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khorne808
06-09-2008, 08:44
army do you think profited off from 5th ed?
i think eldar

Radium
06-09-2008, 08:57
Tau.

Decoay launchers, TLOS and Run really made the day for the cows in space.

ehlijen
06-09-2008, 09:41
All of them.

marv335
06-09-2008, 10:20
Without a doubt Orks are king of the hill in 5th.
The extensive cover saves and running cancelled out their only real weakness.

Burning Star IV
06-09-2008, 10:26
I say orks too. It was already good to have **** tons of troops, and now its even better? Orks indeed.

MALICIOUS LOGIC
06-09-2008, 11:00
I do agree that Orks are also very strong. The new rules almost seem custom tailored for them.

But I suspect that Marines will profit the most. We'll have to see how the new Marine codex plays. But some of their abilities seem to just ignore the rules. Choose to pass/fail morale, assault after deep strike, etc. etc.

If the rules are tailored for the Orks.. Then it looks like GW made the Marine codex to bend the rules back in their favor..

~Logic

Sidstyler
06-09-2008, 11:19
Tau.

Decoay launchers, TLOS and Run really made the day for the cows in space.

Yeah, being able to run and make it into assault that much quicker is a boon to the Tau, who have to avoid it like the plague in order to scrape together a win-wait a minute...

(Yes, I realize that means I have even more of an opportunity to avoid assault, but you have to give up shooting to do that and that doesn't benefit me at all.)

But anyway, in either case I disagree, I really, really don't think Tau benefitted more from 5th edition than any other race. First of all, I think you got the wargear mixed up, Decoy Launchers are now near useless, Disruption Pods are the ones that grant a 4+ cover save from more than 12" distant. And TLOS is really a benefit for anyone that isn't a dedicated assault army, so I don't think that counts...

I think people will just say Tau regardless simply because they don't like them, but oh well. ;)

The one thing that Tau did have that was unique to them was the ability to deny cover saves with markerlights, but apparently GW realized that Marines couldn't do this and are correcting the mistake as quickly as they possibly can* (*though I forget exactly what the rule is for that, I haven't kept up much with the rumors). So my vote will also go to the Marines, since like it was said a lot of the stuff in their new codex breaks the new rules, and Orks to a lesser extent, though I think horde armies in general are well off, KP's don't really do enough to balance it out when you have to kill the entire squad off to get the one point when you consider that those squads can get pretty damn big and can run toward your lines.

The_Outsider
06-09-2008, 11:39
Dark eldar got better in so much that everyone else felt a nerfing and DE didn't.

Sidstyler
06-09-2008, 11:45
I didn't know DE could still feel. :p

Jos
06-09-2008, 11:47
Orks. That IS the truth, marines may have the by far best codex (We'ill see about that) but orks got the most out of the big bad book

Kulgur
06-09-2008, 13:22
What nobody going to say Witch Hunters? Flamers became much better this edition and the only thing better then flamers is divinely guided ones

Staurikosaurus
06-09-2008, 15:16
I think that they all benefitted equally from more concise and clear rules

Altashheth
06-09-2008, 15:17
orks. period. they benefit from the rules and none of the rules hurt them. True line of sight means that every big shooter can focus on the troop choice of the orks choice. Run mean they can get 2nd turn charges with the whole army. Pulling people into assault means that ork mobs only nedd one ork to connect to get 60+ attacks at str 4. Cover everywhere means that each ork gets a 4+ save. Hitting the rear of vehicles means that those charging orks just trash any vehicle with Av10 rear....and on and on.

alexchiu
06-09-2008, 15:27
And then a 30-man Ork mob gets charged, loses 15 to attacks and another 15 to Fearless wounds. Good times.

Bunnahabhain
06-09-2008, 15:41
Guard.

The no consolidating into combat, and the improvements to blast are very, very powerful indeed.

They out-weigh the increased fragility our vehicles now have in cc, S4 defensive weapons, troops only as scoring units, the farce that is KPs, the almost total freedom to come on whichever side you like, and several other things.

Vault-Dweller
06-09-2008, 21:35
Yes the fearless rules didnt favor the orks but the free countercharge can make up for some off that. But I think IG won most.

Kalec
06-09-2008, 22:20
Guard.

The no consolidating into combat, and the improvements to blast are very, very powerful indeed.

They out-weigh the increased fragility our vehicles now have in cc, S4 defensive weapons, troops only as scoring units, the farce that is KPs, the almost total freedom to come on whichever side you like, and several other things.

I agree with your points, but disagree with your conclusion. Automatically losing 1 in 3 games is too painful to overcome, the other nerfs are just icing on the cake.

DE: they got hurt this edition. Harder to hide webway portals, can't consolidate into combat, and vehicles still fold like wet paper.

