PDA

View Full Version : Wave Serpents vs Falcons in 5th



garinator
30-05-2008, 00:43
(disclaimer, please don't bring arguments along the lines of "we dont know what the rules are yet" these are counter productive. We both are looking at the same forums so we both have access to the same rumours)

Right so as the title shows, id like to ask, which will be better in 5th?

I have read some useful mathhammer on the falcons and I am convinced that they have taken a nerf. They are no longer the mobile gunships that they were (so the second weapon you pay for is useless for a falcon that will move alot) and you can now score penetrating hits on them.

With that in mind, I turn back to the wave serpent. Because of the energy field chances of penetrating hits are much lower (as opposed to falcons who will be penetrated by lascanons on 4+ and railcannons on 3+, admittedly with some form of save). With the possibility of farseers casting psychic powers from inside vehicles and the fact that the enlarged transport capacity will allow you to more easily couple serpents and seers together I think this combo is highly useful. Of course you can do this with falcons but the aforementioned increased capacity makes it easier to do this with serpents.

Further they do not suffer in the same way from the defensive weapon nerf. I see the twin-linked scatter laser/shuri cannon combo as quite effective and cheaper than the falcon.

Further neither vehicles can now capture objectives so that advantage of falcon is also gone.

Im a law student and rubbish at maths and probabilities (gave maths up when i was 16 and havn't touched it since!) so if anyone has the mathhammer for the wave serpent It would be much appreciated.

ScytheSwathe
30-05-2008, 00:50
Lets not kid ourselves, the falcon in 4th was too good, holo with old SMF was simply too much. Falcs will have to make use of cover now instead, 4+ cover save and able to fire all weapons after moving up to 6" is still quite good. Just no longer the quin-mobile it used to be (and thats a good thing).

Meaning.... If you want a transport, buy the the designated transport, if you want a gunship, buy (one of) the designated gunships.

Not too hard to believe i hope.

garinator
30-05-2008, 01:00
hmm the thrust of the post was at wave serpents VERSUS falcons. So thanks for ignoring half the post altogether >.>

If might to the mathhammer myself and post it later if it seems good enough...

garinator
30-05-2008, 01:48
serpent
3+ 4+ 5+

6.6% 9.5% 12.6%

Falcon
Vs a S9 hit
3+ 4+ 5+
Deadó4.8%---7.2%--9.6%

Thanks to the person who posted the mathhammer on the falcon for the lower statistics. It is assuming a Lascannon hit and it is also assuming holofields on both vehicles. I guess I really should do it for s10 shots as well as that is where the serpent will really shine but I think s9 is probably the more common hit. And against s8 it is a non issue as the energy field is non-effective.

So meh serpent still more effective. I guess the second poster was right about the proper roles, but the comment was still unhelpful because I had to go and do the research myself! :P

Stezerok
30-05-2008, 01:59
hmm the thrust of the post was at wave serpents VERSUS falcons. So thanks for ignoring half the post altogether >.>

If might to the mathhammer myself and post it later if it seems good enough...

well I think he sort of answered the question, just in a round-about way...

But as to the OP, I'm not going to go into it from a MathHammer perspective because I don't think I could be bothered to do that kind of math at the moment, and because I don't think it's capable of taking in the full effects of changes to a game where other variables like tactics matter...

When we look at it, there are three essential changes that really cause this question to come about:
1. Skimmers Moving Fast being changed
2. Defensive Weapons become str 4-
3. Dedicated Transports no longer restricted to Dedicated Unit

For Skimmers moving fast this basically means that the overall durability of our skimmers has gone down, as now we can be penetrated. But what that basically means is that whereas before, it didn't matter whether the opponent glanced on a 1+ or a 3+ so long as they glanced, now this is not the case as we can be penetrated and so the 1+ or 3+ suddenly becomes a big deal. For this reason the value of the Force Field on the serpent suddenly increases as it decreases Lascannon shots from a 3 glance/4+ pen to a 4 glance/5+ pen. This by itself isn't much, but it's enough to put the Serpent ahead of the falcon in terms of durability when considering the softer damage table. But there is another aspect to this too. When considering Falcon vs Serpent, the main thing we have to keep in mind is that the Falcons primary objective can either be to fire or move, the serpents is to move, so the change of SMF to only apply after moving 13+ inches really doesn't negatively affect Serpents considering they should be moving that fast anyhow...

For the defensive weapons, the only real reason the Serpent is better in this area is because the Falcon must take a second gun. Because it already comes with a pulse laser, and its actual base cost is 120-145 (because we are required to buy the second gun), the Falcon suddenly is not points effective considering it can only fire one of those weapons at a time if on the move. This means that not only does the Falcon lose as far as effectiveness, but that it also becomes even more conflicted in its purpose (do I carry my guys and sacrifice vital shots at the enemy, or do I shoot and risk my tank to exposure...). The serpent has no such conflict in interest, it takes its troops where it needs to go, shoots once or so to cover for them and then is off again. The funny thing about this now, is that after having said all this the Falcon in one way benefits from this and the change to SMF. With SMF, there is no longer any reason to move 7+ inches, as it doesn't grant a save or anything. So if you hover around moving up to 6" you can fire off a lot of shots at the enemy, and this I think will start to come in the form of Pulse Laser/EML or Pulse Laser/Bright Lance for a trifecta of str 8 death.

Finally the change to Dedicated Transports, not a huge change, but one that still puts the Falcon out of business, because not only is the Serpent proving to be tougher, more points effective, and straightforward in its use, but now it is also beginning to overlap with the falcon in an area that made the falcon unique. This combined with small carriage and non-scoring status now, and the falcon doesn't look so hot.

But after having said all this, I still think we'll be seeing the falcon. Now we suddenly find ourselves in a position to take weapons that before we really couldn't afford to, and this combined with the fact that Holofield is particularly useful with this new table means that even pens can be relatively harmless. And despite the conflict in interest the Falcon still works as the all-rounder as it just means that we will have to spend the first 2-3 turns carrying cargo and the final few turns not moving too far but shooting a heck of a lot. Basically where before it was a do both, now we have to choose, and to be honest, I really don't have that big a problem with that...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Mad Larkin UK
30-05-2008, 02:01
Wave serpents with Star engines are sooo good at busting tanks. I dont know if this will be FAQed, but we have been over the ramming rules, and theres nothing that says it cant be over strength 10. Its not a characteristic so that rule doesnt apply.

