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Gralph!?!
31-05-2008, 00:49
now, in regards to the 2 threads of arguements that are pretty much the same thing (would be best to simply merge them or close one or something) i am throwing down the gauntlet but i would like to get the choppa's and the basha's and yell out a challenge to all out there.

i wanna know what the success rate is for the orc army as a whole. as stated before with the 2 threads, there is one large camp of people saying the orc are is fundamentaly useless in a game and thus can never truly be a competative army in a tournament due to animosity. so if at all possible i would like the members who look upon this thread to remember or write down how many units are in the army and how many results of a 1 you roll in the game and the same for a roll of a 6 and tell us if it was useful for the unit that got it?

also when i get around to it, i shallwrite up a tactica of the orcs and gobbos as i do have alot of experiance with them (i have used them around 5-6 years now) and i can explain the better ways of using them.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
31-05-2008, 00:50
You expect honest results gave?

Your optimism is as misplaced as my painting skills! (I know someones got them....)

sephiroth87
31-05-2008, 01:03
Also, a lot of the negative people build lists without the end runs around animosity and leadership. The book gives you several ways to combat animosity, namely black orcs, black orc big bosses, chariots, single trolls, and giants. There are also immune to psych units like savage boars and squig herds that provide you with only one test to take when trying to charge (animosity).

They might want to prove a point and use dishonest results, also.

The positive people might alter their results simply because they also have an axe to grind.

The only real way to get results is to take YOUR particular list to a tournament, play it, and post how well you do with battle reports. That's probably a better way to see how it performs against the statistics that they smear on the wall every time someone wants to talk about the army.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
31-05-2008, 01:05
Or, perhaps people could just accept the primary point of the game is to have fun with your friends, not to go to a tournament, wave your little chap at each other and be desperate to be the biggest.....

Just saying...Stuff the tournament scene.

sephiroth87
31-05-2008, 01:10
The primary point for a lot of these people who won't shut up about how bad they are want that kind of evidence. I'm perfectly fine beating on my close circle of friends with my orcs and they've done fine for a pretty long time now.

spiderhaiku
31-05-2008, 01:16
Or, perhaps people could just accept the primary point of the game is to have fun with your friends

The main reason i play orcs right there!

Animosity is great fun that can have you laughing in frustration when they stop dead at a crucial moment/ run away from the battle when no enemies are in sight or when you get that extra few inches while your opponent dances around your charge zone.

Anyone not playing orcs because they aren't super competative shouldn't be playing them in the first place IMO

Heretic Burner
31-05-2008, 01:40
i wanna know what the success rate is for the orc army as a whole.

Well you assert you've looked at other threads but I'll repeat the findings for you here. Statistically speaking (from the largest compiled tournament information available) O&G are the very least competitive army in the game. This information, including the very same methodology, is exactly the same used by GW themselves. As a measurement using that observed by Jervis (as revealed on the old Warhammer forums) the armies can be based on observed placements vs expected placements - often termed the "ABM" score. O&G score around 59 last I've seen where 100 is the average, expected score for a balanced army. This is last. For reference the second last placement is Dark Elves at around 66 whild a Wood Elf army hovers around 133 (hence performing well above what should be expected).

As results go they are about as honest as you're going to get. This is what "the success rate is of the orc army as a whole", or at least the very best that there is to offer. I hope it answered your question.

Arguleon-veq
31-05-2008, 02:46
Where can I find stats like that? It seems like it would be an intersting read. Jervis has changed his tone though, in a recent WD he was trying to claim that there are no power lists or builds and that your list selection will help you win about 1 in 10 games nomatter what you choose. He said he based it on stats. My ****. It was the biggest pile of rubbish ive ever read, I agree with his whole having fun is the main issue stance but hes just lying in that article to try and make a point with the 'have fun/do what you want' thing. I dont know if he honestly believes it or not, if he does, then he is an idiot.

