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IJW
29-05-2008, 12:39
Just some random ponderings on the implications for Orks...

All units getting counter-attack moves and lack of killzones benefits the big mobs quite a lot, on the other hand the new combat resolution could force quite a lot of extra saves if they do lose.

No consolidation into new units is both a positive and a negative.

Meganobs get better by gaining bonus attacks on the charge, and everyone else losing their two-weapon bonus attack with Powerfists/klaws.

In smaller units it's now worth giving the Nob 'eavy armour as they're likely to die more quickly with the new wound allocation.

'Deffkopta deff of Doom from your rear lines!' :)

Master Jeridian
29-05-2008, 12:48
The Ork Codex looks like it was written to wipe the floor in 5th Ed.

5th Ed greatly benefits vast, lightly armed infantry hordes (since they move faster, and get better Cover, even from each other).

5th Ed greatly benefits armies that have masses of Troops, especially large numbered squads (kill 30 Orks to stop them scoring).

Conversely, it weakens all the mech armies, and small 'elite' armies.


So, yeah, Orks are laughing in 5th Ed.

Dribble Joy
29-05-2008, 13:03
True LoS - nowhere for your trukks or your stormboys to hide.

Number of wounds a fearless unit looses a combat by = number of armour saves.

Bolter them up, charge with something vaguely assaulty and watch them crumble.

Dosadi
29-05-2008, 13:16
It's really a double edged sword for Orks in 5th.. While the pile in move ensures that all our boys get to attack if they live, the new combat resolution can inflict added armour saves on us if we loose big. Fearless can really hurt units with low armour saves, but what's a few extra dead boyz when you unit started at 30?

As for the Nob, the enemy still needs to inflict hits in excess of our unit size for the Nob to have to take armour saves as we can assign the hits to the boyz. But I agree that giving the Nob 'eavy armour is a must now as that single Nob can hold an objective as troops are scoring to the last man in 5th.

So really there is an incentive to field units of 30 boys because most enemy units will never be able to inflict that many hits in shooting.


Dosadi

Souchan
29-05-2008, 13:28
True LoS - nowhere for your trukks or your stormboys to hide.

Number of wounds a fearless unit looses a combat by = number of armour saves.

Bolter them up, charge with something vaguely assaulty and watch them crumble.

Did that change then, last I heard it was determined by being outnumbered and losing, but was limited by the lowest of either.

Did that get thrown out?

Mojaco
29-05-2008, 13:43
+ Cover saves from each other, like 3pt models
+ Great core of troops that can hold objectives
+ Dirt cheap vehicles have only gotten better
+ All-specialist squads do not suffer from wound alocation rules
+ Run

- Killpoints reward lame super-mobs tactic instead of varied army lists
- No real cover to hide specialists behind
- Enemy blast templates will always hit either something or loads.

There's probably more. I think especially blast templates are going to hurt...

Mars
29-05-2008, 14:09
+ Nobz with PK in large mobs are untouchable and will still butcher anything they hit.
+ Pretty much all cover now gives a 4+ save, great for Loota's.

The introduction of Run does make the choice between Slugga and Shoota Boyz more balanced.
Kommando's have become a lot more useful, even without special character.
The same goes for Death Kopta's, these'll be dead hard.

My Tau however will be very happy with 5th Edition: Orks could already fleet most of the time, they could already charge from the rear, and now my blast weapons and Markerlights will be even more useful. And a charge from 30+ Kroot will wipe a full Mob on the charge :evilgrin:.

And no more consolidation is huge, no more fast units ripping through my entire army, now I'll always get to shoot them up a bit first.

Danny Internet
29-05-2008, 14:47
The Ork Codex looks like it was written to wipe the floor in 5th Ed.

5th Ed greatly benefits vast, lightly armed infantry hordes (since they move faster, and get better Cover, even from each other).

5th Ed greatly benefits armies that have masses of Troops, especially large numbered squads (kill 30 Orks to stop them scoring).

Conversely, it weakens all the mech armies, and small 'elite' armies.


So, yeah, Orks are laughing in 5th Ed.

I agree with this 500%. Counter-attack + Run means entire hordes of Orks will be in your face on turn 2 no matter what you do, they don't even need vehicles. Good luck surviving a charge from 30 models with 3 or 4 attacks each at S4.

cerealkiller195
29-05-2008, 14:49
i'm glad that i will hopefully see grots make a return to most ork armies. even when they dropped the special rules from them i still used them. Good to know that they will screen the army BETTER than before, just less comically.

eriochrome
29-05-2008, 16:35
Orks do seem to be very very strong in the new edition. The new casuality removal rule alone make 30 boy hoards with 3 specials and a PK Noob super compared to say a 10 man Tac squad. No way is shooting from 1 squad is going to do enough wounds to force a save on anyone interesting and now in close combat you can put the noob right up in front so he gets is attacks without fear of losing him since you can remove orks not even engaged.

And since you get about 300-400 points of Orks in the starter box you can see a lot of players starting ork armies.

