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Angels Wing
04-06-2008, 16:55
If old Zog rolls a 1,2,3 he Is treated as having a power weapon, he also has poisoned attacks.
So the question Is can he combine the two to have up to 9 attacks on the charge wounding anything on a 2+ with no armour save!?!:eek:

IJW
04-06-2008, 17:02
So the question Is can he combine the two to have up to 9 attacks on the charge
If he's charging he's not in combat and therefore rolls normally...

Angels Wing
04-06-2008, 17:59
If he's charging he's not in combat and therefore rolls normally...
Yeah but you get the Idea.....
:p

Angels Wing
05-06-2008, 17:23
Nobody got a clue over this one then?:wtf:

Reinnon
05-06-2008, 17:45
nothing saying he can't combine the two - have fun

Nurgling Chieftain
05-06-2008, 23:14
His attacks can potentially be both poisoned and ignore armour saves, no problem.

Gensuke626
05-06-2008, 23:47
actually, the core rules say that you can't combine the two. Zogwort naturally has the "Poisoned Attacks Special Weapon" via his nest of vipers. If he rolls a 1-3 in melee then he counts as being armed with a "Power Weapon Special Weapon." Since you can't combine two forms of special weapons in the same round of combat, you get to choose whether you wound on 2+ or ignore Armor saves.

That's how I understand it, and before anyone brings it up, Epidemius's rule doesn't factor into this as to why Zoggy should get poisoned power attacks because the nurgle minis have poison attacks normally, and when Epidemius tops out their poison weapons suddenly ignore armor saves as an additional special rule.

Meriwether
06-06-2008, 01:12
I was gonna say the same thing. You can't use two different weapon types in the same H2H phase to get two different benefits, so Zoggy can't be a 2+-wounding PW.

...so the question is, if he rolls a 1-3, can he choose which he gets or is he stuck with the PW?

Meri

Gensuke626
06-06-2008, 01:39
It says he counts as being armed with a PW, and since we know he has poisoned attacks, it's like having a PF and a PW, you get to choose which to use...

Technically he can also make barehanded attacks with neither bonus...

Templar_Victorious
06-06-2008, 01:44
Back then, Logan Grimnar could divide his attacks between power weapon and powerfist attacks, couldn't he? I remember something about it in an old WD.

Gensuke626
06-06-2008, 02:51
One problem with that logic Templar_Victorious...
Old Zogwort =/= Logan Grimnar

Nurgling Chieftain
06-06-2008, 03:34
Zogwort naturally has the "Poisoned Attacks Special Weapon" via his nest of vipers.That's not quite correct. All his attacks count as poisoned. He is not equipped with a poisoned weapon.

kendaop
06-06-2008, 03:44
Wait, wait, wait, wait........poisoned weapons wound on a 2+ in 5th ed?

Nurgling Chieftain
06-06-2008, 04:02
Wait, wait, wait, wait........poisoned weapons wound on a 2+ in 5th ed?
Poisoned weapons normally wound on a 4+, but some - like Zogwort's - get to wound on a 2+.

Klomster
06-06-2008, 11:18
Getting codex orks.

It sais that all Zogworts attacks are poisoned.

And the weirdboy table 1,2,3 sais he counts as being equipped with a power weapon.

So the vipers is filled with waagh energy and become powerweapons.

Makes sence too me! :p


I understand it as beeing D6 I 4 attacks with poison. Zogworts normal attacks with I 2 poison.
Then the attacks can become powerweapon.
It sais that the D6 attacks are additional to the normal ones so all could become power weapon, i think.

I love old Zogwort, he is so insanely cool, not too mention i he can turn popular characters like Abbadon, eldrad ulthran and Marneus calgar into squigs!

(Remember that the squig must retain his former personality, otherwise it wouldn't be as epicly awesome)

Meriwether
06-06-2008, 15:10
I just re-looked at the wording, and I have to agree. He is not armed with a power weapon and armed with a poisoned weapon. He is armed with a power weapon and all his attacks are poisonous. Nasty!

Meri

thanoson
07-06-2008, 07:13
Who says you can't combine special rules? Skulltaker and a broodlord disprove that.

