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Zachary
04-09-2008, 21:45
I think the orc and goblin army list is realy unbalanced. With fanatics AND spider riders. Spider riders can climb a fortress wall! And they have a low points cost for their efficiency. Then theres the fact that my elves ability make goblins fear them. But goblins almost ALWAYS outnumber elves so it usually doesnnt matter

Nurgling Chieftain
04-09-2008, 22:39
That's interesting. The vast majority of the internet opinion (aside from the "everything is balanced" crowd) seems to think Orcs&Goblins are under-powered.

skank
04-09-2008, 22:46
you play elves and think Orks and goblins are unbalanced? Thats strange... Fanatics are fairly powerfull but spiderriders are really soft.

Which elves by the way?

Zachary
04-09-2008, 22:57
Dark and high elves.(but not the new DE)
Spider riders supported by night goblins can cause massive damadge and you can get lots of them. anyway i know this isnt the tactics section but any advice??

skank
04-09-2008, 23:19
with fanatics you want to get them released as soon as possible. Use eagles, units of 5 phoenix guard or even shadow warriors to make the goblins release their fanatics earlier than they want. Move eagles and small suicide units towards night goblin units as fast as possible (preferably close to more than 1 unit), if shadow warriors can get within 8 wilst in cover they will be safe.

Shooting or magic only needs to kill 2 spiderriders of 5 to cause panic tests, goblins hate panic tests.

Urgat
04-09-2008, 23:23
Dark and high elves.(but not the new DE)
Spider riders supported by night goblins can cause massive damadge and you can get lots of them. anyway i know this isnt the tactics section but any advice??

Massive damage? Spiders?
And the outnumber is not so simple: you've got to outnumber elves 2 to 1. That means you need 40 gobs not to fear 20 elves. So basically, no, it's rare, gobs almost always fear elves.
I'm pretty amazed by that thread, really.
And indeed that's not the tactitcs section, but, that being said, I don't see what it has to do with rules either?

Storak
04-09-2008, 23:24
Dark and high elves.(but not the new DE)
Spider riders supported by night goblins can cause massive damadge and you can get lots of them. anyway i know this isnt the tactics section but any advice??

hi, my name is Wladimir Klitschko, i have a fight with my 5 year old nephew coming up. any advice?

(stolen from a signature that some guy is running..)

PS: i take this as further confirmation of my thesis, about players who believe that O&G are a strong army and their (lack of) understanding of the basics of this game..

PPS: a good starting point to understanding the O&G army is here (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/index.php).

Hvidponi
04-09-2008, 23:48
Orcs and goblins are the best balanced book out there... Problem is, almost all the other books are overpowered...

Da GoBBo
05-09-2008, 01:30
amen to that.

Zachary
05-09-2008, 01:44
OK ppl thanks for the advice
my problem is i seem to fight larger units of spiders and i tend to only use powerfull squands of units that i cannot afford to have killed by a fanatic. Y should u use a eagle? it has no armor so it will (in my opinion) get destryoed. Unless i am mistaken and it will not even get hit due to the fact that it can fly. And i must have missread the rules about the panic test i thought they just had to outnumber. well thx ppl.

Nurgling Chieftain
05-09-2008, 03:03
Yeah, the eagle will probably die, but the fanatics are now out in the open and can wreak havoc on the goblins or just be shot. Curiously, the Eagle lands at 8", apparently for the sole purpose of getting hit by a fanatic, and then (if still alive) may carry on.

Zot Zot
05-09-2008, 03:26
Orcs and goblins are the best balanced book out there... Problem is, almost all the other books are overpowered...

I concurr. The Greenskin tome is the most balanced army tome out thus far, followed by the Empire. From what I have seen of the rest, they bury the needle too far somewhere.

My only real point of contention the gobbo cavalry. While a wolf-rider gets 2 more inches of movement, the spider rider gets Wallcrawling, and Posion Bites. When similarly equipped, they should not cost the same points.

