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LionoftheBegs
05-09-2008, 07:23
Now we all know that Tyranids are the eat everything in your path sort of creatures but it suprises me that there is no sign anywhere in the fluff that these two powerful races have ever faced off. I mean there is a prime are for the C'Tan to absorb live.

Am I missing something or have these two never meet each other?

Staurikosaurus
05-09-2008, 07:36
The fluff behind these two armies fighting is interesting but would likely end up coming to a stalemate (irresistable force - Tyranids, meets immovable object - Necrons)

Brucopeloso
05-09-2008, 07:56
Rather unedible obiect! ;->
I guess fluff wise the tyranids would not be very interested in fighting necrons as it would take a lot of effort for no biomass in return...... well maybe if they feel they need a bit more iron in their diet..... ;->

Nicha11
05-09-2008, 08:42
They never meet beacause most Necrons are on world's with no life
So the Tyranids just aren't interested in them.

Iracundus
05-09-2008, 16:02
Now we all know that Tyranids are the eat everything in your path sort of creatures but it suprises me that there is no sign anywhere in the fluff that these two powerful races have ever faced off. I mean there is a prime are for the C'Tan to absorb live.

Am I missing something or have these two never meet each other?

You missed something. In the Tyranid Codex, in the color section it shows a Necron raiding force in the process of being swept away by Kraken Tyranids. In the campaign for Medusa V, Tyranid and Necron forces did clash.

Nan'kar'tyr
05-09-2008, 19:10
I think it has something to do with the fact that Tyranids want biomass, something the Necrons don't have, and Necrons want souls to feed to their gods, which Tyranids don't have; this can be inferred from their lack of a presence in the warp. Seeing as neither side has anything the other wants it is understandable that they do not interact much.

Eidre
05-09-2008, 19:15
If you listen to some of the more heretical fluff, the Nids and the Necrons avoid each other because they're both after the same thing (cleansing the galaxy of all life). And because the Tyranids are actually a massive biological weapon fired at the galaxy by one of the other C'Tan, the Outsider. Not that anyone believes such ridiculous speculations...

Bookwrak
05-09-2008, 19:42
No, they don't, because there's nothing in the fluff to back any of that up. The Necron codex implies the outsider is in a Dyson sphere (the area where a hive fleet tendril changed course to avoid - one of the other stories in the codex mentions how the surrounding area has a stilling effect on the Warp, making it harder to approach the closer you get in the Empyrean). The tyranid codex itself doesn't mention, or even reference the Necrons at all (IIRC).

In general, tombworlds are not a place that's going to draw tyranid interest, being either dead, or possessing low concentrations of biomass, so you are very rarely every going to have large forces of both facing off at the same time. In fact, they might decide it's in their best interests to sit back and watch while the tyranid swarm strips the galaxy of life, and then moves on, leaving the few, shattered survivors easy pickings for them. The only time you're really going to see a large conflict between the two is if tyranids are threatening something of interest to the necrons.

BTW, the C'tan enjoy feeding on the 'life-force' of sentient beings, not their souls.

loveless
05-09-2008, 19:44
The Outsider can't have anything to do with the Tyranids other than floating around in exile in the Dyson Sphere in the middle of Hive Fleet Leviathan.

The Hive Mind exists in the Warp. The Warp is anathema to the C'tan. Ergo, the Hive Mind is unrelated to the C'tan.

That being said, the ultimate goal of the Necrons isn't so much to destroy all life - that's more of a side quest or a means to an end. For instance, they don't want humans dead, they want to harvest humans to feed their essence to the Star Vampires. Their main goal is to serve the C'tan, who, in turn, have the goal of creating absolute order in reality. In other words, the C'tan want to be in charge of everything. Since they can't do anything with the Warp, they plan to shut it off from reality. They have the technology to do this, just not the manpower to implement this (yet). Plus, they have to make sure they have enough of a food source.

To get to my point: Once the C'tan close off the Warp, the Hive Mind will have no way to communicate with the Tyranids and the whole bioweapon that is the Nids will dissipate and cease to be a threat.

Firaxin
06-09-2008, 00:05
*sigh*

Tyranids do engage the necrons in battle and have invaded tombworlds. The necrons are in the 'nid codex (getting "crushed," no less).

Tyranids do not eat just organic matter. They harvest a very impressive fraction of the planet's crust, in addition to its atmosphere and bodies of water and all the vegetation. Several tyranid weapons and armor, such as the rending claws everyone thinks are cheesy, are a direct result of ingesting metallic substances. Rending claws are a result of adamantium ingestion.

Living metal is harvestable, reforgeable and reproducable, as seen in the Ultramarines series by Graham McNeil. Thus, it would be a great addition to the 'nids repetoire of materials. Can you imagine basic gaunts whose carapace protected them and re-knit itself with all the efficiency of a necron warrior, but with the numbers of gaunts as they already are?

HsojVvad
06-09-2008, 00:35
What is with all this Bio Mass stuff? Tyranids devour everything, including minerals, rock, metal, Everything. Just because Necrons don't have any living tissue, dosn't mean that the Tyranids, will not go after the Necrons.

loveless
06-09-2008, 01:38
Come to think of it, it'd be funny to see some Tyranids eat a C'tan.

Eat C'tan. C'tan comes back. Eat C'tan again. C'tan comes back.

Okay, so a C'tan isn't going to be pansy enough to lose to some Nids (in fluff terms, at least), but it'd be a great little scene. Like that one Robot Chicken sketch - Jesus and the Argonauts.

