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Eigilb
09-06-2008, 11:37
Hi Guys.

I have played HoC & TK for most of my warhammer days and feel it's time for a change - so I'm considering collecting Skaven.

Apart from having to muster a force two or tree times as a big as any army I have commandend before, what else can i expect?

Do they work well against the 7ed armies? Do they have more than viable tactics/builds? How do you guys consider them as your opponenet and under your own command?
Basicly, I just wonna know something before I go on spending.

Thanks in advance :)

Condottiere
09-06-2008, 12:23
There some really ass-kicking army lists possible. I'm too traumatized to list them.:cries:

ZeroTwentythree
09-06-2008, 14:03
I'd suggest scanning through some of the skaven posts in the tactics and army lists sections of the forum. Look for the "council of 13" super-thread in the tactics section.

IMHO skaven are a currently a middle-ground army. They can do well, but do face some challenges from some armies. Personally I've got a decent record against dwarves, empire, HE, old HoC. I've had mixed results against BoC, OK and O&G, though that may be becuase I've played some pretty good generals using those armies. TK, VC and WE have given me the most trouble. My few games against DE & Brets have been sucessful. I haven't faced the new daemons yet, but dread that match up.

My own preference is to play them as a horde army, with a few support units (engineers, jezzails, etc.) to try to take down potentially troubling units/critters. Some people call armies like DE a "finesse" army, but in a way you have to be the same way with skaven, just using larger blocks of troops and no cavalry. :D It's all about the maneuvering.

Ward.
09-06-2008, 14:06
They're still competitive, although you'll need spear armed clanrats/ pestilence troops for the vampire counts and the new daemon book pretty much reamed us with one character.

==Me==
09-06-2008, 15:52
Skaven are no longer the uber cheese thanks to weapon teams getting nerfed in 7th, but they are still viable and a fun army to play (even if you don't max out on shooting and magic).

Skaven are a horde army, so take plenty of clanrats and slaves (I try for 3 units of each in 2k, minimum). They are inexpensive, fully ranked, relatively speedy (M5), and extremely useful. Slaves can tie down expensive units like Chosen, Blood Knights, etc all game, or set up flank charges, or charge and get shot, or any other number of uses.

Without cavalry, our speediest units are Eshin units, tunnel teams (similar to Scorpions, only weak rat people), and Skitterleap (Grey Seer only), so positioning is vital. Clanrats need those flank charges to beat down harder enemies like Dwarfs, and slaves/night runners can be used to bring enemies out of position and keep them from owning you.

Skaven support units are incredibly destructive (shooting, magic), but can and will blow up in your face quite often. That's the army in a nutshell, it can be deadly when all is well, and hilarious when things go wrong.

Skaven are easily ==My== favorite army, even if I still have 200 models to paint...

Eigilb
09-06-2008, 19:38
Thanks for the replies :).

I'm not aiming towards creating a SAD, but a more balanced list. Maybe with the Bell and with a little fluff in it - UWC (The United Warpstone Cooperation/Collectors :) ) but what are your opinions and Clanrats with Spears? Especially on the ones guarding the Bell?

ZeroTwentythree
09-06-2008, 20:46
I'm not crazy about spears...

If you've got an army with, say, 100 clanrats in it, spears for each is 100 extra points. In skaven math, 100 spears = 50 slaves! :eek:

Sticking with handweapon and shield is 100 points cheaper, and in hand-to-hand combat they get a 4+ save instead of 5+.

I tend to prefer to be the one charging rather than getting charged, so the extra rank of attacks wouldn't come into play in the first turn anyway. Plus, they're just WS3 S3 spear attacks, not likely to wound much.

ALSO... if you're putting the bell in the unit, you're going to have, what, 3 or maybe 4 clanrats in the second rank that can attack? (Because the bell occupies space in the second as well as the first ranks.) And again, you'd be paying +25-30 points for the unit.

When I think it's worth it, maybe, is if you're going to go frenzy-crazy (which you might, with the bell.) Especially if you get warp frenzy off. If you've got 5 wide, attacking in two ranks with warp frenzy, that's something like 30 attacks. (But again, experience from using plague monks tells me that -- as I mention above -- you'll roll a lot of dice with little to show for it by the end of the combat.)

I used to use spears for a long time, but gradually saw the light...