Ive only had a few games with my Orcs and Gobs so far;

1500 Points vs Blood Dragons [Old VC Army] - Massacre for the O&G.
2000 Points vs Dwarfs - Massacre for the O&G.
2000 Points vs New VC - Massacre for the O&G.
2000 Points vs High Elves - Solid Victory for the High Elves.
1500 Points vs High Elves - Massacre for the O&G.

The last 4 I have BatReps for in the BatRep board. That loss to HE was also only my second Fantasy Loss. My other being my Dogs of War getting massacred by VC.

Dranthar
31-05-2008, 08:53
I'll just say three things;

1. I've yet to lose a game due to animosity rolls.

2. I can recall several instances when a 6 on animosity put my opponent in a disadvantageous position.

3. My all goblin army has been thoroughly enjoyable every time I've played them.

StormCrow
31-05-2008, 09:42
I'd say animosity has screwed me hard and won me games in equal measure, goes with the territory of having tough and cheap infantry. If you can't hack it then go play some wussy race that doesn't like fighting ALL THE TIME. My orc army isn't a tournament style army and none of my opponents are win crazy psycho's. Based on that I'd say my orcs have a 50-50 success rate; usually performing best in lower points match ups.

In closing; Orcs are the biggest and the strongest and therefore the best tournament army.

FuSs
31-05-2008, 10:43
Orcs are the most funny army to play with and against. Period.
On the other hand they are the most unreliable army too. Thus they are not the choice of tournament players.

Ofc you can win with O&G but only a few bad rolls and you lose even if your enemy is worse general.
Tournament players dont drive 200 miles to lose against people they dont like only because the dice dont like them. Instead they take armies which are immune to psycho and reliable.

I'll stick with my Orcs and Goblins. They are not as smart as my Blood Axe's but they are green nonetheless ;)

Gralph!?!
31-05-2008, 12:33
okay, i have calmed down now, i am thionking clearly after a good nights sleep. now i do agree with alot of the thoughts here about hvaing fun and all that andhave a guess.... i do have fun with my orcs, they do stupid stuff often and it makes me giggle. now the reason for this thread is because i would like to see more orcy builds and the like as i thinnk they are a very strong army (in the right hands like all armies) and can cause problems for most.

oh wel, fair enough then with all of this.

Heretic Burner
31-05-2008, 17:15
now the reason for this thread is because i would like to see more orcy builds and the like as i thinnk they are a very strong army (in the right hands like all armies) and can cause problems for most.


You would be far better off taking that to the tactics board. There are multiple threads there that you'll be able to look at.

isidril93
31-05-2008, 21:16
animosity isnt a large limiting factor
there is a 1 in 6 chance that you role squabble and a 1 in 6 chance that you roll waaagh

some units dont have animosity such as warmachine crew, units of 4 or less, black orcs, trolls, giants and it really does add an orcy sense

if it wasnt for animosity orcs would play quite a bit like chaos mortals

Fredmans
31-05-2008, 22:33
I have a near perfect 50-50 ratio in my gaming group. I find O&G powerful enough. I do not find animosity in itself to be a game-breaker, but I find myself in trouble facing fear and terror causing armies. The combination of animosity, stupidity (the troll lover I am), fear and terror strains my dice to their limit. It is nigh impossible to make all those rolls. That is not to say that I do not enjoy it. Actually, I find it impossible not to enjoy playing O&G.

/Fredmans

Shamfrit
31-05-2008, 22:42
Firstly. You assume that the success rate with Orcs & Goblins will be low. Of course, ina tournament environment the broken and subjective lists of course will win. That's the nature of a competitive league, you take the tried and tested of the countering underdog. In this case, people think 'Animosity? Goblins? Low Leadership?' and suddenly Green Skins are not just cast aside, but automatically discarded.

Just as every Skaven gets his day, so do the Goblins and Orcs. All it would take is a short spate of serious play testing with assorted Green Skin lists against the current Top Tier army lists and somebody, somebody good or cunning (and da cunning is brutally cunning!) will construct a list that works. I am sick, yes, sick of people automatically assuming the worst.

