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rcm2216
04-09-2008, 14:26
Which Race is the best close combat oriented force in 40K?


I am trying to make a good dedicated close combat army. I want to know which race would be estimated as the best flat out close combat race.

Ambu
04-09-2008, 14:29
After playing 'nids and Orcs Im gonna say orcs, though I hear DE as well IF being played by a compentent player, and Chaos is right up there with orcs if playing a very Khornate or Khorne/nurgle mix army.

Whitehorn
04-09-2008, 14:34
Orientated = Orks.
Lowest BS of all races has to suggest something.

However, I prefer to take Chaos Space Marines, Daemons or Eldar because I prefer their more specialised approach.

Askari
04-09-2008, 14:36
I've seen Tyranids and Orks being somewhat reliant on shooting, if only for anti-tank purposes.

So I picked Daemons, if you want to assault someone, they got the Daemon for the job.

MEQs? Bloodletters...
Fast Hordes? Seekers...
Howling Banshees/Harlequins? Plaguebearers
Monstrous Creatures/Tanks? Bloodthirster, Keeper of Secrets

Whitehorn
04-09-2008, 14:40
Daemons have some of the best ranged weapons in the game though. Although so do all armies :P

Askari
04-09-2008, 14:53
Not for anti-vehicle they don't...... :p

Dribble Joy
04-09-2008, 15:16
I'd say bugs. While Orks are primarily a close combat army, you can make very effective shooty lists. 45 Lootas, 2 SAGs and 90 shootas plus a few gubbins in 1500 points.

Rob'
04-09-2008, 15:27
I voted orks, because of their numbers, morale, strenth (on the charge), toughness, number of attacks, speed, and overall ability in close combat.

Nidz depend a bit too much on their monstruous creatures. The standard gaunt is fast but born to die, not tough enough IMO.

Chaos can be good too, but they arent made to be played as an assault only ary. they have the punch, but get glued.

Daemons are exellent when you know what the ennemy is going to put on the table, but as said before, lack tank busting power most of the time, and are few in numbers.

Never seen dark eldars, but they seem Weak compared to the rest. Weak, ill and half naked on the battlefield.

Ambu
04-09-2008, 15:28
I'd say bugs. While Orks are primarily a close combat army, you can make very effective shooty lists. 45 Lootas, 2 SAGs and 90 shootas plus a few gubbins in 1500 points.


Yeah though if you make a CC orc list it''s hard for the bugs to beat it, IMO and experience.

TzeentchForPresident
04-09-2008, 15:32
Tyranids, if ranged attacks aren´t allowed I can´t think of any army that is able to beat them in a pure CC fight.

Wolflord Havoc
04-09-2008, 17:36
Space Wolves.

And if the Rumours are too be believed they are getting (upto) 20 strong squads of Blood Claws.

Most if not all squads are geared up for HTH despite their 'real job'.

There is no Foe to hard or too numerous.

del-patch
04-09-2008, 18:44
tau all the way ;)

it depends as in lots of attacks, or abiliites...

Radium
04-09-2008, 18:53
For now I'd say Orks. Lots of Orks and PK attacks usually kill things.

stroller
04-09-2008, 19:14
Tough one - shilly shallied between nids orks dark eldar then finally plumped nids given "flat out" in the question

Grale_Krause
04-09-2008, 19:43
You know out of your selection im going to have to say CSM. I would say Nids or Demons for pure CC but you have to factor in shooting.

Now if we were to factor in all the factions in the game then i would have to say vanilla marines. Now i know that Space Wolves and Blood Angels are specifically geared for melee however my Vanilla Marine army hasnt been beaten by a Melee army yet. I did get stomped by a Nid army but it was shooty and the player just out played me.

My Marine army is about 50% melee, 15% shooty, 35% a light shooty screen for my melee. I've taken on a khorne army in which his only shooty was a Defiler and one squad of melee killed the rest of his army without shooting once. I used to run it as a DA army but with the new DA codex i couldnt pull off the same things so i had to switch to Vanilla. The new SM codex may change this but im thinking it will just allow me to do it in a more creative way.

For the record with my Marine melee army ive gone up against the following factions:

Nids Nids and more Nids
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Eldar
Dark Eldar
CSM Demon heavy and non demon heavy
Blood Angels
Demons
Black Templar
Tau
Ork
Sisters of Battle and Non-Sisters Witch Hunters
Grey Knights
IG

A continued note on those battles is that the BA/DA/BT players are the same people as the SM players. There are only 3 of us in my area that play SM and we switched from BA/DA/BT because of fluff/rules reasons.