...and the light was glistening off a hand weapon and shield.

fubukii
10-06-2008, 04:11
i field roughly 120 clanrats in 2k can i can tell you they all have hw shield :)

YOu have m5 with your skaven you should almost always want to charge and go for that flank.

I wouldnt use a bell a 700 pt skaven unit is a really bad idea, no matter how cool it looks on paper.

Your best bet is to keep your units cheap use a warlord for ld, and go all out with warlocks and large amounts of infantry blocks. Take some eshin/skyre units for support and you got a good army.

the johnanator
10-06-2008, 05:16
I dont play them myself but a guy at my club does. He does very well partly due to the fcat he has been playing for longer than ive been alive but i believe that they are a very competitive army, hes beaten me with my WE 3 times and i only beat him twice. The games i have seen him play are usually a massacre his way or if he loses its a small loss. IMHO from what i have seen when you play skaven things either go very right or very horribly wrong.

Hope this helps.

Magos Explorator
10-06-2008, 08:29
I'm not crazy about spears...

If you've got an army with, say, 100 clanrats in it, spears for each is 100 extra points. In skaven math, 100 spears = 50 slaves! :eek:


That is a very good point! Convinced me.

kroq'gar
10-06-2008, 08:37
I've played them since the Doomwheel.

All you naysayers about spears- they are great. I take two offensive blocks of 30 clanrats (hw shield) and two defensive blocks of 30 with spears.

Then again, i also take a 36 regiment of storm vermin and a heap of warpfire throwers (only one rattling gun). The +9 static combat res is a killer.

No moulder (occassionally a single rat pack), only tunnelers from moulder, only weapon teams & magicians from skyre, no pestilence. Warlord clan all the way.

And a heap of slaves. currently modelling a zombie regiment to represent the old & rotten slaves being herded to battle once their use has expired.


EDIT: Just throwing it out there. I had an idea for upcoming skaven, that im going to houserule next time i use them- the outnumbering bonus is doubled (both for & against skaven).

Eigilb
10-06-2008, 11:10
Thanks for your advises guys. Enlightening



I'm not crazy about spears...

If you've got an army with, say, 100 clanrats in it, spears for each is 100 extra points. In skaven math, 100 spears = 50 slaves! :eek:



I'm not much into Skaven math yet. Then i guess it's the same as with TK skeletons, they don't every hit anything anyway incarnations or not :).
But what do you guys use your slaves for, and how do you equip them? Musician? And how many bloks do you field? I'm not use to have bloks of 20 troops at 40pt :wtf:





I wouldnt use a bell a 700 pt skaven unit is a really bad idea, no matter how cool it looks on paper.




I thought about this myself as I spent my afternoon in armybuilder - it will be targeted by cannons & dragons and all kinds of hardhitters right?.

Another question that pops up after reading this is considering weapon teams.
Do you use them on every blok of Clanrats, and do you prefer ratlinggun or warpfirethrower? And why?

Hops it's not too much to ask for. Thanks

Aurellis
10-06-2008, 11:27
Ratling Guns are a must really, they put out so much damage as long as you're sensible with your rolling that it should easily make its points back. It's easily shot down but you won't care because it's so cheap :D

Warpfire Throwers in my experience don't tend to do as well, no one likes flame templates on their regiments so they get targetted pretty quickly... nasty though

My favourite trick with Skaven though is taking a Clan Pestilens army, arguably the strongest building in 7th edition. Lots of Censer Bearers, Plague Monks, castings of Plague and may be Nurglitch dropping in too. The list can be really strong

ZeroTwentythree
10-06-2008, 19:46
But what do you guys use your slaves for, and how do you equip them? Musician? And how many bloks do you field? I'm not use to have bloks of 20 troops at 40pt :wtf:



My slaves:

Musician only. I field units of 25 and/or 40+/-.

Most people will say the 40 is overkill.

Use them as flankers, threats to charge the enemy, bait (then flee), redirecting sacrifice units (let them get charged, lose the combat & run away, but now your enemy is in a bad position), meatsheilds, adding numbers to combat to gain additional CR, claiming table quarters... just about anything.

The basis for playing the skaven horde is throwing away small points in order to gain big points. Get used to losing units of troops -- just keep your eyes on the big picture.

