind then simply make the front rank wider than 5 models and find a chance to reform later if needed.

One-S
04-03-2008, 16:48
Raise dead states that you "form up the unit around" the model you place.
In practice, does this mean 'centre' (like 40k deep strike placement) or 'centre of front rank'?

With IoN, what happens if the back rank of the unit moves into friendly or enemy troops?
I'm certain it doesn't result in combat, but what happens? Does the contacted unit move back, or do you have to stop adding models to the unit?

Raise death: I think they meant 'centre of front rank', otherwise you could go beyond the 12 inch range limit.

IoN: I'd suggest to add the models, you did raise them after all.
Add them in the front of the unit. Then swap command models or caracters to the front rank again. If you don't get a full front rank, take the needed models from the rear rank to fill it up. At least thats what I would do.

GodHead
04-03-2008, 16:58
I'm fairly certain that, in the old rules, if you didn't have room for the models they were lost.

I would consider that a good precedent to follow.

T10
04-03-2008, 20:48
The 6th edition Vampire Counts book does not address the issue. Wich is just as well, I guess. It would be unreasonable, three years from now, to refer new players to an out-of-print version of their army list for a precedent.

-T10

GodHead
04-03-2008, 20:51
I believe it wasn't the 6th edition book, but rather an article written by Gav in one of the Chronicles.

I wasn't suggesting it be trotted out when a player wants to prove to their opponent, but rather that the reasoning in the article still makes sense, and should be applied.

I believe the reasoning was that 1.) there is no provision for moving your unit outside of the regular methods. 2.) The spell does not alter the formation of the unit, so it must keep the same width, or number of files. 3.) Your units may not be within 1" of opponents units without engaging them in combat.

Without looking, I may of course just be making the whole precedent thing up, but the reasoning makes sense independent of my potentially overactive imagination.

T10
04-03-2008, 20:52
Raise death: I think they meant 'centre of front rank', otherwise you could go beyond the 12 inch range limit.

IoN: I'd suggest to add the models, you did raise them after all.
Add them in the front of the unit.

Raise Dead: You are not required to create the entire unit within 12".

Invocation of Nehek: Increasing the width of the unit not only breaks the directions laid down in the spell description; it is also merely a variation of the same issue.

-T10

Yade
04-03-2008, 21:51
You should NEVER move a unit to place the models. If you chose to put them where they do not fit then you lose them.

Remember that you do notneed to designate where the models are going to go, in the case of a new unit, before you cast and see how many you get. Meaning you can choose many locations. It is also important to note that the models can be as long and as wide as you want them. A rank is defined as models wide, it is not limited to 5 (5 is the minimum you need to claim a bonus it is not the max you can line up as)

If you want to squeeze a zombie unit into a tiny gap between units then you are going to have to sacrifice some models. more importantly remember that the ONLY instance in which it is ok to violate the 1" of an enemy rule is during the combat phase.

WLBjork
05-03-2008, 09:33
Raise Dead: You are not required to create the entire unit within 12".

Invocation of Nehek: Increasing the width of the unit not only breaks the directions laid down in the spell description; it is also merely a variation of the same issue.

-T10

Not if there is only 1 rank left with fewer than 5 files of course ;)

T10
05-03-2008, 09:40
Of course. :)

But if the unit consisted of one single zombie hemmed in on all sides by, say, a unit of skirmishers...

The more I think about it, the more reasonable it seems to require that there actually be room to place the newly raised models.

-T10

UltimateNagash
05-03-2008, 13:39
What I think it means is you can go
[][]
[][]
or
[][][][][]
or
[]
[]
[]
etc
but when you move past the front rank of 5, you have to keep adding new ranks, can't expand the front rank etc

Going from what I remember, am at uni atm...

Yade
05-03-2008, 15:07
What I think it means is you can go
[][]
[][]
or
[][][][][]
or
[]
[]
[]
etc
but when you move past the front rank of 5, you have to keep adding new ranks, can't expand the front rank etc

Going from what I remember, am at uni atm...

You are partially correct, the only thing I would add is that peope assume that "ranked up" arbitrarily means a max of 5 wide because of the rank bonus rule.

UltimateNagash
05-03-2008, 17:34
You could go
[][][][][][][][][][]][]
but as soon as there is a rank of 5 or more models, and at least 1 model in the next rank, you have to make ranks...

T10
06-03-2008, 04:20
Yes. Raise dead is 5 models per rank minimum.

-T10