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View Full Version : How to use Grave Guard??



tom1354788
06-03-2008, 21:17
First off let me apologise for yet another VC thread, even i am getting a little sick of them but...

How are people going to use there grave guard? i have been writing many lists mainly at 2250 points, and am having difficulty judging how to set them up.

firstly i know that the great weapon option is by far the best option for a number of reason, but personally because i like the shields so much (model wise) i wont be using them but that is neither here nor there.

what i want to know is:

1. what units can say 20 grave guard go up against unsupported?(without characters in)

2. Do they need character support?

3. If so is putting a lord in there too much?

4. what is the optimal size for grave guard? can you get away with less supported and unsupported with characters?

Fo a while i was thinking of running with 2 units of 20 grave guard, a vamp in each,and my lord in a units of skeletons. which i really like, but due to point squeaze in my list i considered droping a unit of grave guard for another unit of skeletons. The lord in the grave guard and the vampires in the skeletons? Is this a much weaker setup for a saving of 126 points roughly?

Does it make a diffrence if the lord is very magicy instead of combat orientated? ie a combat lord in grave guard is probably too much but if you put a lord in a unit of grave guard that you dont really want to put into combat then your wasting the grave guard right?


anyway time to stop jabbering on any thoughts?

W0lf
06-03-2008, 22:21
Lord goes in Grave Guard.

Grave guard unit size from 20-30.

Shields every single time not Gws. Banner of dead legion so when you win it matters.
Ideally throw a wight BSB in aswell but that can be a bit too many eggs in one basket :D

ZiggyQubert
06-03-2008, 22:37
there are always the grave guard that hit on 2's are str 6 and regenerate... and with some corpse carts they would strike first as well.....

I'll leave it to you to figure out how they do that.... ;)

tom1354788
07-03-2008, 00:40
do you not think both those suggestions are overkill? and would cost too many points?

Felworth
07-03-2008, 03:00
Shields every single time not Gws.


I'm curious why not great weapons?

KB is nice and and all but its not something I find to be reliable. With the appropriate "spell/banner/vampire wearing a fancy hat" aiding their ability to hit the enemy you might as well make them strength 6 so all those hits won't bounce off or be deflected by armor saves.

sulla
07-03-2008, 07:02
It's still more important for infantry to 'not die' than it is for them to kill enemies. Grave guard with hw&shield are simply excellent at 'not dieing'... especially combined with virtually unstoppable magical repairing now.

Any kills, especially those aided by the corpse cart or other magic should be considered a bonus.

Latro
07-03-2008, 07:07
... or a totally different strategy:

Instead of one large and very expensive UNIT-OF-UBER-DOOM (!!!), you go the way of multiple small elite (MSE) units. Field several units of Grave Guard that are very wide instead of deep:

10x Grave Guard
- Champion
- Great Weapons

... nice and cheap, great to use in your battle-line as support for the larger tarpit units.

14x Grave Guard
- Full Command + War Banner
- Great Weapons

... cost more (but still a lot cheaper than the UNIT-OF-UBER-DOOM), but also very capable of grinding its way through enemy units all on its own.

These cheaper version work best when supported by a strong magic phase.


:cool:

Jagosaja
07-03-2008, 08:06
Peronally, I take a unit 14 strong, 2 ranks 7 wide, for maximum output. I give them Banner of Barrows and Great Weapons. As I place big blocks of the infantry, I always look that some piece of terrain serves me to protect one of my flanks, and place Grave Guard between the blocks and that terrain. I don't place characters inside, instead I keep the formation tight, with the Vampire Lord with Helm of Commandment near by in case they need WS7 to hit on 2. IMHO, there is no need to replace their ability to strike with S6 with better protection. As they have T4 and AS 5+, the ability to raise D6 warriors each turn to repair them is sufficient to keep them full.

p3990013
07-03-2008, 08:40
Personally I don't like them at all. I think that black knights are far better and have more uses, as all heavy cavalry does anyway when compared to infantry.

But they look good, I can testify that...

Jedi152
07-03-2008, 08:41
I'm still torn between gw's and hw+shield.

On the one hand, you expect to hit last anyway, so you might as well get a gw, but the increased save warrants the hw+shield combo...

What does everyone else use?


there are always the grave guard that hit on 2's are str 6 and regenerate... and with some corpse carts they would strike first as well.....

I'll leave it to you to figure out how they do that.... ;)
I'm guessing great weapons, vampire with crown of use-my-WS, banner of the barrows.

heinrichvoncarstein
07-03-2008, 12:27
I'm thinking of getting konrad and putting him in my unit of 20 grave guard instead of my lord so that i don't put too many eggs in one basket

jme
07-03-2008, 12:43
Im using GW. Seeing as GG are T4 and can now be raised, they can be very hard to get rid of. I would rather kill my oppenent first with St6 (and corpse cart) than let him hit me back! In regards to character set up, I would't put a uber unit of doom down, I believe it to be a point sink that can be avioded. A cheap vampire for some back up should be more than enough.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
07-03-2008, 15:10
...there is no need to replace their ability to strike with S6 with better protection. As they have T4 and AS 5+, the ability to raise D6 warriors each turn to repair them is sufficient to keep them full.