So anyway, wave serpent with minimum points weapons, rams a monolith at top speed :
36 inch move= Strength 12
your armour is 12= Strength 14

So basically its a penetrating hit on the monolith.

Now i dont know the wave serpents rules, but does the forcefield know down ALL hits to strength 8, or just from shooting?

Cause if its everything, the serpent only takes a strength 8 return hit!!

So 5's to penetrate!!

RAMMING SPEED!!!

Mandragola
30-05-2008, 02:03
Interesting question really.

There are some points which apply to both and whose effects are hard to know before playing a bunch of games.

The first is the effect of actual glancing hits. That is, when you equal the armour value of the vehicle. This shouldn't be ignored.

For example, currently lots of people fire relatively low strength guns at eldar skimmers, because there's no need to try to get a penetrating hit. You may as well shoot at them with autocannons, multi lasers, scatter lasers and so on. The multiple shots mean that these kinds of guns have comparable chances vs skimmers to the heavier guns. This is especially the case with the wave serpent, since you can't get high Str hits anyway. These guns tend to also be a bit more easily available than lascannons and stuff.

In 5th, these guns are way, way worse than in 4th. Shooting a falcon with a scatter laser becomes almost a total waste of time. The damage table is way more forgiving and it gets a save it never used to have.

So while skimmer tanks become more vulnerable to heavy guns, you do actually have to hit them with something quite serious. They may end up becoming even harder to destroy than they are now once metagame considerations are taken into account, particularly since people will want more troops and troops tend not to have access to much very heavy weaponry. Basically people will have fewer heavy weps in 5th, and many of those weps will be less effective against skimmers.

Now comparing the wave serpent and the falcon, I would definitely go for serpents. They will become a truly excellent multi-role transport/tank, as they were in 3rd edition. Their fields really make a big impact in 5th because people will need to roll at least a 5+ to penetrate, even with railguns and the like. Then you get a save too - apparently a 4+. Dropping one of these will be really difficult.

Personally, I'd give them twin linked bright lances. It's very rare to get a mobile anti-tank gun as part of a troops choice these days, so these are great. This set up can go head to head with pretty much any enemy vehicle in the game and expect to win.

Falcons will still be ok, but won't shine. With half a serpent's transport capacity and now unable to combine its shooting and transport tasks I think they lose out. People who want guns will get them elsewhere, and people who want transports will take wave serpents.

king_mob
30-05-2008, 02:24
Wave serpents with Star engines are sooo

Now i dont know the wave serpents rules, but does the forcefield know down ALL hits to strength 8, or just from shooting?



Long live Stab Engines!

The codex says the Serpent's force field doesn't protect it from attacks in assault. I think that's intended to include any kind of physical attack, like ramming, but there's nothing in the .pdf that explicitly says ramming = assault.

But if I rammed a Land Raider or a Monolith with my Stab Engine'd Serpent and then claimed that I only took a S8 hit back because of my force field, I'd feel like an ass-hat.

Stezerok
30-05-2008, 02:30
Long live Stab Engines!

The codex says the Serpent's force field doesn't protect it from attacks in assault. I think that's intended to include any kind of physical attack, like ramming, but there's nothing in the .pdf that explicitly says ramming = assault.


Well actually that makes a bit more sense now, because it doesn't work on any attacks against the rear armor, but since Assaults always hit the rear armor, then that does tend to make the field pretty invalid...


But if I rammed a Land Raider or a Monolith with my Stab Engine'd Serpent and then claimed that I only took a S8 hit back because of my force field, I'd feel like an ass-hat.

ah but you would be a winning ass-hat ;) jk

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Lord Raneus
30-05-2008, 03:33
I wouldn't recommend either against Tau, Markerlights will make short, short work of fragile Eldar Skimmers.

For transport, I'd recommend the Wave Serpent since, as it has been said, the Falcon is not as useful as a combo shooty and transport tank, because it cannot get as many shots.

Kirasu
30-05-2008, 05:18
You can only do an assault attack by charging and engaging in an assault.. Ramming isnt charging nor is it an assault so that by it self doesnt stop the forcefield by working

However the wording of energy field says ranged attacks, and this is not a ranged attack (Unless of course ramming is considered a shooting attack in the rulebook which would be strange)

Stezerok
30-05-2008, 05:40
You can only do an assault attack by charging and engaging in an assault.. Ramming isnt charging nor is it an assault so that by it self doesnt stop the forcefield by working

However the wording of energy field says ranged attacks, and this is not a ranged attack (Unless of course ramming is considered a shooting attack in the rulebook which would be strange)

yes you are indeed correct... pity, I was hoping to model my wave serpents as Shield Ligers from Zoids Chaotic Century... :rolleyes:

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

FarseerInthalas
30-05-2008, 05:54
I think that it isnt assault, especially if you are the one who rams. it wouldn't target the rear armour would it?

Oh, and serpent because tl lance is really good (you should always hit)

big squig
30-05-2008, 06:56
serpent
3+ 4+ 5+

6.6% 9.5% 12.6%

Falcon
Vs a S9 hit
3+ 4+ 5+
Deadó4.8%---7.2%--9.6%

Thanks to the person who posted the mathhammer on the falcon for the lower statistics. It is assuming a Lascannon hit and it is also assuming holofields on both vehicles. I guess I really should do it for s10 shots as well as that is where the serpent will really shine but I think s9 is probably the more common hit. And against s8 it is a non issue as the energy field is non-effective.

So meh serpent still more effective. I guess the second poster was right about the proper roles, but the comment was still unhelpful because I had to go and do the research myself! :P
I thought wave serpents couldn't take holofields?

zeqe
30-05-2008, 07:43
Wave Serpents can't take holo-fields, unfortunately, if they could they would be a pretty reliable AT choice considering how cheap they are.