StrikerFox
07-06-2008, 09:25
wow..okay, this IS a nest of vipers.. XD

all lameness aside, this is real tricky one, as im trying to rethink and reread all his rules.. nest of vipers says its wargear, but does that confer to only the d6 i4 atks? or ALL of his attacks.. because as gensuke said, i would think that it would, if anything, be treated seperatly.. but then again, that would just totally be awsome for us orks if he could possibly have 9 atks..wounding on 2 and being PW's...seems toooo good to be truue.. :P

Famder
07-06-2008, 09:58
Compare it to the 'Urty Syringe, which is also poisoned wargear. Its description specifically refers to it as a weapon. The nest of vipers does not, ergo the Nest of Vipers is not a weapon. It is no different than Ghaz's adamantine skull, which gives extra attacks and confers a special ability on the model.

Meriwether
07-06-2008, 13:55
I think that's the rub. Zogwort's nest of vipers is a special ability, not a weapon... Or at least that is the way it appears to me.

Meri

Natura
07-06-2008, 14:14
wow..okay, this IS a nest of vipers.. XD

all lameness aside, this is real tricky one, as im trying to rethink and reread all his rules.. nest of vipers says its wargear, but does that confer to only the d6 i4 atks? or ALL of his attacks.. because as gensuke said, i would think that it would, if anything, be treated seperatly.. but then again, that would just totally be awsome for us orks if he could possibly have 9 atks..wounding on 2 and being PW's...seems toooo good to be truue.. :P

Well the model dishing them out has a 6+ save and is an IC so can be singled out in CC. Whilst I love Old Zogwort, he's hardly a CC monster.

EDIT: Actually, does Furious Charge combine with Nest of Vipers? If so, he'd have I5 when charging, which is a bit more useful. Of course, when he gets PW, he'd be I4.

StrikerFox
07-06-2008, 21:50
Well the model dishing them out has a 6+ save and is an IC so can be singled out in CC. Whilst I love Old Zogwort, he's hardly a CC monster.

EDIT: Actually, does Furious Charge combine with Nest of Vipers? If so, he'd have I5 when charging, which is a bit more useful. Of course, when he gets PW, he'd be I4.


hehe true, hes not a tank... but still, just the thought... but see the whole part in his wargear "nest of vipers" that says "all his attacks".. does that mean "all" or just the ones for the wargear?? otherwise, i would say that his regular attacks get the pw if he gets it, and the d6 atks get the poison..
but yeah, if thats the case, then i would say furious charge only confers it bonus to his base stat line, and not the additional attacks.. as they are a wargear bonus.. but... of course... if he had a fist... then the furious charge str bonus would also apply......DAMN this is hard to rule!! XD

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
07-06-2008, 21:59
I would say all attacks get poisoned on a 2+ with power weaponsnot for any paticular reason I just think thats what it's supposed to be

kendaop
07-06-2008, 22:27
It says "ALL" his attacks wound on 2+'s, therefore, whether he's hitting you with a hammer, a pink salmon, or a chainsword, he will wound you on 2+. It just so happens to be that sometimes, he can even hit you with a power sword equivalent. Ergo, he can wound you on a 2+ with a weapon that ignores armor saves. No doubt about it.

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 22:38
Who says you can't combine special rules? Skulltaker and a broodlord disprove that.

Enlighten me, exactly how does a Broodlord and Skulltaker disprove the rulebook saying that two Special weapons may not be combined?

Remember to use exact quotes or you invalidate your arguement.

I'm mostly asking becuase I don't have the nid dex on me, and I haven't gotten the Demon Dex yet.

As far as Zogwort goes-
I'll admit that there is the possibility that zogwort gets 2+ power weapon attacks. Based on the 4th ed rules concerning PWs and MCs, I've come to the conclusion that Rules don't equal weapons unless they say "Counts as Being Equiped with..." since the MC can Rend but the PW can't but rending aside, the MC and the PW have the same effect against infantry.

When I get another crack at my FLGS copy of the 5th ed rules, I'll try to get back here.


It says "ALL" his attacks wound on 2+'s, therefore, whether he's hitting you with a hammer, a pink salmon, or a chainsword, he will wound you on 2+. It just so happens to be that sometimes, he can even hit you with a power sword equivalent. Ergo, he can wound you on a 2+ with a weapon that ignores armor saves. No doubt about it.

This is faulty logic. As I said, I'm waiting till I can see a copy of 5e till I make a judgement, but if the rulebook basically says "If you Can make Poisoned Attacks, Rending Attacks, Or Power Weapon Attacks, you must choose one" then it's not legal. If, however, the Rulebook says "If you have multiple weapons that grant special rules (ie, A Poisoned Weapon and a Power weapon) then you may only use one." then you you get 2+ power weapon attacks.

thanoson
07-06-2008, 23:13
I never said anything about combining special weapons. I said special rules.