IJW
29-05-2008, 16:39
Counter-attack + Run means entire hordes of Orks will be in your face on turn 2 no matter what you do, they don't even need vehicles.
To be picky, that's not really true as it assumes the non-Ork player has deployed as far forward as possible, and that the Waagh/Run rolls are both high...

Danny Internet
29-05-2008, 17:59
To be picky, that's not really true as it assumes the non-Ork player has deployed as far forward as possible, and that the Waagh/Run rolls are both high...

Yeah I just went over the numbers and this is correct for normal foot-slogging troops. Unless they deploy close to fully forward they won't get a charge on turn 2 with average rolls for run and fleet (37" charge range by the end of turn 2). Stormboyz certainly will though (49" charge range by turn 2).

Ravenous
29-05-2008, 18:03
I like how Kustom force field makes all vehicles obscured. Right now its crap, but in 5th that is a 4+ cover save, looks like speed freeks are going to be hitting again in force.

Then we have stormboyz moving an average of 19" with run in one turn (12" +D6 rokkit move + D6 run), so in 2 turns storm boyz will be able to move a whooping 40+ inches.


True LoS - nowhere for your trukks or your stormboys to hide.


Not so, now instead of being able to shoot through solid walls in area terrian you cannot be shot at all. It will work out on most tables, unless your fighting on an open table and even now you were screwed anyway.

Site note: where the hell is the Ork FAQ? It was due out today.

IJW
29-05-2008, 18:09
Lest I forget - Skorcha Buggies/Wartrakks and cover saves for vehicles. :evilgrin:

Meriwether
29-05-2008, 18:13
I think that orks are going to be powerhouses, but the main weakness built into the 5th edition rules is the lack of consolidation into new melee combats. Opening up orks to loads of rapid-fire is going to hurt, hurt, HURT orks, and badly.

Five-man basic marine squads with ten-man tactical squads behind them... Ugly, ugly, ugly day for whomever charges and wipes out those five guys.

Meri

Spinegaunt01
29-05-2008, 18:13
My mech. orks suddenly acquired a lot more anti-tank under 5th edition rules with no change to my current list. My 13 light vehicles suddenly become more reckless and seem to chew up the ground as they speed directly at the nearest tank.

Ramming- The ultimate trukk/buggy weapon?

Latro_
29-05-2008, 18:26
I like how Kustom force field makes all vehicles obscured. Right now its crap, but in 5th that is a 4+ cover save, looks like speed freeks are going to be hitting again in force.


As i understand it, vehicles get a cover save based on the type of cover they are in. So i'm thinking this will be a 5+ 'jink' style save.

Ravenous
29-05-2008, 18:30
As i understand it, vehicles get a cover save based on the type of cover they are in. So i'm thinking this will be a 5+ 'jink' style save.

True, but still a 5+ cover save is better then the obscured rules currently.

Latro_
29-05-2008, 18:39
oh yea for sure.
Thing is... does it apply to stompas in apoc too? lol ;)

Ravenous
29-05-2008, 18:43
Grots might also be worth taking again, something about getting a 4+ save from the blighters sounds good.

sukigod
29-05-2008, 19:11
Biker Nobs with Powerklaws?! Almost as good as Deffkoptas w/buzzsaws. Speed Freeks, 'ere we go!

I'm also up with grots again too. Meat shields have returned, and they don't have to sacrifice thier own lives!

unheilig
29-05-2008, 19:36
If I could field a competitive ork army with Trukks, Bikes, and Deathkoptas as far as the eye could see, I would be a happy ork. (not so keen on foot mobs and killa kans)

Will this be competetive in 5th?

IJW
29-05-2008, 20:15
I don't see why not.

Ravenous
30-05-2008, 02:53
I think really the question is Shoota boyz or Slugga boyz?

Shoota boyz are currently better hands down, but in 5th with units blocking each others LOS it might be hard to bring alot of them to bear on an enemy unit, and with all the cover saves now they will be recieving a 4+ in most cases which screws over killing lighter opponents.

Slugga boyz on the other hand will just run every turn with a grot wall in front of them until they are ready to Waaagh! into the enemy lines full force and really cause some havoc.

Lord Raneus
30-05-2008, 03:37
I agree with this 500%. Counter-attack + Run means entire hordes of Orks will be in your face on turn 2 no matter what you do, they don't even need vehicles. Good luck surviving a charge from 30 models with 3 or 4 attacks each at S4.

Fortunately, my drop-pod army should still be able to get a significant amount of fire in (and a good firebase set up as well.)

I feel bad for Imperial Guard, though.

Joewrightgm
30-05-2008, 04:07
I'm going to go against the shoota boy grain here.

30 Slugga boyz, at least from a visual impact of such a large unit, is a far more intimidating bunch, considering that they can: Move, Run, Move, WAAAGH! (Fleet) and assault, that means you'll be getting more models with 4 attacks at S 4 each into contact with the enemy.

Shoota boyz, I'm picturing a move, run, move, shoot the billy Hell out of anyone that in their way, then depeding on how many are left, move WAAAGH! and assault.