Ramming isn't an assault, I checked today about a few things that concern ramming, and if you were thinking about making Eldar Guided Missiles out of your skimmers to take out monoliths I have some heartbreaking news for you:

Depending on how fast your skimmer target moved, you might only hit it on a 4+ or worse.

I really think people are giving up a bit too early on eldar skimmers. People have either selectively overlooked it or haven't read through the posts which state that your fast skimmers DO NOT crash from immobilized results unless they moved flat out. I consider that a pretty big positive change as it means we're not roped into getting vectored engines ever again.

esk34
30-05-2008, 11:37
I think they have become almost even now. With the SMF nerf, the falcon will be penetrated more often so will probably as mentioned move slowly hanging around the back of the battlefeild offering support for any footsloggers. I would still opt to have something in a falcon in ths role, maybe firedragons still (at 80 points for 5 they are simply to good.) for counter shooting in case of assult/ scout move/ deepstrike close by. That or maybe a small howling banshee/ scorp/ harlie sqaud to counter assult with.
Waveserphants are harder to hit with the big stuff, so will be good for reaching the enemy qiuckly and outflanking them.
I think that both tanks now have a more defined role to play in an Eldar army, falcon gunship, protecting/ transporting small assult sqauds for counter attack. Waveserphant main transport for the majority of your army.

ScytheSwathe
30-05-2008, 12:34
I reckon i answered the question, you wanted to know which is better, I pointed out that its not all bad for falc so long as they stay in cover, so no good for transporting units, but it still packs a punch in used properly. The S4 nerf isnt all bad, you can still get the cover save without moving fast so long as youre in/behind cover, then you can move up to 6 (countering movement of antitank moving to find you) and still shoot whatever you want, Equip with EML and should you need to move you can still get a shot off with plasma missile.

whereas the waveserpent will now be better for transports as they can take the real antitank (meltas, S9/10) a little better, which is good as they are less likely to be able to hug perfect cover, being across the board delivering the troops.
I like the idea of super ram for it too, but im sure itll be capped at S10, in the same sense as all the Ork mob rule vs mind war etc debates. Still potentially only get S8 in return....

Ultimately, Waveserpent Vs Falcon in 5th depends on what you want it for.


So meh serpent still more effective. I guess the second poster was right about the proper roles, but the comment was still unhelpful because I had to go and do the research myself! :P

Sorry, i wasnt in a very good mood when i wrote that, so it is a bit abrupt, and like you, im far too lazy to do all the mathhammer

Meriwether
30-05-2008, 13:55
Long live Stab Engines!

The codex says the Serpent's force field doesn't protect it from attacks in assault. I think that's intended to include any kind of physical attack, like ramming, but there's nothing in the .pdf that explicitly says ramming = assault.

But if I rammed a Land Raider or a Monolith with my Stab Engine'd Serpent and then claimed that I only took a S8 hit back because of my force field, I'd feel like an ass-hat.

Newton's third law would have something to say about that...

As to the OP, I have always thought that the waveserpent is superior to the falcon. I own three falcons and have never fielded more than one per 2000 points... I own seven waveserpents and often field six.

Waveserpents got a *buff* in the new edition, and they were well worth it before.

Meri

Stezerok
30-05-2008, 14:02
I really think people are giving up a bit too early on eldar skimmers. People have either selectively overlooked it or haven't read through the posts which state that your fast skimmers DO NOT crash from immobilized results unless they moved flat out. I consider that a pretty big positive change as it means we're not roped into getting vectored engines ever again.

what the frell... is no one reading this?! I've never heard of this before, are you absolutely positive about this? If this is the case then I'm really excited about my skimmers in 5th, and suddenly Falcons and Fire Prisms make a bit more sense...

You know I was thinking about it the other day, and while it was a nerf, I sort of thought about how SMF was if you move more than 12" and the fact that normal tracked vehicles move up to 12", and I realized: well if they were to differentiate between Skimmers Moving Fast and a tracked vehicle moving pretty fast, then they'd need to ensure the Skimmer does in fact move faster, otherwise it doesn't really make sense to gain such a save considering that moving 7"+ isn't moving faster than a tracked vehicle. So I figured that the new SMF rule does really make sense. And now that they've made it so that Skimmers don't get downed after moving at such speed then it suddenly become worth it.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

DaveV
30-05-2008, 17:25
I really think people are giving up a bit too early on eldar skimmers. People have either selectively overlooked it or haven't read through the posts which state that your fast skimmers DO NOT crash from immobilized results unless they moved flat out. I consider that a pretty big positive change as it means we're not roped into getting vectored engines ever again.

Isn't there still a use for vectored engines - for heavy skimmers that are moving flat out to get their cargo someplace fast?

Wouldn't vectored engines also prevent skimmers moving flat out from being destroyed upon receiving a glancing hit?

Vaktathi
30-05-2008, 17:33
I have read some useful mathhammer on the falcons and I am convinced that they have taken a nerf. They are no longer the mobile gunships that they were (so the second weapon you pay for is useless for a falcon that will move alot) In this regard yes, they are no longer the firepower bases they were


and you can now score penetrating hits on them. However they flat out ignore 33%-50% of hits. This makes them at least as survivable if not more. Remember there is a new damage table as well, and even on a Penetrating hit, 75% of the time you won't suffer anything worse than a weapon destroyed result if you have Holofields.




With that in mind, I turn back to the wave serpent. Because of the energy field chances of penetrating hits are much lower (as opposed to falcons who will be penetrated by lascanons on 4+ and railcannons on 3+, admittedly with some form of save). Yes, however Holofields is the big difference here. A Falcon with VE and HF on a pen will only go down 1/9 times, a Wave Serpent with VE will go down 1/3 pens.