Shimmergloom
05-09-2008, 04:39
OK ppl thanks for the advice
my problem is i seem to fight larger units of spiders and i tend to only use powerfull squands of units that i cannot afford to have killed by a fanatic. Y should u use a eagle? it has no armor so it will (in my opinion) get destryoed. Unless i am mistaken and it will not even get hit due to the fact that it can fly. And i must have missread the rules about the panic test i thought they just had to outnumber. well thx ppl.

This is not making any sense. Bigger units of spiders don't fight any better than smaller units. Bigger units are even worse since spiders cannot get a rank bonus no matter how many spiders are in the unit. So at most the goblin player is hoping to get outnumber.

You can hope at most to get 6 spiders into combat against a 5 wide elf infantry unit. And if you're using HE you'll always strike before them, so even archer units can own spider riders. There is no contest here. Spiders will struggle to beat any HE unit short of bolt thrower crew, lone weak character or a flank on a chariot.

Frankly any time I have played a greenskin player and seen more than 6 spiders in a unit, I feel my opponent has wasted points. And if I were to see a really big spider unit like you must be describing I'd be really happy with the easy VP's my opponent decided to give me.

As for fanatics if you're refusing to use the assets of your list such as eagles or shadow warriors, dark riders, harpies and shades, which are all very useful not just against fanatics but against nearly every army, then that doesn't make fanatics overpowered.

Fanatics are one of the biggest white elephants in the game. Every army has great counters to them and everyone knows what they are capable of, so no one lets them get away with it. If anything fanatics are at their worst point ever, with major nerfs in 7th edition and poorly written rules that state they'll die if they hit a freaking hill. And major oversights that had to be errata'd(when GW finally got around to it months later) with the freaking book leaving out simple things like fanatics being ItP and how to count up VPs for units with fanatics.

Tarian
05-09-2008, 04:46
High Elves honestly have almost no trouble against most O&G. Unless you're being seriously outplayed, you should be able to whomp on them pretty good.

HE Spears: Absolutely devastating against Gobbos, can do a decent number on the orcs too. Last time I had my spears charged by Spider riders was the last time my opponent charged my spears with Spider Riders.

One of the major problems with the O&G army against HE is their lack of armor. With universal ASF, every major infantry unit you have (Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard) can make a horrible mess out of almost any O&G unit.

You have better leadership, Weapon Skill, speed, and magic. Fanatics are annoying, but either throw a sacrificial unit of 5 Phoenix Guards at them (With that Ward, they may even survive) bait them with Shadow Warriors, toss an eagle at them, or even throw spears at them. Yes, it hurts, but it's much better to hit the Spears than your oh so expensive Dragon Princes.

Bottom line, is that ASF hurts O&G more than a lot of armies. With their good toughness but weak (on average) armor, your basic troops should stomp all over their basic troops, and your elites should shatter their elites. Their shooting isn't that good, so Swordmasters might actually make it to combat, and if they do, there aren't very many units that can take them on, even in multiples.

Lord Dan
05-09-2008, 05:39
I just literally laughed out loud. I've never done that before.

Da GoBBo
06-09-2008, 11:43
Curiously, the Eagle lands at 8", apparently for the sole purpose of getting hit by a fanatic, and then (if still alive) may carry on.

Hehe :) you just made my day.

Tarian, I don't really know high elves but I think it's a bit harsh to state that most high elf units will mangle most orc&goblin units. Sure, they get to strike first, but does that really matter? Unless you field your orcs with two choppa's they weren't there to do damage anyway. Orcs are there to be charged and hold the line, cavalery is there to get flanks and you have chariots and warmachines to do damage. Lucky us that those damagedealers arenīt really effected by their allways strike first thingy.

Storak
06-09-2008, 12:22
Hehe :) you just made my day.

