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View Full Version : Black templars new codex and rhino rush ?



joebloggs1987
21-04-2005, 06:54
Latest rumour news i heared, black templars are getting the rhino rush back.
Is this true?
With all the new things that a vanilla army can have, like 6 dev squads or 6 dreads, they were going to give the black templars back the rhino rush to even things out.

Has anyone else heared similar things?
Is this gonna happen, or is it just gossip?

Ass Goblin
21-04-2005, 07:10
Sounds like gossip to me. Giving back the Rhino Rush is a bad idea...a very bad idea.

joebloggs1987
21-04-2005, 07:14
Thats what i thought aswell, but then when you think about it, all those sweet traits that vanilla marines now have, the black templars dont get any.

They have to get something that is going to make them worth collecting.
I thought when i heared about the rhino rush, it would make sense.

Brunificus
21-04-2005, 07:30
No god, NOOOOOOOOOOOO, they promised no more rhino rush.

I don't think so, It goes against everything they've done so far with 4th ed. I'm sure they will get some funky new stuff, just not that.

Ouroboros
21-04-2005, 07:31
Every indication I've ever read had the GW dev team hating the Rhino rush. I'd be very surprised if it came back after they went to such lengths to ensure its total demise.

joebloggs1987
21-04-2005, 08:12
Whatever they bring in for the templars, its gotta beat the traits.
Otherwise the whole point of releasing the codex is going to be useless.
People will not want to collect them if the vanilla marines are better.
It would just mean that games workshop have wasted their time and money.

But i cant see that happening, so we all gotta cross our fingers, grit our teeth, and wait till we turn that cover on the brand new codex for the first time.

Gregorus
21-04-2005, 08:13
why would they be nerfing the RR, only to give it back, and to somebody, who wil be exploiting it the most?

Nah, wothless gossip

Asher
21-04-2005, 08:58
Whatever they bring in for the templars, its gotta beat the traits.
Otherwise the whole point of releasing the codex is going to be useless.
People will not want to collect them if the vanilla marines are better.
It would just mean that games workshop have wasted their time and money.


Well...the GW staff would really be at the end of their creativity, if their only way to make Templars popular is to give them Rhino Rush back. So the players...one really needs to be a no-brainer to be tempted by something like rhino rush.
But I also disagree with you on the point of traits. Of course the Templars will get something special (their vows for example) but even if not, the character of the army alone will make them special and collectable.
Look at he DA for example. They are a codex army in most respects, with overcosted Terminators and Bikes. Gamewise there is no advantage to take them, but they look cool, are cool and have nice fluff. And a lot of people play them.

grizzly ruin
21-04-2005, 09:00
Whatever they bring in for the templars, its gotta beat the traits.
Otherwise the whole point of releasing the codex is going to be useless.
People will not want to collect them if the vanilla marines are better.
It would just mean that games workshop have wasted their time and money.

But i cant see that happening, so we all gotta cross our fingers, grit our teeth, and wait till we turn that cover on the brand new codex for the first time.

Well I think the whole point is that standard codex marines should be "better".

Similar to CSMs, the idea is that the basic list will always be the most versatile and in a way "the best".

Armies that deviate will have areas they are particularly specialized and good at, and in that respect they will be "better" than the standard list.

However the further they deviate, the more disadvantaged they should become in other areas.

Obviously nothing will ever be perfect, but still I hope it goes this way.


I was never a fan of:

"We are the Angriest marines, so we are super in combat! And we are in like a total frenzy and we drink blood!! But we don't worship Khorne!"

"Oh yeah?!! Well we are the CRUSADINGEST!!111! marines, so we don't retreat we fall fowards! and have super-DUPER powers to distroy all evil!"


:rolleyes:


No thanks.
:D

Brunificus
21-04-2005, 09:22
Yeah forgot all about that, Emperor's Chaps, Vows, Fall forwards, what more do Templar players want.

Odin
21-04-2005, 09:53
They have to get something that is going to make them worth collecting.

No, they need to take stuff away from them so they're not so overpowered.

Frankly, I think they should never have made Black Templars a major Chapter. There was already a crusading warrior-monk chapter (Dark Angels), so I didn't understand why they had to dilute the ideas by splitting them between two chapters. Some of the ideas used in Black Templars could have instead been used to make Dark Angels a bit more interesting (rather than just bog-standard marines with expensive bikes and termies).