Beware getting them into combats where their losses will exceed the pluses they contribute to CR, though.

fubukii
11-06-2008, 00:04
slaves = flankers or charge redirectors, or they can go 1v1 vs weaker units.

i do 25 man with musician, and i deploy my units in a checkerboard pattern, works wonders.

kroq'gar
11-06-2008, 03:31
They are great for charging down gunlines etc- with a general nearby they are 2 point ld 10 models.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
11-06-2008, 06:20
Wait ... how did the new demon book ream Skaven?

==Me==
11-06-2008, 06:30
Lore of Slaanesh ruins Skaven, also Daemonettes tear Clanrats apart (but what doesn't?)

Of course, since a typical Skaven army outnumbers the daemon 4 to 1, it shouldn't be too hard to feed nasty stuff slaves and gang up on the rest. T3 and a 5+ ward isn't to hard. Plus, warpfire eats Plaguebearers.

One last thing for starting Skaven, buy the battalion. It's a great deal and an awesome way to start an army. I'd buy 2 and a couple heroes for a basis of a solid 2k point army. All you'll need next is a couple Eshin boxes for Night/Gutter Runners.

Ward.
11-06-2008, 07:43
==Me== beat me to it, but it was also the slaanesh special character, the masque (spl?). She can do some strange things to a skaven battle line. Also things like bloodletters can routinely overcome the five ranks or flank charge bonus of our flanking units (slaves and night runner's), gutter runners do tend to mulch daemons though.

Eigilb
11-06-2008, 20:58
Ratling Guns are a must really, they put out so much damage as long as you're sensible with your rolling that it should easily make its points back. It's easily shot down but you won't care because it's so cheap :D

So Ratling guns are by far the most effective? I have another question about Weaponteams, can they get targetet by shooting? And are they US1 or skimish?


The basis for playing the skaven horde is throwing away small points in order to gain big points. Get used to losing units of troops -- just keep your eyes on the big picture.

Seemes like slaves are the glue, and the ones that works tactical wonders, so I assumes you field as many units as possible 3-4 I assume. And I'll try not to get depressed when loosing units, but I think that's one of the hardest challenges for me since i'm used to play tk :p

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm more than ready to begin collecting.

Is there any final piece of advise you guys have in store for me :)?

fubukii
11-06-2008, 21:51
So Ratling guns are by far the most effective? I have another question about Weaponteams, can they get targetet by shooting? And are they US1 or skimish?



Seemes like slaves are the glue, and the ones that works tactical wonders, so I assumes you field as many units as possible 3-4 I assume. And I'll try not to get depressed when loosing units, but I think that's one of the hardest challenges for me since i'm used to play tk :p

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm more than ready to begin collecting.

Is there any final piece of advise you guys have in store for me :)?


Couple of things.

Ratling guns they are Insanely effective IF they ever get to fire and no they arent dirt cheap. 60 pts for 1 wound toughness 3 model is rather exepnsive when any one can target them if they in los. Sure if they dont get shot by anything in their army or hit by a magic spell and ACTually get to shoot they are great but thats a rare sight if your enemy is smart or has shooting! Id say only use them if your playin armies with very little in terms of ranged weapons. They are us2 sadly. 10 archers of any kind will kill these before its in range :(

Zero was correct again ( Dam you! always being right!) in that with skaven you want to throw away your cheap unitsi n order to protect your pricey units. SLaves are a must have in a winning skaven army. Id suggest having 1 per clanrat block and a min of 3 or 4 in a 2k game.

As for final advice. Remember to keep your mages and warlord alive, and avoid chieftans like the plague! Dont get flank charged. DOnt be afraid to flee :) shooting into combats can be fun with WLCS as they dont randomize hits. Flanking is key, Checkerboard deployment. Outnumbering is key. Bait frnezy units. Block units you cant beat in combat with slaves. Redirect with slaves. Shoot big things/knights/chariots with jezzails and cannons . Warped lightning is great at killing ANything that doesnt have a 1+ save.

THats about it

Limenix
12-06-2008, 12:31
I like Skaven.
Very powerfull BUT .... very low Ld.
There is a trick to beating skaven.
Go 1st , fly a terror causer near them and see the entire
army flee.
OK not so simple but it has happen too many times.
Considering the models a skacen army has , the opponent always gets the +1 roll
to go 1st.