Bookwrak
06-09-2008, 03:11
What is with all this Bio Mass stuff? Tyranids devour everything, including minerals, rock, metal, Everything. Just because Necrons don't have any living tissue, dosn't mean that the Tyranids, will not go after the Necrons.

Where are you getting the what they eat from? If tyranids ate all that, there wouldn't even be a planet left behind after a hive fleet goes through.

As long as they don't go making an obstacle out of themselves, there's nothing the Necrons have that the 'nids want. They'll never suffer a genestealer infestation, and summon a hive fleet that way. You rarely find them on planets teeming with life that the 'nids would want to harvest. Unless Necrons go out of their way to announce their presence, large scale run ins with Tyranids are going to be very rare.

Also, Firaxin, a page reference for when Necrons are getting crushed?

Firaxin
06-09-2008, 04:20
Also, Firaxin, a page reference for when Necrons are getting crushed?

Pg 59.

I agree that there is little to actually draw a 'nid fleet to most tomb worlds, but that does not mean the 'nids will ignore a tombworld they do stumble across.

There's some report from the inquisition about a world eaten by the 'nids. It goes into detail about the time it took to happen and what was taken from the planet. Not sure exactly where this report is (its prolly on the Aussie site or something) but it confirmed that the 'nids will eat a mind-boggling percentage of a planet's mass before moving on.

As for why there's any part of a planet left remaining... I suppose that would be because of the cost vs return that the 'nids get. As they go deeper and deeper down they will tend to get diminishing results, but at a cost of higher energy expended to obtain those diminishing results. There comes a point where you're losing more than your gaining. Since the 'nids want to take as much as they feasibly can before moving on, it makes no sense to needlessly expend energy.

EDIT: Here it is: http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/tyranoforming-worlds/1/

Read that. It states over 100,800,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms of "soil and minerals" were removed, among other things, and that the planet's diameter was reduced by 4.2%. Holy ****!

This all happened within 100 days, too...

Surgency
06-09-2008, 05:26
sounds like some pretty convincing arguements that the nids do, in fact, eat planets :p

HsojVvad
06-09-2008, 19:29
Thank you Firaxin very much. I read it in the Tyranid codex, how it consumes planets. There is even pics of Tyranid Spires that go very hight into the atmosphere so the Tyranid ships can connect to them so they can get their "food"

Why would they have Spires if they don't eat minerals, rocks and what not?

Bookwrak
06-09-2008, 21:23
To transport water, gas, and digested biomass up to the waiting bioships.

Somerandomidiot
07-09-2008, 06:37
You also have to consider that the necrons don't actually live on the planet, but instead are in their own dimension, accessible from the tomb world. Not sure if the 'nids can see this or not, or if they can even grasp the concept.

CthulhuDalek
07-09-2008, 07:33
Necrons do not feed the C'tan souls. Souls are Warp Energy, big no no.

Fluff seems to suggest that the 'Nids would land on a Tombworld as long as it had been repopulated by other life forms(Human/xenos colonies and new vegetation) then they would be forced into conflict, as the 'Crons would most likely think the nids were a tad too chaotic for their taste.

Nids would probably think of Necrons the same way as a cat watching a remote controlled car. They can't *really* eat it, but they can try. Not to mention the Tyranids are the fastest evolving organisms in the Galaxy--within a few hundred years they will most likely evolve to the point where living metal is as easily digested as iron ore etc.

I think a Tyranid could "eat" a C'tan. If it was weakened enough by warp energy(Which the nids absorb/harness for their own uses!) Imagine a zoanthrope type battle ship that could warp blast a C'tan, acting like a psychic conductor. It'd sure be funny...

DarkMatter2
07-09-2008, 10:59
IMHO the Necrons are somewhat outmatched, although the results on the tabletop rarely reflect that.

This idea that the Tyranids and Necrons share the same goal is a big misunderstanding - the Necrons want to enslave life and the Tyranids want to devour it.

If the Tyranids succeed in scouring the galaxy of life, the Necrons would be completely hosed.

Kyrios
07-09-2008, 13:29
The reason this doesn't pop up in fluff very often, IMHO, is that it doesn't fit in the exciting tale matrix (can't find a goog word for it).
Every story needs someone to identyfy with who is attacked by the unbeatable faceless terror.
'nids vs necrons would be two faceless unbeatable terrors, not much to identify with.

Firaxin
07-09-2008, 17:17
Nids would probably think of Necrons the same way as a cat watching a remote controlled car. They can't *really* eat it, but they can try.


Do you have an evidence for this other than you personal opinion? We know 'nids eat materials such as adamantium. I don't see why they can't eat something like living metal.

StarFyreXXX
07-09-2008, 17:55
I'd imagine the more powerful, necron weapons would rise from tomb worlds, or they would activate the aeionic orbs and start levelling entire Hive fleets..... hehe

it would be a total massacre on both sides..but it be good.

Now in terms of story/fluff, C'tan would just destroy all..but oh well :)

Sanjay

Morganstern
07-09-2008, 18:30
Necrons may actually go after nids, necrons hate all life no matter what form it takes.

zanotam
07-09-2008, 18:44
I'd imagine the more powerful, necron weapons would rise from tomb worlds, or they would activate the aeionic orbs and start levelling entire Hive fleets..... hehe

it would be a total massacre on both sides..but it be good.

