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View Full Version : GT wysiwyg - would you be happy with this?



stormtrooper154
07-09-2008, 11:59
Ive decided to take my Tyranids to the GT, but I have a minor problem. All my MC's are armed with Venom cannons, and under the new blast rules Im looking at using Barbed stranglers instead but Ive glued, converted and modelled my Carnifexes and dont fancy cutting them up.

Ive emailed the events team to see what their stance is plus I would make it clear before each game for my opponent.

So would anyone have any problem with this?

Adra
07-09-2008, 12:09
Well....yes. In a tournament yes. In any other setting then I would probably let it slide if i liked the look of you but in a tournament you do expect some level of respect for WYSIWYG. I mean i dont know you from adam in that setting so why should i except? Your reasoning is fine and im sure your not out to scrw anyone over, but dont be suprised if they take a hard line with it.

Mad Larkin UK
07-09-2008, 12:13
Dont think your going to get away with this, since thats like saying that ill take normal marines armed with bolters, but they all actually have BP+CCW. It causes unnecessary confusion for opponents, when u could get clippers or a knife and get the right weapon fit on your fexes. Or just use Venom cannons, since you will still find them useful

Ambu
07-09-2008, 12:36
In a tourney I would say no, but ultimately its up to the tourny officials. It being the GT I would be shocked, amazed, and floored if you could get away with this. So you have 3 options.

1) Buy replacement models, paint'em up quick with the appropriate weapons.
2) Retro fit you exhisting models.
3) Choose a different list that doesn't need them in it.

Other then that I doubt it will pass. Thats why I am trying to get my current army I am building magnetized on the things I might want to switch up. The Rank and file is guled as I have extras to spare to mix and match, But My HQs and Tanks are all ging to be magnetized. Would do my dreads as well but once again I have enough to mix and match.

Master Stark
07-09-2008, 13:05
I would not tolerate it in any form of 'pick up' game, be it at the FLGS or at a tournament. Proxying (which is what you are talking about) is only good for friendly games where you want to try out something new.

stormtrooper154
07-09-2008, 13:09
To be honest, Im not expecting it to pass either, Ive ordered some BS and its not too hard to change them anyway.

Having said that, the GT's are never as strict as the make out - Ive seen un-undercoated minis, a black undercoated army and other things in the past.

I will probably just change them anyway.

ehlijen
07-09-2008, 13:11
All you need to do is clip off the barrels/muzzles and swap them, the arms are close to indentical anyway.

Bunnahabhain
07-09-2008, 13:28
So all of the Venom cannons in your force are actually barbed stranglers. Pick upo games no problem at all.

For a tournament, I'd be a little stricter. If your entire force is finished nicely, then changing these seems over the top, as you have a clear and consistent counts as.
If half the army is little more than undercoated, then change them, and add to your painting pile...

Cartographer
07-09-2008, 13:30
The short answer from me is "No, no problem whatsoever".
Your models are representative of individuals in the army you are playing as, I would expect you to model/equip models in the way you find most aesthetically pleasing, not necessarily in the way you always intend to field them.

Though my opinion on WYSIWYG is that it is a cynical rule implemented by GW for the sole purpose of forcing you to buy extra models (no surprise it was first introduced in Necromunda, a game that only needs 12 models a side...), and serves no purpose in-game at all (I also play all games with secret lists, my opponents and I swap lists afterwards).

That said, do what you have done and get the tourney organisers' views on the matter. If they allow it, then you're fine, if not then you have a hard choice ahead; to clip up your models, buy new ones, rethink your list or not attend.

xragg
07-09-2008, 13:43
I would not tolerate it in any form of 'pick up' game, be it at the FLGS or at a tournament. Proxying (which is what you are talking about) is only good for friendly games where you want to try out something new.

I am sure your that stickler I always hear about that wont let me use my grenades or pistols since I dont like the look of those bits on my chaos marines. Lighten up a little. I see no problem playing someone that does this at a gaming store, but I do agree that it really shouldnt fly at a more serious tournament.

Master Stark
07-09-2008, 14:09
I am sure your that stickler I always hear about that wont let me use my grenades or pistols since I dont like the look of those bits on my chaos marines. Lighten up a little. I see no problem playing someone that does this at a gaming store, but I do agree that it really shouldnt fly at a more serious tournament.

Tournaments should not be 'more serious' games than regular games. If anything, they should be a little more laid back, given that your opponent is effectively a stranger and will definately have different gaming 'conventions' to you.

So why is proxying not acceptable at tournaments?

Because it demonstrates a lack of commitment, a WAAC tendency, and can lead to confusion and arguments.

If you want to run a certain piece of equipment, then you shouldn't use a model that represents a seperate piece of equipment.

Why would you want to? Because the other piece of equipment is more points efficient? Why is that efficiency difference so important to you that you would want to use the incorrect models?

