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View Full Version : Sniper Rifels - Viable for IG in 5th



Ork
24-04-2008, 23:59
Does anyone think sniper rifels will become a viable option for IG squads with the rise of 5th edition? Seems to me pinning and rending might be worth it, but low bs and one shot seems to render it useless.

Lord Raneus
25-04-2008, 00:02
Hehe...Low BS is irrelevant with snipers, unless they've changed the rules in 5th. The beauty of these weapons. I once saw three Guard Snipers take out an Eldar Wraithlord in one turn of shooting. Good times.

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2008, 00:03
Yes, in ratling squads, where they belong.

In normal squads? No thanks. A heavy bolter is the same points cost, and will be far more effective, and doesn't require a doctrine to get access to...

EDIT: And forget about special weapons squads. Both them and ratlings require a doctrine to access, and the ratlings get 6 sniper rifles in a 6 man squad, for the same price as 3 snipers in a 6 man special weapons squad.

Bloodknight
25-04-2008, 00:24
@raneus: unless they changed the final rules from the pdf, sniper rifles get rending, but hit on BS. Another reason for ratlings, because they are BS4, while the special weapon squad guys are only BS3.

Lord Raneus
25-04-2008, 02:10
:(

Ah, well. Can't say I like this, couldn't they have just upped the to-wound value on snipers? Hitting on 2's was what made them fun.
I shouldn't be complaining, my Scouts will hit on 3's, but still...

Oh, and by the way, never, under ANY circumstances, use Ratling models if you want to be taken seriously. Use normal IG snipers, and call them ratlings.

Bloodknight
25-04-2008, 02:13
I play Mordians. Can it get any sillier by including Ratlings? :p

I like the little blighters, although they don't see the field a lot - I always need that elite slot for veterans or stormtroopers. I for one think that normal guard snipers suck. The little abhumans are in the IG for a reason: they are naturally good shots (and they perfectly detract from the horrible blandness of Guardsmen, Guardsmen, Guardsmen, tank, tank tank, out....that befalls many IG armies by not taking the wackier Imperial stuff. Most current Guard armies are too naturalistic in approach, not befitting 40K IMHO, although I attribute that in part to the bad rules/pointscost the sillier stuff like techpriests, priests etc have).

Lord Raneus
25-04-2008, 02:14
I actually like how Mordians look, they'd be quite impressive all lined up with those fancy uniforms.

CommissarTanith
25-04-2008, 02:43
I want to try out my snipers with this new edition. I play Tanith, and we have quite a few snipers. I tended to not expect them to do anything up until now...

Kirasu
25-04-2008, 03:01
If anything snipers should hit *less* than normal weapons.. 2+ to hit never really made sense since you're shooting a highly scoped weapon at moving targets at carbine range and you're generally in a spot they know you're at!...

But anyway, ratlings are going to be crazy ..

Bloodknight
25-04-2008, 03:10
For me, the 4+ to wound (against Grot or Hive Tyrant), independence from ballistic skill and almost nonexistant penetration never made sense. One should think that a sniper fires a high powered bullet (at his BS, probably +1 for the scope) into the weakest spot of the enemy (ie wound on 2+ with AP2 - at reasonable points cost, of course), and not use some Flobert cartridge to hit the other guy in the foot ;). The sniper rifle is IMO the worst represented weapon in the game. As it is, the guys fire a poisoned airgun in the current system - and even with rending it's not what it should be.

The 2nd ed rendition of the needle rifle was not good at penetration either, but at least it wounded automatically.

Myst
25-04-2008, 06:57
For me, the 4+ to wound (against Grot or Hive Tyrant), independence from ballistic skill and almost nonexistant penetration never made sense. One should think that a sniper fires a high powered bullet (at his BS, probably +1 for the scope) into the weakest spot of the enemy (ie wound on 2+ with AP2 - at reasonable points cost, of course), and not use some Flobert cartridge to hit the other guy in the foot ;). The sniper rifle is IMO the worst represented weapon in the game. As it is, the guys fire a poisoned airgun in the current system - and even with rending it's not what it should be.