Tarian, I don't really know high elves but I think it's a bit harsh to state that most high elf units will mangle most orc&goblin units. Sure, they get to strike first, but does that really matter? Unless you field your orcs with two choppa's they weren't there to do damage anyway. Orcs are there to be charged and hold the line, cavalery is there to get flanks and you have chariots and warmachines to do damage. Lucky us that those damagedealers arenīt really effected by their allways strike first thingy.

what type of orcish cavalry do you use for flanking against elves?


surely no gobbos, as they wont charge an enemy they fear.

and orc boars neither. they are a horribly expensive pick, basically worthless. and you will need those slots for your "warmachines, you know, the ones you want to do "damage" with...

savage orc boars are frenzy and forced to charge. good luck, flanking with them.

Da GoBBo
06-09-2008, 13:10
Yes gobbo cav will have issues charging elves when the general isn't near (and even when he is near the gobbo's have a 1/6 chance they wont get the charge). Orc cav would be fine, but like you said it's a special slot badly spent these days. Uhm, how about snotlings? Or perhaps some smaller orc units in support? You tell us since you have such great understanding of the basics of the game.

I don't really understand what's wrong with our warmachines. Sure, other armies field better ones ... and pay the points. 4 Spearchukkas do fine and they will soften up those fragile elf units, tearing at their static CR if I indeed do not get my flank charge.

Apart from all this, I wasn't presenting the perfect scheme to deal with High elves. I just don't agree with the statement that O&G suffer more from ASF than other armies. I think wood elves would suffer a lot more for instance. You figure out why than since you have such great understanding of the basics of the game.

Urgat
06-09-2008, 13:28
Yes gobbo cav will have issues charging elves when the general isn't near (and even when he is near the gobbo's have a 1/6 chance they wont get the charge). Orc cav would be fine, but like you said it's a special slot badly spent these days. Uhm, how about snotlings? Or perhaps some smaller orc units in support? You tell us since you have such great understanding of the basics of the game.

Snotlings? WS2 T2 things against ASf elves, the numbers of wounds they'd take would nicely counterbalance the lost rank bonus imho.
Orcs would work, though. I admit I've never face HE though, so I can't really comment.

p3990013
06-09-2008, 16:10
This is a very funny thread. All the gamers I know think O&G suck and are very unreliable.

T10
06-09-2008, 16:13
I expect they don't play Orcs and Goblins.

Or probably they do. I play Orcs & Goblins, and I find they tend they are a bit below average (others might say "suck"), and are to a certian degree unpredictable (others might say "unreliable")...
-T10

Tarian
06-09-2008, 17:02
(snip) I just don't agree with the statement that O&G suffer more from ASF than other armies. I think wood elves would suffer a lot more for instance. (snip)

WE have 2 things that O&G don't when dealing with HE. 1: Trees. Trees are hard to wound for basic HE troopers, and they usually have a ward save to help bounce off the attacks. 2: Reliable bow fire. Along with chariots, WE bows are a great way to bypass ASF.


Tarian, I don't really know high elves but I think it's a bit harsh to state that most high elf units will mangle most orc&goblin units. Sure, they get to strike first, but does that really matter? Unless you field your orcs with two choppa's they weren't there to do damage anyway. Orcs are there to be charged and hold the line, cavalery is there to get flanks and you have chariots and warmachines to do damage. Lucky us that those damagedealers arenīt really effected by their allways strike first thingy.

I've fought O&G many times, and the only units that worry me on a regular basis are the Chariots and decked out Orc Lords/Heroes. That being said, I am not claiming a spear regiment can massacre a Black Orc regiment. If that's the feeling you got, I apologize. :angel: Anyhow, my point is that the Orcs stack up rather poorly against HE in close combat. I know many of you don't like Mathhammer, but it can be useful to analyze an isolated incident. (Mathhammer, by its very nature, does not factor randomness into the equation. That being said, it *can* be very useful to see the likelihood of beating an enemy regiment in a straight up fight, and by how much.)

Spear Elves vs. Goblins (Assuming ongoing combat).

Spears strike first and get 16 attacks with a frontage of 5 and a champion.

16 * 4/6 = 10.6 Hits * 3/6 = 5.3 Wounds.

Now, we assume the Goblins use Spears.