Yeah, but a weaker save means more casualties, and that can make the difference between winning and losing combats.

I think both set ups are useful. I myself haven't decided yet, although the fact that I have 30 painted GG with HW + Shield from last edition makes the choice a bit easier as of now. :p

Oberon
07-03-2008, 15:26
I've playtested (not formally of course!!) only a regiment of 20 with shields, deployed 5x4, either without characters, or with wight (nightshroud, bsb, sword of kings). Helm of Command is awesome with them, as is banner of barrows. They can take almost any charge, and with some nice vanhels they will get a charge too, nice static CR and resilience+very hitty with 2+ to hit S4 killing blows. Of course, I've played with dwarves before, so I prefer not dying above killing. GG are very good in this. IMO they don't need characters, not lords at least (besides, who is there to give them uber WS if the lord stands with them?).

CarlostheCraven
07-03-2008, 22:28
Hi

I will admit I have been erring on the side of overkill so far with the new vampire counts, but this is what I have taken:

Vampire Lord - infinite hatred, beguile, crown, blooddrinker, Cad Cuirass, lvl 4 (or Vlad)
Wight BSB, HA, Sh, Drak Banner (regen)
22-25 GG (depending on the list), FC, Banner of the barrows, HA, HW & Sh

Vampire with helm of commandment within 12" in a unit of skeletons.

This unit has crushed everything that it has faced. Just power it up the middle at the ugliest enemy unit, protect the flanks with skellies, ghouls, zombies, etc and watch things die.

I picked up thirty more grave guard with the plan to use them with great weapons - when you hit on 2+ you also want to wound on 2+.

All told, is it over 1000 points? Yes, but if your opponent can't defeat it, they will have a very hard time getting a significant victory.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Spirit
07-03-2008, 23:41
I always go with HW and shield.

Great weapons are all well and good, but it means you NEED a vampire within 12" thats NOT in combat to be worth it
WS3 and S6 isn't as good as a nails save.

3+ save is great in combat, they don't need to kill things to win.

If your desperate put a vampire in with walking death and hatred and the blood drinker. Sure, he doesn't have armour, but he gets 3 S5 attacks that raise a GG every time he slices something AND he gives +1 combat res.

Or do the same but give him a horse, that way he gets a 2+ save AND can use a lance or the sword, and you quite often get the charge as undead now.

Also a BSB for another +1 to combat and it stops you losing combat by much.

I always have a hard time eciding for knights and GG, even more so now i have both units!!

Dux Ducis
07-03-2008, 23:52
If your desperate put a vampire in with walking death and hatred and the blood drinker. Sure, he doesn't have armour, but he gets 3 S5 attacks that raise a GG every time he slices something AND he gives +1 combat res.

I thought that sword only raised skeletons?

Spirit
07-03-2008, 23:59
No, they are 2 seperate weapons

Tomb Blade,
if the user is in a unit of skeletons, every time he kills someone a skeleton is raised, 25 points

Blood Drinker (Vampires only)
For each unsaved wound inflicted by the blood drinker, the wielder (or any unit he is with) immediately regains a wound it has suffered earlier in the battle, as if I.O.N had been cast on them) 40 points.

Arnizipal
08-03-2008, 01:50
Blood Drinker (Vampires only)
For each unsaved wound inflicted by the blood drinker, the wielder (or any unit he is with) immediately regains a wound it has suffered earlier in the battle, as if I.O.N had been cast on them) 40 points.
Combine that with a Corpse Cart with an Unholy Lodestone with a two skellies for one kill ratio. :cheese:

Spirit
08-03-2008, 02:03
Hmm, im not so sure about that to be honest.

Mind you, the tomb blade says "following the rules of i.o.n" and the blood drinker says "as if i.o.n had been cast on the unit" so i suppose that is realistic. Would be nasty getting 2 grave guard or black knights! back with every swipe...

Goldenwolf
08-03-2008, 05:34
Well I also use the HW & Shield, as getting to the point where you can strike is good. I admit the Corpse cart is a nice add-on, but anyone who gets smacked by that combo once, will avoid the GG like the plague after that.

HW & Shield gets a 3+ save in CC, and that's pretty sweet for undead. I do like the idea of the GW, but getting hit first will probably remove some of the lads, and I'd rather win CR.

najo
08-03-2008, 08:23
Most of the replies are looking at this wrong. Nearly every suggestion (except the one that Black Knights are superior) is correct. It all depends on what role you want the grave gaurd to fill in the army.