The 2nd ed rendition of the needle rifle was not good at penetration either, but at least it wounded automatically.

While I agree 100%, the problem is snipers will never properly be represented.

Snipers mostly target and kill officers and other high value enemy units. People would scream blue murder if their HQ characters were killed from a single round of sniper fire.

They tried it with the Vindicare in 2nd edition...And it wasn't pretty...

Epicenter
25-04-2008, 07:17
Nothing but Ratling snipers once 5th comes around. The next IG codex isn't likely to be published for months and months after 5th edition. With the changes, the non-Ratling snipers will take a huge hit to their chances to hit, making them worse than useless because of the points cost, at least until the next codex comes out or if they address the issue in a FAQ (unlikely or just to confirm that squad snipers are boned).


The sniper rifle is IMO the worst represented weapon in the game. As it is, the guys fire a poisoned airgun in the current system - and even with rending it's not what it should be.


It is but it isn't. There's a very large (false) mystique about sniper rifles that exist in the modern day, especially amongst people who've grown up playing FPS games. The truth of the matter is that most snipers do not lug around .50 caliber sniper rifles. While the bullets fired by sniper rifles usually are more effective than standard rifles, they're not the army scythes that boys (and a lot of men who should know better) will claim they are. The sniper's advantages are from shooting someone who doesn't know they're there and the sniper's accuracy.

However, since 40k has made most rifles popguns in favor of someone waving around an axe (which is already the total reverse of reality), sniper rifles should pretty much be popguns as well.

Pyriel
25-04-2008, 07:37
I, for one, welcome 5th ed. the only rule i don't like is the Killpoints one.
Even guard imho are not that screwed:
4th ed:all t3 armies play mech, so lasguns useless, so only heavy/spec weapons fire so infantry IG lists=nearly useless. IG tank lists=useless since all tanks die like cattle except skimmers in 4th(plus u lose all tank-to-tank fights with skimmers)

5th ed:cc based?cool, so IG infantry might be less viable.what the hell, wasn't that viable to begin with.Vehicles being now really hard to kill?say hello to grenadier stormtroopers lists!!!!the chimera needs 4 penetrating hits to destroy in new rules!!!what about the russ?lol front nearly indestructible(side it with chimeras and loool)

s4 defensive weapons change?russ unaffected(either move and hit with your ordnance that is also improved 5th ed, or stay and shoot all)chimera if u use one multilaser/heavy flamer is unaffected(flamer will would hit only close-up anyway)rest weapons is s4-. hellhound? dude, just use your inferno cannon! lots of cover with new rules?flaming chimeras and hellhounds ftw.
only troops scoring?fine, grenadiers ftw.

only really bad thing for IG(if they do not strictly play gunline) is the killpoints thing, since heavy weapons squads will cost 3 killpoints(commissars, on the other hand, will NOT: advisors are attached to a unit, not a unit themselves)

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2008, 09:29
Nothing but Ratling snipers once 5th comes around. The next IG codex isn't likely to be published for months and months after 5th edition. With the changes, the non-Ratling snipers will take a huge hit to their chances to hit, making them worse than useless because of the points cost, at least until the next codex comes out or if they address the issue in a FAQ (unlikely or just to confirm that squad snipers are boned).



It is but it isn't. There's a very large (false) mystique about sniper rifles that exist in the modern day, especially amongst people who've grown up playing FPS games. The truth of the matter is that most snipers do not lug around .50 caliber sniper rifles. While the bullets fired by sniper rifles usually are more effective than standard rifles, they're not the army scythes that boys (and a lot of men who should know better) will claim they are. The sniper's advantages are from shooting someone who doesn't know they're there and the sniper's accuracy.

However, since 40k has made most rifles popguns in favor of someone waving around an axe (which is already the total reverse of reality), sniper rifles should pretty much be popguns as well.