With the possibility of farseers casting psychic powers from inside vehicles and the fact that the enlarged transport capacity will allow you to more easily couple serpents and seers together I think this combo is highly useful. Of course you can do this with falcons but the aforementioned increased capacity makes it easier to do this with serpents. and waveserpents are cheaper :D



Further they do not suffer in the same way from the defensive weapon nerf. I see the twin-linked scatter laser/shuri cannon combo as quite effective and cheaper than the falcon. Don't forget in 5th Ed that the scatterlaser and Shuricannon can't fire together on the move, however an EML and a Shuricannon could, just as one could fire TL catapults, EML and Pulse Laser on a Falcon. That said, the Wave Serpent is still almost half the cost and thus much cheaper.



Further neither vehicles can now capture objectives so that advantage of falcon is also gone. Yup, however the Falcon can still contest objectives, I don't believe the Wave Serpent will, although I could be wrong.




Im a law student and rubbish at maths and probabilities (gave maths up when i was 16 and havn't touched it since!) so if anyone has the mathhammer for the wave serpent It would be much appreciated. The Wave Serpent will still go down faster than the Falcon in most cases, however for most uses the Wave Serpent *will* be a better use of points.

IJW
30-05-2008, 17:37
Wave serpents with Star engines are sooo good at busting tanks. I dont know if this will be FAQed, but we have been over the ramming rules, and theres nothing that says it cant be over strength 10. Its not a characteristic so that rule doesnt apply.
It's already BEEN FAQed - the Eldar FAQ from earlier this month clearly states that the Star Engine move takes place in the shooting phase - and I'm pretty sure the ramming rules only apply during the movement phase...

Cypher
30-05-2008, 17:57
IJW is correct - you cant use the Star Engines for a "super ram" move. Maximum you can get is S10 (7 for a range of 21"+ as you can never get exactly 24", +2 for armour, +1 for a tank).

My issue with the new rules is that the net effect on the Falcon is too great. No doubt it was overpowered in 4th, mainly due to it being near-impossible to kill, but it's been weakened in three ways:

First: it's less survivable. Even with a 4+ save its twice as likely to go down to a penetrating hit.

Second: it's far less effective as a firepower source. Effectivly it has 1/3 the firepower it used to, only being at full effect if it moves <6". Fire Prisms are far better as gunships.

Thirdly: its no longer scoring, and as a transport it usually carries aspect warriors, which arent scoring either. Making it less useful as a transport.

The Wave Serpent may not be as tough, but as a transport it has capacity, and is cheap enough such that it's expendable in favour of the cargo.

zeqe
30-05-2008, 17:58
what the frell... is no one reading this?! I've never heard of this before, are you absolutely positive about this? If this is the case then I'm really excited about my skimmers in 5th, and suddenly Falcons and Fire Prisms make a bit more sense...

You know I was thinking about it the other day, and while it was a nerf, I sort of thought about how SMF was if you move more than 12" and the fact that normal tracked vehicles move up to 12", and I realized: well if they were to differentiate between Skimmers Moving Fast and a tracked vehicle moving pretty fast, then they'd need to ensure the Skimmer does in fact move faster, otherwise it doesn't really make sense to gain such a save considering that moving 7"+ isn't moving faster than a tracked vehicle. So I figured that the new SMF rule does really make sense. And now that they've made it so that Skimmers don't get downed after moving at such speed then it suddenly become worth it.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

I can assure you that fast skimmers that don't move flat out settle to the ground comfortably and become bunkers. If you move flat out to get the 4+ cover save prepare to form an impact crater.

Vaktathi
30-05-2008, 19:50
First: it's less survivable. Even with a 4+ save its twice as likely to go down to a penetrating hit. The average number of lascannon shots required to successfully killing a Falcon with the new damage table and a 4+ save with a BS4 lascannon only went down by .006 or 1/166.6, meaning for all intents and purposes they will remain the same. If something ignore the cover save, then of course they become half as hard to kill (in which case they are about has hard to kill as a Land Raider with a Lascannon) but that mobile cover save counts for a lot.

The Autocannon remains identical, and S6 weapons have no chance any more unless its already immobile and weaponless assuming it has Vectored Engines.

Sure you can penetrate it, but even on a penetrating hit, with a kitted falcon its only going down 1/9 times, and not at all on a glance, and it fully ignores 50% of its with that cover save.

Even so, the falcon currently is far too difficult to kill, reducing the longevity of holofield tanks is needed (even if it didn't happen)



Second: it's far less effective as a firepower source. Effectivly it has 1/3 the firepower it used to, only being at full effect if it moves <6". Fire Prisms are far better as gunships. Fire Prism's should be, thats their role. And *every* tank is getting hit just as hard when it comes to mobile firepower, look at the relative value of Chimeras, Predators or LR Exterminators as mobile gun platforms.




Thirdly: its no longer scoring, and as a transport it usually carries aspect warriors, which arent scoring either. Making it less useful as a transport. However it can still *contest* objectives and table quarters. this is not an issue that relates only to the Falcon. The Imperial Guard, Tau, and most SM armies as well as Chaos Marines are being it similarly hard.



The Wave Serpent may not be as tough, but as a transport it has capacity, and is cheap enough such that it's expendable in favour of the cargo. Exactly, and in fact the Wave Serpent actually gets *harder* to kill in 5th Ed with S9 or higher weapons due to the cover save if it has Vectored Engines, even being penetrated.

AventineCrusader
30-05-2008, 20:12
The average number of lascannon shots required to successfully killing a Falcon with the new damage table and a 4+ save with a BS4 lascannon only went down by .006 or 1/166.6, meaning for all intents and purposes they will remain the same. If something ignore the cover save, then of course they become half as hard to kill (in which case they are about has hard to kill as a Land Raider with a Lascannon) but that mobile cover save counts for a lot.

And it's even harder to kill since now that they have a save they can be Fortuned. A 4+ re-rollable cover save is pretty sweet.

Homer S
30-05-2008, 20:18
And until a 5th ed FAQ comes out for the rulebook, Farseers can cast on/inside the transport again!