First, all grave gaurd are good for the following reason: decent stats (for undead) + good save + T4 + regain d6 models from invocation of nehek. This means they are going to hold out and take enemy with them (instead of being a tarpit of easy refilling but little killing like the zombies).

Then when how many you take, how they equip and what characters join them change their role.

1) Great weapon, small unit: Is a pure damage dealer that can cross the field because of T4 and d6 wounds with ION. Add a hero or lord and it becomes a more potent damage dealer. This unit is strong as a support unit and on the charges.

2) Hand Weapon and Shield, small unit: This is a reliable roadblock. If supported with magic then it becomes a very reliable roadblock. With a character it is going to give you the ability to eat a unit its fighting up slowly, but lock the character down.

3) HW + Shield and large unit: This is a solid infantry unit with a good rank bonus. It will win its fights based on what it goes up against, and whether it has a character in it. With no character, it kills smaller units. With a hero type it is a scary well-rounded unit. With a lord it is going to be your death incarnate kill anything if you flank the enemy too.

As for infantry vs cavalry. They play different roles. Cavalry hit hard and have little staying power in the long run. They excel at the charge. Infantry bog thinsgs down and provide rank bonuses. Infantry supported well win the fights.

Personally, I think a smaller great weapon unit and a larger hand weapon + shield unit is a good combo. Give them a hero with a good magic weapon who can move between the units if needed and you'll see some scary stuff happen. Make sure the hero can use Invcation of Nehek reliably.

Irisado
08-03-2008, 10:31
It's been a while since I've played a game of Fantasy, but my favoured option with Grave Guard would be to take a large unit of them and equip with Hand Weapons and Shields.

I have thirty of the sixth edition metal models, and I plan to use as many of them as I can once I start tailoring my Vampire Counts army to the new army book.

In addition, the psychological impact of 'Killing Blow' should not be underestimated. There are many players who will have second thoughts about sending their tougher units lead by characters into a fight against Grave Guard for fear of their character being toppled by 'Killing Blow'. Yes, characters with a ward save may feel more inclined to chance it, but it would still be something of a risk. Grave Guard are a fantastic unit for unnerving an opponent in my view.

eleveninches
08-03-2008, 11:25
15 GG with Greath weapons and the banner of the dead legion. and a charachter nearby, and a corpse cart nearby,

GrogsnotPowwabomba
08-03-2008, 15:23
Question:

I have a bunch of the 6th Edition Grave Guard. How do these guys look next to the new plastic Grave Guard models? Do they look awkward next to each other or is it conceivable to mix them?

CarlostheCraven
08-03-2008, 16:22
Looks wise - They really don't mix well at all.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

tom1354788
08-03-2008, 19:04
thats guys for all the replies,

I think Grave guard are awsome, as so i want to run 2 units of them, and have them as my main fighting units in a 2250 point list. (my other main unit is a unit of skellies with my lord in) i also have 2 units of 10 ghouls to support my grave guard.

As a ex empire general my main tactic is to use my ghouls as detachments for my grave guard, and to come in on a side charge as the grave guard undoubtly will hold a charge unless totally wiped out, which is another reason why i personally like shields over great weapons, apart for asthetic reasons.

One thing that i have started to think about however is the corpse cart which ititially i really didnt like the look of or rules for, but now have totally changed my mind on both fronts. Here is my thought, is it viable to put a corpse cart in a unit of grave guard? (obviously the Necro is there to allow it to be in the unit rules wise) what impact does this have upon a unit of say 20, good and bad?

Evil-Lite
09-03-2008, 01:38
Here is my thought, is it viable to put a corpse cart in a unit of grave guard? (obviously the Necro is there to allow it to be in the unit rules wise) what impact does this have upon a unit of say 20, good and bad?

I would not call it a good tactic. The Corpse Cart works better as support then in the middle of the fighting.

Spirit
09-03-2008, 03:54
On the corpse cart in GG units.

It is viable, but much better in a unit of skeletons.

It takes up 8 slots in the unit, and thus gives you an extra "rank" bonus. But, as you rGG will be hitting nasty things, they can pick off the 2W T3 necromancer with ease. However it will displace 2 kiling blow attacks (or 3) for 2d6 WS2 S2 attacks, not so good.

In a unit of skellies you have all the bonuses, but they can go for rank and file, and the necro has 2d6 S2 attacks and his attack (passably striking first!) to kill the 3 models that will be targeting the necro in combat. Easy to do against say, swordsman, hard to do against hitty things, that your GG will be killing.

tom1354788
09-03-2008, 14:02
I think your probably right. Shame though as sticking a corpse cart in a unit of Grave guard looks awsome!!

Spirit
09-03-2008, 14:06
lol, just get one in between your GG and your knights with staff of damnation.

Don't know about looking cool, but getting a bound "all my GG and knights get a free attack" is never bad!