Biggest benefactors? Orks, no question.

TheDarkSaint
07-09-2008, 02:09
Orks. Kill zones are gone and I get to smack back!

khorne808
07-09-2008, 02:12
i guess all the armies got better and can be used for diffrent things now
in my opion eldar
the farseer has a 3+ sv against parils and cant be instant killed
fire dragons the exarch ignores cover sv.
rangers the can rend and ap1(nice)
everybody can run so that makes the whole eldar army move up to 12"

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 02:26
Guard.

The no consolidating into combat, and the improvements to blast are very, very powerful indeed. Agreed with this sentiment.

I played Guard at a tourney last weekend and I was really impressed. I had never played IG before but the new rules really helped out.

10 man meat shields sitting out in front of their boys stop bullets and charges for a really bargain price. I got assaulted by a super nasty BT command squad...lost everyone before I even got to attack back...then fired my entire army into them. Good times!

Though I thought the Tau benefit from the no consolodating into new units thing pretty well too. But since I haven't played Tau in the new edition I can't say for sure.

I totally disagree about Eldar. I think they got completely owned. Relatively small troops units who are nice and squishy, Falcons can either shoot or get a cover save, Harlequins rend on the wound, many more 4+ cover saves against their guns.

I might be wrong but I don't think Eldar did well in the new system.

zanotam
07-09-2008, 05:22
I'd have to say Orks, Witch Hunters, and Tyranids benefited a lot. The Tyranids received similar benefits to what the Orks did and the WH preference for closish combat and flamers is useful in 5th edition. As an Eldar player I felt pretty screwed, but I happen to base my army around the units that got the least screwed, so at least I can still do decently.

Luckywallace
07-09-2008, 09:46
I play Orks and yes, we did get some nice boosts, but not consolidating into combat really hurts.

I do think 5th edition was a benefit to the Greenies, but there were downsides to it.

Grimtuff
07-09-2008, 09:50
But I suspect that Marines will profit the most. We'll have to see how the new Marine codex plays. But some of their abilities seem to just ignore the rules. Choose to pass/fail morale, assault after deep strike, etc. etc.


It's only choose to fail a morale check (Calgar grants them the ability you describe). I've used the new SM dex twice and they are silly in some situations in 5th ed. Calgar's ability is insane due to effectively making them fearless with none of the drawbacks.

Sidstyler
07-09-2008, 10:31
Is it just me, or does it seem like everyone thinks every army in the game "profited" most from 5th? The only army that hasn't been mentioned in this topic so far are Daemonhunters.


Though I thought the Tau benefit from the no consolodating into new units thing pretty well too. But since I haven't played Tau in the new edition I can't say for sure.

Tau do alright, but I strongly object to anyone claiming that 5th edition was written just for them. They got their hits but gained strength in other areas, same as almost every other army.

Except Marines of course, their new codex is going to be ridiculous.

Bunnahabhain
07-09-2008, 13:43
Is it just me, or does it seem like everyone thinks every army in the game "profited" most from 5th?

No. Look again at the thread title.

I see no most in there, all it asks is which have profited.

Opinions have been fairly split on most armies, some saying they gain , some they lose, some they've come out about the same, unless talking about orks or new marines....

MadJackMcJack
07-09-2008, 14:06
Orks didn't benefit from 5th edition, 5th edition benefited by having Orks! :D

mooze
07-09-2008, 14:23
Guard really improved with the wretched "no consolidating into combat" rule. A 40 pt. meatshield conscript unit stretched out in line abreast means that you only assault these troops, wipe them out, and are subsequently obliterated by massed fire. Whoever wrote this rule really liked IG. All shooty armies improved with this rule actually, it's just that IG seems best able to exploit it. When they removed the "rhino rush" by disallowing assault when disembarking (a fair enough rule since that's all marines and chaos seemed to do) that biased the game towards shooting. This just makes it absurd for close combat armies unless you can chuck your whole army into combat at once so as to divide the incoming fire. I play chaos, space marines and am now beginning orks and I can assure you that my orks are going to do a lot of shooting (and missing of course). I really would prefer small rules changed that are well thought out rather than game altering large changes that seem to improve some armies/penalize others, and take none of this into account in the points cost for units. For example: anything that uses a template just got substantially better without paying for it. It would be really nice if GW would send out trial rules to their retailers and GW stores to try out and then let the gamers vote on whether they liked them and perhaps make suggestions. I'm not sure GW actually play tests their changes with any consideration other than "will this rule make people buy new models/armies". On the other hand, these changes do keep us from stale styles of play (like the ubiquitous rhino rush).