Now in terms of story/fluff, C'tan would just destroy all..but oh well :)

Sanjay

I just don't get this. Why do people have some sort of bias that makes them assume the C'tan will completely destroy the Tyranids? From what I've seen, the Tyranids make something like the enslaver plague seem like nothing (I'd go as far as saying they seem suspiciously like something a desperate individual or group with huge amounts of bioengineering knowledge and a hate of the Necrons would create) and by stripping not only all organic matter, but the oceans, atmospheres, and crust, they make it nigh impossible for life to come back for billions of years, which seems to me to give the advantage to the Tyranids not the C'tan and there Necrontyr slaves.

victorpofa
07-09-2008, 23:14
I just don't get this. Why do people have some sort of bias that makes them assume the C'tan will completely destroy the Tyranids? From what I've seen, the Tyranids make something like the enslaver plague seem like nothing (I'd go as far as saying they seem suspiciously like something a desperate individual or group with huge amounts of bioengineering knowledge and a hate of the Necrons would create) and by stripping not only all organic matter, but the oceans, atmospheres, and crust, they make it nigh impossible for life to come back for billions of years, which seems to me to give the advantage to the Tyranids not the C'tan and there Necrontyr slaves.

Most planets will eventually out-gas enough to create a new atmosphere as long as the planet's magnetic field and gravity are not altered by the Tyranid scouring. Those planets are effectively dead forever unless they are reduced to a molten state. Then you might get enough out-gassing in a short enough period of time to get a new atmosphere and potentially life before the star burns out.

Lancaster
08-09-2008, 01:37
Do you have an evidence for this other than you personal opinion? We know 'nids eat materials such as adamantium. I don't see why they can't eat something like living metal.

Read the Necron Codex. You can't eat living metal, the "dead" necrons teleport away in their entirety, they leave no wreckage.

Zagstruk
08-09-2008, 01:56
normally I don't post on this subject because it never leads anywhere but I would actually like to say something. Yes the Tyranids can eat necrons(or at least parts of them before they warp away) and yes the tyranids can use living metal, think think of it, a hive fleet is essentially a giant entity, it needs everything IN BALANCE. If the tyranids fight necrons they won't get any biomass, just metal and you can't create metal gaunts. Then factor in that any large scale battle would be very costly to the tyranids in terms of biomass, and they would end up losing even if they won. However at this time I don't think the necrons would want to attack the tyranids, they're doing a great job of distracting people while the necrons re-awaken. Pretty much at this time there is minimal reason for either side to attack each other.

Plus the Tyranids are a very spaceship dependant species, but their individual ships aren't that good, and very relient on escorts to shield them(IIRC), perhaps it isn't smart to tick off a race whose capital ships have a weapon designed to take out large numbers of light ships and can attack anywhere, anytime?

Firaxin
08-09-2008, 02:02
Read the Necron Codex. You can't eat living metal, the "dead" necrons teleport away in their entirety, they leave no wreckage.

Not true, the admech have captured several necron bodies before. The only problem is they are so badly damaged there is little to reverse engineer, all they're left with is basically the mechanical chassis itself. Which is composed of, you guessed it, living metal. I don't see why 'nids couldn't damage necrons in the same way and then consume them.

Also if certain Black Library books are to be believed, you can harvest living metal from dormant necron structures, who won't even notice because the metal regenerates itself. You have to remember that living metal doesn't teleport itself away, the necrons do.

Lancaster
08-09-2008, 02:08
Not true, the admech have captured several necron bodies before. The only problem is they are so badly damaged there is little to reverse engineer, all they're left with is basically the mechanical chassis itself. Which is composed of, you guessed it, living metal. I don't see why 'nids couldn't damage necrons in the same way and then consume them.

Also if certain Black Library books are to be believed, you can harvest living metal from dormant necron structures, who won't even notice because the metal regenerates itself. You have to remember that living metal doesn't teleport itself away, the necrons do.

Actually, now thay I am rereading it, it has parts that say both. There are even pictures of 'captured weapons.' I hate inconsistancies.

Firaxin
08-09-2008, 02:22
I hate inconsistancies.

I don't think they're inconsistancies. I think it makes perfect sense that a necron warrior could be damaged badly enough to not be able to warp away.

hawo0313
08-09-2008, 11:29
My view on the topic is that the two races barely cross each other for they have little reason to fight also the tyranids would be nearly impossible to detect due to:
1.necrons are "dead".
2.the necrons are buried underground in tombs/catacombs.
3.what can the tyranids gain from eating/trying to eat necrons.

hawo0313
08-09-2008, 11:30
srry i mean necrons would be nearly impossible to detect

Firaxin
08-09-2008, 14:19
If you had read the thread, you'd know that what tyranids have to gain from eating necrons has already been discussed, and you wouldn't have to ask that question.

CthulhuDalek
08-09-2008, 23:52
IMHO the Necrons are somewhat outmatched, although the results on the tabletop rarely reflect that.

This idea that the Tyranids and Necrons share the same goal is a big misunderstanding - the Necrons want to enslave life and the Tyranids want to devour it.

If the Tyranids succeed in scouring the galaxy of life, the Necrons would be completely hosed.

I thought the Necrons goal was to destroy all living things, not enslave them.

If nids ate everything, there'd just be one big race for the Necrons to try to "Exterminate! Exterminate!"... and it would be more difficult seeing as the nids will have absorbed the most psychic races.