True. Most modern military snipers use 7.62mm or similar rounds, whilst your normal infantry are using 5.56mm. If you're firing fewer rounds, you can carry heavier ammo.
Although not a .50 calibre, 7.62s will still defeat most body armour reasonably reliably, and take the target down.

In 40K terms, sniper rifles should hit on a 2+, have AP3- sniper is able to pick shot fairly carefully, and avoid all but the very best armour.

As for strength S4, may always wound on 5+

HiveFleetEzekial
25-04-2008, 09:59
Yes, in ratling squads, where they belong.

In normal squads? No thanks. A heavy bolter is the same points cost, and will be far more effective, and doesn't require a doctrine to get access to...

EDIT: And forget about special weapons squads. Both them and ratlings require a doctrine to access, and the ratlings get 6 sniper rifles in a 6 man squad, for the same price as 3 snipers in a 6 man special weapons squad.


Only if you opt to use doctrines in the first place. Doctrines aren't manditory, they're entirely optional. You can still use these things all you like, per any restrictions in their own army list entries. You're only further limited if you decide to use doctrines.

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2008, 10:42
Only if you opt to use doctrines in the first place. Doctrines aren't manditory, they're entirely optional. You can still use these things all you like, per any restrictions in their own army list entries. You're only further limited if you decide to use doctrines.

Doctrines are necessary to get Sniper rifles into your normal squads, they only get the option via the Light infantry doctrine....

HiveFleetEzekial
25-04-2008, 10:57
By Light Infantry, for regular troop platoons, yes. But you only mentioned "Special Weapon Squads" and "Ratlings", which do not require doctrines to get.

Mandragola
25-04-2008, 12:56
Well sure, but everyone takes doctrines for (at least) the cool free stuff like close order drill and drop troops. Iron discipline is near-mandatory as well.

Arguably, that's the problem with doctrines. The positives of taking them far outweigh the negatives.

Bloodknight
25-04-2008, 13:04
Yes, ID is the uberdoctrine. Cheap and makes your army double as durable. So is drop troops which makes your army semimobile.
The stuff you get restricted on by taking doctrines is largely undesirable ruleswise as is - which is why I want a new codex ;).

Grey Seer Skretch
25-04-2008, 13:13
I, for one, welcome 5th ed. the only rule i don't like is the Killpoints one.
Even guard imho are not that screwed:
4th ed:all t3 armies play mech, so lasguns useless, so only heavy/spec weapons fire so infantry IG lists=nearly useless. IG tank lists=useless since all tanks die like cattle except skimmers in 4th(plus u lose all tank-to-tank fights with skimmers)

5th ed:cc based?cool, so IG infantry might be less viable.what the hell, wasn't that viable to begin with.Vehicles being now really hard to kill?say hello to grenadier stormtroopers lists!!!!the chimera needs 4 penetrating hits to destroy in new rules!!!what about the russ?lol front nearly indestructible(side it with chimeras and loool)

s4 defensive weapons change?russ unaffected(either move and hit with your ordnance that is also improved 5th ed, or stay and shoot all)chimera if u use one multilaser/heavy flamer is unaffected(flamer will would hit only close-up anyway)rest weapons is s4-. hellhound? dude, just use your inferno cannon! lots of cover with new rules?flaming chimeras and hellhounds ftw.
only troops scoring?fine, grenadiers ftw.

only really bad thing for IG(if they do not strictly play gunline) is the killpoints thing, since heavy weapons squads will cost 3 killpoints(commissars, on the other hand, will NOT: advisors are attached to a unit, not a unit themselves)


Sweet jeebus, what language are you using...? Is this speaking in tongues? Is that was this is? I mean it man, I'll call a ******* exorcist, and I don't mean the jolly-pipe-organ-strapped-to-a-perfectly-good-tank type either! Seriously though, I think possibly your making a lot of rather generalised assumptions here, I know a few people with mostly infantry guard armies (me for one, the guy I played last night for another) who manage to make them work quite happily and have a lot of fun gaming. And I don't think everyone with a toughness 3 army uses fully mechanised lists at all, some do some don't. I've seen massed lasgun fire achieve plenty tbh. I feel you should, perhaps, chill a little and look to the fluffy side...?