A note on the Grotz: since they will give the unit behind them a 4+ cover save, a big unit being shoved in front of the line is going to be back in style, especially for more Horde style Ork forces.

This leaves the enemy in the unenviable position of shooting at the mob of grotz in the hope of culling enough to allow other units to fire the the wave behind, or shoot past them and see up to half of their shots be ineffective.

Granted, I like shoota boyz and the look they give a well painted mob, but I think that the extra attack on the slugga boyz tips the scales for me at least.

Ravenous
30-05-2008, 04:14
Lets also consider that other CC armies will be running and fleeting at the Orks and shoota boyz will not get that many turns of shooting off before they get bogged down.

Mix in Ghazghkull and you have yourself a party:
Turn 1: 120+ slugga boyz move behind grot wall 6", run D6"
Turn 2: Same again
Turn 3: 6" + Waaagh! 6" + assault 6"

That's 30" before adding in the 2D6 run moves. If we include the 12" from the table edge and the average roll of 7 on 2D6 thats 49"!

Copella
30-05-2008, 05:05
Did orks and grotz get better leadership? If not, pinning maybe somewhat more effective. Than again templates just got a whole lot better against horde tactics in general. Maybe you shouln't feel too bad for those IG boys and girls. The drivers of Russ and Bassies seem to have buckets of paint to mark the # of kills they rack up.

Mr. Smuckles
30-05-2008, 05:09
Did orks and grotz get better leadership? If not, pinning maybe somewhat more effective. Than again templates just got a whole lot better against horde tactics in general. Maybe you shouln't feel too bad for those IG boys and girls. The drivers of Russ and Bassies seem to have buckets of paint to mark the # of kills they rack up.

Ork mobs have a leadership equal to the number of boyz in the mob. Grotz are LD 7 and do not benefit from the same rule.

That being said, I have 90 slugga boyz and 90 grots waiting for 5th edition!

EDIT: Too many beers. Grot mobz do indeed have the mob rule ability.

Kirasu
30-05-2008, 05:14
so just kill one grot from each unit with a sniper rifle :p pinning is likely to happen and no more shield..Grots in 3rd had crazy leadership with squigs, etc.. A few pins and that entirely strategy isnt very useful

Mr. Smuckles
30-05-2008, 05:17
so just kill one grot from each unit with a sniper rifle :p pinning is likely to happen and no more shield..Grots in 3rd had crazy leadership with squigs, etc.. A few pins and that entirely strategy isnt very useful

Grots have leadership equal to the number of models in the unit I made an error in my post.

cailus
30-05-2008, 05:25
Lets also consider that other CC armies will be running and fleeting at the Orks and shoota boyz will not get that many turns of shooting off before they get bogged down.

Mix in Ghazghkull and you have yourself a party:
Turn 1: 120+ slugga boyz move behind grot wall 6", run D6"
Turn 2: Same again
Turn 3: 6" + Waaagh! 6" + assault 6"

That's 30" before adding in the 2D6 run moves. If we include the 12" from the table edge and the average roll of 7 on 2D6 thats 49"!

That sounds like total yawnage! It's the one thing I fear with 5th edition. The scoring mechanism seems skewed towards very boring, very Troop oriented armies.

In 1/3 of all missions, only Troops count as scoring. In 1/3 of all other missions you get killponts for killing each unit.

What this means for Orks:

1.) Fast Attack choices such as Buggies, Warbikes and Deffkoptas becomes a liability - Fast Units cannot score in 1/3 of all missions. Given the smaller size of many of these units, they are really vulnerable to being wiped out so not appropriate for missions where killpoints are scored. Stormboyz are still good if fielded in large numbers

2.) Ork artillery becomes more of a liability as it is generally easy to destroy (I use a full 3 Kannon battery and it generally dies as soon as the enemy points a stick at it).

3.) Big Troop choices become the way to go - they can score and they are hard to fully destroy

4.) Ork fast vehicles become slower and more vulnerable - they now move only 18(19) inches and cannot hide behind area terrain. This especially impacts upon trukk mobs. It doesn't help that the easily destroyed trukk gives away a killpont.

5.) Grots become slightly more useful. I'd still prefer to spend the points on more boyz as grots are still very vulnerable to giving away killpoints. Just my preference though.

6.) Burna Boyz become slightly more useful as they can use trukks obtained for trukk mobs.

7.) With glancing being -2, Ork anti-tank capabilities become even more limited. Landraiders become immune to nearly everything except Tankhammers, Powerklaws and lucky Zzap gun rolls.

8.) Stormboyz can apparently run. They can be acquired in large numbers and may possibly be able to assault the turn they deepstrike. So they're even better than before.

9.) Kommandos (without Snikrot) get an upgrade as they can now appear on flanks or behind enemy lines.

10.) Lootas lose out a bit. They can no longer destroy AV13 vehicles and if they shoot through units they give the enemy a 4+ cover save. Given the size of an average Ork army, the latter will be common.

