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the_picto
06-03-2008, 23:12
Just a quick question regarding the above item.

If you challenge a character on a monstrous mount, both the character and the mount fight. So if the speculum is used against them, can you choose which to swap stats with?

Thanks.

theunwantedbeing
06-03-2008, 23:19
The rider only.

marv335
06-03-2008, 23:29
so no giving your engineer dragon stats ;)

Dendo Star
07-03-2008, 01:46
The Engineer can't take Magic Items anyway.:cries:

kroq'gar
07-03-2008, 01:54
The Engineer can't take Magic Items anyway.:cries:

But he can take a mechanical horse instead.....

seriously the final nail in that character choices coffin.

Dendo Star
07-03-2008, 03:13
You know our pain. The Empire 7th Ed. book was pretty good, but how may other armies have insultingly useless Hero characters?

sulla
07-03-2008, 07:08
You know our pain. The Empire 7th Ed. book was pretty good, but how may other armies have insultingly useless Hero characters?

Dark elves for another few months, at least. And goblin bosses are of dubious worth other than aesthetically looking nicer than an orc in the goblin ranks. :evilgrin: The WWII Italians had notoriously poor heroes too allegedly but you probably just meant for warhammer...;)

knightime98
07-03-2008, 07:22
You know our pain. The Empire 7th Ed. book was pretty good, but how may other armies have insultingly useless Hero characters?

Skink Chief's for Lizardmen.. They are worthless... Mighty T3!

havoc626
07-03-2008, 09:51
Skink Chief's for Lizardmen.. They are worthless... Mighty T3!

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. My mighty T3 skink managed to kill a Lord of Change and two Tzeentch Daemon Princes in 1 of their own magic phases. Praise be to Shield of the Mirrored Pool

DeathlessDraich
07-03-2008, 11:16
Just a quick question regarding the above item.

If you challenge a character on a monstrous mount, both the character and the mount fight. So if the speculum is used against them, can you choose which to swap stats with?

Thanks.

The rules are unclear on this and it does require an FAQ.

My preferred interpretation:
If the challenge involves a mount then either all of either the enemy’s mount’s stats or the rider’s stats can be swapped. The Speculum bearer may not choose some stats from the rider and others from the mount.
However, only the bearer’s stats and not the bearer’s mount’s stats may be used by the enemy in the challenge. “bearer can swap his WS, S,T,I,A ... with those of his enemy.”

The word ‘enemy’ is too general and could include a character or his mount.

Morph
20-03-2008, 18:03
My interpretation has always been the same as DeathlessDraich's.

Caboose123
20-03-2008, 18:42
Noob Question: When you challenge someone in a chariot they get off their chariot, is it not the same for monstrous mounts?

Would that resolve this issue completely?

Masque
20-03-2008, 19:50
They don't get off their chariot...

marv335
21-03-2008, 00:42
I saw a game the other day where the (allegedly useless) engineer commanded a hellblaster gun.
The improved Bs was horrible to behold.

Jonke
21-03-2008, 00:48
Noob Question: When you challenge someone in a chariot they get off their chariot, is it not the same for monstrous mounts?

Would that resolve this issue completely?

The character doesn't dismount the chariot, but the crew does not fight in the challenge. Monstrous mounts as well as the steeds pulling a chariot does fight in challenges.

alextroy
21-03-2008, 01:24
A challenge is between two characters (see BRB pages 76-7). Mounts (steeds, Monstrous Mounts, and Chariots) participate in the challenge, but the challenge is between the two characters. The clear intent of the magic item is for the two characters to exchange stats.

IronBrother
21-03-2008, 01:42
I have to agree with alextroy. It is meant for characters.

theunwantedbeing
21-03-2008, 01:47
Just another case of the GW design team showing their inability to write rules properly, as well as the ineptness of the playtesters and people who proofread the books.

Crispian25
21-03-2008, 03:00
Alextroy's interpretation is how I have always read it, and how I've seen it played by other Empire players I know.

Caboose123
22-03-2008, 04:42
They don't get off their chariot...

Well, my information was gleaned from a (fairly old) battle report, where it was decided the TK character would get out of his chariot for the challenge. Trusting this battle report was a big mistake, and after checking the rules it turns out you're right.

On a similar note the "his enemy" is WAY too generic (the wording of whose stats he takes with the speculum). Technically, his enemy could be the Vampire Lord halfway across the table, nowhere does it say "his enemy in the challenge". Obviously this is a stupid train of thought, but just look at where you're heading with this debate...

Everyone knows what was intended, looking farther than that is just plain dumb.

