View Full Version : Help fighting Empire with Chaos

07-03-2008, 12:41
Whenever I fight a defensive empire army with lots of cannons and handguns I usually get my ass handed to me and I would like any tips or advice people could give me about how to beat a gunline as Chaos.

My army changes a lot but it usually looks something like this.

level 4 slaanesh bray shaman

level 2 slaanesh bray shaman

2 exalted champions, one of these is the general and the other sometimes has a steed of slaanesh and berserker sword.

2 knight regiments one of which is upgraded to chosen and the other sometimes has mark of Khorne

3*5 warhounds

5 horsemen

1 chariot

5 furies

5-10 Centigors

1 beastherd size varies

4 dragon ogres or sometimes a Hellcannon

A few ideas that crossed my mind was either trying a Chaos lord with gaze of the gods on a chaos dragon but since I usually play 2000p that would take up almost half my army and I have abseloutly no experience with a chaos dragon.

I also considered making the army beast with a lot of mortal/demon units so I could put some units in ambush but again I don't have any experience with this and since I have never seen a chaos army use this tactic I assume it isnt as good on the board as it maybe sounds in theory?

I have also been considering putting in some dogs of war crossbowmen (this isn't just to fire back at those defensive armies but also something I thought could generally work well in a chaos army) but I am afraid that people might think of it as lame to use a dogs of war unit solely to fill an obvious gap in the army?

I would really appreciate any help you might be able to give me.

07-03-2008, 14:17
Against gunlines you really need something to get into the gunline quickly and make a mess. It doesn't have to be great like a dragon, it could be a spawn or two of slannesh. While not reliable all the time they can cause enough trouble to disrupt the firing on your main units. Spawn are good cause they are pretty cheap too. You could add more furies to try and flank which would do the same thing.

Your hero champions are not going to be that great against a gunline. I would consider dropping one or maybe both of them to get a faster option or bigger units. Your units are small so you either need to add more to them or get more small units. Two characters are just sapping points when more boots on the ground will do more damage and last longer. Thats my two cents, cheers.

07-03-2008, 16:19
Well fiends of Slannesh actually dont move more than 10 on average which isn't all that fast, although I can't say I got a whole lot of experience with them. Why is it that you want me to try and flank with my fuiries? So they can't use stand and shoot?

And yeah I agree that I shouldn't use more than one exalted champion if they are both on a steed (need at least one to be general) but now that I think about it I can't remember the last time I used 2 without 1 having a Steed of Slannesh and berserker sword which is quite a nasty combo :P

But I think I better test the fiends since I got a couple of models anyway. Thanks for the advice :)

07-03-2008, 16:31
Cannons and handguns are singularly useless against herds so I'd try to take as many of these as you can. You may also want to make your fury unit bigger to guarantee that it survives the one turn of magic before they get into combat vs warmachines.

When I play against guns with my beasts I generally try to keep things like my expensive but powerful units hidden from the enemy for the first couple of turns until my herds, centigor and furies have dispatched the nastiest shooty things. This sometimes means taking a long route to the enemy around a forest but at least they don't get hurt so much. The disadvantage here is that you risk you quick units failing to achieve their objective and then your power units are in no position to get stuck in.

Alternatively take as many units that are capable of charging by your second turn and just rush straight forwards. It doesn't make for a very thought provoking game for either side though :)

07-03-2008, 20:40
You want something fast like flyers to hit a far flank because
a. they aren't the best fighters on their own, so they need to fight a unit that can't be supported in the following turn.
b. if you can collapse a flank then you can roll straight down the gunline making units flee

It helps having a flyer start this and the rest of your army follows. but your army is pretty fast in general so this could mean using your whole army on one flank. This denies some shooting at you because all your units are out of range from a portion of the enemy. Looking at your list again, I'm not sure spawn will help. They do help when you have more infantry but your all mounted up.

Heres what I would do with your list if your going to face a gunline.
Drop a ex champion
drop the chosen to regular knights
maybe drop 1 dragon ogre
play with the points a bit to get:
a few more furies
another beastherd to act as a screen. Stretch them out like a wall to prevent some shooting on faster units.


another unit of centigors, just to have another fast unit with decent punch.