MadJackMcJack
07-09-2008, 14:47
Guard really improved with the wretched "no consolidating into combat" rule. A 40 pt. meatshield conscript unit stretched out in line abreast means that you only assault these troops, wipe them out, and are subsequently obliterated by massed fire.

Shoot the meatsheild.

Xirathnix
07-09-2008, 15:53
I definitely see huge benefits to Orks, guard, Tau, and ill say it DH.

Orks-run with huge mobs. An entire army assaulting on round 2 has to be the biggest increase.

Guard, Tau- no consolidation will be insanely invaluable. Tau also have marker lights. If I were them I would take some sac units and lots of low ap short ranged guns.

DH- running gray knights makes up for alot of weakness. Every GN can now easily pop a tank. I can see these guys comming into their own. They start with shrouding that should help with 1st round shooting and makes them a little less vulnerable to STI.

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 16:17
i guess all the armies got better and can be used for diffrent things now
in my opion eldar
the farseer has a 3+ sv against parils and cant be instant killed
fire dragons the exarch ignores cover sv.
rangers the can rend and ap1(nice)
everybody can run so that makes the whole eldar army move up to 12" You know Eldar pretty much got all this stuff in 4th ed right?

1. No he doesn't.
2. they always did
3. rending now has the effect of their rifles always had and they hit on 3+ instead of 2+
4. Most the army could fleet anyway

Sidstyler
07-09-2008, 16:24
...biased the game towards shooting. This just makes it absurd for close combat armies unless you can chuck your whole army into combat at once so as to divide the incoming fire.

If you ask me the concept of an entire "close combat army" is absurd to begin with. It's 40,000 years in the future, everyone is walking around with devastating weaponry the likes of which we have never seen, but when it comes to actually fighting a war everyone throws their guns to the ground and charges blindly into hand-to-hand combat. :rolleyes:

The game isn't "Assault 40,000", it's no less an important phase of the game, but I get sick of hearing so many people say pretty much the same thing, that guns should only ever be used on your way to the nearest melee and if you play a shooty army you're playing the game wrong.


I definitely see huge benefits to Orks, guard, Tau, and ill say it DH.

Then that makes it official, every race is overpowered in 5th edition.

ChaplainVarnus
07-09-2008, 17:16
I'm not sure who benefit's most, but the Tau got sorta unlucky. TLOS, Run, Etc. won't make tau players whoop with glee.:p

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 17:19
If you ask me the concept of an entire "close combat army" is absurd to begin with. It's 40,000 years in the future, everyone is walking around with devastating weaponry the likes of which we have never seen, but when it comes to actually fighting a war everyone throws their guns to the ground and charges blindly into hand-to-hand combat. I have to disagree here. Most weapons (aside from space ships and Apocalypse things) in 40K are just jumped up modern day weaponry. In some cases it's even less effective than what we have today. (Plasma and melta weapons aside I guess)

What we don't have is power armor that shrigs off small arms fire, genhanced men three times as strong and durable as a professional weightlifter, monsters the size of tanks immune to pain, regenerative abilities and speed that makes a cheeta look slow.

Getting in close with an enemy and splitting his skull is a very viable tactic if you ask me.

Of course even the largest 40K tables would be considered point blank fire fighting range by todays standards.

If what you're saying Sid is that armies should be starting 12 feet apart and blasting away at eachother, I can't really disagree with that.

But imagine modern forces (IG equivalent) suddenly faced with Drop Pods falling out of the sky and power armored monsters pouring out armed with mini grenade launchers and strong enough to litterally rip a man limb from limb bare handed...well I think that would be a pretty good way to break an army.

Wraithbored
07-09-2008, 17:34
unsurprisingly the new marine dex

Sidstyler
07-09-2008, 17:52
If what you're saying Sid is that armies should be starting 12 feet apart and blasting away at eachother, I can't really disagree with that.

Not quite what I meant. I may have an all-shooty army but I'm not so stupid as to suggest that the entire game should revolve around shooting just to my benefit.


But imagine modern forces (IG equivalent) suddenly faced with Drop Pods falling out of the sky and power armored monsters pouring out armed with mini grenade launchers and strong enough to litterally rip a man limb from limb bare handed...well I think that would be a pretty good way to break an army.

Indeed, but exactly how fun would that be if every match against Space Marines played out that way? There has to be balance, he can't just DS in pods right in front of your lines and kill your entire army off on turn 1, that's ludicrous.

I'm not saying assault shouldn't be viable, but it's not what the game is about. I just don't want to see people complain because they can't charge straight up the board, lock one unit in combat and then proceed to steamroll the entire army with no shots being fired because of consolidation.

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 18:06
Oh, if we're talking about fun, that's a whole new subject. And you're right, it would be lame as all hell if they went for the 1st turn win reality(hahah) of Space Marines.