But then I am a Dark Angels player, so perhaps I'm a bit biased.

boogle
21-04-2005, 10:46
more hidden power fists/wpns than your average marine army

Killgore
21-04-2005, 11:05
Ever considered that GW's most best selling the tank- The Rhino might not be shifting so many units now?


me thinks the sales of Rhinos have gone right down,


but i don't think gw will bring the rhino rush back (and if they do it would be the final nail in the coffin of Game balance- selling stuff)

Rabid Bunny 666
21-04-2005, 11:22
i'd like to see more vows, so they are more tactically flexible

oh, and veteran seregants :D

charlie_c67
21-04-2005, 11:22
See that's an issue I have. Too much emphasis is placed on making a winner beats all army rather than a fluff based one. Takes some of the fun away from it all.

Incidently, rhinos aren't just used as rhinos remember.

boogle
21-04-2005, 11:30
then if it wasn't seeling why did they put the Razorback/Combat Squad out for release, why not sell the Tactical squad/Rhino for 25, that way they would both sell by the bucketload (the same can be said for the new Battleforce, i'm expecting the Rhino to be absent from the Megaforce when it is released as well)

Rabid Bunny 666
21-04-2005, 11:44
in the 50 box, you get a razorback, which is more useful IMHO

mattjgilbert
21-04-2005, 12:03
in the 50 box, you get a razorback, which is more useful IMHO

You buy a RB and so long as you don't glue the turret on, you also get a Rhino. I only bother to buy RBs.

Back on topic (ish), I guess codices like the Black Templars going to be the slim versions we saw in 3rd Ed which reference the main "parent" one. I cannot imagine it's going to be a full blown codex.

Sai-Lauren
21-04-2005, 12:12
Allegedly the variant codices are all stand alone from now on.


Incidently, rhinos aren't just used as rhinos remember
Nor are they all bought by marine players.

I wouldn't be surprised if Crusaders became transport options for the Templars (making a crusader rush army) - maybe even as a new vow (maybe call it something like "Bring judgement to the heretic, wherever they may hide"), but I would doubt rhino rush would ever come back - the land raider assault ramp is the one exception to the no assaulting from vehicles rule, no one, except maybe Forge World (as they're effectively self-limiting through prices and availability) should ever be allowed to break that rule.

Hercco
21-04-2005, 12:52
I wouldn't be surprised if Crusaders became transport options for the Templars (making a crusader rush army) - maybe even as a new vow (maybe call it something like "Bring judgement to the heretic, wherever they may hide"), but I would doubt rhino rush would ever come back - the land raider assault ramp is the one exception to the no assaulting from vehicles rule, no one, except maybe Forge World (as they're effectively self-limiting through prices and availability) should ever be allowed to break that rule.

Now this makes sense. They're really not that stupid to bring back the Rhino Rush, they'd be alienating more players than they'd be gaining.
Black Templars are assault oriented, Land Raiders are the only way to assault from an enclosed vehicle and LR Crusader is a Black Templar thing.

So larger than 10 man squads with close combat weapons (and few hidden power fists...) and the option of taking Crusader as a transport.

charlie_c67
21-04-2005, 12:53
Yup, minidexes are thankfully, consigned to history as far as new dexes are concerned. That's been confirmed by several people.

Lion El Jason
21-04-2005, 12:54
Yeah, that would be best...Also crusaders are self limiting as you have to be at least some part insane to attempt to build a second set of those hurricane bolter assemblies!

dante256
21-04-2005, 13:03
the loss of the emporer's champion to normal codex chapters would probably indicate it to be only black templars, that on its own is a serious plus point

boogle
21-04-2005, 13:41
maybe they'll have a different Command Squad (the EC may replace the Company Champion)

mattjgilbert
21-04-2005, 13:55
They could always drive their Rhinos backwards and bundle out the "front" to try to simulate the assault ramp :p :p

The Machine GoD
21-04-2005, 15:29
Id like to remind you all black templar have are vows and the emps champion. Its a very hard army to play currently. Ive been playing it for years. Without the ability to get across the board quickly into cc the army is really hurting. Im actually in the process to building a 2nd assault squad just cause they are way better then normal squads.

All blacktemplar get is a power fist on a NORMAL guy. Not even a vet and its only 1 guy. Thats a big 2 attacks a turn.