Iracundus
09-09-2008, 00:59
I thought the Necrons goal was to destroy all living things, not enslave them.


Incorrect. The Necron goal as clearly shown in their Codex is to serve their C'tan masters by finishing their Great Work and cutting off a significant portion of the galaxy from the warp, creating the equivalent of a cattle pen to breed sentient beings for the C'tan to feed off of at leisure.

CthulhuDalek
09-09-2008, 08:16
Incorrect. The Necron goal as clearly shown in their Codex is to serve their C'tan masters by finishing their Great Work and cutting off a significant portion of the galaxy from the warp, creating the equivalent of a cattle pen to breed sentient beings for the C'tan to feed off of at leisure.

It's been pointed out that the C'tan want to create absolute order in the universe. The separation of warpspace and realspace would be to prevent the C'tan from having any weakness, as well as stopping "chaos" in the universe.

Popidge
09-09-2008, 10:33
It's been pointed out that the C'tan want to create absolute order in the universe. The separation of warpspace and realspace would be to prevent the C'tan from having any weakness, as well as stopping "chaos" in the universe.
And yet those hypocritical fools sitting on thier big plush seats on Terra have the nerve to call Necrons "unholy abominations"... even though the Necrons (at least as the C'tan would have it) are trying to close off the warp to the materium. If they did that, Chaos would be pretty boned.

back on track, from what i've read, it'd seem that at least the Tyranids have a degree of wariness in regards to Necrons.
Whilst it is true that they can digest Living Metal, and use it, it'd be like drinking nothing but Guiness as a diet (Protip; Don't. Just, don't). Necron tomb worlds are usually lacking in biomass, and it's that biomass which would be needed to regenerate any losses incurred against necrons (and obviously, with the advanced necron technology, the nids would take quite a few deaths).
Maybe the hive mind is incredibly clever, and knows that if it eats everything that could wake necrons up, and lets the 'crons and gods sleep as long as they can, then there is minimal chance of the C'tan sealing the warp from realspace, thus destroying the whole hive-mind thing.

Maybe, just maybe, it's all part of a plan. Perhaps the hive mind is taking this seemingly cautious approach so that it can build up as large a combined hive fleet as possible for a truly epic battle between the fully awakened forces of the C'tan versus those who rely on the warp for power.

CthulhuDalek
10-09-2008, 09:42
And yet those hypocritical fools sitting on thier big plush seats on Terra have the nerve to call Necrons "unholy abominations"... even though the Necrons (at least as the C'tan would have it) are trying to close off the warp to the materium. If they did that, Chaos would be pretty boned.

back on track, from what i've read, it'd seem that at least the Tyranids have a degree of wariness in regards to Necrons.
Whilst it is true that they can digest Living Metal, and use it, it'd be like drinking nothing but Guiness as a diet (Protip; Don't. Just, don't). Necron tomb worlds are usually lacking in biomass, and it's that biomass which would be needed to regenerate any losses incurred against necrons (and obviously, with the advanced necron technology, the nids would take quite a few deaths).
Maybe the hive mind is incredibly clever, and knows that if it eats everything that could wake necrons up, and lets the 'crons and gods sleep as long as they can, then there is minimal chance of the C'tan sealing the warp from realspace, thus destroying the whole hive-mind thing.

Maybe, just maybe, it's all part of a plan. Perhaps the hive mind is taking this seemingly cautious approach so that it can build up as large a combined hive fleet as possible for a truly epic battle between the fully awakened forces of the C'tan versus those who rely on the warp for power.

Here's how I play it out in my head--

Tyranids take on the Orks like they are doing now. They are simultaneously eating humans and picking off eldar here and there. Once they have cleared out most of those threats, they keep moving towards the Eye of Terror, a psychic smogasbord for them! Once they've reached that point the C'tan/Necrons will be at their knees as the Nids will have eaten the entire warp(All creatures and their souls) and all that will be left are the soulless 'Crons.

Epic battle, as you said.

The imperium would be extremely boned if the C'tan cut off reality from warpspace--more than chaos would be. No more Warp Travel+no more souls--people would probably go insane.

The_Outsider
10-09-2008, 09:49
Fluffwise necrons are at the top of the food chain, so while the tyrand threat is beyond what the imperium can deal with and the eldar no longer have the numbers to stop them the necrons are more than likely of stopping a hive fleet dead in its tracks were they to mobilise more than a raiding force.

Iracundus
10-09-2008, 13:28
The Necrons like the Eldar may go on and on about how superior and unstoppable they are, but in the fluff, as recently as Medusa V they were decisively thwarted by the "inferior" races. Nor was that an entirely insignificant little raid but an actual attempt towards some progress of the Great Work. At some point there's going to need to be greater fluff justification for why the Necrons/C'tan still have the kid gloves on (aside from the behind the scenes reason of game balance).

The_Outsider
10-09-2008, 15:55
Probably because anything the newly awoken vanguard necron forces have encountered doesn't warrant large scale mobilisation. An aeonic orb is massive overkill for anything short of a titan company.

Not to mention things like pylons are meant for shooting down spaceships.

Supreme Archon Orlok
10-09-2008, 18:59
if the necrons were to mobilise to a proper invasion force and not just little raiding forces all the other races may as well just commit suicide.