Homer

Stezerok
30-05-2008, 23:19
Fire Prism's should be, thats their role. And *every* tank is getting hit just as hard when it comes to mobile firepower, look at the relative value of Chimeras, Predators or LR Exterminators as mobile gun platforms.


while valid, we are technically looking at Falcons vs Waveserpents... ;)

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

zeqe
31-05-2008, 00:13
And until a 5th ed FAQ comes out for the rulebook, Farseers can cast on/inside the transport again!

Homer

The 5th edition FAQ is already out.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/40k/Eldar.pdf

Apparently the window-licking mindwar is back.

Sarigar
31-05-2008, 00:22
Mind War is a shooting attack per the FAQ and there is no way to shoot out of a Falcon.

However, Doom, Guide and Fortune appear to be able to be cast from inside a Falcon/Wave Serpent.

With the change for Farseers inside tanks, you don't even have to worry about moving fast should you utelize this tactic. Just ensure they get behind cover and shoot away. Falcons can still be very durable with this tactic.

As others have posted, Star Engines will not help at all with ramming. Ramming is done int he movement phase while Star Engines are utelized in the shooting phase.

Halfpast_Yellow
31-05-2008, 00:51
The way I explain it now is that Waveserpents are the premier transport of the army, carrying squads to the front/all corners of the battlefield.

The Falcon is more of a backfield gunship that can pick up your squads that get into trouble, or perhaps drop off a small squad of Firedragons or X at some point.

It's not really much of a head-to-head contest between the stats of the two, but more of a contest between roles you want in your army.

A Waveserpent isn't as good as a Falcon at firing from range, and a Falcon can't take as many troops upfield and will suffer more from being picked on by Meltas and similar weaponry if it tries.

Sure Prisms are also great firepower ships and overlap Falcons in that support shooting role, but I've already had my Falcon win/save me a game by rescuing a scoring unit of Rangers facing certain death.

If you read the unit entries in the Eldar Codex it pretty much spells out how to use each type of grav tank on the field.

Ianos
31-05-2008, 08:25
Been trying to explain both here and in other forums that skimmers continue to be as viable as ever. We just have to change weapon/system configs now to match the list we are playing. We finally have tanks with clear roles and upgrades that are all useful to a point.

Vaktathi
31-05-2008, 09:04
Been trying to explain both here and in other forums that skimmers continue to be as viable as ever. We just have to change weapon/system configs now to match the list we are playing. We finally have tanks with clear roles and upgrades that are all useful to a point.

what wasn't useful or clear about their roles before?

Cypher
31-05-2008, 10:27
The average number of lascannon shots required to successfully killing a Falcon with the new damage table and a 4+ save with a BS4 lascannon only went down by .006 or 1/166.6, meaning for all intents and purposes they will remain the same. If something ignore the cover save, then of course they become half as hard to kill (in which case they are about has hard to kill as a Land Raider with a Lascannon) but that mobile cover save counts for a lot.
Under old rules, a penetrating hit on a Falcon had a 1/36 chance of scoring destroyed (with VE and holofields). That's now 1/9 with the same kitout, plus a 4+ save sometimes. Granted, they are better vs glancings as all vehicles are, but as AV12 vehicles they're going to get penetrated often enough that it'll count.

Vaktathi
31-05-2008, 11:04
Under old rules, a penetrating hit on a Falcon had a 1/36 chance of scoring destroyed (with VE and holofields). That's now 1/9 with the same kitout, plus a 4+ save sometimes. Granted, they are better vs glancings as all vehicles are, but as AV12 vehicles they're going to get penetrated often enough that it'll count. True on all counts, however assuming they get a 4+ save for moving fast or being in terrain, their survivability remains unchanged for all intents an purposes in terms of the average number of BS4 lascannon (1/166 higher chance) Missile launcher (1/333 higher chance) or autocannon (no difference) hits required to kill them, and makes weapons like mutli-lasers far less ineffective.

yes they can be penetrated and go kaboom, but given their drastic increase in survivability to glancing hits and S6 weaponry, and the ability to reduce their penetrating destruction chances from 1/3 (average pen, no cover save) to 1/18 (holofield/VE pen w/4+ cover save) and can be fortuned (fortuned 4+ cover save means identical chance of destruction on a pen to current glance chance), I don't think that particular aspect should be what one looks at for the most part in looking at the difference between the falcon and wave serpent, rather look at the incredible boost the wave serpent got on average.

ScytheSwathe
31-05-2008, 12:49
Been trying to explain both here and in other forums that skimmers continue to be as viable as ever. We just have to change weapon/system configs now to match the list we are playing. We finally have tanks with clear roles and upgrades that are all useful to a point.

Hear hear!


what wasn't useful or clear about their roles before?
The fact that the falc simply was the best. 9 S6+ shots a turn, could make it better than a prism at shooting, Holos made it more reliable as a transport (even if it could only move 6 models). Now their roles are more defined, Prism is gunship, Falcon is lesser gunship, with emergency transport capability. WS is transport (though there is another thread at the moment discussing its possible role as antitank).

Mandragola
31-05-2008, 12:56
Right now there's a big IF here.

If you need to go 12" to get the save, and you need to go 12" to be destroyed by an immobilised result, then skimmer use will change pretty drastically.

Wave serpents will probably burn towards the enemy with vectored engines and cheap guns. Good at getting your cargo there but not for much else afterwards.

Falcons can't fire and get the save, so they are just ordinary tanks. They can have holo fields but will be quite killable.

Hammerheads will rule all. Disruption pod, going slow so can fire all guns and not killed when immobilised. Win.

zeqe
31-05-2008, 18:24
Right now there's a big IF here.

If you need to go 12" to get the save, and you need to go 12" to be destroyed by an immobilised result, then skimmer use will change pretty drastically.

There's no IF here at all. You have to go over 12 to get the 4+ save, and you have to go over 12 to get destroyed by immobilised. It's under the skimmer section in the 5E rules in black and white. Anyone within driving range of a GW store can tell you this as 5E rulebooks are now open for customer browsing.

Znail
31-05-2008, 21:56
IJW is correct - you cant use the Star Engines for a "super ram" move. Maximum you can get is S10 (7 for a range of 21"+ as you can never get exactly 24", +2 for armour, +1 for a tank).