The army is in desperate need of something to help it in game. I can usually do ok in close combat but I have trouble getting there.

Sai-Lauren
21-04-2005, 16:05
I make sense? When did that happen :p


Yeah, that would be best...Also crusaders are self limiting as you have to be at least some part insane to attempt to build a second set of those hurricane bolter assemblies!

Amen, one of the worst multi-part sets in GW's long history of "did they really try putting these (insert expletive(s) of choice here) things together themselves?", although you could probably build some kind of assembly support scaffold rig if you were doing more than one.

Killgore
21-04-2005, 16:31
lol I got a LR Crusader as part of a army deal but it came without any asembaly instructions, it took me a lil while to figure out how to put the Bolters together, but once I had the first one done the 2nd was stupidly easy.

If i ever was to get another LR Crusader (which I highly doubt, as I also have a normal Land Raider) I'd have no problems puttin together the bolters




I think it would be a brilliant rule to allow BT to take LR C's as a transport option, very fluffy as well because they designed it.

Str10_hurts
21-04-2005, 16:39
And salamanders? should they be better? lots of people play them for fluff reasons only.

And now a day's people are acctualy using assault marines wich is a good thing. and so what, you still got droppods. your army will still make it to the otherside.

Rino rush must stay dead.

Hell's Angel
21-04-2005, 17:52
"Oh yeah?!! Well we are the CRUSADINGEST!!111! marines, so we don't retreat we fall fowards! and have super-DUPER powers to distroy all evil!"
:D

Its good that 2 years later a vague reference to that poor little bastards, 'Ninga Marines' still gets mentioned...
LMFAO :D

Hell's Angel
21-04-2005, 19:15
Call me stupid, but they already 'are' the transport option for BT. They can take 3 crusaders (or is it 4 w/lord attached?) These babies still function like the regular rhino rush used too... So whats the problem?

Hercco
21-04-2005, 20:37
Call me stupid, but they already 'are' the transport option for BT. They can take 3 crusaders (or is it 4 w/lord attached?) These babies still function like the regular rhino rush used too... So whats the problem?
Only that it takes all your heavy support choices.

Grumnir
21-04-2005, 20:37
Call me stupid,

Yeah not the brightest start to a triple post ;)

On Topic: my group has found that BT are still very playable, though their comparitive benefit compared to other marines has been reduced --> which may be the reason for some of the complaints, as they previously had the aura of having a lot of freebies without suffering too much for them.

Hell's Angel
21-04-2005, 20:54
Sorry, (apparently there are connectivity problems?) for the 'triple post.' Also all the heavy choices? So what is your point? Assaulting is what they do, so if you want a rush atatck... Do it! Take dreadnaughts w/lascannons if you need more heavy weapons.

Wraith
21-04-2005, 20:59
Only that it takes all your heavy support choices.

So you want armour 14 all round assault transport vehicles which act like the rhino rush of old AND further heavy support choices? Wow...

Str10_hurts
21-04-2005, 21:17
Its good that 2 years later a vague reference to that poor little bastards, 'Ninga Marines' still gets mentioned...
LMFAO :D

ehh...werent that the Stealth marienes?

Wonderdog
21-04-2005, 21:29
Arent all the BT veterens formed into "sword squads" or something? (I could be talking crap here) Why not a do a veteren squad as an elites choice, all with two cc weapons\cc&pistol and a combat shield, and the option of a couple of power swords instead of special/heavy weapons or something? That would be something a bit different...

The Rhino rush could also be something that you could give only to a squad of neophytes led by an emperors champion, maybe to display thier eagerness to rush into combat (balanced by thier lowered 4+ save once they get there?). Maybe any squad joined by the emperors champion could gain some kind of "eager to charge out of vehicles" type zeal... that would limit rhino rushing to a single squad per army...

I think that these are the kinds of things we'll see in the forthcoming chapter specific codexes: A couple of unique squad types (like the UM 'nid hunters, honour guard, BA death company, BT sword squads etc etc.), some unique character types who affect your normal squads in some way (death company chaplains vs normal chaplians, interogator chaplians vs normal chaplains, emperors champion vs company champions etc), and a batch of nice (but not overpowerful) army wide special rules/traits/limitations , e.g. BA furios charge etc etc.