I know I speak subectively, but, in the last six games as a Green Skin I've won all six, against three daemon armies, a vampire count player and two Empire lists. Why? Because I can deal with Animosity, even with bad rolls. Why? Because flexibility and balance is my game, as it should be every Green Skin general. I'm not brilliant, not in the least, but it's taken me a very short time indeed to get to grips with such devilish wonders as 'The Spider Riders always roll three 1's in a row' phenomenon, and the wonder that is 'Blind Goblin War Machine Crew.'

I've had 20 Night Goblins with HW & Shield and Nets hold up a Tomb King and 30 skeletons for 4 turns before. I've Waaagh'd just enough to get fanatics off on turn one (my favourite, favourite event of all) and you know what? Even when that game winning charge rolls a 1 at the start of the turn, or the fanatics go...err, which way is dis? and slam into my own lines, it's fun. That's not to say the army is bad but fun, it's very, very viable if only people would cast aside this pathetic stigma and actually explore the list on a serious and broader level.

Lord_Byron
01-06-2008, 06:06
I love my O&G. No other army I play can get me back into the hobby easier than the orcs. Just looking at their awesome green goodness on my bookshelf can get me in the mood for painting, modeling or gaming. True of all armies, especially so for orcs.

I've been playing a long time. I've got alot of armies. I own Orcs, Ogres, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Lizardmen, Chaos and enough elves to proxy any elf or human army permutation out there. With all my experience with all these different forces I can say definitively that animosity cripples orcs. It's all well and good to play for fun, and I can take losing a game on a few bad rolls, but the honest truth is that orcs are at a serious disadvantage due to animosity. More so than any other army's "weakness" disadvantages them. Overwhelmingly so. It is really a serious flaw.

When I play orcs and goblins, the only thing worse that can happen to me than rolling a 1 for animosity is rolling a 6 for animosity. Sure black orcs can quell a squabble, but they can do nothing to mitigate the 'we'll show 'em' results. Squabbles have lost me games, I've even had a game where I squabbled with 2/3 of my force in the 4 rounds they managed to survive... but We'll show 'em has lost me many more games overall. Any opponent who has ever played against orcs before, and most of them who haven't, know how easy it is to take an orc line apart with a bait unit. Hammer units are redirected away from combat, blocking their support units from doing their job. Flanks of anvil units are offered to the enemy to exploit. Fast cavalry are so unreliable 3 units need to be taken to make sure at least one of them can move as intended. Animosity, as it is, is ruinous to the orcs.

Even if you, as an orc player, can reconcile yourself to the horrible things animosty can do to ruin your game, and just play for fun whether you win or lose... have a care to the amount of fun your opponent is having while your forces are too disfunctional to put up a proper fight. My gaming buddies appreciate a good, hard fought game more than an unavoidably easy victory. Sometimes orcish animosity ruins the game for them. that's something to think about.

Orcs have a very steep learning curve. It can be overcome. Orcs can be played strong. But it takes a lot more care, planning and luck to do it. And even then animosity can still lose a game for you despite all the hard work you've put into it. All the things Heretic Burner says about the orcs are harsh, but they're true.

That said, I'm still playing my orcs more often than any of my other armies. Not because I want the challenge, or because of some abstract sense of accomplishment from pulling off a victory with my greenskins, but because the orc army appeals to me and interests me more consistently than any other. Simple greenskin preference. And I'm going to keep playing them. But believe me, I would not mind a new army book or a dark elf style animosity re-write at all. No. Wouldn't mind that at all.

Storak
01-06-2008, 07:35
animosity isnt a large limiting factor
there is a 1 in 6 chance that you role squabble and a 1 in 6 chance that you roll waaagh

you seriously think that troops behaving randomly in one THIRD of your turns, isn t a serious disadvantage?


if it wasnt for animosity orcs would play quite a bit like chaos mortals

NOBODY is asking for animosity to be removed completely!

we are asking for the POSITIVE effect (we ll get them, waagh), to be changed, so that it isn t a disadvantage in disguise.

we are asking for away, to stop our cavalry from failing to charge when in charge range. (or to wheel into a stupid direction because of a 6!)

we are asking for O&G to perform COMPETATIVELY. we don t want an army that is funny for our opponents!

we are asking for some control over random factors. most players seem not to enjoy an army that performs great when the dice allow, but horrible if they don t. a game of warhammer takes slightly too much time, to waste it for an experiment in randomness...