11.) Frag Stikkbombz are now useless against anyone other than Necrons and Tau. They can be used as anti-tank weapons if you're lucky enough to be striking rear armour.

12.) Battlewagons are more survivable especially if they are of the artillery/bug gun variant. Putting them behind cover makes them even more survivable. (Now if only they release a blasted model for one).

13.) Running makes Orks even more brutal in close combat.

14.) Counterattack makes Orks being charged an even more deadly proposition.

15.) Close combat casualty removal rules means all models in killzone should be able to strike as should our powerklaws.

So I can see units such as buggies and kannon disappearing from lists in favour of more stormboyz and more ordinary boyz mobs.

cailus
30-05-2008, 05:26
Grots have leadership equal to the number of models in the unit I made an error in my post.


That is normal Orks. Grots have leadership 5 that is boosted to leadership 7 with slavers and other slight bonuses for wargear.

Ravenous
30-05-2008, 06:19
That sounds like total yawnage! It's the one thing I fear with 5th edition. The scoring mechanism seems skewed towards very boring, very Troop oriented armies.



Now now, according to GW that will make the game BETTER.

But yeah I agree that the orks are going to have some uninteresting army choices in the future since in 5th Ork boyz become even more of a stupid good deal while the fun-er stuff is going to do nothing but hinder you.

Personally I would love to take an army with 2 wierdboyz and 2 shokk attack guns just to sit back and laugh but unfortunately its either one or the other.


That is normal Orks. Grots have leadership 5 that is boosted to leadership 7 with slavers and other slight bonuses for wargear.

Yep, grots are not effected by the Mob rule, they are Ld7 and get a re-roll because of the squig hound.

For the same price as 30 grots and 3 slavers you can take 20 orks, so the trade off really isnt there.

sorienor
30-05-2008, 07:15
One thing I noticed more then anything else was with open-topped vehicles the hit from forced bail-out is only STR3 instead of 4..this will help greatly with pens that don't destroy the trukk, as well as battle wagons.

The new turbo-boost rule actually makes it a viable option for Ork bikes, where as before I saw no need to ever loose a round of shooting.

They might as well just remove hit and run from deffkoptas..having the initiative test makes the skill pretty much useless.

Joewrightgm
30-05-2008, 13:04
what will stink for orks is Mob Rule makes them fearless, and so those turns when the enemy beats them in combat, they take additional armor saves.

This can mean that a relatively small elite assault unit, like Striking Scorpions can reap an impressive tally should they get a clean charge off.

Mr. Smuckles
30-05-2008, 15:02
That is normal Orks. Grots have leadership 5 that is boosted to leadership 7 with slavers and other slight bonuses for wargear.

Codex says that runtherds (which you have to take) have Mob Rule.

Meriwether
30-05-2008, 15:37
Codex says that runtherds (which you have to take) have Mob Rule.

Indeed. So they can replace their leadership (7) with the number of *orks* in the mob -- which is a maximum of three. So yeah, they have the mob rule... but unless you're *trying* to fall back, there's no reason to ever do it.

Meri

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 06:16
I find myself stumped when it comes to 5th and Orks.

I mean why bother taking the specialists when they are expensive, low model count, low Ld, non-scoring easy kills compared to the standard cheap, scoring, unstoppable boy.

Even the HQs are thrown into disarray, my warboss on a bike has to join a unit if he is within 2" or he can ride on his own and get picked off without restriction. The shokk attack gun mek pretty much will have to have a unit of lootas with him or he is a 95pt throw away unit. Mega armoured warbosses will need an entourage in a battlewagon with a kustom force field mek around (oh and BTW it DOES give vehicles a 4+ save since all vehicles that count as obscured get a 4+ save). That leaves wierdboyz and the special characters.

Grotsnik is going to a favourite because he makes your scoring units stick around that much longer.

cailus
03-06-2008, 07:23
I find myself stumped when it comes to 5th and Orks.

I mean why bother taking the specialists when they are expensive, low model count, low Ld, non-scoring easy kills compared to the standard cheap, scoring, unstoppable boy.

I thought this too. The only alternative is to maximise the number of models in the unit and that's costly and stupid - 225 points for 15 boyz with a 6+ save is madness.

The worst thing is I've been put off a MegaNob unit because unless you load up on lots of them, they now become easy Killpoints (I was going to have 3-4 in a trukk).




Even the HQs are thrown into disarray, my warboss on a bike has to join a unit if he is within 2" or he can ride on his own and get picked off without restriction. The shokk attack gun mek pretty much will have to have a unit of lootas with him or he is a 95pt throw away unit. Mega armoured warbosses will need an entourage in a battlewagon with a kustom force field mek around (oh and BTW it DOES give vehicles a 4+ save since all vehicles that count as obscured get a 4+ save). That leaves wierdboyz and the special characters.

My KFF lugging Big Mek isn't affected so much as I can still place him in a position whereby he covers several units.


Grotsnik is going to a favourite because he makes your scoring units stick around that much longer.

Souleater
03-06-2008, 08:16
I thought the Ork Mob rule made them test against their mob size (making them effectively fearless at a certain point) rather than making them Fearless per se?