Tyranids vs. Necrons (necron invasion force like mentioned above)

IMO i think that the Necrons would completley destroy the tyranids

HsojVvad
10-09-2008, 23:07
Here's how I play it out in my head--

Once they have cleared out most of those threats, they keep moving towards the Eye of Terror, a psychic smogasbord for them!
The imperium would be extremely boned if the C'tan cut off reality from warpspace--more than chaos would be. No more Warp Travel+no more souls--people would probably go insane.

I thought they were heading toward Earth.

Why would there be no Warp Travel? They don't use the Warp like the Imperium does, or I am shure they don't. Just like the Tau, the Tau don't use the warp, espically for travel, but they still do travel the stars differently. I guess the Necrons too, since they don't have physic powers as well.

I think the Tryanids travel differently, but could be wrong.

BarryBurton
10-09-2008, 23:35
I actually thought that the Necrons were closer to the centre of the galaxy (mars and such) so the two races wont really meet each other for a long time save for small skirmishes.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 00:19
I thought they were heading toward Earth.

Why would there be no Warp Travel? They don't use the Warp like the Imperium does, or I am shure they don't. Just like the Tau, the Tau don't use the warp, espically for travel, but they still do travel the stars differently. I guess the Necrons too, since they don't have physic powers as well.

I think the Tryanids travel differently, but could be wrong.

If the Necrons closed the Warp off from reality, the Imperium would not be able to use warp travel as there would be no way to go into the warp.

The Necrons are the only race that benefits from this(Although the Tau probably wouldn't be too affected.)

Also, no one really knows how powerful a full scale necron assault would be--and no one knows the vastness of the Tyranid race. Both races are shrouded in mystery-- they both have the "We have no clue how large or powerful they are..."

Plus, my suggestion is that the Tyranids would have to eat some more psychically attuned races and make evolutionary adaptations to destroy the necrons. And we know how fast they evolve. It's just a matter of time :)

Lord Raneus
11-09-2008, 00:26
Fluffwise, I'm convinced Necrons are the perfect weapon against Tyranids.

First and foremost, they leave no biomass whatsoever, from both fallen attackers AND defenders. This is huge; even if the Tyranids seize the planet they will have zero biomass to recoup their losses; the Hive Fleets will only shrink. Gauss weaponry also cannot run out of ammunition; thus, Necrons can mow down Gaunts to their heart's content, never having to worry about ammo constraints, and things like Tomb Stalkers and Pylons as well as the as-yet-unseen horrors that still lie within the Tomb Worlds will make Tyranid Gargantuan Creatures **** their pants.

Second, the Necrons' incredible teleportation skills allow them to continuously whittle away at the 'Nids while taking virtually no casualties in return, and unlike the Tyranids the Necrons will actually be repairing their losses.

Three, we've seen that Necrons have the ability to scour planets clean; they could do this for light-years around and then engage the Tyranids in hit-and-run raids with their incredibly capable starships, whittling down the Hive Fleet which can't gain any biomass to recoup its losses before dealing the deathblow in ground combat.

Four, if Tyranids begin to overrun the galaxy the C'tan will be forced to intervene. They will have their robotic minions take the field against the Tyranids, I'm convinced, if for nothing else than to save their prey from total destruction. This is only in a worst-case scenario, however.

Killgore
11-09-2008, 00:28
Fluffwise, I'm convinced Necrons are the perfect weapon against Tyranids.

First and foremost, they not only leave no biomass whatsoever, from both fallen attackers AND defenders. This is huge; even if the Tyranids seize the planet they will have zero biomass to recoup their losses; the Hive Fleets will only shrink. Gauss weaponry also cannot run out of ammunition; thus, Necrons can mow down Gaunts to their heart's content, never having to worry about ammo constraints.

Second, the Necrons' incredible teleportation skills allow them to continuously whittle away at the 'Nids while taking virtually no casualties in return, and unlike the Tyranids the Necrons will actually be repairing their losses.

Three, we've seen that Necrons have the ability to scour planets clean; they could do this for light-years around and then engage the Tyranids in hit-and-run raids with their incredibly capable starships, whittling down the Hive Fleet which can't gain any biomass to recoup its losses before dealing the deathblow in ground combat.

Four, if Tyranids begin to overrun the galaxy the C'tan will be forced to intervene. They will have their robotic minions take the field against the Tyranids, I'm convinced, if for nothing else than to save their prey from total destruction. This is only in a worst-case scenario, however.

If the teleport nodes in the Tomb complexs where destroyed where would the Necrons teleport too if there was no other Tomb worlds in range?

With Necrons unable to teleport when on the brink of death the Tyranids would have a tasty mineral meal ready to reinforce the hivefleet

HsojVvad
11-09-2008, 01:42
Remeber, Tyranids don't just eat biomass, they consume everything. Plastics, minerals, rocks, water, gasses, Everything, not just organic materials. So Necrons are just as deliscious for us LOL

olmsted
11-09-2008, 01:59
who says there are even ranges on these thing?

to say these two races wouldnt fight makes no sense in the grim and darkness.

look in the new BRB page 51 or 59 has an artist rendering of daemons fighting nids!

why would nids and daemons fight? daemons dont leave biomass they just go bleagh and go back to the warp. (probably not)

, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a nerd defending a major threat to the imperium, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 01:59
Remeber, Tyranids don't just eat biomass, they consume everything. Plastics, minerals, rocks, water, gasses, Everything, not just organic materials. So Necrons are just as deliscious for us LOL

There seems to be a limit on what nids eat.

They live a ball of rock in their wake.

I think within a few decades they will be able to adapt to eating living metal as if it was regular organic matter.