FuSs
01-06-2008, 09:57
Our two (three) main weaknesses are:
1. Psychology
2. Animosity
(3. Frenzy)

The answer to 1 is Savage Orcs which leads to problem 3.
The answer to 2 is Black Orcs which leads to casaulties thus you cant put them into expensive elite troops.
The answer to 3 is a cunning general and hopefully not too many eagles ;)

One of the best units we have are savage orc boar boys. Now if i could add a black orc into that unit it would be great but with D6 S5 hits i can easily lose 80 points and all my hitting power with one bad roll. Thus a BO is a no go for such a unit.

Another approach is the humble basic orc with a black orc leader. A nice reliable unit where quell animosity doesnt hurt that much. You still have the low leadership/psycho problem though.

We cant answer all our problems in one unit. The best thing to do is keep your stuff cheap and take them in multiples.


Units which have proven their worth for me:
Savage Orc Big Boss on Boar Chariot - great hitting power, immune to psycho and you dont have to spend a precious special slot on a chariot
Black Orc BSB /w spirit totem on a boar in a unit of 23 orc boys - our magic defense force
Goblin caddy on wolf chariot - another chariot without a special slot and even more magic defense
Wolf/Spider riders - cheap light cav. nuff said

Leogun_91
01-06-2008, 10:00
My O&G are competative and is about as good as my dwarfs (including the fact that I have good experience in playing with my dwarfs but not my O&G), and I have rolled much more 6s on my animosity rolls than 1s and getting the charge off when your not supposed to is fun the only bad thing I see about them is that I expect them to charge shorter than they do (after playing dwarfs so much).

Shimmergloom
01-06-2008, 10:01
you seriously think that troops behaving randomly in one THIRD of your turns, isn t a serious disadvantage?





There's no point in even bringing it up anymore. They GW yes men refuse to acknowledge that a 6 can ever hurt a greenskin unit.

They never wheel in front of your own troops. They never wheel to present their flank to calvary, they never move straight into woods never to return and black orcs never kill a single greenskin model during the entire game.

And we're at war with Eurasia.

Storak
01-06-2008, 10:07
My O&G are competative and is about as good as my dwarfs (including the fact that I have good experience in playing with my dwarfs but not my O&G), and I have rolled much more 6s on my animosity rolls than 1s and getting the charge off when your not supposed to is fun the only bad thing I see about them is that I expect them to charge shorter than they do (after playing dwarfs so much).

then you have not played enough battles! because in the long term, you will have as many 1s as 6s!!!!!

guys, it is a major problem, when the majority of arguments claiming that O&G are competitive contain a MAJOR logical error!

Shimmergloom
01-06-2008, 16:45
I think it's not a major problem for them because they are always just moving the unit straight ahead and not toward the nearest enemy, so they have no idea how bad the rule actually is.

Shamfrit
01-06-2008, 17:05
I think people are underestimating the power of Animosity.

Suddenly, your opponent is thinking, 'Ha! Your big unit of Black Orcs that are within 8" of my most fragile unit with my general and a mage can't do anything this turn...ha!' There I am, on the opposite side of the table thinking, 'Whoops! Over confident there, because I'm not your average defeatist Orc And Goblin Player.' Who subsequently proceeds to magically move the afore mentioned unit in question with his Shamans, (who effectively co-ordinate the rabble psionically, like Battle Meditation.)

Your opponent was not ready for that. He's based his entire assumptions on being able to move his troops next turn, of course, he's got scrolls, and dispel dice, but even with moderate luck and enough magic that Black Orc Boyz unit will reach home base, choppas raised high and roaring etc.