My issue with the new rules is that the net effect on the Falcon is too great. No doubt it was overpowered in 4th, mainly due to it being near-impossible to kill, but it's been weakened in three ways:

First: it's less survivable. Even with a 4+ save its twice as likely to go down to a penetrating hit.

Second: it's far less effective as a firepower source. Effectivly it has 1/3 the firepower it used to, only being at full effect if it moves <6". Fire Prisms are far better as gunships.

Thirdly: its no longer scoring, and as a transport it usually carries aspect warriors, which arent scoring either. Making it less useful as a transport.

The Wave Serpent may not be as tough, but as a transport it has capacity, and is cheap enough such that it's expendable in favour of the cargo.

Why are you comparing the 5E Falcon with the 4E Falcon? What matters are how it compares to other vehicles.

First: The Falcon is still highly survivable compared to other tanks.

Second: Most other tanks have to be stationary to get the same firepower that the Falcon can get while moving 6".

Third: No vehicle is scoring in 5E, so why would you even bring it up when comparing the Falcon with other vehicles?

garinator
01-06-2008, 00:38
@znail

I think its quite obvious why we are comparing 4th and 5th ed eldar skimmers. We know the relative effectiveness of these tanks in 4th ed. We need to figure out how this will change in 5th and make changes to our style of play/army lists accordingly. Although point taken about comparing to other vehicles in 5th ed as well.

Also in general can I firmly state that the shuriken cannon is an ASSAULT 3 weapon. Therefore according to what has been said on the boards you will still be able to fire it if moving over 12" (although if this rumour is wrong then I retract).

Given this, you can take a wave serpent with twin scatter lasers and shuricanon , move 12" and still fire all weapons. Thats 7 str 6 shots which is quite cool compared to a falcon, which as an above poster suggested has effectively lost 1/3 of its shooting as any secondary armnament is useless to a falcon that is moving a lot. (heh unless you take an EML but firing a pulse laser and a s4 blast fire at the same target? doesnt seem very effective)

hmm it will be interesting to see what various opponents say when I start casting phsycic powers out of vehicles again. Do most people think that it will be reasonable to assert that because there is no mention of it in this ed's FAQ that we will be able to again? IF it works, mech eldar with 2 farseers just got a load better.

Mandragola
01-06-2008, 01:39
I doubt you will be able to do any psychic powers that are instead of firing a weapon, as there is no fire port. You can only do these things if you would otherwise have been able to shoot.

Other stuff though, like casting fortune or guide, you may well be able to do.

Stezerok
01-06-2008, 03:10
Also in general can I firmly state that the shuriken cannon is an ASSAULT 3 weapon. Therefore according to what has been said on the boards you will still be able to fire it if moving over 12" (although if this rumour is wrong then I retract).


lol then you'll need to figure out how to eat forum posts, because this has already been proven by numerous people to be false, and I'm still left wondering how people are still saying this. :rolleyes:

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Znail
01-06-2008, 04:28
@znail

I think its quite obvious why we are comparing 4th and 5th ed eldar skimmers. We know the relative effectiveness of these tanks in 4th ed. We need to figure out how this will change in 5th and make changes to our style of play/army lists accordingly. Although point taken about comparing to other vehicles in 5th ed as well.
You knew how 4E Falcons compared with other 4E vehicles, but 5E Falcons will be facing 5E vehicles, so how things were in 4E is not relevant. Or if this is too obvious then you can consider all the changes to opponents as well, so the reduction of firepower on enemy tanks, loss of scoring units etc as buffs to Eldar and Falcons and not only look at the changes to Falcons. Its a rather roundabout way of doing things thou.

Prophet009
01-06-2008, 15:52
You knew how 4E Falcons compared with other 4E vehicles, but 5E Falcons will be facing 5E vehicles, so how things were in 4E is not relevant. Or if this is too obvious then you can consider all the changes to opponents as well, so the reduction of firepower on enemy tanks, loss of scoring units etc as buffs to Eldar and Falcons and not only look at the changes to Falcons. Its a rather roundabout way of doing things thou.

PLEASE NOTE: I am a Tau player.

I generally agree with you Znail, in principle. That is, if your tanks' effectiveness was reduced in half, but other tanks' effectiveness was also reduced in half, then you come out even.

So here we are, a more relative comparison:

- SHOOTING: All gunships lost in this area. The Falcon is no worse off.

- SCORING: All vehicles that were previously scoring are not in 5ed.

- RESILIENCE: The damage table is identical for all vehicles, so no losses or gains there. However, skimmers paid a great deal of points for the ability to move fast and receive only glancing hits.

-- -- Mind you, some skimmers abused this ability when combined with gear that allowed it to keep moving, and/or made it nearly impossible to destroy with glancing hits. The Falcon was one such tank.

-- -- In any case, skimmers received a nerf in the area of resilience that other vehicles did not. They did not get any cheaper as compensation either.

_____________________

- The only skimmers that should be doing relatively well, are those that can now benefit from being obscured or having cover saves in a manner that non-skimmers generally cannot, or that does not force them to sacrifice an integral part of what the vehicle does (e.g., shooting for gunships).

-- -- In other words, Tau vehicles should be alright, and possibly Dark Eldar vehicles as well. All other skimmers get nerfed.

Mandragola
01-06-2008, 17:55
It's massively over-simplifying the issue to say that all skimmers are less reslient, all of the time.

A hammerhead with a disruption pod looks like being the unkillable tank of 5th edition. It has a 4+ cover save against anyone outside of 12" without having to move fast, though it can still go 12" and fire its railgun if it wants to. It is never destroyed by being immobilised. It goes from where a glance destroyed it on a 5+ to now, where a penetrate destroys it on a 5+. It now has a 4+ save, so half the chance of being killed by a penetrate in 5th as a glance in 4th. It still gets a 4+ save to allow it to keep firing if it gets stunned, shaken or weapons destroyed. And people say it's a nerf.