mchmr6677
25-04-2008, 13:44
The buff to sniper rifles for guard is not as good as it is for eldar pathfinders, but it will help. It all depends on how much the unit costs in points. As has been pointed out on so many posts, far too many armies have high leadership or completely fearless units in abundence. That makes pinning a crapshoot. The rending power being added is the big buff, but again as you said, you only get one shot each.

colmarekblack
25-04-2008, 20:44
Rending on sniper rifles plus there +1 to cover saves will make Ratlings rightly feared and almost impossible to budge without assault or template weapons. Hell it makes my purchase of 10 of them worth it.

sjwilliamsii
27-04-2008, 03:32
By Light Infantry, for regular troop platoons, yes. But you only mentioned "Special Weapon Squads" and "Ratlings", which do not require doctrines to get.

Actually they are both restricted units and require the use of a doctrine. See page 55 of the Codex: Imperial Guard.

So the use of sniper rifles is dependant upon the use of doctrines.

I almost always take a squad of Rattlings and park them in a nice high spot with good over watch. I then focus their shots on any unattached independent characters first. That is likely to change with 5th. I am hoping that the beta PDF rules get [Censored by the Inquisition] canned and that the real 5th is quite different. Otherwise there will be no need to field Catachans or Jungle fighter at all due to the Area Terrain/LOS rules.

I recently played a 4 player game CSM and Orks vs. SM and IG 1500pts each and we used the PDF. The dOrks decimated! My IG guys couldn't fire because the dOrks were always locked in CC or there were units blocking LOS. It wasn't pretty I can assure you.

Bloodknight
27-04-2008, 03:43
If I read that correctly, 5th edition does not have target priority tests anymore - that makes ratlings even better (because atm they are very likely to fail these unless an officer is babysitting them, which kind of defeats the usefulness of their infiltrate ability).

leo_neil316
28-04-2008, 12:40
sjwilliamsii you might need to read that page again. Nothing in the codex -starts out as- restricted.

-If- you choose to use doctrines the downside is that many specialist choices become restricted and you can only take them by buying them back.

If you aren't using doctrines you may take (for example) techpriests, conscripts, ratlings, ogryns, priests, psykers, rough riders, specialist weapons teams, heavy weapons platoons all in one army.

It would be the only real reason to not use doctrines if all those things were worth taking at once.

Bunnahabhain
28-04-2008, 12:49
sjwilliamsii you might need to read that page again. Nothing in the codex -starts out as- restricted.

-If- you choose to use doctrines the downside is that many specialist choices become restricted and you can only take them by buying them back.

If you aren't using doctrines you may take (for example) techpriests, conscripts, ratlings, ogryns, priests, psykers, rough riders, specialist weapons teams, heavy weapons platoons all in one army.

It would be the only real reason to not use doctrines if all those things were worth taking at once.

Or at all, for quite a few of the restricted troops. I'm trying to recall the last tech preist, psyker or preist I saw outside of a fully fluffy and uncompetitive army, or a sensible army that could make use of more that a few of the actually useful types at once.

Bloodknight
28-04-2008, 13:29
I agree to Bunnahabhain's post.
Most restricted units are not worth a doctrine point, and especially the advisors, Ogryns and the techpriest are so lame that one does not want them anyway. Heavy weapon platoons are nice, but that slot can be filled cheaper with ordnance which has the added benefit of being able to move and fire, which does a lot to remedy that they have to deploy first unless you take the light infantry doctrine (which you obviously cannot do in the basic list).
That leaves ratlings, cavalry and conscripts as the desirable ones.
The inclusion of officers with iron discipline alone makes an IG army so much better that playing the standard list is an equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot as a player of a generally weak book.