Don't any of you start on the 'miscast' 'failed roll' path because as we all know, every strategy, idea and tactics is prone to this, it's something that's automatically (or should be) assumed and doesn't need to be brought up.

This further bolsters my principle of balance. You need to play across all the turns and as somebody said before, always have a back up plan to play Orcs and Goblins effectively. Follow that up with determination and by getting involved with your Horde. By calling your boss a suitable and not too silly Boss Name. Roaring Waaagh!! at the start of your turn without any warning at all at the top of your lungs :evilgrin: And by enjoying playing it. This resemblance of snobbery about the 'humour' army having the hard time and being crippled by rules is entirely hogwash.

I presume people are forgetting about the awesome rule Size Matters? You've potentially (with correct deployment) negated Panic Tests in your army, or at least 50% of it, but of course, oh noes! I rolled a 1, I iz duuuuuumed!!1!

:rolleyes:

Shimmergloom
01-06-2008, 18:01
I think people are underestimating the power of Animosity.

Suddenly, your opponent is thinking, 'Ha! Your big unit of Black Orcs that are within 8" of my most fragile unit with my general and a mage can't do anything this turn...ha!' There I am, on the opposite side of the table thinking, 'Whoops! Over confident there, because I'm not your average defeatist Orc And Goblin Player.' Who subsequently proceeds to magically move the afore mentioned unit in question with his Shamans, (who effectively co-ordinate the rabble psionically, like Battle Meditation.)

Your opponent was not ready for that. He's based his entire assumptions on being able to move his troops next turn, of course, he's got scrolls, and dispel dice, but even with moderate luck and enough magic that Black Orc Boyz unit will reach home base, choppas raised high and roaring etc.

Don't any of you start on the 'miscast' 'failed roll' path because as we all know, every strategy, idea and tactics is prone to this, it's something that's automatically (or should be) assumed and doesn't need to be brought up.

This further bolsters my principle of balance. You need to play across all the turns and as somebody said before, always have a back up plan to play Orcs and Goblins effectively. Follow that up with determination and by getting involved with your Horde. By calling your boss a suitable and not too silly Boss Name. Roaring Waaagh!! at the start of your turn without any warning at all at the top of your lungs :evilgrin: And by enjoying playing it. This resemblance of snobbery about the 'humour' army having the hard time and being crippled by rules is entirely hogwash.

I presume people are forgetting about the awesome rule Size Matters? You've potentially (with correct deployment) negated Panic Tests in your army, or at least 50% of it, but of course, oh noes! I rolled a 1, I iz duuuuuumed!!1!

:rolleyes:

If you don't want any miscast talk started, then don't start with this nonsense about telepathically moving your units.

Unless you are playing someone who's never played vs greenskins then everyone knows what the waaagh! spell does and will never let you get it off unless you roll IF and the chances of a lvl 2 orc getting it off to begin with are not too great.

And unless you are still playing that same person who's never faced greenskins, then your opponent knows about the Waagh rule and that 6's will give you a D6 extra move and will keep his units back a bit anyway.

Not to mention the myriad of armies and units that won't care if your infantry gets an extra 3 inches of movement from the Waaagh! and still don't care if you manage to cast the Waaagh! spell.

Helbracht
01-06-2008, 18:06
Orcs and Goblins are fine and competitive (I have an O&G army). People are just upset because with the recent army releases (Vamps and Daemons), O&G players are having a hard time against them.

O&G are also a much more luck-based army than most. Some people are just unlucky and see it as their army's lack of "power".

Only major complaints I'd have about them are a few wonky magic items that have too specific a purpose to be useful on the whole.

Shamfrit
01-06-2008, 19:02
Orcs and Goblins are fine and competitive (I have an O&G army). People are just upset because with the recent army releases (Vamps and Daemons), O&G players are having a hard time against them.

O&G are also a much more luck-based army than most. Some people are just unlucky and see it as their army's lack of "power".