Not to mention that the nids have devoured an entire galaxy previously(At least)

Necrons may be able to shoot a lot of nids down, but the power of the hivemind combined with the sheer mass of troops sent out means that enough could break through to rip the crons to shreds in combat.

Again, there may be things in the tombs capable of huge destruction--and there may be nids we haven't encountered yet which could easily take down an entire planet.

Nids are able to match almost any technological advancement easily. How long till they "grow" teleporters and the ability to shift through dimensions?

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 02:01
who says there are even ranges on these thing?

why would nids and daemons fight? daemons dont leave biomass they just go bleagh and go back to the warp. (probably not)



Because Nids also eat Warp energy. :)

CHOOBER SNIPES
11-09-2008, 02:28
truly i believe it only matters WHEN the battle takes place. If the necrons wait, they'll lose. They have incredible hidden technology but (i may be wrong on this) it is not actually advancing, it is just unused as of yet. Tyranids on the other hand are evolving incredibly quickly. It seems that if the necrons fight with everything NOW, they will completely destroy tyranids, if they wait, they will lose. its one of those y=5x y=x+500 things. One is much bigger now, but the gap is closing and the other will pull ahead eventually.

And i bet the tyranids started out only eating biomass... then they started tasting rocks, and gasses and yummy minerals and plastics too. who knows what they will do next? and thats why we cant definitely make answers in this argument. Maybe they will cap out their power in 5 years ( in the 40K universe), we dont know, maybe gaunts will suddenly become space marine genestealer crosses (didnt they have those once??) if the tyranids manage to replicate space marines.

Firaxin
11-09-2008, 03:51
First and foremost, they leave no biomass whatsoever, from both fallen attackers AND defenders.
a) Nids do not only eat biomass. This has been pointed out in this thread.

b) Actually, sufficiently dead necrons do leave their living metal shells behind. This has been proved by several different cases in the fluff, including the necron codex itself.



Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor.
Actually he doesn't. Not sure where you get that from. Besides, Chewbacca died, so does it really matter?


There seems to be a limit on what nids eat.

They live a ball of rock in their wake.
As has been mentioned, this is because of the law of diminishing return. Eventually the nids are expending more energy to obtain resources from the planet than they are getting resources from the planet. Just like how with our very own mines/drills/etc on earth, we don't go all the way down to the mantle before starting a new mine somewhere else.



Not to mention that the nids have devoured an entire galaxy previously(At least)
We're past that. It's now official canon that they've eaten "dozens."


truly i believe it only matters WHEN the battle takes place. If the necrons wait, they'll lose. They have incredible hidden technology but (i may be wrong on this) it is not actually advancing, it is just unused as of yet. Tyranids on the other hand are evolving incredibly quickly. It seems that if the necrons fight with everything NOW, they will completely destroy tyranids, if they wait, they will lose. its one of those y=5x y=x+500 things. One is much bigger now, but the gap is closing and the other will pull ahead eventually.
I agree.



maybe gaunts will suddenly become space marine genestealer crosses (didnt they have those once??) if the tyranids manage to replicate space marines.
They already have. According to the codex (actually to be honest i can't remember if it was the most recent or the last one) tyrant guard are what you get when you cross marines with 'nids.

olmsted
11-09-2008, 04:02
Actually he doesn't. Not sure where you get that from. Besides, Chewbacca died, so does it really matter?

This quote was taken before the crappy 2nd triology came out and ruined the story.

also you dont know what the chewbacca defense is do you?

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 05:47
This quote was taken before the crappy 2nd triology came out and ruined the story.

also you dont know what the chewbacca defense is do you?


I think you killed Kenny.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 05:53
As has been mentioned, this is because of the law of diminishing return. Eventually the nids are expending more energy to obtain resources from the planet than they are getting resources from the planet. Just like how with our very own mines/drills/etc on earth, we don't go all the way down to the mantle before starting a new mine somewhere else.


It seems that nids may not want to eat just rocks though. If nids can use those rocks they might as well crack the planet apart and use every bit of it. Tyranids would never be expending more energy than needed because they reabsorb everything.

The only case of nids leaving planets because it was less profitable for them is when they started attacking backwater planets with lone ships at random intervals so no one could muster a defense. Those planets would be stripped of some life(or all if time would permit) but it doesn't make sense why the nids would spend so much time eating most of the planet and leaving some nice rock behind when there was nothing threatening their eating patterns.

Most likely the reason nids don't eat the entire planet itself is the imagery that GW gets from it. It allows nice settings for fluff and to be basically "fossils" to be investigated by inquisitors and explorators. Very similar to the "space hulk" type ship in Alien.

olmsted
11-09-2008, 06:00
because theres no nutrition in rocks. they pretty much have nothing to contribute to the daily feeding of nids.

everything else has some sort of mineral and nutrition that can be used. rocks are in a way blank slates made of in an elemental way of nothinginess i believe. i mean i dont know of any animal that eats rocks to gain nutrition.

(mind you rocks are differents from the many various forms of limestone, etc so on and so forth.)

Kasqit
11-09-2008, 06:35
The c-tan want souls thus they harvest populations... now what happens when the tyranids eat everything? No more souls for the c-tan to harvest ... i don't think they would stand by and let that happen.
This also means if all the populations are completely wiped out then the c-tan will not be able to start the cycle of harvest over again.
That is why the necrons would fight the tyranids.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 06:36
because theres no nutrition in rocks. they pretty much have nothing to contribute to the daily feeding of nids.

everything else has some sort of mineral and nutrition that can be used. rocks are in a way blank slates made of in an elemental way of nothinginess i believe. i mean i dont know of any animal that eats rocks to gain nutrition.