I like a good mix of assault and shooting. It makes enough sense and is the most fun.

However, I believe all armies should be designed with the chance of being well as balanced for assault as shooting, with a slight slant in either direction.

I think it is wholly unfair that a couple of armies are completely unsuited for either fighting or defending against assaults. Even the most assaulty army has plenty of shooting (Orks, Tyranids).

Tau and IG need a revamp so that 50% of the game isn't lost to them. Though the no consolodating thing does help a lot (and while it hurts my Chaos army I am all for it).

The_Outsider
07-09-2008, 18:18
unsurprisingly the new marine dex

The new marine codex is a joke, but not in an "omg overpowered" way, merely a "look at those expensive units that perform no better than tactical squads against my eldar/orks/rending ponies".

Sidstyler
07-09-2008, 18:25
Oh, if we're talking about fun, that's a whole new subject.

Well, I'm kinda talking all over the place, really. I was hinting that I thought an assault-oriented army was unrealistic, but I think you should be able to win with one just as easily as any other army.

But yeah, in the 40k universe assault isn't really as silly as it would be in ours.

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 18:29
The new marine codex is a joke, but not in an "omg overpowered" way, merely a "look at those expensive units that perform no better than tactical squads against my eldar/orks/rending ponies". You mean like Sternguard? They preform pretty well.
Or siege Dreadnoughts?
Or Thunderfire Cannons?
Or Outflanking Landraiders?
Or TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks?
Or rapid firing scout grenade launchers?
Or Land Raider Redeemers?
Or Land Raider Crusaders?
Or 3+ invul Assault Terminators? (How do your PK's like that?)
What about S10 orbital strikes?

Honor Company Vets and Vanguard vets are about the only thing that are so expensive for what they do that you wouldn't bring them.

People who keep talking about 'over priced' units are only looking at one or two units and declaring them all useless. A veteran player is going to dismantle people with this book.

The_Outsider
07-09-2008, 19:01
List

All of those with the exception of the assault terminators and possibly the sternguard mean nothing to my army, so i'm not worried.

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 19:08
Which army?

Orks, Eldar and Tyranids have good reason to fear the drop podding Siege Dread with 2 heavy flamers.

LRC's are always good for thinning out hordes.
TF cannons can fire a big blast that ignores cover or creates difficult terrain.
I didn't mention Whirlwinds.

Not to mention all the effective stuff in the book that didn't change, ie Speeders and such.

Since I don't know the points costs I can't say much about Devastators but the 3 HB's+Plasma cannon is badass against anyone. Giving the PC balistic skill 5 makes is going to make it's points back that much faster.

Lazarus15
07-09-2008, 20:12
I think Marines, IG, and Orks have benefited the most.

I think Tyranids have benefitted the least.

Marines-any seasoned player can look at the new book and say, "good god, why is a squad allowed to do that?" Sternguard and A. Termies with Thunderhammers are going to decimate tyranids and practically every other army.

IG-There "meat shields can go to ground and recieve (with doctrines) either a 3+ or a 2+ cover save. In addition, their tanks are much harder to kill, as are the other plethora of tanks.

Orks- Run, Cover saves, and Transport rules make them much much nastier, whereas the fearless rule is a double edged sword.

Tyranids-They got boned in my opinion. The venom cannon blows for the points cost listed, as does the fearless rule where a tactical marine squad can easily wipe out a 14 -16 strong squad of gaunts or hormagaunts by charging it, and resolution from being fearless...gimme a break. A dreadnaught, and a Dev. squad can smoke a carnifex before it even gets to your army. Then what will you rely on to kill a LR, LRC, or the new LR variant? Zoanthropes? Better hope they don't have a librarian on the board, as well as a 50% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of getting any kind of penatration or glance. Then you are FK'd by that big expensive tank. What else do you have....a flying Hive Tyrant? Compare that to a T4 ork that costs 4 points less than a hormagaunt. The only way this army is effective in competitive games now, is to run at least 4 TMC's.

Dooks Dizzo
07-09-2008, 22:21
I think you're nuts about Tyranids, but it's all a matter of preference.


A dreadnaught, and a Dev. squad can smoke a carnifex before it even gets to your army How is this different than 4th?

Anyway, Force Weapons no longer instant kill.
Feeder Tendrils are the best thing ever.
Carnifexes auto penetrate everything except Land Raiders.
Dirt cheap guants give 4+ cover to everything else.
Genestealers with feeder tendrils allow mobs of hormaguants to reroll misses.
Running Carnifexes are better than not running carnifexes.
Genestealers actually rend just as well as ever against anything not AV14 in the rear.
Dakkafex lost nothing.
Stealers can come in on the board edge and either attakc or fleet to objectives.


as does the fearless rule where a tactical marine squad can easily wipe out a 14 -16 strong squad of gaunts or hormagaunts by charging it This makes no sense whatso ever.

