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View Full Version : Renegades in Codex Chaos



Bigbot
04-09-2008, 14:02
Hey, now I'm WELL aware how well we've moaned and discussed the positives and negatives or Codex Chaos over the last few months, and while I don't want this thread to devolve into that, I do want to discuss a point I feel is raised by it's limitation.

Now overall I feel this codex is ok, it's got some good rules and plays really well but I feel it's rather bland and characterless. However my main problem comes alongside the focus on renegades.

Now it's said marines can go renegade at any point and use lots of examples of times when this happens. However I want to know what happens to their newer technology such as land speeders and whirlwinds, vanguard ETC, the codex has no allowence for it and place these newer renegades using older tech that was around at the time of the heresy.

With the new Space Marine Codex out next month the difference between the two armies is gonna be really pronounced and make even less sense for recent renegades to be using older tech.

I don't think it's so much a rules annoyance from my perspective but a fluffy issue. Has anyone else thought about this?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
04-09-2008, 14:18
well, for non-god aligned renegades, codex: space marines is better.

for established renegades, no codex is good.

for long time renegades, chaos or space marines.

IMHO

SilverScorpion
04-09-2008, 14:21
You're right,recent renegades will not just misplace their assault cannons etc.

The fluffiest way to represent recent renegades will be to continue using the loyalist codex. Having just turned to Chaos the chapter will not yet have gained the favour of the dark gods so no daemons or chaotic gifts.

As soon as you start using stuff from the choas codex of course you will have to give up the imperial only tech.Admitedly this is quite "gamey" and purely for balance reasons(otherwise chaos would just be codex space marines ++ ) but it can easily be explained away by logistics,they are unable to acquire assault cannon ammo anymore for example


Edit: Damm ninja'd!

Ambu
04-09-2008, 14:24
Basically how it is 'sorta' explained is that since going 'renegade' they no longer have the support from the Imperium and no longer have access to the parts needed to keep their equipment up so ofcourse they can only scavage the most out-dated equipment possible :mad:

Which, IMO is total utter poo

Brucopeloso
04-09-2008, 14:25
I think this is actually where the codex went wrong: it intended to shift the focus on renegades rather than legions and it failed on both counts.
I would have preferred to have a codex focussed on the remains of the old legions as more recent renegades (such as the Red Corsairs) are much better represented by using the SM codex with a few restrictions thrown in for flavour.
As a disclaimer: I actually like playing CSM, the critique its mainly on the style and feel of the codex (apart from the lash and that sad shamble that is the chaos dreadnought).

TzeentchForPresident
04-09-2008, 14:42
I think CSM are able to manufacture old stuff like plasma pistols, combi-bolters, some vehicles etc in Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom.

CSM never field tech-marines. Maybe it is so that tech-marines are so logical and rational thinking that they are, next to chaplains, the last ones to fall to Chaos, meaning that most are being eliminated by their fallen brothers and the few that do fall to chaos are busy elsewhere and too valuable to risk on the battlefield. If so, it is easy to see that fancy gear that requires maintance when on duty breaks down sooner or later.

But it won´t happen overnight though.

Ambu
04-09-2008, 15:04
CSM never field tech-marines. Maybe it is so that tech-marines are so logical and rational thinking that they are, next to chaplains, the last ones to fall to Chaos, meaning that most are being eliminated by their fallen brothers and the few that do fall to chaos are busy elsewhere and too valuable to risk on the battlefield.


Actually Obliterators are Tech-priests. When they turn to Chaos the get overly-obsessed with teching themselves (probably on off-shot fom the adeptus mechanis training. The higher you are the more tech you are, which is understandable because they are led by one of the 4 remaining C'Tan).

Sceleris
04-09-2008, 16:27
If it's a fluff issue about recently turned renegades not being able to use all the SM only stuff them keep using the SM codex.

It's a rules/balance thing - if the traitors could get access to everything the SM's could AND get marks/gifts/daemons etc why play the latter?