#Wonderdog

Bruen
21-04-2005, 21:33
They have to get something that is going to make them worth collecting.
I thought when i heared about the rhino rush, it would make sense.

How sad that the only reason that you can think of for collecting BT is that you think they are the most powerful.

Hell's Angel
21-04-2005, 22:32
Bruen.... ouch.

Oh yeah the Stealth Marines! I wonder why I got that mixed up... Did he want to model them as ningas? Also, you know his idea of orbital bombardment DID come to fruition in the Daemon Hunter Codex (well he wanted to hit every unit on the table and in reserves.) Too bad that post was lost. New people will never know the joy that comes with "we distroy all evil" and the Stealth Marines.

Just Tony
21-04-2005, 23:27
So you want armour 14 all round assault transport vehicles which act like the rhino rush of old AND further heavy support choices? Wow...

Hilarious, man. I coughed up my drink when I read that. The fact that some people see nothing wrong with that line if thinking makes it even funnier.

I think this pretty much epitomizes why they did 4th edition in the first place. The ridiculousness of what extent some people will go in the hopes of that all winning combo defy logic. Remember when BA's could get into cc in the first turn? Yeah, I want to get back into that. Third edition was designed to bring back the balance that was supposed to be "understood" in second edition, but was never exercised, not unlike the Core, Special, Rare selections for Fantasy. In third, players found SEVERAL ways to powergame without abusing the balance system. Now, it seems that the game is swinging more towards nipping that sort of thing in the bud. In short, the only suggestion I have to the players who feel this need is this:

If you can't win with ginchy rules loops anymore, try studying combat tactics.

Tony

Stormire
22-04-2005, 00:53
*whines* But Studying Combat Tactics takes time and effort!

As a BT player, I don't want or need the rhino rush back. I personally think that the Drop Pods are an excellent way of dropping your squads to where they need to be.

I think that IF you needed to do anything to the templar transport options, easiest and most acceptable would be dropping the points of assault marines or maybe even giving the templar an 'extra armor rhino' with like, 1 extra armor all around might be all they need.

But like i said, i'm not sure that they even need to tweak the transport options.

On a digression:
My personal favorite Tactic is to drop two dreads in to take out enemy trouble spots. Its true in game terms i'm sending thousands of years old dreads in do or die situations, but with the drop pod covering their rear armor, a HF, and an assault cannon, it actually works out really well. Can rip a squad to shreads or take out tanks, giving my infantry squads some time to breath.

CassiusDraconis
22-04-2005, 02:45
They could always drive their Rhinos backwards and bundle out the "front" to try to simulate the assault ramp :p :p

The beauty of that is that Ork Armies will think they are leaving and thus be vulnerable to counter attack LOL

twisted_mentat
22-04-2005, 03:34
I was told about a guy who VDRed rhinos to have assult ramps in the front, though the cost in the VDRs he made was...5 points...uh ya...you can't just make up points values for VDRs like that...

I would like to see more vows, that have diffearnt effects...

but i agree, bringing back the rhino russ would probably alienate the BT players more than they were in 3rd ed...

Sai-Lauren
22-04-2005, 08:22
So you want armour 14 all round assault transport vehicles which act like the rhino rush of old AND further heavy support choices? Wow...

Hilarious, man. I coughed up my drink when I read that. The fact that some people see nothing wrong with that line if thinking makes it even funnier.

Well, a) the crusaders are 250 points each.
b) That's why I suggested it as a vow, that way you can't get any of the other optional enhancements BT are going to get - which could make the difference.

and
c) No one complains that Deathwing get raiders as transports and still have access to their heavy slots. Ok, they do need all the help they can get, but still... ;)

pullsyjr
22-04-2005, 11:20
...they do need all the help they can get...

And that there is the answer - why do BTs need more help? They've got all the options of other chapters, PLUS they get vows, PLUS they've got the Emps Champ, PLUS they have squads up to 15 large. Oh yeah - don't forget they fall forward when they fail a Morale test.

I'm sure there's more.

Wraith
22-04-2005, 11:27
...they do need all the help they can get...

And that there is the answer...

Exactly. :)

Inquisitor Engel
22-04-2005, 16:59
Just so you all know - Black Templars are not getting the Rhino Rush back.

Asher
22-04-2005, 17:05
Thanks for clearin up Engel...but where is Killjoy when you need him most?