Broodlord has rending attacks AND his attacks count as PW's. Skulltaker has a power weapon that rends, on a 4+ and instakills if he scores a rend.

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 23:26
I never said anything about combining special weapons. I said special rules. Then you've missed the point of the arguement. No one disputed that you can't stack special rules. The two arguements here are "Can you stack nest of Vipers with Wyrdboy power weapon?" to which the response was "No because you can't use two special weapons."

The rebuttal to that was "Nest of Vipers is not a Weapon." which is the current arguement.


Broodlord has rending attacks AND his attacks count as PW's. Skulltaker has a power weapon that rends, on a 4+ and instakills if he scores a rend.I asked for quotes and you give me paraphrases...*sigh*

As it is, all I can say is "If the Brood Lord is armed with a Rending weapon and counts as being equipped with a Power Weapon, then by RAW, he must choose between the two unless he has a special rule that says he has a Rending Power Weapon or has a 'natural rending attack' and is equiped with a power weapon."

For Skulltaker, obviously thats a hellblade of some description that grants all of those abilities. Since it's a single weapon with multiple properties, he gets to use all of those abilities and bringing it up is moot in this arguement.

Natura
07-06-2008, 23:41
Then you've missed the point of the arguement. No one disputed that you can't stack special rules. The two arguements here are "Can you stack nest of Vipers with Wyrdboy power weapon?" to which the response was "No because you can't use two special weapons."

The rebuttal to that was "Nest of Vipers is not a Weapon." which is the current arguement.
I asked for quotes and you give me paraphrases...*sigh*

As it is, all I can say is "If the Brood Lord is armed with a Rending weapon and counts as being equipped with a Power Weapon, then by RAW, he must choose between the two unless he has a special rule that says he has a Rending Power Weapon or has a 'natural rending attack' and is equiped with a power weapon."

For Skulltaker, obviously thats a hellblade of some description that grants all of those abilities. Since it's a single weapon with multiple properties, he gets to use all of those abilities and bringing it up is moot in this arguement.

Quote time! Direct from 5th Ed:

"Two different special weapons

When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the attack bonus for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)"

So that's what we're working with in 5th ed.

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 23:44
Ooo...you have the book close enough. Cool.

Now go and look up if it just needs to be a "Poisoned Attack." or if Poisoned Attacks and Poisoned Weapon are two completely different terms.

thanoson
07-06-2008, 23:49
Ok, this is for the broodlord. INHUMAN Strength- So powerful is the broodlord that all wounds caused by it ignore armor saves in the same manner as power weapons. I did not want to put my clothes back on and walk out to the car, but there you go.:)

edit: Btw, I'm responding to you. I missed no point. You didn't read MY post.

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 23:52
right then, same manner but is not equiped.

thanoson
07-06-2008, 23:56
I'm gonna go one better than that. Zogwort is the weapon and thus both abilities can be combined. How's that?

Gensuke626
08-06-2008, 00:02
Zogwort is not a weapon. Nest of Vipers is possibly "not a weapon" but it is wargear. for wyrdboyz, they are treated as having a power weapon on a 1-3 on their random power roll.

All facts.

Now we must ask "Can the Wargear Nest of Vipers be combined with the Power Weapon that Zogwort magically produces?"

thanoson
08-06-2008, 00:08
His attacks can come from him the same way a broodlord has it's attacks. His abilities makes the attacks special attacks. Same as the broodlord. Ok, I'm going without an ork codex so bear with me. Does the 1-3 give them a power weapon or attacks like a power weapon?

Gensuke626
08-06-2008, 00:12
It gives him a power weapon. But it's not the same as a Brood lord. If we de-clawed the broodlord, then he'd still have inhuman strength as it's a special rule native to himself. If we took away all of Zog wort's gear then he'd just be a tough weyrdboy.

thanoson
08-06-2008, 00:13
Just thought of this. Does he roll seperatly for the attacks from the nest? Or are those attacks combined with his normal attacks? The reason I ask this is if they are seperate then that would be considered 2 different weapons and then you wouldn't be able to use the 2+ wound as per RAW. However, if it's just an extension of his attacks I don't see that being a seperate weapon and would be usable with the poisoned attacks.