In the end it really doesnt matter what race you play, as long as its not Necrons, and you will be able to make a good melee army. IG wouldnt be to powerful but it would be scary looking.

sorienor
04-09-2008, 20:08
I may be a bit biased, but I voted Orks :D

I can't tell you how many times I've been playing and the game was looking really bad, right up to the point where I got in CC and turned it around completely. To me that is the real sign of a CC race. I'm sure the same can be said by 'nid players.

Ususally though when I play 'nids I simply outshoot them, taking out the big threats (stealers) and letting the hidden pk's deal with the MC's. Like one game I had a squad of bikes completely wipe out a unit of gargoyles in one shooting phase.

march10k
04-09-2008, 20:25
Meh. I voted Nids, but nothing short of a C'tan or Abaddon stops the following:

Belial with claws
TDA Interrogator
Three sets of claws
One Thunderhammer
One Heavy Flamer with Chainfist

Stepping off the assault ramp of a Crusader. Well, it costs about 750 points...but still!

Twaun007
04-09-2008, 20:56
Orks. Seriously, they use stick bombs as close combat weapons. How scary is that?

Chem-Dog
04-09-2008, 21:00
Tyranids without a doubt, every section of the FOC can be filled with extremely dangerous assault creatures, any list that allows you to include as many Monstrous Creatures as the Tyranid Codex does has to be a contender, factor in Lictors, Warriors and Raveners you have an awesome array of mid level assault nasties and then you can just swamp the enemy with Gaunts....

MasterDecoy
04-09-2008, 22:19
Nids are faster, hit harder, come in larger numbers than orks, they just cant take it. Look at them and they die by the dozens.

Ambu
04-09-2008, 22:29
Nids are faster, hit harder, come in larger numbers than orks, they just cant take it. Look at them and they die by the dozens.

Funny, I have heard and seen this, but replace orcs where nids is, plus they are tougher to boot. All in all I think they balance each other out, depends on who gets the first strike, but all in all I see orcs win out more then nids.

EDIT: Maybe after nids get a new list it might be different.

MasterDecoy
04-09-2008, 22:47
Id have to say its about even. My friends orks who I play against regularly, generally takes 3 mobz of 30 (1 shoota 2 slugga) and about 6 killa kans with a big mek and warboss in 1000pts, against my WoN Fleshgaunts and alpha hormagaunts led by a broodlord and genestealers with a couple of zoans and biovores are very evenly matched. Unless either of us makes a critical mistake generally ends in a draw (I think we played a killpoints mission once, he won 8 to 6) but he obviously wouldnt have won if the game had gone into turn 6.

CthulhuDalek
04-09-2008, 22:55
I'd love to say Nids, and it'd be mainly true. It's really a tie between the nids, orks and daemons.

Daemons lack most shooting, and so they are *designed* to be close combat monsters. Tyranids are also excellent and have the speed that allows them to engage as quickly as possible, one of the fastest cc armies, their shooting is also made to allow the most out of close combat. However, I voted for orks cuz deyz da best!

No seriously, the orks trump the other two mainly because ork shooting can be much more offensive than tyranids, they get little penalty in combat in comparison, and a basic shoota boy is more effective than the tyranid meatshield spinegaunt, point for point. I still think Daemons and Nids are the top two contenders for this spot and it really varies on army composition and game play. I've seen nids win more than orks mainly because of the players themselves.

Angelus Mortis
05-09-2008, 00:24
I'll take a squad of stealers over a squad of boyz any day.

CthulhuDalek
05-09-2008, 02:05
I'll take a squad of stealers over a squad of boyz any day.

9 stealers with carapace or talons vs. 30 boyz?

Stag2016
05-09-2008, 02:19
By direct comparison of stats, DE have the joint best troops choices, and awesome elite units for small games. High initiative and weapon skill all round and cheap power weapon Incubi make them pretty good for 1000-1500 point games. But orks and nids tend to pull ahead due to brute force numbers and newer special rules. Daemons i'm not so sure about, they suffer from mass bolter fire and explosives for a few turns after arriving on the board.