5.3 Wounds * 4/6 (wounds that leak through) = A bit over 3.5 kills.

Goblins now strike back with 11 - 3 that died. (Frontage of 5 with champion)

8 Attacks * 3/6 = 4 Hits + 3/6 = 2 Wounds.

HE Spearmen take their armor, so:

2 * 4/6 = 1.3 Wounds.

HE Spearmen should expect to beat Goblin Spears by 2 kills. With their higher leadership, they are more likely to stay in the fight if the battle is close, and with higher kills, they strip ranks off the Goblins faster.

Swordmasters vs. Boar Boyz.

Swordmasters strike first and get 11 attacks with a frontage of 5 and a champion.

11 * 4/6 = 7.3 Hits * 4/6 = 4.8 Wounds.

Now, we assume the Orcs have an armor save.

4.8 Wounds * 4/6 (wounds that leak through) = A bit over 3 kills.

Orcsnow strike back with 6 - 3 that died. (Frontage of 5 with champion)

3 Attacks * 3/6 = 1.5 Hits + 5/6 = 1.25 Wounds.

HE Swordmasters don't have nearly enough armor to stop this, so:

1.25 * 6/6 = 1.25 Wounds.

Again, Swordmasters can expect to beat the cavalry by 2 kills. Assuming that it was a minimum block of 5 Swordmasters with a champion, they still stand a very good chance of wiping a unit that costs more than they do.

This is basically my point, even if you can wipe out the HE regiment, chances are it caused enough damage on its own to make a mess out of things. (Yes, you can shoot them with bolt throwers, but they can shoot back with better BS and better bolts. :D)

Anyhow, sorry for the long post.

Lord Dan
06-09-2008, 17:08
Your stats are spot on, save the fact that you charged arguably the worst cavalry in the game into arguably the best heavy infantry in the game.

If I played O&G, the only thing getting into combat with Swordmasters would be fanatics, chariots, and magic missiles. Everything else just watches. ;)

Tokamak
06-09-2008, 18:27
I have trouble thinking up a weaker list then O&G. The worst part is that usually the army seem to rely on fanatics as well. Hence I'm making an all-orc-on-foot army just to see how that works out. Not to win, but just to see 150 orcs in action wether they get slaugthered or doing the slashing themselves.

Da GoBBo
06-09-2008, 22:35
Anyhow, my point is that the Orcs stack up rather poorly against HE in close combat. I know many of you don't like Mathhammer, but it can be useful to analyze an isolated incident. (Mathhammer, by its very nature, does not factor randomness into the equation. That being said, it *can* be very useful to see the likelihood of beating an enemy regiment in a straight up fight, and by how much.)

NP at all. I think mathhammer is a perfect way to analyze situations. The thing is though that I would not pick those particular fights. Your spearman do well enough versus gobbo's, which is to be expected considering gobbo's cost three points and high elven spearman ... pt. I don't know exactely. Orcs on the other are a lot tougher (and still cheaper than elfies I hope?)
You will slay one, but perhaps two: 16 x 4/6 x 2/6 x 3/6 = 1.78). lets keep it on two kills.
The orcs can fight back with two and one boss and will slay one: 2 x 3/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 + 2 x 3/6 x 5/6 = 0.55 + 0.83 = 1.38
Orcs will most probably outnumber, which makes it a draw. So even my unit which wasn't even supposed to do damage can make it a draw. After this turn I lose one ST of course, while you still fight the same. ASF only matters in the first turn though since you have higher initiative. At the same time the chariot will hit as well of course since I was charging, or will I save im for another unit?

How about two choppa orc unit? 1.78 x 6/3 x 5/6 = 3 kills on the orcs instead of two. Orcs perform the same. So this shows again that orcs with choppa+shield rock :D If a small two choppa unit would flank the spearman, that gives 3 / 16 x 5 = 1 kill. So flanking with orc footsluggers on High elves isn't to bad.