Max attacks from 10 tacticals: 20
Avaerage hits: 10
Average wounds: 6.5
Average kills: 5

16 Hormaguants strike simultanious = 32 attacks (without charging)
16 hits
5 wounds
1 or 2 kills

Lose combat by 3, take 3 armor saves.

Usually will lose half the squad of horma's but will stand fast and wait for something much bigger and nastier to come along and eat those Marines.

Now, what are the odds of a 10 man tactical actually getting to charge Fleeting, Leaping Hormaguants? Slim.


The only way this army is effective in competitive games now, is to run at least 4 TMC's I've always run 5 anyway.

grickherder
07-09-2008, 23:20
Tyranids-They got boned in my opinion. The venom cannon blows for the points cost listed,

So no change from 4th edition there. Venom cannons have always sucked since 3rd.


as does the fearless rule where a tactical marine squad can easily wipe out a 14 -16 strong squad of gaunts or hormagaunts by charging it, and resolution from being fearless...gimme a break.

I had a 10 man tactical squad charge the remaining 14 termigants of a brood yesterday. Lost 7 in the fight and another 5 in the aftermath. 2 left just fine. And has been pointed out, charging hormagaunts shouldn't happen very often.


A dreadnaught, and a Dev. squad can smoke a carnifex before it even gets to your army.

Depends on the carnifex. And the points value. It kind of makes sense to me that ~300 points of devestators/dreads should be able to kill a 120-200 point carnifex.


Then what will you rely on to kill a LR, LRC, or the new LR variant?

I don't. I don't go after monoliths either. The LRC and the new LR are nasty given their template weapons and hurricane bolters, but generally speaking, land raiders rarely put out the firepower you'd expect for the points.


Zoanthropes? Better hope they don't have a librarian on the board, as well as a 50% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of getting any kind of penatration or glance.

Zoanthropes are best equipped with Synapse Creature and Psychic Scream.


The only way this army is effective in competitive games now, is to run at least 4 TMC's.

The scuttling swarm army is now way, way more effective than the nidzilla list. 4+ cover saves all over the place, way more genestealers because you don't need to buy carapace armour for much if you've got a gaunt screen.

My tyranid army has 0 monstrous creatures. I'd be willing to bet it'd do fine in a tournament. The only thing you can shoot without getting a 4+ cover save in the way are 5 point spine gaunts. There's so much synapse that nothing ever runs and all the broods are big enough that only another swarm army can wipe out units in a single assault phase (and some other hard hitting stuff).

Tyranids do great in 5th edition.

Deadnight
07-09-2008, 23:28
not really on topic but i would disagree with those who say tau benefit most from 5th ed.

90% of 5th ed is all about damage control for tau. there are only one or two things that go in their favour:

assault consolodation.
markerlights.

its annoying we have to pay for one of these advantages through our noses whereas berzerkers just get to "run" and take advantage of that new rule. not complaining though btw.

a few other things are OK, but they swing both ways. For example, TLOS is fine for fire warriors, but rotton for crisis suits and JSJ and then if you throw in lash of submission...

i dunno. im waiting 6 months to see how the metagame shifts before i make my decision on what armies have benefitted.

Gatsby
08-09-2008, 01:46
sisters improved the most

deathwing_marine
08-09-2008, 02:18
You mean like Sternguard? They preform pretty well.
Or siege Dreadnoughts?
Or Thunderfire Cannons?
Or Outflanking Landraiders?
Or TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks?
Or rapid firing scout grenade launchers?
Or Land Raider Redeemers?
Or Land Raider Crusaders?
Or 3+ invul Assault Terminators? (How do your PK's like that?)
What about S10 orbital strikes?

Honor Company Vets and Vanguard vets are about the only thing that are so expensive for what they do that you wouldn't bring them.

People who keep talking about 'over priced' units are only looking at one or two units and declaring them all useless. A veteran player is going to dismantle people with this book.

I have to agree about alot of the units being overpriced. While a veteran player could do alot of damage, I think I could take it with my mechanized Eldar.
Sternguard look like an overpriced Tactical Squad with a couple new toys.
Siege Dread? Will never get to me.
Thunderfire shouldnt be too much of a problem.
How does a Land Raider Outflank? Havent heard this one. Strange
My 4 Wave Serpents ignore rending, so the TLAC Razorback isnt scary. Plus, my S6 spam should take them out easily.
Grenade Launchers? Haha. Those scouts will never get the chance to shoot em at my infantry.
The Land Raiders are Lance and Fire Dragon bait.
Bladestorm doesnt care about invulnerable saves. Pretty powerful though, I'll admit.
Orbital Strike will be a pain.