(mind you rocks are differents from the many various forms of limestone, etc so on and so forth.)

Rocks to help with digestion? Ahahaha.

Well that's what I'm saying is that Nids don't consume everything. They don't metabolise it all either. But they could probably eat rock and use it to reinforce armor or some such nonsense... ahaha

Iracundus
11-09-2008, 08:44
It seems that nids may not want to eat just rocks though. If nids can use those rocks they might as well crack the planet apart and use every bit of it. Tyranids would never be expending more energy than needed because they reabsorb everything.


Incorrect. Please read up on some biology first as well as some more Tyranid background. It takes energy input to extract energy from food. It is possible to have sometihng that is technically digestible but which costs more energy to digest than you get back from it. Real life example for humans is celery.

Also the Tyranid fleets expand their numbers as they feed, as evidenced by the fluff on Tyranids in BFG which describes the hiveships as calving, so in essence the amount of energy needed by the fleet on a daily basis will increase in proportion to their numbers. At some point the amount of energy to be gained from further extracting efforts (and energy input) will not justify the growing fleet feeding further. That is when it is time to move on. The rationale is no different from why a top end predator like a lion or cheetah might move on from a kill even when there might be some bits of meat left on the bones. Quite simply, the marginal extra gain is outweighed by the amount of time, energy, and effort necessary.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 08:51
Incorrect. Please read up on some biology first as well as some more Tyranid background. It takes energy input to extract energy from food. It is possible to have sometihng that is technically digestible but which costs more energy to digest than you get back from it. Real life example for humans is celery.

Also the Tyranid fleets expand their numbers as they feed, as evidenced by the fluff on Tyranids in BFG which describes the hiveships as calving, so in essence the amount of energy needed by the fleet on a daily basis will increase in proportion to their numbers. At some point the amount of energy to be gained from further extracting efforts (and energy input) will not justify the growing fleet feeding further. That is when it is time to move on. The rationale is no different from why a top end predator like a lion or cheetah might move on from a kill even when there might be some bits of meat left on the bones. Quite simply, the marginal extra gain is outweighed by the amount of time, energy, and effort necessary.

Except that nids are not lions or cheetahs. The "heat" and other such energy that would be lost in digestion or by metabolizing the food would most likely be recycled as part of a tyranid's superior evolution. Why wouldn't they have evolved something like this?

I'm surprised nids wouldn't also use photosynthesis or some such energy converter(They probably do though...)

Iracundus
11-09-2008, 09:08
Except that nids are not lions or cheetahs. The "heat" and other such energy that would be lost in digestion or by metabolizing the food would most likely be recycled as part of a tyranid's superior evolution. Why wouldn't they have evolved something like this?


There is such a thing as the laws of thermodynamics. Nothing can be 100% efficient. The Tyranids are supposed to be a super predator, however that doesn't mean they have a carte blanche to break the laws of physics and the universe. There is also the energy expended to lift material up from a planet's gravity well.



I'm surprised nids wouldn't also use photosynthesis or some such energy converter(They probably do though...)

Again, please read up some more on biology, physics, and Tyranid background first as some of your points would be very easily answered via that means. The Tyranids do use photosynthesis from the solar vanes on their hiveships, to the use of photosynthesizing flora on the surface acting to strip nutrients from the soil. The Tyranids have been shown or implied to use just about every form of energy gathering and metabolism that is used on Earth.

angels of awesome
11-09-2008, 09:41
do tyranids have a soul

Zazoo
11-09-2008, 11:03
Genestealers are the heralds of the Tyranids.
The more genestealers the bigger the "call" to the tyranids.

Necron worlds only have genestealer invations if there are other race(s) on the same planet so the likelyhood of tyrannids actually seeking out necrons are slim.

Killgore
11-09-2008, 11:16
Genestealers are the heralds of the Tyranids.
The more genestealers the bigger the "call" to the tyranids.

Necron worlds only have genestealer invations if there are other race(s) on the same planet so the likelyhood of tyrannids actually seeking out necrons are slim.

Theres also Tyranid scout drones

not every invasion is led by a Genesteeler infestation

Lord Raneus
11-09-2008, 13:27
It seems that nids may not want to eat just rocks though. If nids can use those rocks they might as well crack the planet apart and use every bit of it. Tyranids would never be expending more energy than needed because they reabsorb everything.

The only case of nids leaving planets because it was less profitable for them is when they started attacking backwater planets with lone ships at random intervals so no one could muster a defense. Those planets would be stripped of some life(or all if time would permit) but it doesn't make sense why the nids would spend so much time eating most of the planet and leaving some nice rock behind when there was nothing threatening their eating patterns.

Most likely the reason nids don't eat the entire planet itself is the imagery that GW gets from it. It allows nice settings for fluff and to be basically "fossils" to be investigated by inquisitors and explorators. Very similar to the "space hulk" type ship in Alien.

I remember a fluff bit saying how all the Tyranids leave behind is a ball of rock and metal structures, everything else stripped off the planet. This would seem to indicate that they can't eat living metal. However, even if they could, almost no Necrons would actually remain behind to be eaten and the Necrons are fully capable of stripping planets as well, denying the Tyranids vital biomass.