People who have the book are telling us that skimmers don't get their 4+ save unless they go over 12", and also can't crash if going under 12". Essentially they are a lot like ordinary vehicles now. Fundamentally it's still going from killed by a glance on a 5+ to killed on a penetrate on a 5+, which is the same apart from that people need to get penetrating hits now. Loads of the weapons people currently use to target eldar skimmers are now almost useless - all the necron destroyers, autocannons and missile pods that work so well if all you really need is a glance, now look a lot worse than using a proper lascannon.

The real nerf is not in toughness, which stays relatively similar (tougher against some things and weaker against other) but the defensive weapon nerf and the change to only troops as scoring. You also have to consider things like the response move and casualty removal rules, which are bad news for harlies. T

The falcon is tons worse in 5th not because it's easier to kill, but because it goes from an invulnerable gunship carrying a godlike unit to a near-invulnerable but non-shooting and non-scoring tank carrying a pretty average non-scoring squad. The combo doesn't work any more, though fire dragons still do of course.

I think wave serpents win out because the changes barely affect them. They are about as tough if not tougher, they can carry a lot of troops and the defensive weapon thing isn't really a big deal.

Prophet009
01-06-2008, 21:49
It's massively over-simplifying the issue to say that all skimmers are less reslient, all of the time.

Mandragola, I never said that all skimmers are less resilient, all of the time; I specifically said that Tau (and possibly DE) vehicles should be alright.

Furthermore, my point was to compare relationships in 4ed, to relationships in 5ed, as follows:

IN 4th EDITION:
- Non-skimmer vehicles have a certain level of resilience.
- Skimmer vehicles have a substantially greater level of resilience, and pay for it accordingly.

IN 5th EDITION:
- Non-skimmer vehicles have a certain level of resilience.
- Skimmer vehicles have a nearly identical level of resilience to non-skimmers, but STILL pay for the greater resilience they had in 4ed.


Please note that Tau vehicles are okay not because they are skimmers, but rather, because the way one of their upgrades now works (and this same upgrade was previously useless, I would add).

So yes, skimmers and non-skimmers are essentially on par now, but skimmers pay points for being better still.

______________________________________________

Now, for some MathHammer:

ASSUMPTIONS: The probabilities shown are for a Lascannon, and that the 1 hit was scored to the front of the vehicle. The 4ed Hammerhead was moving fast (as it always is, if it has the choice), and can reroll Immobilized results (thanks to an upgrade). The 5ed Hammerhead moves 6" and does not reroll Immobilized results (because the upgrade only applies for glancing hits, so is no longer worthwhile).

4ed HAMMERHEAD:
1.000 hit.
0.500 glancing hits (no penetrating hits possible)
0.222 results of "destroyed" (partly through Immobilized results)

5ed HAMMERHEAD (without Disruption Pod):
1.000 hit.
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating).
0.111 results of "destroyed"

5ed HAMMERHEAD (with Disruption Pod):
1.000 hit.
0.500 hits get through the cover save.
0.250 damaging hits (0.083 glancing, 0.167 penetrating).
0.056 results of "destroyed"

4ed Leman Russ:
1.000 hit.
0.333 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.167 penetrating).
0.111 results of "destroyed"

5ed Leman Russ:
1.000 hit.
0.333 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.167 penetrating).
0.056 results of "destroyed"

__________________

Well, that was actually quite surprising. I wish I was not too lazy to run the numbers for a Falcon, but that one is a bit more complicated.

Overall, not being destroyed from Immobilized results makes far more of a difference than I would have expected. Through this exercise, I have learned the following:

- Hammerheads will not be "THE" unkillable tank of 5ed, since other tanks will be tougher. However, with Disruption Pods it will be N-A-S-T-Y.

- Skimmers that could be destroyed by Immobilized results before may be just as good in 5ed as they were in 4ed, since they would either: A) not be destroyed by such a result, or B) Gain a 4+ cover save against all shots.

- Vehicles are actually getting pretty freaking tough! I certainly thought otherwise, until I did the math.


**NOTE: I am now quite curious as to how a Falcon with Holofields holds up to the competition.


Cheers!

Mandragola
01-06-2008, 23:25
Thanks for doing the maths. I think we end up agreeing that hammerheads will be tough, which doesn't have a lot to do with wave serpents of falcons. Disruption pods also fit on devilfish of course, and are probably worth it even though it will quite often have some people within 12" of it.

I think that one of the really significant things about the cover saves, however they are gained, is that it will be so much harder to prevent vehicles from shooting. The hammerhead isn't just harder to kill, it's much harder to suppress. That means it's going to shoot more enemy stuff dead.

I think that, if you're doing more mathhammer, it would be worth considering some other weapons. Curently, the preferred weapon to fire at eldar skimmers is often the autocannon and as a tau player I use a lot of missile pods rather than railguns against skimmers, since it feels like a waste of a railgun shot (which tend to go on wraithlords and the like, or submunition shots). Now that glancing hits can't kill vehicles, these weapons become at least half as effective against armour 12, even before any cover saves are taken. This goes double for wave serpents, since no weapon is able to penetrate them on better than a 5+. This probably changes the strategy to counter these vehicles a lot.

Prophet009
02-06-2008, 01:01
Well, as a Tau player, I can only hope that the FAQ does not nerf Disruption Pods. As long as that does not happen, Tau vehicles should be smiling.

But back to Eldar, and some more MathHammer. Here are a couple of different possibilities, all for 5ed:

ASSUMPTION: No cover saves are given below, since they can only be received by actually using cover (as with most other vehicles). All hits are to the front arc of the vehicles.