So what Im saying is that a good player should be able to find a way to handle any army. Space Marines wont be too overpowered in my eyes.

Dooks Dizzo
08-09-2008, 03:03
Mech Eldar, as always, pose an issue for anyone. However, I think Marines have a fighting chance these days. Allow me to postulate :)


Sternguard look like an overpriced Tactical Squad with a couple new toys. Yes, but their toys can smoke Rangers and Pathfinders with no save allowed, as well as being a serious threat to most Apsects.

While they are not as suited for killing Mech Eldar as they are other races, they are decent. And if you're not in a vehicle or assault, they are deadly to all your infantry and jump infantry.


Siege Dread? Will never get to me.Drop pod baby. And while that isn't scary to your vehicles so much, it is frightening to infantry. If you happen to have a vehicle immobilized or stunned the round it comes in, you're in trouble.


Thunderfire shouldnt be too much of a problem. Agreed, as long as you don't let your troops out of their tanks.


How does a Land Raider Outflank? Havent heard this one. StrangeTaken as a dedicated transport for Terminators with the White Scars characters in the army. Very nasty.


My 4 Wave Serpents ignore rending, so the TLAC Razorback isnt scary. Plus, my S6 spam should take them out easily.How do they ignore rending? Force Fields? They are still S6, so they have a chance of banging your WS's around regardless. And the squad packing a missile launcher will be shooting too.


Grenade Launchers? Haha. Those scouts will never get the chance to shoot em at my infantry.These are pretty useless against Mech Eldar, however they are S6.

But really, the list I set out wasn't based on fighting Mechanized Eldar. Marines can deal with them with plenty of other stuff in the codex, and certaintly make it deadly for you to get out of your transports.

If you try to just sit on the objective your Wave Serpents, and the squads inside, are dead.

But like I said, Mech Eldar is a tough force and should be dealt with accordingly :)

Lazarus15
08-09-2008, 04:20
We do not want to digress from the original topic but we can for sure debate this on another forum. :cool:

A few points of rebuttal however to the two gentlemen in regards to Tyranids:

*Venom cannons were awesome, as I have run at least one on a carnifex since the beginning of third ed, and have never had any issues, except with the new vehicle chart which screws the venom cannon. (I like the chart, but the VC should have changed).

*With Real Line of sight, which I like for the most part, it means that you have a flip of the coin for cover saves, if you get one at all versus being completely out of line of sight in older eds. That is the difference between now and then.

*Statistical analysis works with large samples IE: 100 or more at once for a start. With 20 attacks, the dice are fickle, and often make a mockery of statistics. With such a small sample, all stat's do is give you a rough idea of what should happen. However, it has happened to me several times, that horms are counter charged, and around 7-8 die, then make 7-8 6+ armor saves. You might make one or two. Sometimes the "dice are with you" and you make more. That is almost the entire squad, which is REDICULOUS!

*I am not necessarily saying that they will get charged by tact. marines, but pointing that fact out. They can and have been charged by assault marines which make losses that much more absolute, unless lightning strikes.

*Just because something costs more points doesn't mean it SHOULD kill something with lesser points...IE: Dread, Dev. squad. killing a carnifex or a full squad of howling banshees killing a squad of termies which are much more expensive.

*I am sorry but then the person you are playing hasn't used their land raider very effectively. LR's are the boon of the new Tyranids as there are a select few that can kill it, especially when it moves fast to drop off a term. squad of doom at a weak point in your lines, then next turn, you have a flank caved in.

*Lastly, if you are doing well with the swarm, GREAT! I am not wishing this upon my beloved hive fleet. I have invested WAY too much time, money, and effort into making a giant army, just to draw these conclusions loosely.

I am not saying that tyranids aren't competitive, just that they became a one trick poney....the Nydzilla list. I played it for a while, but after a while, I won't play that anymore, because composition scores hurt.

deathwing_marine
08-09-2008, 04:27
Mech Eldar, as always, pose an issue for anyone. However, I think Marines have a fighting chance these days. Allow me to postulate :)

Thanks, too many people just quote their opinion as fact around here :)


Yes, but their toys can smoke Rangers and Pathfinders with no save allowed, as well as being a serious threat to most Apsects.

While they are not as suited for killing Mech Eldar as they are other races, they are decent. And if you're not in a vehicle or assault, they are deadly to all your infantry and jump infantry.

true, but i dont use rangers, so i didnt think of that. I would also do my best to not put myself in a position to have my aspect warriors shot up.


Drop pod baby. And while that isn't scary to your vehicles so much, it is frightening to infantry. If you happen to have a vehicle immobilized or stunned the round it comes in, you're in trouble.