I stand by my belief that the Necrons are uniquely suited to beating the Tyranids. They can deny them almost all biomass and mass in general on the planet. They can fire without worrying about ammo. They're incredibly tough, and fearless; the Shadow in the Warp, one of the great difficulties against Tyranids for the Imperium, will not affect them one bit; they will still be able to communicate and travel.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 14:54
There is such a thing as the laws of thermodynamics. Nothing can be 100% efficient. The Tyranids are supposed to be a super predator, however that doesn't mean they have a carte blanche to break the laws of physics and the universe. There is also the energy expended to lift material up from a planet's gravity well.



Again, please read up some more on biology, physics, and Tyranid background first as some of your points would be very easily answered via that means. The Tyranids do use photosynthesis from the solar vanes on their hiveships, to the use of photosynthesizing flora on the surface acting to strip nutrients from the soil. The Tyranids have been shown or implied to use just about every form of energy gathering and metabolism that is used on Earth.

No, but I'm sure a nid would exploit the heat being released during digestion to power some other process. 90-99 percent efficient...

And I've already said they probably do. How does reading up on either biology or physics allow me greater insight into a tyranid's stated feeding habits? I was not sure if they had mentioned photosynthesis in their fluff, though it would be a logical function. I had extrapolated that the nids absorb photosynthesizing flora, but whether they were Tyranid in origin I was not sure.

CthulhuDalek
11-09-2008, 14:58
do tyranids have a soul

No.

Though, whether the Hive Mind is a warp entity or a mass soul *is* debatable.

Fluffwise atm, nids are described as soulless.

Firaxin
11-09-2008, 16:58
I remember a fluff bit saying how all the Tyranids leave behind is a ball of rock and metal structures, everything else stripped off the planet. This would seem to indicate that they can't eat living metal.
I would ignore it as a fluff anomaly, as every source i've seen sites tyranids as stripping the planet completely bare. I point again to this inquisitorial file:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/tyranoforming-worlds/1/



I stand by my belief that the Necrons are uniquely suited to beating the Tyranids.
I don't think anyone is denying that at this point. We're just focusing on: can they eat necrons at all (yes) and if so, why don't they eat the entire planet?


No, but I'm sure a nid would exploit the heat being released during digestion to power some other process. 90-99 percent efficient...

Please read about celery. Digesting a rock is even harder. Besides, 'nids can't digest the magma cores of planets, as it would melt through any tyranid trying to collect it/spore towers would have no solid surface to latch to and thus wouldn't be able to transport it to the ships in orbit (it would melt too, in any case). So 'nids can't go past the crust cause it would kill them. Then there's the fact that the farther down you go, the harder the rock gets to digest, until you're spending more energy digesting it than you are getting from it, even if nothing is wasted.

It takes energy to produce the enzymes that break down the rock. The more/stronger enzymes you need, the more energy. Simple biology.

DarkMatter2
12-09-2008, 02:55
Probably because anything the newly awoken vanguard necron forces have encountered doesn't warrant large scale mobilisation.

I'm not sure that that follows given that, during the battles on Medusa V Imperial forces destroyed several Necron Tomb Stalker titans.

I agree with Iracundus - at some point the Necrons have to stop falling back on this "OMG the best stuff hasn't even risen yet because we are soooo leet" reasoning.

olmsted
12-09-2008, 04:23
Please read about celery. Digesting a rock is even harder. Besides, 'nids can't digest the magma cores of planets, as it would melt through any tyranid trying to collect it/spore towers would have no solid surface to latch to and thus wouldn't be able to transport it to the ships in orbit (it would melt too, in any case). So 'nids can't go past the crust cause it would kill them. Then there's the fact that the farther down you go, the harder the rock gets to digest, until you're spending more energy digesting it than you are getting from it, even if nothing is wasted.

It takes energy to produce the enzymes that break down the rock. The more/stronger enzymes you need, the more energy. Simple biology.

as far as we know there is nothing that can get near that heat. as far as the hive mind knows im sure theres hundreds of natural solutions.

zanotam
12-09-2008, 05:38
, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a nerd defending a major threat to the imperium, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

Resistance is futile, nothing can beat the Chewbacca defence guys, and people, this is the far future of the 42nd millenium, get with the times.

The_Outsider
12-09-2008, 08:38
I'm not sure that that follows given that, during the battles on Medusa V Imperial forces destroyed several Necron Tomb Stalker titans.

I agree with Iracundus - at some point the Necrons have to stop falling back on this "OMG the best stuff hasn't even risen yet because we are soooo leet" reasoning.

Perhaps, but that is just the same as many players claiming tyranids are unbeatable because there are so many of them.

Thats said, using a player orientated campaign to justify fluff is usually a bad idea (as in DE did really, really well during medusa, but their fluff consisted of "went home, didn't overthrow vect, had golden grahams for breakfast").

WH40KAj
12-09-2008, 08:58
I'm not sure that that follows given that, during the battles on Medusa V Imperial forces destroyed several Necron Tomb Stalker titans.

I agree with Iracundus - at some point the Necrons have to stop falling back on this "OMG the best stuff hasn't even risen yet because we are soooo leet" reasoning.

They're just playing a card we can play too, you've only seen the tendrils of the great devourer ladies and gentlemen- and the tips at that, when the full beast is here- what chance do you think any really has? Even the guard need to mobilse 150% just to halt us, honestly... necrons and nids versus in my opinion :p

WH40KAj