With one of the earlier Chaos Codicies you could get access to SM only wargear and vehicles but paid 50% extra - which balanced things out to an extent.

TheLionReturns
04-09-2008, 18:20
I don't have a massive problem with the equipment in the Chaos Codex personally. I think loyal marines are supplied from Imperial forgeworlds on the basis of long standing agreements, whilst renegades either trade on the black market or are supplied by forgeworlds in the eye of terror or maelstrom.

Given how rare a lot of marine weaponry is in the Imperium as a whole, it seems likely that what can be purchased in sufficient numbers on the black market will be limited. Similarly it isn't a massive stretch to consider forgeworlds which have been Chaos since the heresy lacking the capability to produce newer (or at least newly rediscovered) technologies.

Whilst those very newly turned renegade should have Imperial equipment initially, how long would such equipment last without resupply. Probably not too many engagements.

ChaosTicket
04-09-2008, 19:09
Really for the most part the only ones who can produce Space Marine tech are Space Marines themselves.

When Space Marines have a Fortress-Monastary they have a recruiting station, fortress, weapon foundry, vehicle pool, and command center all in one. But one of the first things to do it to renegades, is to destroy their Fortress-Monastary meaning the can't recreate any new Astartes, produce weapons, and everything else.

Largely I don't see renegades being able to produce newer Technology than the Traitor Legions.

the New Chaos Codex is a pretty good way to represent renegade chapters. Being renegade they would have to make do with older tech that is easier to aquire like older models are Power armor, Twin-Linked Bolters instead of Stormbolters, etc.

Vault-Dweller
04-09-2008, 19:31
the problem with that reasoning is that some of the new stuff isent that higtech or uncommon, like stormbolters. And some stuff are atefacts anyway, if they have a terminator armour why leave the thunderhammer and stormshield? As I see it it was a bad move to focus on the renegades as they should have more newer equipment than old.

Sarevok
04-09-2008, 22:34
Basically how it is 'sorta' explained is that since going 'renegade' they no longer have the support from the Imperium and no longer have access to the parts needed to keep their equipment up so ofcourse they can only scavage the most out-dated equipment possible :mad:

Which, IMO is total utter poo

Yeah, might make sense for some, but really only the Renegade marines in the Eye of Terror would be coming into contact with such ancient equipment as Reaper Autocannons, etc.

Doesn't really make sense for a force like the Red Corsairs. Let alone Dreadnoughts described as going insane through millenia of imprisonment.

Newer Renegades would better be served with a mish-mash of the two lists, but that will never happen, so Codex: Space Marines and counts as would be a better bet.
Only real gripe is ATSKNF which doesn't really fit their selfish nature.

Ambu
04-09-2008, 22:44
Yeah, might make sense for some, but really only the Renegade marines in the Eye of Terror would be coming into contact with such ancient equipment as Reaper Autocannons, etc.

Doesn't really make sense for a force like the Red Corsairs. Let alone Dreadnoughts described as going insane through millenia of imprisonment.

Newer Renegades would better be served with a mish-mash of the two lists, but that will never happen, so Codex: Space Marines and counts as would be a better bet.
Only real gripe is ATSKNF which doesn't really fit their selfish nature.

Alot of the true renegades never go near the eye of terror. I guess that is the weak point here. There are Traitors and Renegades which in all actualality two different marines sets. So I would say use C:SM and do counts as and don't uses chaos stuff.

And I don't by that they shouldn't receive ATSKNF because that is genetically altered in them not to have fear.

In fact that's one of the things that bother me about the Chaos Codex as well is the lack of fearlessness on half the units including terminators.

Sarevok
04-09-2008, 23:01
Another thing thing to bear in mind - other Marines have been separated from the imperium and yet retain their equipment - including the Space Wolf 13th company who actually fight in the Eye of Terror!

Ok, that's "no longer legal" rules, but still. I doubt you see anywhere in the fluff about Marine chapters suddenly learning how to make 10,000 year old weapons just because the Imperium cuts them off. Soul drinkers?