Dribble Joy
03-06-2008, 10:04
The elite units will still have their place.

Lootas are any vehicle below AV14's worst nightmare.
Kommandos are a great distraction unit.
Nobs are a compact hard hitting unit with more PKs and survivability than a normal trukk boy mob.
Meganobs (in a trukk) and great for devistator/support unit/vehicle hunting.

Meriwether
03-06-2008, 12:19
I thought the Ork Mob rule made them test against their mob size (making them effectively fearless at a certain point) rather than making them Fearless per se?

You thought wrong. Ork mobs with 11+ models become Fearless.

Meri

Souleater
03-06-2008, 12:40
I guess they'll just have to not lose then :D

sukigod
03-06-2008, 12:52
My KFF lugging Big Mek isn't affected so much as I can still place him in a position whereby he covers several units.

I think this one will be a tough choice as well unless you get it just to cover vehicles. A grot screen will give your boyz better save at 1/3 to 1/2 the price.

greenskinned git
03-06-2008, 14:30
I think that the days of my KOS could be numbered. Standard strategy was to terrain hop up to my opponent and get in to hth, then leapfrog through the lines. This was the only way I could beat tau. Remember my whole list is pretty much armour 10. a 4+ cover save is going to do jack for me, since bolters and heavy bolters will be able to shoot through anything and frag my trukks. Even if I do make it in, I'll kill one squad, then lose the squad to being rapid fired on by the neighbours. Ok so I have to charge 2 squads at a time or tone down the power so the squad I attack will survive 2 turns.

One good thing about all my old crappy trukk models is that with true los, I'll be able to hide them a lot of places that the new trukks can't.

I really don't want to switch to footsloggers, I find that playstyle boring but I don't see many choices. I am going to try it out for myself a few times first and see if I can adapt. Perhaps a couple big battle wagons to hide my entire army behind for the first 3 turns will help. One thing, my KOS will own footslogging orks!

And Ravenous, one way to keep that shokk atack gun mek alive, is with a 10 man squad of grots to attach to. 30 points, string them out as far as possible. With all the other orks on the board, he will be very survivable then.
I'm not sure what I'll do with my warboss on a bike. He towers over 90% of the height of my army, and I don't know what to run him with. 10 bikes? Probably a squad of stormboyz, they are about the same speed.

Meriwether
03-06-2008, 15:15
With true LOS you can also hide a lot of boyz behind trukks, too. Don't give up on any army yet -- they may require some tweaks, but I don't see 5th edition making any army unviable.

Meri

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 16:53
I think that the days of my KOS could be numbered. Standard strategy was to terrain hop up to my opponent and get in to hth, then leapfrog through the lines. This was the only way I could beat tau. Remember my whole list is pretty much armour 10. a 4+ cover save is going to do jack for me, since bolters and heavy bolters will be able to shoot through anything and frag my trukks. Even if I do make it in, I'll kill one squad, then lose the squad to being rapid fired on by the neighbours. Ok so I have to charge 2 squads at a time or tone down the power so the squad I attack will survive 2 turns.

One good thing about all my old crappy trukk models is that with true los, I'll be able to hide them a lot of places that the new trukks can't.

I really don't want to switch to footsloggers, I find that playstyle boring but I don't see many choices. I am going to try it out for myself a few times first and see if I can adapt. Perhaps a couple big battle wagons to hide my entire army behind for the first 3 turns will help. One thing, my KOS will own footslogging orks!

And Ravenous, one way to keep that shokk atack gun mek alive, is with a 10 man squad of grots to attach to. 30 points, string them out as far as possible. With all the other orks on the board, he will be very survivable then.
I'm not sure what I'll do with my warboss on a bike. He towers over 90% of the height of my army, and I don't know what to run him with. 10 bikes? Probably a squad of stormboyz, they are about the same speed.

Actually I think the 4+ will do you good, you roll it after your opponent makes the pen roll, so bolters need to roll 6s before you roll the cover save.

If its on the hits then it wouldnt make sense because then why do infantry have to wait to be wounded before they get their cover save instead of rolling it after the hits?

And good idea with the grots, you could even put him with a big gun crew with extra grots. As for your Warboss, even if he wasnt towering over everyone he could still be shot, models dont block LOS, you just get (or give) a 4+ cover save if you shoot through them. Its just a shame the warboss already has a 4+ cover save from the bike. Tau will be able to just blast him off the table with railguns.

greenskinned git
03-06-2008, 17:31
well yes I do realize the cover save is on the wounds / pens / glances. The trouble is, trukks die to a stiff breeze, and they will generally face 2 turns of fire before being in charge range with their reduced speed.

I'm really just hoping that my army will still be ok. Won't know until I get a few games in.

BTW, I wouldn't put the SAG big mek with a big gun krew. The 10 grots only have a 12" range and won't be shooting at jack, but have 10 bodies that have to go before the mek is exposed. A big gun has 2 crew, and a max of 5 I think. It will be taken under 1/2 too easily without spending even more points what is now approaching what could be spent on a battle wagon, which is arguably a better buy.