Sword masters are indeed another story. It becomes clear that I don't know high elves because I didnt know they have two attacks a piece. Sounds like a great unit and I wouldn't charge em with boar cav.
I guess this unit will get the attention of spear chukkas. at least until yer down to one rankbonus. After that, static CR and big blocks of orcs are my friend again.

But enough about my support. You have good archers as well right? Strong magic, repeater boltthrowers. Not very lickely for me to have all that static CR.

All in all I still think ASF isn't really that much of a bother, with at least one exception: boars vs. swordmasters. Are there others though?

To come back to woodelves. Wood elves musth fight fights on their accord. ASF disrupts this accord, so that's why I think it bothers them.

Urgat
06-09-2008, 22:49
All in all I still think ASF isn't really that much of a bother, with at least one exception: boars vs. swordmasters. Are there others though?
Anything goblin really. My mainstain damage dealing unit is my hoppers. But with ASF, I may as well leave them home: they're just too frail, they NEED to hit first, if they can't, they're dead.

Da GoBBo
07-09-2008, 00:07
True, true. Squigs die to easy for their point cost. I'm getting a bit sidetracked here, but how do you deal with shooty armies with those guys? My guess is they will be shot to pieces at the first opportunity.

neXus6
07-09-2008, 00:22
I'm tempted to say Greenskins are very balanced, in fact TOO balanced to be easily playable in the current environment probably.

Urgat
07-09-2008, 00:30
True, true. Squigs die to easy for their point cost. I'm getting a bit sidetracked here, but how do you deal with shooty armies with those guys? My guess is they will be shot to pieces at the first opportunity.

Well, 3 elements:
1) I take them in units of 7, that way they can take some shots before becoming useless. Since they're -1 to hit (skirmishers), they can take some shots before suffering
2) I take two units of them :p

3) Of course, covers. Keep in mind everything works for them, they can take shelter in buildings if needed. Shelter often include screening by wolves (because what they fear most isn't shots, in fact: it's light cavalry, they're the bane of them).

And if they still die, well, it means my trolls will reach the enemy intact, and they hit just as hard :D

Wintermute
07-09-2008, 11:31
I'm moving this thread to Fantasy General

Wintermute

The_Dark_Lord
07-09-2008, 15:44
all the armies are worked on to get them balanced with every other army, if orcs/goblins were unbalanced, they wouldnt exist

Avian
07-09-2008, 15:58
I would say that the list certainly has issues, but fewer than is commonly claimed.

isidril93
07-09-2008, 16:09
orcs and goblins are not the best army out there but i think that since people have such a large choice they take a bit of each unit. a really good list usually has multiple of each unit (such as for daemon: nurgle core, khorne special and tzeentch rare). fanatics can be a problem but become game-winning when applied in numbers. core night goblins with fanatics, loads of chariots and warmachine are a good way at killing elves. no number of eagles could stop an army full of fanatics all getting loose. take the best and only the best of what O&G have to offer and you will do well. dont waste points on taking stuff that look nice but dont work.

Da GoBBo
07-09-2008, 23:26
all the armies are worked on to get them balanced with every other army, if orcs/goblins were unbalanced, they wouldnt exist

I guess with 20 different armies things will never be balanced, but that's beside the point really. Every armylist can produce nice balanced lists, yes. Some armies though, can just spam this or that and win a big share of their battles (iv never played the skaven army of doom for instance, but I'v heard it was terrible). That doesn't sound balanced to me. Some units are overpriced and others underpriced. That doesn't sound balanced to me either.

Arnizipal
08-09-2008, 11:45
I know many of you don't like Mathhammer, but it can be useful to analyze an isolated incident.

[snip]

Swordmasters vs. Boar Boyz.

[snip]

Orcsnow strike back with 6 - 3 that died. (Frontage of 5 with champion)

3 Attacks * 3/6 = 1.5 Hits + 5/6 = 1.25 Wounds.

HE Swordmasters don't have nearly enough armor to stop this, so:

1.25 * 6/6 = 1.25 Wounds.

You forgot to take the boars into the equasion. Never underestimate the l33t ninja skillz of mounts :p (especially if they have S5 on the charge).