Inquisitor Engel
22-04-2005, 19:02
but where is Killjoy when you need him most?
Killjoy no longer works for GW, and hasn't for nearly six months now.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
22-04-2005, 19:11
Just so you all know - Black Templars are not getting the Rhino Rush back.

Wow, really?

Next thing you will be telling us the Pope is Catholic, bears poo in the woods and the moon isn't made out of cheese ;)

Rob

Inquisitor Engel
22-04-2005, 19:15
Wow, really?

Next thing you will be telling us the Pope is Catholic, bears poo in the woods and the moon isn't made out of cheese ;)

Rob
Mine is from the horse's mouth. So people can go ahead and stop arguing about it. :p

Bruen
22-04-2005, 20:54
Mine is from the horse's mouth.

How did you learn to speak horse anyway?

t-tauri
22-04-2005, 20:58
You heard it here first-BT codex designed by horse.

I think the next time we see something like a rhino rush will be when Eldar get it for the Wave Serpent.

Inquisitor Engel
22-04-2005, 21:47
You heard it here first-BT codex designed by horse.
Dammit that's not what I said! :p I don't actually know who's working on it, I assume it's a large portion of the design team, as they need a substantial overhaul.

I enquired if this rumour was true and got "Absolutely not." So I passed it on.


think the next time we see something like a rhino rush will be when Eldar get it for the Wave Serpent.
As much as I would like to see that, I don't think we will. Personally am easy way to circumvent giving them tons of special rules and circumstances would be to give the Eldar the ability to Fleet of Foot into combat. That seems to be a long ways off anyway.

Aurelien
23-04-2005, 09:22
Fleet of Foot into combat? Can't they do that already?

twisted_mentat
24-04-2005, 21:09
Fleet of Foot into combat? Can't they do that already?

No, you fleet of foot in the shooting phase. You can only assult in the assult phase.


if you or someone else has been doing this *rolls up a white dwarf* bad Gamer! Bad!
*whap*

Aurelien
24-04-2005, 21:30
There is a difference between fleet of footing into combat, and fleet of footing in the Combat Phase.

And since that would be an exception to the entire existing fleet mechanic, I find it unlikely.

Inquisitor Engel
24-04-2005, 23:42
And since that would be an exception to the entire existing fleet mechanic, I find it unlikely.
No, it, doesn't. You make a Fleet of Foot move during the Shooting Phase as normal, allowing Eldar to move into Base-to-base contact with another unit, counting that as a charge.

Doesn't circumvent any rule, simply adds to it for the case of Eldar. Land Raiders do pretty much the same thing, except they allow an Assault move, as their ramps are at the front, unlike every other vehicle in 40k. (With the exception of the Monolith)

Giving Eldar tanks the 'Assault Ramp' special rule doesn't make sense, and would counter the book.

Aurelien
24-04-2005, 23:56
Ahhh, now I understand.

Still, it would suck if you roll a one.

Hmm, So that would be an exception to the "Can't move within an inch of any enemy except in the assualt phase." thing.

Inquisitor Engel
25-04-2005, 05:18
Hmm, So that would be an exception to the "Can't move within an inch of any enemy except in the assualt phase." thing.
Precisely.

Lion El Jason
25-04-2005, 08:28
But...eldar simply dont need that...

They have probably the best all round vehicle in the game: The nigh-unkillable falcon that can usually deploy troops into assault range. Since the falcon is not going to get killed the troops can get out before it moves and move and FoF and assault as normal.

Sword Bretheren: Terminator Command Squads with power sword and storm shield is what I understood.

Sai-Lauren
25-04-2005, 08:54
And that there is the answer - why do BTs need more help? They've got all the options of other chapters, PLUS they get vows, PLUS they've got the Emps Champ, PLUS they have squads up to 15 large. Oh yeah - don't forget they fall forward when they fail a Morale test.

I'm sure there's more.
Pullsyjr and Wraith,

Please go back and read what I actually said, I said Deathwing (and not Templars) need all the help they can get, as I'm sure DW players will agree.

Wraith
25-04-2005, 08:55
Pullsyjr and Wraith,

Please go back and read what I actually said, I said Deathwing (and not Templars) need all the help they can get, as I'm sure DW players will agree.

I also meant Deathwing needed all the help they could get -- certainly not Black Templars.