Draconian77
22-03-2008, 07:39
But horses hating people is perfectly rational? Im after you Caboose ;)

If GW ever bring out a codex without a badly worded rule or a misspelled vital word here and there the universe might collapse in on its self and Warhammer as we know it would cease to exist!

Gazak Blacktoof
22-03-2008, 15:25
Just another case of the GW design team showing their inability to write rules properly, as well as the ineptness of the playtesters and people who proofread the books.

To be fair this is the 1st time I've ever seen anybody ask this question and van horstman's specualum has been using the same rules for a very long time AFAIK.

soots
22-03-2008, 15:59
If the mount is participating in the challenge, then it is a part of the challenge. The Speculum guy gets to choose who in the challenge to swap with.

Caboose123
22-03-2008, 19:42
If the mount is participating in the challenge, then it is a part of the challenge. The Speculum guy gets to choose who in the challenge to swap with.

This is not obvious. The rules are incredibly badly written. This is your assumption, then again your also assuming that the rules include the words "in the challenge", which it doesn't.

[SYN] Ace
23-03-2008, 00:04
To be fair this is the 1st time I've ever seen anybody ask this question and van horstman's specualum has been using the same rules for a very long time AFAIK.
I've seen it come up a couple of times. I always play it that the characters swap stats, but they really need to change the wording from "enemy" to "enemy character" just to remove any ambiguity.

W0lf
23-03-2008, 00:59
there seems to be too arguements:

The rider.
The mount (e.g you choose and hes on a dragon...)

Why not both?

Im pretty sure that Chaos lord on his Dragon is your enemy :P

But then again im just trying to stir up trouble?

(seriously thou this is why i dont like rules laywering.

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2008, 01:04
Yeah the speculum says nothing about getting to choose.
Your opponents mount is as much your enemy as your opponent is, so what if he gets to choose?

So using it on anyone with a steed means you get the stats of the horse, one of which is zero so you automatically die when you use it.

W0lf
23-03-2008, 01:09
i see your as big a fan of RAW as i am ;)

Draconian77
23-03-2008, 01:19
Anyone else think these rules would not spread "En masse" if people didn't post up the question in the first place ;)

But for now Im working under the assumption it means the enemy character.

Caboose123
23-03-2008, 01:46
Ah, but there may be some poor soul who honestly didnt know that this would lead to something this silly....

In tournaments RAW is supposed to be accepted and played, so there is some need to ask/answer this question though...

showmydog
23-03-2008, 03:27
well, its states clearly 'in a challenge' you can swap your stats, and as you can only 'challenge' another character you will swap with the rider and not the mount, as a dragon is a MONSTEROUS MOUNT and not a CHARACTER.
QED

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2008, 03:34
You realise that the mounts take part too dont you?
Hence the debate.

Caboose123
23-03-2008, 16:30
well, its states clearly 'in a challenge' you can swap your stats, and as you can only 'challenge' another character you will swap with the rider and not the mount, as a dragon is a MONSTEROUS MOUNT and not a CHARACTER.
QED

It says "in a challenge" he can swap his stats with those of "his enemy".

It may have been implied that it is reffering to the enemy in the challenge, but this is not how its written :p

alextroy
23-03-2008, 17:12
Oddly enough, it doesn't say "with one of his enemies" or "his enemy or his enemy's mount". Therefore, it doesn't support allowing him to do that either.

Caboose123
23-03-2008, 19:00
Yeah, but you're assuming his enemy is referring to the the enemy character, why would it be that instead of his/her mount? They are both equally his enemy.

True it doesnt say you can choose between the mount or his character, but you cant assume it means the character...

alextroy
23-03-2008, 21:23
Really? There more evidence for that then there is for assuming it means the character's mount.

Caboose123
23-03-2008, 22:21
Okay, you're saying there is more evidence that it is the character not his mount.

Since the phrasing is "his enemy", and both the character and his mount take part in the challenge, i don't see your train of thought here...

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2008, 22:25
ANyone want to quote what the item says?(well the relevant bits of course...doesnt need to be all of it, fairly sure thats against forum rules..just the bit thats relevant to this discussion)

alextroy
24-03-2008, 03:37
Van Hortmann's Speculum
When the wearer fights a challenge he can 'swap' his base Weapon Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative and Attacks value with those of his enemy.

And Caboose123: See Post 16 of this thread.

Caboose123
24-03-2008, 05:35
Oh, im not debating the intent, i agree with post 16. (You :p)
The intent probably was for the character to swap his stats with the opposing character, this is how i would always use it and how it should be used, IMHO.