Ravening Wh0re
03-06-2008, 17:34
And Ravenous, one way to keep that shokk atack gun mek alive, is with a 10 man squad of grots to attach to. 30 points, string them out as far as possible. With all the other orks on the board, he will be very survivable then.

Technically the squad will cost 40 pts since you have to have a slaver for every 10 grots, no?

neophryte
03-06-2008, 18:20
The thing that will hurt your KOS more than what you mentioned is that fast nonskimmers only move 18"

gorgon
03-06-2008, 18:36
It won't be as easy to screen boyz with grotz as you think. Remember, run is a random roll. What happens the first time the grotz run 1" and the boyz behind run 6"? Either the units bunch up and your whole advance bogs down, or those boyz lope out ahead of the grot screen. Trust me. It's a recurring issue that you greenskins will experience now that you're finally getting as fast as us bugs. ;)

And what about after you hit h2h? Units will get strung out or bunched up, and neat screening formations will be impossible to maintain. Remember that without consolidation into h2h, you're going to be exposed to rapid-fire death. And what about mobile firepower? Opponents can get around a unit screen...but not the range of the KFF.

I think the KFF will still have its place.

Famder
03-06-2008, 19:03
People are neglecting the other role of the grot screen. They are an even better assault buffer. Units can no longer consolidate into a new unit so you throw a unit of grots out so an assaulter has to assualt them and then watch as the grots get slaughtered. Then on your turn you unload on them and charge.

@gorgon: If the grots roll a 1 then you have to adjust just like you would if one unit was having trouble going through terrain. You are slightly slowed, but so long as the grots are still in front your boyz will be able to weather a lot of fire.

When you get into h2h, you manuever the grots between your assaulters and the nearby shooting squads. Or you hope that you don't break the enemy in your assault phase, which if its marines is a likely thing to hope for.

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 19:44
The other bad part for KoS is that the trukks give up a kill point :\

PapaNurgle
03-06-2008, 20:26
I like 2 units of 19 grots with 1 slaver plus a Mek with SAG. 6 casualties before it's a check, and even then you're on LD 8 with a re-roll from the slava/herda. 2 ordanance templates is a decent amount of shooting.

One other thing to think about is that if you're at extreme charge range, you may be better off not charging - situation dependent, but if you charge and clip your opponent, he gets a free counter charge move to get all of his unit into combat. Orks can be stuck spread out to avoid templates and have very little in the kill zone. Makes for some interesting decisions...

Dribble Joy
03-06-2008, 20:29
Battle wagons are a lot better though. No entangled and stuff plus AV14 and a 4+ cover. And of course you can fit 20 in one.

Meriwether
03-06-2008, 21:31
LOL. I love Warseer. Every time you see someone posting that something sucks because of a rules change, you see someone else posting how it's better.

Meri

The_Outsider
03-06-2008, 21:38
I think orks will have to be seriously careful of horde slayers (example: striking scoprians), a dedicated horde slaying CC unit could very easily wipe out a mob over 2 turns with virtually no return attacks.

totgeboren
03-06-2008, 22:21
I think orks will have to be seriously careful of horde slayers (example: striking scoprians), a dedicated horde slaying CC unit could very easily wipe out a mob over 2 turns with virtually no return attacks.

How would that be possible?

The ork player will just remove the models at the back first. So say 10 Striking Scorps assault 30 sluggas lead by a nob with a pk. The Scorps kill 10 boys on the charge, but the ork player only removes models that where not within 2" (remember everyone get counter assault).

So the orks hit back with 19 boys plus the Nob, thats hardly "no return attacks".

Say the orks kill 6 Eldar, then the Eldar won by (10-6=4) 4 points, so the ork rolls 4 saves, no sixes, so 4 orks die.

Now we have 16 orks ws 4 Scorps.

The only way to kill a large mob of orks is be either whittling it down or by hitting it with alot at once.

Say 10 Dire avengers open fire on them and kill 10 orks, the scorps fire and kill 3 orks, and then charge. Now we're talking. :)

Orks will have it good in 5:ed. Where others need multiple units to do the job, we just need afew big units. :)

scientist tz
03-06-2008, 22:33
Don't Trukks get a 4+ cover save when moving 12-18"?

That's a huge boost, IMO. I'll take the save over the 6" of movement any day.

Lootas will just have to deploy on high ground or spend a turn running to get in a better firing lane. No big deal.

Kirasu
03-06-2008, 22:41
Also remember you cant move through your own models, so if you line up your grots and you roll a 1 for run and then a 6 for your boyz you better have spread them out or you are not going anywhere (choice or not)

scientist tz
04-06-2008, 04:24
After reading some of the 5e threads I'm a little concerned about the effect of the defender response move when assaulted.

Initiative 4 models such as chaos marines and space marines are always striking before Orks, even on the charge. A big Ork mob that charges into some chaos marines and just barely makes it (i.e. the charge is just under 6" and only 1 or 2 Orks make BTB) is going to get smacked with a ton of attacks before getting to strike. Sure, the Ork player can pull those casualties from the back of the mob but he's probably still going to lose the combat and end up taking even more wounds from "No Retreat!"