EvC
08-09-2008, 12:05
Nor do I think it even needs commenting on that High Elven Spearmen do in fact regularly best Goblins in a fair combat. That's why Fanatics and Nets exist!

Tarian
12-09-2008, 20:20
You forgot to take the boars into the equasion. Never underestimate the l33t ninja skillz of mounts :p (especially if they have S5 on the charge).

My mistake... I knew I was forgetting something XD

(Honestly, S3 mounts do better than S5... I don't know how either! It defies all MathHammer!)

Condottiere
12-09-2008, 20:37
Actually, you usually don't expect your mounts to do well, and when your expensive S5/Ws4 lance wielding riders cause less casualties than the S3/Ws3 ponies they are riding, it sticks in your mind.

Harwammer
12-09-2008, 20:44
FACT:

Mounts always do better regardless of what is riding them.

The exception to this is high elf arch mages on dragons.

RossS
12-09-2008, 20:53
orcs and goblins are not the best army out there but i think that since people have such a large choice they take a bit of each unit. a really good list usually has multiple of each unit (such as for daemon: nurgle core, khorne special and tzeentch rare). fanatics can be a problem but become game-winning when applied in numbers. core night goblins with fanatics, loads of chariots and warmachine are a good way at killing elves. no number of eagles could stop an army full of fanatics all getting loose. take the best and only the best of what O&G have to offer and you will do well. dont waste points on taking stuff that look nice but dont work.

A very sensible suggestion. My Orc and Gobbo horde is built around two big blocks of Orcs on foot, and two monstrous blocks of Night Gobbos with full complements of fanatics. Then, you get the artillery (spearchuckas crewed by Night Goblins), the Cave Trolls and, on occasion, some Black Orcs. Basically, the horde is designed around the idea of having multiple units perform the same functions. All of this is backed up by an obscene magic phase.

It does the business.

Jabroniville
13-09-2008, 08:57
Your stats are spot on, save the fact that you charged arguably the worst cavalry in the game into arguably the best heavy infantry in the game.

If I played O&G, the only thing getting into combat with Swordmasters would be fanatics, chariots, and magic missiles. Everything else just watches. ;)

I had great luck against Swordmasters with a Chariot (with a Boss) and a Giant. I rolled quite luckily (five wounds on the Impact Hits), but I absolutely DEMOLISHED that unit, though the Giant died. And yeah, shooting at them is great. They're hard-hitting as all hell, but they cannot take a hit AT ALL.

w3rm
07-10-2008, 00:58
are you high??? ok you play elves so 16 elvish archer vs 25 ng and 3 fannys and 8 sr that r 24 inches away. you shoot at spidies so prbly half will hit so thats 8 hits. half those on average will wound. so 4 wounds. armer save of spiders is 5 so 2-3 will probly wound. now lets say 3 wound. thats more than 25 percent. thats a panic test. the night are 16 inces away now so they still cant relese fanatics now assuming that the sr rallied( with 6 LD not likly)you shoot again at spides so 3 wounds another panic test. the spiders flee and the ng just relesed the fantics and they hit u doin 3d6 damage so. hey wait a second yer scewed ahahahahaahahahah elves reek!!!! jk my next army will prbly be high elves heheheheh no but i see your points but with some lucky rolls ull kill em ded!

Wook
07-10-2008, 13:41
Are you having a laugh? HE only need 2 core and get six speical chocies in 2000 pts, allways strike first, can take two dragons in the army and thats just for starters. A pure goblin army ia all but unsuasble, and they don't fiar mutch better with Orc's in them. So what if spider riders ignore dificult terrain you will slap them when they charge, if they charge because they have to take a fear test to do so. With the amount of fire power in an elf army you can make shure that the goblins don't out number you. fanatics are stupidly easy to draw out, or just make the night gobo units panic and they are destroyed. O&G only have one unit of skirmishers to use as a screen, but it takes up a special choice and you have no control over how far it moves.

If you can't beat O&G with high elves you need a lot more practice.