I would suggest trying a giant as well if you have one. Hes fast enough to keep up with your army, a large target that might draw some fire from your better hitting units and if he's left alone can cause terror checks in the middle of a gunline. Which is bad news for gunlines, except dwarves who don't care that much.
Good luck.

08-03-2008, 09:49
I like the idea of using 2 centigor units since I usually have great succes with them but the only problem is that they are among GW's most overpriced figures (and that is saying a lot)

and to be honest I have never understood why people like to use giants against missle heavy armies. It seems to me that misslefire is the giants biggest weakness. One shot from a cannon and some handgunners and he will be dead. Or maybe just 2 regiments of handgunners.

09-03-2008, 21:51
I've used the beastherd's ambush to great effect against Empire troops. Being static, there's nothing like two full sized units of beastmen tearing up behind them. However, you have to have a beastmen general to do this. Perhaps your problem is lack of armour? A unit or two of warriors with hand weapons and shields (maybe even the mark of khorne), could give you a very steady and hardy core. Distract the shooty units with your quicker units (such as furies, horsemen etc.), or screen them, and watch the body count rise when your two units make it into combat, relatively unscathed, ready to rip the handgunners a new one.

10-03-2008, 13:22
Yeah I am aware that I need a beast general to ambush but that really isn't much of a problem. I am just curious as to how effective it is since I am speculating that it might be to random to be worth it since they have to pass a LD test on a very low LD.

I really doubt that Chaos Warriors would help me much since 15 points each and M4 makes them among the worst units in the game imo.

10-03-2008, 16:49
I suggest big things like a giant because yes he very well may die. But that means your real fighting units won't be shot at. A giant is useful (a bit pricey points wise though) because the empire guy will have to shoot it. If he doesn't and goes after your main units then the giant will cause lots of trouble on shooting units and to the gunline as a whole. He may have enough firepower to kill it in one turn but all your units are fast so you should be trying to into combat asap, so losing some a decent amount of firepower on the giant gives you an open turn of moving. If you combine this with a screen on some of your units then you should be doing well.
I think the best option would be more fast units, and I am also a big fan on centigors.

10-03-2008, 17:04
Take Foe Renders in your herds and give your general the the Horn of the Great Hunt and you ambush with Ld8. Not too shabby at all. You may also think of trying to ambush a shaman with herd and use the staff of darkoth, the wolf hunts or unseen lurker if you have it to magic yourself into combat therefore negating that horrid stand and shoot. I usually try to overwhelm the gun line with targets so that at least some will get through.

10-03-2008, 20:23
Chaos warriors are one of the worst unit in the game??? Are you insane? Bearing in mind that they march 8" and you are facing, from what I gather, a static gunline (The empire player aint gonna move is he really?), they will cover the distance in two turns right (charge on the third)? Screen them like I said, and you won't need that extra movement, because the empire player will have targetted your weaker, quicker troops and will suddenly face a line of nearly invincible, super killers. Its what those warhounds of yours were made for. Chaos warriors are one of the best close combat units in the game! They are worth every point.

Ambush can be devestating, especially when they come from behind. I've never lost against my brother's empire playing with beasts. Take a beastlord or wargor with horn of the great hunt, and the ld aint that much of a problem. Handgunners would have to reform to shoot them and the cannon is next to useless against them. Just protect the general by putting him in a big unit, especially if you don't get the first turn. Without him you'd be stuffed.

10-03-2008, 20:34
One comment, and one comment only, since you have a Mortal General, Ambush is obviously out of the question, this leaves need for more quick units, you allready have Furies and Beastherds, however, with two units of Knights, your Centigors are using that fourth slot unfairly, you need something quicker in there.

Mounted Daemonettes are probably what you are looking for. A unit of 6 should do very well in helping you out, 5+ wards as well as the abillity to dish out a total of 3 attacks each is very nice for taking out things such as Cannons and Hellblasters