One S7 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.333 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.167 penetrating)
0.056 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.333 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.167 penetrating)
0.019 results of “destroyed”


One S8 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.111 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.037 results of “destroyed”


One S9 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.111 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.667 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.500 penetrating)
0.056 results of “destroyed”


One S10 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.111 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.833 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.667 penetrating)
0.074 results of “destroyed”

_______________
(some extra ones, for AP1)

One S8, AP1 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.167 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.083 results of “destroyed”


One S10, AP1 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.167 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.833 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.667 penetrating)
0.167 results of “destroyed”

___________________
___________________

For comparison purposes, here is some MathHammer for 4ed:

One S7 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines):
1.000 hit
0.333 glancing hits
0.056 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields, Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines):
1.000 hit
0.333 glancing hits
0.009 results of “destroyed”


One S8 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines):
1.000 hit
0.500 glancing hits
0.083 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields, Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines):
1.000 hit
0.500 glancing hits
0.014 results of “destroyed”


One S9 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines):
1.000 hit
0.500 glancing hits
0.083 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields, Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines):
1.000 hit
0.667 glancing hits
0.019 results of “destroyed”


One S10 Hit:
Wave Serpent (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 glancing hits
0.083 results of “destroyed”

Falcon (with Holofields and Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.833 glancing hits
0.023 results of “destroyed”


__________________
Also, note that, for comparison purposes, the following numbers would result in 5ed for a Falcon without Holofields:

One S8 Hit:
Falcon (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.500 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.333 penetrating)
0.111 results of “destroyed”


One S9 Hit:
Falcon (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.667 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.500 penetrating)
0.167 results of “destroyed”


One S10 Hit:
Falcon (with Spirit Stones):
1.000 hit
0.833 damaging hits (0.167 glancing, 0.667 penetrating)
0.222 results of “destroyed”

__________________
MATHEMATICAL DISCLAIMER: I have intentionally ignored the chance of destroying a vehicle by getting Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized results.



So as we can see, the Falcon will no longer be ungodly resilient (although, of course, not everyone purchased expensive Vectored Engines for their vehicles in 4ed, which would change the math considerably different for Falcons).

However, it will be as resilient as a Hammerhead, roughly.

dwnhmcntryboy
02-06-2008, 05:31
Here is a question involving both skimmers. Skimmer rules in 5th Edition say at the end of movement a skimmer must land, it cannot hover and if over terrain it must now take a deadly terrain test. However in the assault a vehicle section is say that you may assault the Clear base, hull or both. So... how does that work?

Also if I have to land, does that mean I can no longer disembark and shoot under my Skimmer? I ask this because in the shooting Rules for line of sight it states that if you shoot over, through or UNDER terrain the opponent gets a cover save. Do I land and block shooting or can we shoot under but give the opponent a coversave?

It also says that if a skimmer is wrecked that it stays a hovering flaming mass. Land and don't hover or land and do hover?? I'm confused.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 07:58
Skimmer rules in 5th Edition say at the end of movement a skimmer must land...It doesn't land per se, it just can't hover "high" like it did in 4th edition.


However in the assault a vehicle section is say that you may assault the Clear base, hull or both. So... how does that work?Move assaulting units into contact with the base, hull, or both. What's the problem? Only small skimmers will normally have people getting into B2B with they're base.


I land and block shooting or can we shoot under but give the opponent a coversave?You give a cover save.


It also says that if a skimmer is wrecked that it stays a hovering flaming mass.That's only if the base isn't removable.

EDIT: Back on topic, I think cheap Wave Serpents can make remarkable ram vehicles. They get +3 (12 armor and tank) and can move up to 36"! At 21" they're already hitting at S10... And if they're ramming something wussy like an ork trukk they're only taking a S7 hit back!

graveaccomplice
02-06-2008, 09:36
EDIT: Back on topic, I think cheap Wave Serpents can make remarkable ram vehicles. They get +3 (12 armor and tank) and can move up to 36"! At 21" they're already hitting at S10... And if they're ramming something wussy like an ork trukk they're only taking a S7 hit back!


Just one catch to this. You only get the extra 12" from star engines during the shooting phase. If I recall, you have to declare your ramming during the move phase.

dwnhmcntryboy
02-06-2008, 10:49
It doesn't land per se, it just can't hover "high" like it did in 4th edition.

I don't know about that because if I am immobilized then I have to land with vectored engines and am therefore no longer hovering. So when they say we have to land without hovering at the end of our movement I would think it would apply in the same terms as immobilized except that we would not count as immobilized for the purposes of our holofields. Which would make sense that we have vectored engines upgrade and Tau have the landing gear upgrade.


Move assaulting units into contact with the base, hull, or both. What's the problem? Only small skimmers will normally have people getting into B2B with they're base.

No problem at all just needed a clarification and forgot about vypers and jetbikes since I never use them.

Also this is on topic because it is a very important factor in deciding which Vehicle would be more useful, especially for how I play my army. Don't dismiss me just because I am new to the forums.

Movement in 5th edition is a much more important tactic than it was in 4th.

zeqe
02-06-2008, 11:09
Re: "Land at the end of my movement phase"

It's hogwash, you simply must test for dangerous terrain if you begin or end in difficult terrain. Skimmers block LOS just like any other model now, if you can see under it you can see under it, if you can't you can't.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 17:53
You only get the extra 12" from star engines during the shooting phase.
I've never played that way, although the rule isn't particularly clear on when the movement occurs. Besides, you max out the charge strength at 21", so any further and you're just hurting yourself more...

dwnhmcntryboy
02-06-2008, 18:05
Re: "Land at the end of my movement phase"

It's hogwash, you simply must test for dangerous terrain if you begin or end in difficult terrain. Skimmers block LOS just like any other model now, if you can see under it you can see under it, if you can't you can't.

Wow. Very helpful thanks for the input and pointing out the area of skimmer movement in the 5th edition rule book I missed. Not to mention the supporting arguments to back up your reason was astounding and very provacative. I wish I had put as much effort into my research as you did, you are truly a scholar. "Hogwash" says it all doesn't it?:wtf:

Meriwether
02-06-2008, 18:22
Wow. Very helpful thanks for the input and pointing out the area of skimmer movement in the 5th edition rule book I missed. Not to mention the supporting arguments to back up your reason was astounding and very provacative. I wish I had put as much effort into my research as you did, you are truly a scholar. "Hogwash" says it all doesn't it?:wtf:

Wow. Could you be more of a jerk, newcomer? Or are you just trying to make sure no one will be nice to you in the future? :rolleyes:

Meir