But for RAW and tournament settings, im fairly sure if the character with this trinket challenges a unit champion he could take the stats of the Vampire across the board! Or, if he challenges a elven lord on a dragon, he could take the dragons stats.
Basically because "his enemy" is too vague, although i would hate to see someone use this RAW...

showmydog
24-03-2008, 12:53
But for RAW and tournament settings, im fairly sure if the character with this trinket challenges a unit champion he could take the stats of the Vampire across the board! Or, if he challenges a elven lord on a dragon, he could take the dragons stats.
Basically because "his enemy" is too vague, although i would hate to see someone use this RAW...

well said, i think we can use common sense to clear this up, if you extend 'his enemy' to the mount, then why not any random character (or model?) anywhere on the table (or off, perhaps a special character from some other army book). after all it never states that the enemy has to be in the challenge or even on the table.

its the case of GW making a careless and innocent assumption that people will be sensible and play sensibly.

kroq'gar
27-03-2008, 03:17
Well put above.

Its pretty straight forwards... its the 'enemy' engaged in the challenge. I personally believe that if a model cannot independantly issue a challange its stats cant be swapped. EG a treeman ancient can have stats swapped, and star dragon cannot.

If you take this that slant on this RAW then as above you could take the stats of that cannon over there and become T7.

Braad
27-03-2008, 07:36
If you take the T of a cannon, my guess is that some other important stats will becoma a -.
But my guess on this is that the intend is that stats are swapped with the challenged character, since it is specifically talking about the challenge and the item is intended to be used in one...
I don't think there is a real straightforward answer here, though, as long as we don't have a FAQ or something. A bit of common sense would probably give the best answer.


Noob Question: When you challenge someone in a chariot they get off their chariot, is it not the same for monstrous mounts?

Just on a sidenote, I believe "stepping down the chariot" was the wording in the 6th edition book. So not a really strange thought.

DeathlessDraich
27-03-2008, 11:00
well said, i think we can use common sense to clear this up, if you extend 'his enemy' to the mount, then why not any random character (or model?) anywhere on the table (or off, perhaps a special character from some other army book). after all it never states that the enemy has to be in the challenge or even on the table.

its the case of GW making a careless and innocent assumption that people will be sensible and play sensibly.

1) There is a big difference in swapping stats with the mount and swapping stats with any model.

The mount takes part in a challenge, other models on the battlefield do not.



If you take this that slant on this RAW then as above you could take the stats of that cannon over there and become T7.

2) A cannon (machine) can never take part in a challenge because the machine is not a mount. Engineers count as crew and take part in a challenge in the normal way - away from the rest of the unit.

3) The word 'enemy' is the root cause of the ambiguity but the main problem is the way rules are written.
a) Important words should be clearly defined e.g. unit, model, movement , close combat, turn etc etc
b) Only the words which are properly defined should be used in rules which are brief and to the point.

This is how the rules for most games and sports are laid out.
Unfortunately after 7 editions GW cannot see the value of writing rules in the correct formal way.

The most annoying aspect for me is the way GW writes its FAQs - with constant reference to the original rules as if the original rules were rigorously written.

Caboose123
27-03-2008, 22:01
@ DeathlessDraich


1) There is a big difference in swapping stats with the mount and swapping stats with any model.

The mount takes part in a challenge, other models on the battlefield do not.

Ah, but the rules for Van Horstmann's speculum dont say he swaps the stats with his enemy in the challenge, it just says in a challenge he can swap the stats with his enemy!
Reading this by RAW could mean you could in fact take the stats of any enemy unit on the board!

If you take the stats of a cannon, and one of your stats does become - or 0, wouldnt that result in premature death; If a stat is reduced to 0 doesnt the model die?...

Draconian77
27-03-2008, 23:52
Hmm, still hacking this thread to pieces are we?

Im pretty sure if one of your stats becomes a 0 or - you just got removed from existence.(Not killed, you where essentially un-created.) :D

I think most people play the "it means the character" rule and if someone plays it to mean steeds too(or god forbid, any model on the table :rolleyes:) then a quick vote of trip to your local rules guru should sort it out.

If your rules guru is an incompetant, replace as necessary with a proxy whilst controlling him from the shadows like the omnipitant gaming god that you are...

I almost sigged myself. ;)

Lord Dan
28-03-2008, 00:46
So you can choose between my Vampire Lord or a barded nightmare. Knock yourself out.

Caboose123
28-03-2008, 04:32
Or the varguhlf on the other side of the board! :D (Dont have the new VC book, so i dont know if those stats would be any better :p)

Or the zombie that was raised in front of you cannon...

Or (with proper fluff included) your grand master, who the character wielding the speculum has a grudge against... grrr... :evilgrin:
Thats pushing it too far though :p

Braad
28-03-2008, 16:41
Uhm... I think if either of the stats S,T or W is reduced to 0, you die.
But it could be more than just these 3, but this rule does not apply to all stats.