Gensuke626
08-06-2008, 00:19
Nest of Vipers:Old Zogwort has an additional D6 attacks at an initiative of 4. All of Zogwort's Attacks are poisoned attacks that always wound on a 2+

Not sure how to rule it. I'm taking this discussion to my FLGS forum for consideration by my area's verterans.

thanoson
08-06-2008, 00:23
see, the part where it says ALL of his attacks leads me to believe he gets the power weapon attacks too. I'm sure they considered that when they were figuring him out.

Gensuke626
08-06-2008, 00:30
I'm not sure that the guys who wrote 5th ed talked to Phil at all except to tell him things like "Don't do that, 5th ed alreay does that" or "Hey, that's a neat rule." or "Yeah, that'll work in 5th ed."

StrikerFox
08-06-2008, 10:29
HAHA! wow, i leave for a day, and this thread explodes! XD

anyway, i mulled it over with one of my friends, and he said that he would rule it as seperate because his base attacks would be at I2 (which would get the power weapon from being weyrd), and his nest of vipers (also because its a piece of wargear) gets the poisioned attacks because its at I4.
the part that really does throw it off is the "all" word... either they meant it as it is, or they fugged it completely..

Natura
08-06-2008, 13:01
Ooo...you have the book close enough. Cool.

Now go and look up if it just needs to be a "Poisoned Attack." or if Poisoned Attacks and Poisoned Weapon are two completely different terms.

"Poisoned Weapons

Poisoned weapons range from blades coated in venom to hypodermic claws. They do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets. In most cases this is 4+. Some venoms are so lethal that the merest drop can kill - these may wound on a 3+ or even 2+ (as described in the appropriate Codex). In addition, if the Strength of the wielder is the same or higher than the Toughness of the victim, the weilder must reroll failed rolls to wound in close combat. These weapons confer no advantage against vehicles."

Thats the whole entry on poisoned weapons. Nothing in there about differentiating between the two; it would seem that if you have a poisoned attack, you count as being equipped with a poisoned weapon. However, nowhere does it say that a single weapon cannot have multiple special attacks attributed to it (and in fact, sniper rifles count as rending and pinning weapons, so there's precedent) . Additionally, the section I quoted before states that models equipped with two special weapons must choose which to use, but Zog can't choose can he? If he rolls 1,2 or 3 in combat, he counts as being equipped with a power weapon, but regardless of whether he attacks with that or his fists, he'll still wound on 2+, because he can't choose to switch off nest of vipers.

Unless I'm totally missing something.

Elios Harg
08-06-2008, 14:41
Correct. Since the rule states that all of his attacks are poisoned, even if he opted to attack with his 'bare hands' (normally meaning you're turning off your special attacks rules) he'd still treat all of his attacks as poisoned.

kendaop
08-06-2008, 18:56
OMG, I can't believe of all things, Zogwart's poisoned attacks are being rules lawyered...:rolleyes: It doesn't matter what Nest of Vipers counts as. It's a piece of wargear that makes all of his attacks poisoned. Power weapon attacks get it too because they reside in the domain of "all his attacks". He doesn't have a magical grot swinging his magical power sword for him, therefore the attacks are coming from him. This thread really needs to die.

Meriwether
09-06-2008, 14:33
A useful post, kendapop. :sarcasm:

This is a rules forum, where rules are discussed.

The additional conversation, however, doesn't seem to have added anything to the discussion. It seems pretty clear at this point that Zoggy's wargear can combine with his psychic power to get poisoned power weapon attacks. The 'all' in the Nest of Vipers seems to clinch it IMO.

Meri

Gensuke626
10-06-2008, 00:55
Yeah. I'm going to have to say that he gets 2+ poison power attacks.

But I'd like to note that:
1. There are precedents of Multi-Special rules coming from a single weapon. Sniper Rifles are 1. I'm sure that there are Poison Power weapons (Or poison Rending) out there as well, I was never disputing that.

What I was argureing was that the power weapon that Zogwort Manifests is a seperate weapon from all the weapons he carries, and if the nest of Vipers counted as a weapon then he can't use it. Since it seems like Nest of Vipers isn't a weapon then I'm going to have to say "Yeah, they can do it."

but @Elios - Just because it says "All his attacks" doesn't mean that he can't turn it off. You may always attack without using any special rules.

Taipan
10-06-2008, 04:17
Well, it seems pretty straightforward. Remember, in none of this does Zogwort actually have a 'poisioned weapon' or a 'power weapon'.