True. Kind of situational though. Sounds like the Sieger doesnt have very good range capabilities, which makes it less scary. Unless for some ridiculous reason this dread actually can assault out of its pod.


Agreed, as long as you don't let your troops out of their tanks.

Seems kind of like an easy target for me. Is he treated as artillery?


Taken as a dedicated transport for Terminators with the White Scars characters in the army. Very nasty.

Oh wow, hadnt thought of that. That is intimidating. I still like my chances though.


How do they ignore rending? Force Fields? They are still S6, so they have a chance of banging your WS's around regardless. And the squad packing a missile launcher will be shooting too.

Yeah, the Wave Serpent has a rule called Energy Field, which means weapons never roll more than 1D6 for penetration, as well as treating any weapons with a strength greater than 8 as 8. Which makes rending, melta, ordnance, etc less scary. Sort of like a mini-lith.

Its neat because railguns have just as hard a time dealing with Wave Serpents as they do Land Raiders, if not harder.


These are pretty useless against Mech Eldar, however they are S6.

Hmm, didnt know about the S6. Not up to date on the "rumors" as I thought I was


But really, the list I set out wasn't based on fighting Mechanized Eldar. Marines can deal with them with plenty of other stuff in the codex, and certaintly make it deadly for you to get out of your transports.

If you try to just sit on the objective your Wave Serpents, and the squads inside, are dead.

But like I said, Mech Eldar is a tough force and should be dealt with accordingly :)

I think they'll definitely be a respectable army.
Also, my Eldar are quite the aggressive force , so no sitting on objectives for me.:)

This conversation made me want to play a really good marine player with the new book now. Haha

EDIT: Sorry for the off topic, guys!

Vaktathi
08-09-2008, 04:27
Orks.

Not only have their amazingly cost efficient troops just become even more useful relative to everyone elses basic troops, but they are getting 4+ cover saves a majority of the time as well. Ork horde armies are amazingly effective.


Eldar I think got nicely toned down with the changes to skimmers (although the defensive weapons changes suck, but that hit pretty much everyone as well)

Tau got a little sturdier in that they can always claim a cover save, but also lost some mobile firepower and now often have huge numbers of killpoints when they really shouldn't (gogo gadget gun drones!)

Guard got some good things, some bad things. IG ordnance is a little better, but IG tanks in general became even more overcosted if they aren't lobbing ordnance (and most IG tanks don't have ordnance), and IG armies in kill points games can have victory stolen from them rather easily (oh look, I killed 7 units, you killed 6 of mine, I've only got 4 models left on the table and you still have over 100, but I still win, yay!) and IG weapons that rely on AP for their punch also took a huge hit with ubiquitous 4+ saves on just about everything.

Space Marines are well, mostly unaffected.

Tyranids I think suffer from overcosted basic troops and the lack of consolidation options can leave them pretty open where they don't want to be, but still aren't too bad off.

Necrons are well, Necrons. Gauss isn't quite as effective in absolute terms, but its ability to keep the otherwise much sturdier tanks from doing anything is invaluable.

Chaos got pantsed with the new wound allocation rules, good-bye icon!

Nicha11
08-09-2008, 07:08
I think that both assault and shooting armies benefited from this Edition.
With run improved cover, but no consolidating into combat.

However i think that Eldar have taken a big hit with only troops able to capture objectives.

Dooks Dizzo
08-09-2008, 21:18
This conversation made me want to play a really good marine player with the new book now. Haha
I live in Seattle :)

Of course I need to win my new Marines army from the 'Ard Boyz first.

Aun'shi, hero of Fio'vash
08-09-2008, 23:51
1^ place:
Witch Hunters with sisters:
Mostly like Astartes but with much more faith, and they just cost 11 points, they can use acts of faith, cheap and resistent infantry, just what you need for 2 out of 3 missions, kp sees better units...
But an old codex regained life. :D

2^ place:
Chaos Space Marines, because when it comes to troops they're the best, 2 plague bearers teams with 2 rhinos (one with smoke launchers covers the other one behind and it's 4+ to avoid the hit), if that is not enough:
Berserkers, they just kill everyone...:p
And of course: daemon prince with lash, and winged sorcerer with lash, is there an enemy close to the objective? he is no more...;)

3^ place:
Eldars, fast moving troops helped by the always present Eldrad...

If you think that orks are the solution, you'd better think it again, if you take 180 boyz you've got less points for the rest, OK you can waaaaaghhh, but consider that new rules apply to close combat, and the overwhelming c.c. elites from the past still do their job perfectly...
How do I need lots of orks when I've still got to hide from many units? :rolleyes:

Lazarus15
09-09-2008, 03:58
The wave serpent energy field doesn't work in CC. Genestealers, and rending CC still work as normal.

deathwing_marine
09-09-2008, 04:01
Mmhmm, indeed. Only against shooting.