Only major complaints I'd have about them are a few wonky magic items that have too specific a purpose to be useful on the whole.

Da Shaman IS Spekinz Da Truth Boss!



Oh, Shimmergloom, somebody sounds like they miscast too often?

And I'd kindly refer you to the Little Waaagh spell which moves a unit, considerably easier to get and cast. Something opponents will need alot of dice to dispel, and imagine it on multiple shamans?

Magic is a valid tactic, despite it being reliant on dice rolls...but then, since you insist on disapproving of a dice roll idea, why are you even here? You may have noticed, Warhammer's a game of dice, and God does not play dice.

Shimmergloom
02-06-2008, 02:55
Da Shaman IS Spekinz Da Truth Boss!



Oh, Shimmergloom, somebody sounds like they miscast too often?

And I'd kindly refer you to the Little Waaagh spell which moves a unit, considerably easier to get and cast. Something opponents will need alot of dice to dispel, and imagine it on multiple shamans?

Magic is a valid tactic, despite it being reliant on dice rolls...but then, since you insist on disapproving of a dice roll idea, why are you even here? You may have noticed, Warhammer's a game of dice, and God does not play dice.

I do know it's a game of dice, which is why I know why am I going to pay for a character who won't be able to cast when his unit fails animosity?

And hand of gork is cast on a 9+, so unless you are using a great shaman then you can cast it at most 2 times a round with 3 dice. And unlike waaagh! it's a ranged spell, so the unit needs to also be in range.

so now let's look at the dice rolls involved for this 'tactic' to be valid.

First I have to roll for the spell. With a lvl 2 I have a 2 in 6 shot at getting it per shaman. So that's 2 rolls I need to make before the game starts for 2 shamans to get this spell.

Then I have to pass 2 animosity checks for the units the shamans are in. And they are going to need to be in units, because with a 24" ranged spell, you can't just hide behind a hill in the corner and expect to be in range when you need it.

Next I need to roll 3 dice and get a 9+ without a miscast. Then I need my opponent to not have scrolls or be able to dispel the spell.

If ALL THAT happens, then I need to be in range and if I am in range, I need to roll 2D6 and hope this is enough to get me in contact with what I want to charge. Oh and hope that the enemy has not landed an eagle in the middle of the table that my unit will be moving toward because it's the closest thing they can see.

So for each spell I need 5 dice rolls to go my way. For 2 shamans I would need 10 dice rolls to go my way. Just to get them cast one time.

Each subsequent turn I will need 4 rolls to go my way per spell.

That is not a valid tactic.

Jabroniville
02-06-2008, 08:30
Animosity can screw up the battle plans pretty bad at times (I remember my Boar Boyz failing it right next to the Miners who'd just shown up), but it can be equally good, and any good Orc player can easily adjust for Squabbles.

Plans:
-Instead of having one unit in a certain position, have two. Or three. Orc & Goblin units are CHEAP! At least ONE will charge in! And if one Squabbles, he can be ready to charge NEXT turn! You know how many people I've had overrun into a big fat Black Orc unit when they beat the Boyz? Stick some Spiders behind the Wolves, or a Pump Wagon somewhere.
-Fight like an Orc! No sissy castles or deftly-thought-out battle plans based off of counter-charging. Zig-zag, criss-cross, and flay your army out all over the battlefield! It's REALLY hard for the opponent to register what you're going to do when even YOU don't know who's going to hit and where on each turn.
-Tons of units don't Squabble. Pump Wagons, Giants, Black Orcs, etc. Use THEM if you're so afraid of Squabbling.
-Remember that Squabbling often isn't as bad as We'll Show 'Em is good. Squabbling just holds the units up for a turn, and often they'll get into combat anyways (several times I've had it pay off that a unit did nothing that turn; they ended up in charge range the next!), whereas We'll Show 'Em or "Waaaaugh!" declaration in one turn has put long-distance units right into charges. Everyone I fight swears out loud when I roll a "6" on Animosity for one unit, far more than they smile when one unit out of my 12 or 13 rolls a "1".