In the first instance (nest of vipers), all it says is that all his attacks are poisioned and wound on a 2+. Wargear, not a weapon. He can't turn it off, because it's not a special close-combat attack, it IS his close-combat attacks. So it applies for both the additional D6 at I4, and his normal I2 attacks (FC bonus notwithstanding).

In the second instance, the 1-3 psychic power rule in combat means he 'counts as having a power weapon'. Same deal; it's a crazy power bestowed on him, not an actual weapon. Can't choose to turn it off, cos all it says is 'congrats, you now ignore armour, because you are insane and spitting green warpfire from your fingernails'. It's like Monstrous Creature status; a Carnifex can't choose not to ignore armour saves (and bio-plasma specifically forbids it's normal MC status from applying to the bio-plasma attack).

Anywayz, it's going to be hard enough to get him into combat in the first place, he's infantry speed and requires a large mob of Boyz to prevent cheap death to heavy bolter.

Kirasu
10-06-2008, 05:18
Its just like Eldrad who has a witchblade that "ignores armor saves".. and I dont see a thread for that

neophryte
10-06-2008, 06:31
Its just like Eldrad who has a witchblade that "ignores armor saves".. and I dont see a thread for that

...yet

Though I imagine you will soon.

Gensuke626
10-06-2008, 11:06
In the second instance, the 1-3 psychic power rule in combat means he 'counts as having a power weapon'. Same deal; it's a crazy power bestowed on him, not an actual weapon. Can't choose to turn it off, cos all it says is 'congrats, you now ignore armour, because you are insane and spitting green warpfire from your fingernails'. It's like Monstrous Creature status; a Carnifex can't choose not to ignore armour saves (and bio-plasma specifically forbids it's normal MC status from applying to the bio-plasma attack).
Maybe you didn't get the memo, but the phrase "Counts as..." means exactly what it says. So if he "Counts as having a power weapon." then it is exactly the same as "He has a power weapon." Thus it can be turned off if he chooses to do so and may not be combined with any other special weapons.

It's very different from being a monstrous creature since monstrous creatures don't have power weapons to allow them to ignore attacks, they just do it naturally.


Anywayz, it's going to be hard enough to get him into combat in the first place, he's infantry speed and requires a large mob of Boyz to prevent cheap death to heavy bolter.
It's called a Trukk. It's easy to use and it's cheap.


Its just like Eldrad who has a witchblade that "ignores armor saves".. and I dont see a thread for that
It's not just like Eldrad, because it's a single piece of wargear with two special rules, as opposed to 2 pieces of Wargear with a Special rule each.

Natura
10-06-2008, 12:46
It's not just like Eldrad, because it's a single piece of wargear with two special rules, as opposed to 2 pieces of Wargear with a Special rule each.

Granted, but is there any reason why the power weapon that Zogwort counts as having cannot also have the poisoned property bestowed upon it by Nest of Vipers?

Gensuke626
10-06-2008, 21:41
Granted, but is there any reason why the power weapon that Zogwort counts as having cannot also have the poisoned property bestowed upon it by Nest of Vipers?

I've explained this at least 8 times on this thread.

IF The Nest of Vipers counted as a poisoned weapon
THEN It cannot be combined with the power weapon that Zogwort might generate
BECAUSEThe Weirdboy's ability does not say "The Weirdboy's weapons become power weapons." But it says that they count as being equipped with a Power Weapon.
THEREFORE The Power Weapon generated by the Weirdboy ability and the Nest of Vipers are two discrete pieces of Wargear.

EvilMinion
10-06-2008, 22:10
I agree with meriwether, anyways 9 attacks is the potential, remember it is only a D6.
Oh and another thing, only when Old Zogwart is in close combat he is elegible to have a power weapon (wait!!! that's not my point) usually meaning he has to last a round of CC
- which i doubt he can withstand due to all the attacks comming his way.

Gensuke626
11-06-2008, 00:18
I agree with meriwether, anyways 9 attacks is the potential, remember it is only a D6.
Oh and another thing, only when Old Zogwart is in close combat he is elegible to have a power weapon (wait!!! that's not my point) usually meaning he has to last a round of CC
- which i doubt he can withstand due to all the attacks comming his way.

It's not that hard...Stick him in a squad and keep him out of combat in the first round...or just place him so that only 1 or 2 guys can attack him that round.

Maguni
11-06-2008, 00:41
Sorry, I went back and noticed the issue was already resolved.