I anticipate using the WAAGGH not to make it into charge range but to simply make sure I get more models engaged in the combat.

Ravenous
04-06-2008, 04:57
After reading some of the 5e threads I'm a little concerned about the effect of the defender response move when assaulted.

Initiative 4 models such as chaos marines and space marines are always striking before Orks, even on the charge. A big Ork mob that charges into some chaos marines and just barely makes it (i.e. the charge is just under 6" and only 1 or 2 Orks make BTB) is going to get smacked with a ton of attacks before getting to strike. Sure, the Ork player can pull those casualties from the back of the mob but he's probably still going to lose the combat and end up taking even more wounds from "No Retreat!"

I anticipate using the WAAGGH not to make it into charge range but to simply make sure I get more models engaged in the combat.

Well, the best tactic against orks for years has always been 'assault them first'.

Its just a matter of properly supporting your units and properly placing them. With the example of the striking scorpions who only have a 12" move assault range, would have to take a turn of 30+ shootas rifling at them, and if you know they are coming on from the sides then you know not to stray close to the sides.

The other side is your opponent flooring a unit at your with a transport, and if he is within 12" of you from the transport then you know for a fact that you can assault it and strike the rear armour with your S9 power klaw. At that rate all you need to do is cover the doors, I do it to harle mounted falcons all the time, it renders the unit ineffective.

Other then that the only real way of screwing up is walking into it, and if that happens then it usually means you deserved it.

cailus
04-06-2008, 05:58
Regarding Grots versus Big Mek with KFF - Grots might be great charge blockers but they tend to just get in the way. I used to use a 22 strong unit of Grots under the old 3rd edition codex and they were always getting in the way of the Orks, thereby mucking up my charges.

I know some players tended to use Grots successfully but they played on tables where there was next to no terrain so grots were the only way of getting a cover save. Furtherm

Furthermore in 1/3 of all games Grots give easy killpoints. Remember that they are T2. So unless your fielding a 30 strong unit you'll be suffering massive casualties even against flashlights.

The KFF gives my units freedom to move. I usually can get 3 units underneath it (and I play under the rule that I have to over 50% of a unit underneath the KFF for the unit to benefit from the save)

The KFF also fills in my compulsory HQ slot. It also fits in with my army's current background - the Warboss Gorguts Ragnarok has been slain in battle, leaving Big Mek Worbag Gutrippa in charge of my beleaguered Ork forces.

Churoc
04-06-2008, 13:44
This is a great debate to have. I love how the Ork list has many viable options, and very few "No-Brainers". Do I take a looted wagon or a battle wagon or lobbas. Do I bring shootas or sluggas. Grots or KFF. Bwagon transport or truk. Bmek or Wierdboy.

I do see Orks having difficulty killing certain vehicles especially Land Raider/Monolith. No matter how many Rokkits you send at them you can't killl the *&%$@! things. I guess it is up to the Klaws and Tankhammers to take them out.

neophryte
04-06-2008, 16:28
Of course, the land raider and monolith are supposed to be hard to kill and both are over 200 points (my crusader is 2 points shy of 300). It will be nice to actually use them again.

edit: and yes, you are right, it is awesome to discover that choices are now viable again!

gorgon
04-06-2008, 21:21
People are neglecting the other role of the grot screen. They are an even better assault buffer. Units can no longer consolidate into a new unit so you throw a unit of grots out so an assaulter has to assualt them and then watch as the grots get slaughtered. Then on your turn you unload on them and charge.

I agree with this.


@gorgon: If the grots roll a 1 then you have to adjust just like you would if one unit was having trouble going through terrain. You are slightly slowed, but so long as the grots are still in front your boyz will be able to weather a lot of fire.

And I think the problem with this is that you've now slowed up everything behind those grots. It may seems incremental, but having to deploy your boyz a couple inches farther back, then getting held up a little by the grots can mean you hit combat a turn later than you would otherwise. And intervening terrain complicates things even more.

I'm not saying grots won't be useful this way, just that the random roll can throw some wrenches into your plans.


When you get into h2h, you manuever the grots between your assaulters and the nearby shooting squads. Or you hope that you don't break the enemy in your assault phase, which if its marines is a likely thing to hope for.

If you can pull this off and keep things this way after your opponent gets a chance to move too, great. But it seems to me KFF range is a lot easier to manage, and that keeps the KFF every bit as viable as grots.

An alternative approach is to use a small throwaway grot screen AND KFF. You can hide behind the grots for the first turn or two, then ditch 'em and rely on the KFF if their run rolls slow things up.

SwordJon
04-06-2008, 21:28
An Ork mob who gets charged is probably going to be in for a world of hurt, especially if being charged by assault vets, berzerkers, or something akin to that. Losing combat while not fearless means they're pretty much guaranteed to run, and losing combat while fearless means you could be losing 5+ extra models that turn. That's a huge blow.

greenskinned git
04-06-2008, 21:30
I'm guessing right now, but since tankbustas can see every tank on the board now, more or less, they've actually become worse in 5th edition. That's hard to imagine, or am I not seeing the big picture here?