My vote went to nids because of the shear volume and power you can pack into an army, there are so many monsters of varying size and toughness that the enemy generally won't have enough guns to get rid of them all.

hush88
05-09-2008, 05:26
'Nids would probably be it. Nothing but genestealers and you can still take down most army, what with rending and all.

avatarofportent
05-09-2008, 05:33
i just bought a tyranid army so im voting for them

Tommygun
05-09-2008, 05:55
I vote for Deathguard.

Elbows of Death
05-09-2008, 06:38
Easy...Imperial Guard. No Ogryns, tanks, commissars, psykers...just hundreds and hundreds of Guardsmen. (hopes you take my advice...and hopes you end up playing me at some distant tourney)

olmsted
05-09-2008, 06:44
13th company space wolves. wulfen lords with 9 str 5 power weapon attacks on the charge? 7-8 powerfist attacks on the counter charge and hitting all on 3+ wow

Sergant ChinStrap
05-09-2008, 06:55
Actually the thing that scares me is not 100 Boyz running at me cause you can take massed weak fire, aka tons of heavy, storm and normal bolters. daemons they spawn do nothing and again masssed fire takes out lessers and the BT and KOS are the only problem.
So I say Nids with 9 or so TMC all kitted out for assault im sure that would kill, anything. Hidden pf may be a problem though...?

Alx_152
05-09-2008, 07:04
Best CC, so no shooting factored in.
I would say Nids.
Orks are a close second.

Vaktathi
05-09-2008, 07:14
Orks, hands down.

Blood Angels aren't *really* a CC army, they are a close range shooty army more than anything else with a really beefy assault unit. Chaos is much the same, although can be shootier or killier. Neither really will outfight Orks.

Tyranids are very killy, but Orks simply have a huge cost advantage over them, and Orks can be *very* killy and still *very* shooty, for less points than Tyranids.

DA aren't really a CC army either, especially with 5th ed. They are a shooty army with tons of cheap S8 AP2 weapons that had a unit that was amazing at narrowly winning combats in 4th ed, but that now suffer from the counterattack rules and the no consolidation thing.

Daemons don't really hold a candle to Orks either in terms of raw CC ability (or shooting) and can't muster the numbers to really outfight orks.

StormWulfen
05-09-2008, 07:28
hey! you forgot space wolves wich are much better than blood angel in close combat

:chrome:

Aldo Fernández
05-09-2008, 08:31
Sure Orks.

For the simple reason that all of their army are oriented to CC combat.

11 orks with a noble with power fist and a truck x6 are a scary vision.

They move 30 cm each turn, with 5 cm and 2,5 of base when they come to the floor and 15 cm more of the assault...

Every unit, once at floor, are 44 chopas and after, the power fist.

I'm a Dark Eldar player, and my archon and my wyches can stop easily one unit each, but two or three units are impossible to stop... 88 choppas and after 2 power fist means 44 hits of choppa, 33 wounds and after 2 power fist.

All of this for a ridiculous point cost, and 6 scoring units.

Really guys, if you don't stop them, they kill you easily.

Regards from Barcelona

Aldo

MasterDecoy
05-09-2008, 08:38
my 3 shooty warriors at 114 pts killed 9 orks in 1 round of shooting and then charged to claim another 8 in cc with and a nearby lictor that also charged causing another 3 (yes thats only 14pts more than said ork squad), the strike back from the orks causing 2 wounds from the boyz and 1 from the pk. boyz lose combat by 8, fail leadership run, bosspole kicks in, re-roll, still fails, all orks are run down.

Net losses by orks 30, net losses by nids, 1 warrior.

max the dog
05-09-2008, 19:46
I'd love to vote for my nids but codex creep in other armies and rule changes in 5th did a pretty good job neutering their dominance in close combat. They're still good at it but not like before.

Angelus Mortis
05-09-2008, 20:17
9 stealers with carapace or talons vs. 30 boyz?

Actually, I would take 11 plain Jane Stealers vs. 30 Boyz. Thats 33 rending attacks on the charge hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s with a 6+ save for the Boyz. There stands a good chance that the Boyz will be significantly reduced before they get to attack back. When they do it would be with 3 attacks a piece hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s with a 5+ save for the Stealers.

Now, that being said, it would be in the Boyz favor of course to get the charge, but even then they would be hit first by the Stealers 22 attacks as above, then retaliate with 4 attacks each and wounding on 4s, otherwise as above. Either way, I think ultimately the Stealers would come out on top, especially with the new rules for taking wounds for being fearless.