Lord Cook
28-04-2008, 17:32
Agreed on all counts. The Imperial Guard codex as it stands is (by and large) very weak, and it's only through the use of doctrines and years and years of player experience that we paper over the cracks and approximate something approaching a competitive army. The inclusion of the Restricted Troops rule was one of those mistakes that was probably made in good faith, but failed to realise that it didn't affect anyone competitively, only serving to prevent a few fluffy builds that people wanted to use because they were cool. For an army already a little thin on the ground with respect to 40k wackiness, restricted troops just stopped people from using what we did have, like sanctioned psykers and enginseers. Of course it didn't help that almost all of these units were rubbish anyway.

x-esiv-4c
28-04-2008, 17:37
Ratlings make out like bandits in 5th edition.
cool cover save bonus, new sniper rifle rules, cool new baseball caps :)

cuda1179
28-04-2008, 19:14
How about the Vindicare assassin? When it comes to 5th edition it is all ups and no downs for him. With a BS of 5 he is still hitting on 2's. He can pick out anyone he wants, gets rending, gets AP 2, and he still has a crapload of special ammunition. I think he will finally be worth his points.

Lord Cook
28-04-2008, 23:23
How about the Vindicare assassin? When it comes to 5th edition it is all ups and no downs for him. With a BS of 5 he is still hitting on 2's. He can pick out anyone he wants, gets rending, gets AP 2, and he still has a crapload of special ammunition. I think he will finally be worth his points.

But rending is pointless for him, because he already has Ap2, and all rending does in V5 is count as Ap2 on a to-wound roll of 6. True he can still hit on a 2+, which is nice, but it doesn't solve the problem of only having 1 shot that is 50/50 to wound, and only having 1 decent special bullet* and 1 mediocre one**. In effect he's immune to the new changes in V5 (they don't affect him at all), but considering the buff snipers are getting in general, the Vindicare has actually gotten even worse in comparison to normal snipers.


*Wound on a 2+
**Ignores invulnerable saves

Bloodknight
28-04-2008, 23:33
Signed.
He does not benefit. And with the shrinking number of two wound characters in the new codices his 3rd bullet is pretty useless, too. The only thing I still see him being good at is picking out icon bearers and aspiring sorcerers. But overall, his gun wounding on 4+ usually is a huge letdown for his points, especially since you have to take an Inquisitor lord with retinue to field one.

Bunnahabhain
29-04-2008, 01:31
The obvious fix for the Vindicare is to delete the' only one of each' bit from his special ammo section. If every shot hits and wounds on 2s, then he would live up to his points cost and background rather better.

blood angel
29-04-2008, 08:02
I always take ratlings to deal with deamon princes. It will be nice for them to be useful against 'normal' units now.

MegaPope
29-04-2008, 08:53
The obvious fix for the Vindicare is to delete the' only one of each' bit from his special ammo section.

The Vindicare rules are one of those direct ports from 2ed where nobody stopped and THOUGHT for a moment about what the implications would be. (there are quite a lot of situations like this even now;))

Those three bullets were very nice when a) the Vindi could fire twice if stationary, b) there were far fewer characters around and c) you could field him without an Inq roadshow.

I like the sniper rifle option available to the Vraksian Renegades in IA5 (arguably the better of the two armies in that book ruleswise) - SRs are a weapon option for veteran squad leaders, essentially an extra special weapon slot for a squad that's camping with a heavy team already. You don't use it as a strategy, but the pinning test is a bonus.

(Of course, they also get demo-charges as squad leader weapon options, which is even better!:D)

Lord Cook, you're bang on as to why the IG codex works - it's us, the players, who have gotten used to fighting against our own army list as well as the enemy. Everything in that codex was terrribly overcosted and underpowered or underused even when it came out. Matters will only get even worse for now. I posit that IG are going to be the new Orks (3ed-4ed Orks that is, where they don't get a new codex for ages because no-one can come up with any new ideas for them). Why is it that the weakest army overall operates under the most restrictions over what units and upgrades they can and can't use at the same time?

Do the Guard have a 'voice' in the current design team? If not, we may well be in trouble...