Toast...
09-09-2008, 04:07
I would rather have orks be a little too good then really bad like they used to be.



Threadjack: (Just kidding ;))

Who least benefited?

I'd say tyranids. Their shooting (venom cannons in particular) got nerfed to hell.

Dooks Dizzo
09-09-2008, 04:36
I never used Venom Cannons in the first place, so no problem there for me.

Killing vehicles in CC has become ridiculously easy.

Seriously guys, Tyranids got better and they were damn good to begin with.

As and aside, Tyranids scored 5th and 6th overall at the vegas GT.

Lazarus15
10-09-2008, 05:24
They scored 5th and 6th, and I bet their list was Nydzilla with lots of stealers.

Vehicles are easy to kill from two things, Monstrous Creatures in CC, and Warp Blast.

Starchild
10-09-2008, 05:58
I think Eldar actually came out pretty good in 5th.

-Autarchs give Eldar a definitive edge in Dawn of War deployment (1 in 3 chance, I know, but it's still an advantage.)
-Striking Scorpions can outflank.
-Fire Dragons meltabombs score automatic damage vs. any vehicle with rear AV 10.
-Farseers casting Fortune can make a unit nearly invulnerable to shooting with re-rollable 4+ cover saves. :evilgrin:
-Guardians are way better now, since there is no more consolidating into assaults; they can actually shoot before getting slaughtered! :eek:
-Rangers are more deadly with rending on the long rifles (already mentioned).
-They get one of the toughest scoring units in the game: a unit of 10 Wraithguard with concealing Warlock, which are even better when a Farseer casts Fortune on them. :angel:

That said, Orks and SMs are obviously the best armies in 5th, so far, but agree with Aun'shi: Eldar get 3rd place.

blackroyal
10-09-2008, 05:59
True. Kind of situational though. Sounds like the Sieger doesnt have very good range capabilities, which makes it less scary. Unless for some ridiculous reason this dread actually can assault out of its pod.


It doesn't need to have good range capabilities. It needs to deep strike near your guardians/rangers and lay 2! Heavy Flamer Templates on the squad to kill it dead. This is what I am looking forward to in the new marine dex.

On topic, I have to say that any army that is vehicle heavy is in better shape than it was in 4th. It is that much harder to kill mid-high AV tanks now.

Supreme Archon Orlok
10-09-2008, 19:04
I think the Dark Eldar have profited because with the new vehicle armour pentration rules a bolter won't be able to destroy a raider as easily.

Raxmei
10-09-2008, 19:29
I think the Dark Eldar have profited because with the new vehicle armour pentration rules a bolter won't be able to destroy a raider as easily.A shockingly common misconception. DE Raiders are open topped. As a consequence, they are just as vulnerable to bolter death as before

deathwing_marine
10-09-2008, 21:07
It doesn't need to have good range capabilities. It needs to deep strike near your guardians/rangers and lay 2! Heavy Flamer Templates on the squad to kill it dead. This is what I am looking forward to in the new marine dex.

On topic, I have to say that any army that is vehicle heavy is in better shape than it was in 4th. It is that much harder to kill mid-high AV tanks now.

Actually, we were discussing how it would fare against a mechanized Eldar force. Everything is in Wave Serpents.

Ozybonza
10-09-2008, 23:06
Dark Angels Doublewing!!!

A whole army of SCORING bikes and termies. You know it :D

Mind you, if they don't get FAQ'd with the new SM 'dex, they'll have some disadvantageous wargear but I think they will still be awesome.

I've played a few games with all bikes and termies (with both master of RW and DW so bikes and termies as troops) and having your whole army scoring is fantastic, especially when everything can move up to 24" or deep strike.

Wraithbored
10-09-2008, 23:17
However i think that Eldar have taken a big hit with only troops able to capture objectives. I would like to kindly disagree here, we can have jetbikes as very fast objective grabbers and 10 man Wraithguard squads. T6 models standing on an objective is hard(but not impossible) to budge. Then Dire Avengers are good at removing objective holder(bladestorm) and holding it well(shimmershield and defend). Rangers and pathfinders are also good if the objective is in area terrain. Hell even guardians with platforms perform very adequately. Just my 2 cents.

The_Outsider
10-09-2008, 23:30
A shockingly common misconception. DE Raiders are open topped. As a consequence, they are just as vulnerable to bolter death as before

No, he is right. Even with open topped the biggest change is no longer dying simply because you moved over 6" and received an immobilised result.

Raiders got tougher against the thing that kills them most (which is bolters upto multilasers) but they are even more fragile against proper heavy weaponry.