So in conclusion, yes Stealers over Boyz any day.

Eidre
05-09-2008, 21:09
I voted for Nids (biased of course since that's what I play). Even though 5e did bad (but necessary) things to rending, the aging codex allows genestealers to get feeder tendrils for just 1 point (granting Preferred Enemy to them and anything within 2" of the brood). In 4e, this was crap because they were already hitting anything reasonable on 3+. Now, they're hitting with 8/9 of their attacks due to the 5e "preferred enemy" reroll. Paired up with massed gaunts or CC oriented monstrous creatures, they are granting them CC rerolls as well, which is fairly nasty.

And, depending on how close you put the nearest synapse creature, you can either make them (effectively) fearless (for resisting morale checks against being shot) or you can just rely on their Ld10 and normal morale rules (for when they hit close combat and you don't want to take No Retreat saves).

I also consider their Initiative 6 a huge advantage in winning that sweeping advance roll when/if they win close combat, especially combined with one or more hive mind creatures with psychic scream (-1 Ld per screamer w/in 18", stackable) to improve the chances of breaking the opposing squad.

Similar logic applies to most of the Nid list (especially the CC types) ...the genestealer is just the archetype for Nid close combat and makes a good example. Even rippers can be pretty good in close combat with feeder tendrils nearby (and in sufficient numbers).

Ambu
05-09-2008, 21:32
So in conclusion, yes Stealers over Boyz any day.

But it is not just one unit over another, it is total army versus total army

bork da basher
05-09-2008, 21:46
orks hands down. nids a close second and i really rate assult orientated deathguard aswell. but overall orks on the most basic level are built for combat. the basic ork boy weighing in at a tiny 6pts is built for combat with a basic 2 attacks, WS4, T4 and furious charge and are unbreakable in units of 11+ and get a free fleet of foot once per game. for the basic grunt of the army this is pretty amazing and it only gets better.

my preferred combat ork army revolved around huge amounts of boys, 9 kans, big mek with KFF to keep em alive and a nigh unkillable warbiker warboss with nobz/painboy/cybork bodies. and whatever else killy i can squeeze in for the points.

FashaTheDog
05-09-2008, 22:45
Meh. I voted Nids, but nothing short of a C'tan or Abaddon stops the following:

Belial with claws
TDA Interrogator
Three sets of claws
One Thunderhammer
One Heavy Flamer with Chainfist

Stepping off the assault ramp of a Crusader. Well, it costs about 750 points...but still!

How does 20 Wyches armed with Wych weapons and a Succubus with Agoniser sound for 288 points? Or for 248, Lelith and 10 Wyches with Wych weapons and the Agoniser armed Succubus. I'll even give you the charge.

Angelus Mortis
05-09-2008, 23:43
But it is not just one unit over another, it is total army versus total army

I agree totally. And you can make an entire list of Stealers so...

Dont get me wrong, Orks are definitely second in my book, but I really think the 'Nids have it when it boils down to the nitty gritty.

Ambu
06-09-2008, 00:30
I agree totally. And you can make an entire list of Stealers so...

Dont get me wrong, Orks are definitely second in my book, but I really think the 'Nids have it when it boils down to the nitty gritty.

As of now, that might change there next incarnation as it seems they are taking alot of the individul armies away. And I seen Orcs totally destroy genestealers as well so thats a matter of opinion.

I'll give you this much, hands down, orcs vs nids it all really comes down to two things:

1) The player, how he marches and manuevers his units to try to get the charge and what not.

2) The ultimate equalizer..... THE DICE I have seen great players with killer lists get decimated by newbe players w/ poor lists do to the roll of the dice.

Souleater
06-09-2008, 00:31
I voted Orks.

The basic Ork Boy is much better than the basic spinegaunt or Termagaunt and can come in just as greater numbers. They are also pretty much fearless without the aid of a Synapse Node. And don't go running off and being silly outside of Synapse range.

More base attacks on most stuff plus more effective support fire - including flamers.

Nids get rending...but that's a tool for heavily armoured elite armies or enemy MCs....much less useful against Orks.

Nids get MCs but they are vulnerable to Power Klaws hidden in mobs.