Ambu
05-09-2008, 08:59
good point

Bassik
05-09-2008, 19:12
People who read my posts (or signature) might know that I defend the new dex fiercly, even the dreadnought.
However, I completeley agree that focussing on renegades instead of the Legions was an exceptionally bad move, and I am certain the one responsible has been, or will be, executed by the commisar.

Bigbot
06-09-2008, 18:32
Thanks for the good answers guys, I was worried it would devolve into a 'ZOMG CC is TOSH!!!111' thread but it hasn't :)

ChaosTicket
06-09-2008, 19:00
Another thing thing to bear in mind - other Marines have been separated from the imperium and yet retain their equipment - including the Space Wolf 13th company who actually fight in the Eye of Terror!

Ok, that's "no longer legal" rules, but still. I doubt you see anywhere in the fluff about Marine chapters suddenly learning how to make 10,000 year old weapons just because the Imperium cuts them off. Soul drinkers?

Just because the Imperial Astartes don't use older tech doesn't mean they can't. Reaper Autocannons, especially now are inferior to Assault Cannons, when back in the 3rd Edition Codexes it was just an Autocannon, giving the Chaos Terminators an edge in range that they lose from having Twin-Linked Bolters and not Stormbolters.

For the most part the Imperial Marines have less use for Autocannons, as other weapons are used instead, like Assault Cannons and Plasma Cannons. Autocannons are easier to make and so the rest of Imperial Forces make wide use of them.

If Chapters of Astartes could no longer replicate certain things like Assault Cannons, Plasma Cannons, Grav technology, and Whirlwinds, then what would they make do with?

Certain things like Terminator, Dreadnoughts, and bolters can be easily repaired either because of their quality or the fact that they can be stolen or scavenged from Loyalist chapters or even other Traitor and Renegade chapters.

However, I wonder why Traitor and renegade chapters don't get to use either Drop Pods or Dreadclaw Assault Boats. Dreadclaw are widely used by almost all chaos fleets so why wouldn't the Astartes, the most strong willed, best equipped, and most cold-blooded have them?

HsojVvad
06-09-2008, 19:04
I thought you could make Renegads in the new SM codex. Am I wrong in thinking this? I thought there were 2 pages dedicated to Renegades

blackcherry
06-09-2008, 19:35
And I don't by that they shouldn't receive ATSKNF because that is genetically altered in them not to have fear.

In fact that's one of the things that bother me about the Chaos Codex as well is the lack of fearlessness on half the units including terminators.

Just thought i would add a point here which has been expanded upon in other fluff such as BL books. Normal marines are only subject to ATSKNF because of years of constant hypnotic programming. When Chaplins 'minister to the spiritual health' of a marine, it is in fact just reinforcing the 'hypnoindoctanation' as it is described in the soul drinkers book. So in a sense they are fearless just because their minds are programmed that way.

Renegades occur when normal SM manage to break their programming and think for themselves. This has the 'disadvantage' of providing them with a measure of self preservation:D.

Sorry just had to nitpick:p

Kalec
06-09-2008, 22:30
The reason chaos doesn''t get this stuff is because it would render loyalist marines obsolete.

Pacific
06-09-2008, 22:58
The answer is simply to use the loyalist SM codex - I can see few problems with using 'counts as' rules for your units even if you decide to go with some radical paint schemes and modelling.

I use the BA codex to represent my pre-heresy world eaters for instance. Using the chaos codex would limit to the troop and vehicle choices so much that my armour would not really represent the army portrayed in the background at all.

djinn8
07-09-2008, 01:55
I don't understand why even the Legions carn't use Landspeeders when the average citizen of the Imperium uses them everyday for the weekly shopping run, to get to work etc.. Ok, perhaps these aren't military issue speeders (with exception of the Arbite and Merc varients), but how difficult can it be for a CM rip out the baby seat in the back and mount an Autocannon instead. Are they having a fuel crisis in the warp or something?