SwordJon
04-06-2008, 21:37
I'm guessing right now, but since tankbustas can see every tank on the board now, more or less, they've actually become worse in 5th edition. That's hard to imagine, or am I not seeing the big picture here?

You've got to remember that if someone parks behind a building or a hill or even a ruin you're not gonna be able to see them, even if the ruin is area terrain, the physical features of the terrain still block Line of Sight.

Famder
04-06-2008, 22:51
I'm guessing right now, but since tankbustas can see every tank on the board now, more or less, they've actually become worse in 5th edition. That's hard to imagine, or am I not seeing the big picture here?

This was the case in 4e, they could always see tanks in most cases unless behind area terrain. Now it is teh same deal except replace area terrain with "anything that covers them up"

cailus
05-06-2008, 00:36
An Ork mob who gets charged is probably going to be in for a world of hurt, especially if being charged by assault vets, berzerkers, or something akin to that. Losing combat while not fearless means they're pretty much guaranteed to run, and losing combat while fearless means you could be losing 5+ extra models that turn. That's a huge blow.


Yeah it's gonna be a whole new world of ouch out there for the boyz.

I think this will be an area where a Grot unit will be useful as a charge buffer, providing enemy shooting doesn't rip the Grot unit to shreds.

Against full-on assault armies, it's always been good for an Ork player to cower behind cover and shoot the enemy until they get in close enough for you to charge them or to be in a better position to absorb a charge.

The issue arises when it's a balanced army with extremely hard close combat units and excellent fire support (e.g. Chaos or some Nid armies). Cowering means the shooting will eventually grind you down while moving forward means sooner or later you'll have to tangle with the close combat units while also braving the firepower.

But that's where the challenge of the game comes into play!

Ravenous
05-06-2008, 03:33
Im actually getting very tempted to throw Grotsnik into a unit of 30 'ard boyz as my assault absorbtion unit.

They are one of the few units that can take the hits and keep going.

cailus
05-06-2008, 04:12
The only change I think I'll do to my force is increase my planned bike unit from 6 to 9 bikers and add a Powerklaw nob to my unit of 16 Stormboyz.

As part of my first wave assault both units now need to be able to inflict maximum casualties the turn they assault as well as be able to stick around should things go bad.

Otherwise the new combat resolution system will see them run down too early.

Da Black Gobbo
05-06-2008, 10:00
Good lord guys is true that orks are going to have a big buff with new rules, Gratz to all the orks in here...My life for some whirlwinds/heavy flamers.

Meriwether
05-06-2008, 12:14
I'm guessing right now, but since tankbustas can see every tank on the board now, more or less, they've actually become worse in 5th edition. That's hard to imagine, or am I not seeing the big picture here?

I like 'em just fine. Put your warpheads in with them and they're tank-killing powerhouses who can deepstrike around to get closest to the tank you want dead.

Meri

Dribble Joy
05-06-2008, 13:10
Im actually getting very tempted to throw Grotsnik into a unit of 30 'ard boyz as my assault absorbtion unit.

They are one of the few units that can take the hits and keep going.

Except they will cost 15 points each (300+ for a sizable unit) plus Grotsnik's not inconsiderable cost. That's easily 500 points for a 21 model unit, my 9 strong meganob unit with a WB costs that much.

Churoc
06-06-2008, 19:42
pUT GROTSNIK WITH THE mEGANOBZ NOW YOU HAVE A NASTY unit. Really only viable for apocalypse but lots of fun.

scientist tz
06-06-2008, 21:03
And I think the problem with this is that you've now slowed up everything behind those grots. It may seems incremental, but having to deploy your boyz a couple inches farther back, then getting held up a little by the grots can mean you hit combat a turn later than you would otherwise. And intervening terrain complicates things even more.

I only partially agree with this.

The boyz and grots advance with the grots staying clustered. The Boyz shoot or run in the shooting phase while the grots are nicely out of the way. After all the shooting is done the grots use their run move to spread out, forming a meat shield.

The next turn you do it in reverse. The grots move first and use their movement to advance and get clustered up. Now that they're out of the way the boyz can move and shoot. At the end of the shooting phase they use their run move to form another meat shield.

If you use 2 small-ish (15?) units of grots you should be able to screen from the right and left.

The ability for most units to move in the shooting phase is going to be interesting for Orks.

gorgon
06-06-2008, 21:20
I don't follow how that helps your boyz advance straight ahead behind the grots when the grots get a run roll of 1, while the boyz roll a 6. That's the point. Unless you can keep the grots rolling higher or equal to the boyz, you may not be able to keep them in front AND use the boyz' run roll to its full potential. With a KFF, no tricky movement is required. I really think you need to try it on the tabletop so you can see what I mean.

I like Grot screening more in other situations, mind you.