Angelus Mortis
06-09-2008, 00:46
As of now, that might change there next incarnation as it seems they are taking alot of the individul armies away.

And your evidence to back that up is...? I mean, we are talking about now arent we?

LiMunPai
06-09-2008, 01:41
Stealers with Preferred Enemy that also grant Preferred Enemy to the nids around them are the bee's knees.

The front rank can also be given carapace, or a spine gaunt screen can be used.

CC Tyrants loaded down with guards are also really strong, especially when they are re-rolling to hit.

A fully kitted out nids assault only list can handle more lists than a fully kitted out ork assault only list and can beat that list personally because they will most likely win combats owing to their more elite nature.

Ambu
06-09-2008, 02:07
And your evidence to back that up is...? I mean, we are talking about now arent we?

Recent history on what GW is doin to the codexes. And as of now I still believe, it will all depend on who got the drop on who, or did you not read all of my last post...

And in all honest, number wiseversus stealers I go with orcs.

FashaTheDog
06-09-2008, 02:08
The Dark Eldar have some excellent assault units but they are not really an assault army, they are a sneak up behind you, shoot you in the back, and stab you while your down army. Looking at assaulting as a list as a whole, Nids seems to have an edge over Orks because while they may swarm with inferior troops to the cost/value ratio, they can support it with more dangerous assault elements than the Orks and have special abilities that give the list a little extra incentive to do well in combat. Does this mean that Nids are better than Orks at it? No, not at all. It just makes them perform differently. Like Orks, Nids do well to smash into something with numbers supported by tough stuff but the difference comes in that while Orks are geared to do that very well, Nids sacrifice a little there for some more subtle elements. Either army excels at close combat, they're just different flavors.

Angelus Mortis
06-09-2008, 02:08
Recent history on what GW is doin to the codexes. And as of now I still believe, it will all depend on who got the drop on who, or did you not read all of my last post...

Total speculation.

Ambu
06-09-2008, 02:18
Total speculation.

True, I will give you that but it is a damn good one.

Angelus Mortis
06-09-2008, 04:35
True, I will give you that but it is a damn good one.

No such animal Bro. Speculation is pretty much worthless. For one, theres a totally new edition of rules out. Secondly, with differnt authors writing different codexes, there is no telling whats going to happen with them. My historical examples include 3e C:CSM and 4e C:SM, C:Orks, C:CD(not only no way of speculating, but an entirely new army), and now another C:SM very close on the heels (comparatively) of the old one. Sorry Bro, speculation when it comes to GW is never good, let alone damn good.

Supreme Archon Orlok
10-09-2008, 21:53
I voted dark eldar but it's probably just me being biased mostly i prefer to use wyches in my army but I sometimes use mandrakes (their cover save is extremley useful)

avatar of kaine
12-09-2008, 17:13
i reckon its a toughy between DE and da ORKS!

FashaTheDog
12-09-2008, 18:34
Dark Eldar really seem not to be and overall assault army. Unless you run a Wych army, you will tend to only ever charge when it is most favorable to you, a tactic that makes all of your assaults devastating, but these assaults are usually part of a combined strategy of heavy firepower and target isolation, making the charge more of the nail in the coffin than the primary weapon. As such Tyranids seem to be an overall better assault army than Dark Eldar since the Tyranid list is really geared to close the distance and get stuck in while the Dark Eldar are far too sneaky for that.

And Orlok, let's face it, Mandrakes are horrible assault units. Unless you charging small units of Tau or Guard you're wasting them. They make for excellent disruption units; popping out to contest and object, draw fire away from other units, or even act as a screen to give someone else a 4+ cover save, all of which they can wait until turn 3 to do without fear of being destroyed. When you combine it with their neat deployment rules, it makes them well suited for such a task. Assaults, however, are not where they want to be since 9 times out of 10 they will be soundly crushed.

Supreme Archon Orlok
17-09-2008, 22:17
it's because mandrakes are cowardly I mostly use mandrakes as meatshields to cover my main devious plans mhuhahahahahahahaha.......

sorry about that....

yes i agree that dark eldar may not be an overall assault army but close combat does usually seem to be a main part of their plan.

p.s I make sure I NEVER use scourges as many dark eldar players may agree that they suck

surprize
17-09-2008, 22:39
Guard. Without a doubt. Don't care how many claws or choppas you are sporting you don't want to get on the wrong end of a bayonet charge. :p