We aren't talking about conversions or scratchbuilds here. We're talking about proxying. Taking models that represent one thing, and using them to represent another. Thats fine if it's just a game between friends and you want to try something new before you invest time and money on it, but for games with people you don't know I expect you to make the effort to either use scratchbuilds, conversions, or the appropriate model. It doesn't matter if it is a tournament or a pick-up game.

Lungboy
07-09-2008, 14:16
I've never played a tournament, but as long as it was made clear beforehand what the VCs actually were, and that they were all the same, i personally don't see a problem with it at all and would never ask my opponent to change it.

Cartographer
07-09-2008, 14:16
Since you ask:



Why would you want to?

"Because you prefer that particular model/weapon/item to the real one, and they're your models not your opponents, not GWs or anyone else's and can be assembled how you like."

That is the answer to your question.

Or in this specific case:

"Because GW changed the rules in such a manner between editions that all the money and hard work you put into your old army in 4th edition has been, to a large extent invalidated, and since you've already forked out 300+ on the army, a choice between forking out an extra 50 or destroying your models for the sake of sticklers is not something you want to consider."

Master Stark
07-09-2008, 14:21
Since you ask:



"Because you prefer that particular model/weapon/item to the real one..."

So just equip, and use the rules for, the model you like.

ImhotepMagi
07-09-2008, 14:34
Personally, I wouldn't like to see it in a tournament setting or a pick up setting with strangers. The fact is, people have enough to remember about their own army without having to expect them to remember things about yours. WYSIWYG is just respectful to the other players.

I have several models that have been changed in efficency by new rules. Hell, my entire Dark Angels army had to be restructured from 2nd to 3rd, and again when they got their own codex in 4th. I either learned to adapt to the new way the wargear changed or I replaced/rearmed the models.

That said, I don't mind the occasional proxy in a friendly game, just to see how something works before investing cash.

To the OP: Have you played some proxy games with the different weapons? If not, you should, just to see if its really worth changing or if they only seem better "on paper".

megatrons2nd
07-09-2008, 14:35
I have no problem with that either. As long as I know it's a carnifex I could care less how it is modeled as compared to how it is armed. Models are to expensive to have to change every couple of years.

Trench_Raider
07-09-2008, 14:42
I'm not a WYSIWYG fetishist, so I would have no problem as long as the proxy were consistant throughout the army and you explained it to me be before hand.

Come on, people. Whatever happened to being a reasonable opponent? (I pride myself on being one even in a competative enviorment) What ever happened to politely asking to see the opponent's list if you have any questions about what he is fielding?

WYSIWYG is a nice standard to aspire to. It makes things easier on both players. But it can be taken too far as a couple of post on this thread have shown.

TR

the1stpip
07-09-2008, 14:45
The point is surely that it does not matter what your opponent thinks, but what the organisers think. If they let it pass, then that is that.

I would personally change them or get replacements, as it is unlikely they will let it pass.

Tymell
07-09-2008, 14:48
Would I personally have a problem with it? No, at least not for a while (it might get a bit much after a while).

Will it get by in a tournament setting? Probably not, sorry.

Partisan Rimmo
07-09-2008, 14:59
I think the problem is that you're not really bending WYSIWIG, you're just breaking it.

The gun is a venom cannon. It is not a barbed strangler.


What you COULD do (and what I would do in the circumstances) is stick some bits on the cannon, and cut some bits off, and say it's an alternative design Barbed Strangler. I know you don't want to remodel, but modifying the gun is much better than going all the way.

ShaiAhlude
07-09-2008, 15:23
I have attended tourneys, and while they can stretch WYSIWYG, your example breaks it.

I modeled a double-ended blade for my Archon's punisher. The tourney had no problems with it because a) it fit the form of the weapon (two-handed) and b) there is no confusion for my opponent. I made sure to point it out before the game started, so they knew it would be a punisher.

Unfortunately, they look at your Venom Cannons and see....Venom Cannons.

I think if you model them differently, as a few above have suggested, so they don't look like VC's, you're probably OK. Otherwise, I doubt it.

And before anyone asks...in a friendly game, if I knew they were BS's instead of VC's, fine.

kenny3760
07-09-2008, 15:38
As long as every venom cannon in the army was being used as a barbed strangler and you don't have other barbed stranglers in your list and it's made clear before the game then I really don't see a problem with it.
It's when you get people saying that this heavy bolter is a plasma cannon but this other one is really a heavy bolter that the problem arises for me.

Partisan Rimmo
07-09-2008, 16:27
As long as every venom cannon in the army was being used as a barbed strangler and you don't have other barbed stranglers in your list and it's made clear before the game then I really don't see a problem with it.
It's when you get people saying that this heavy bolter is a plasma cannon but this other one is really a heavy bolter that the problem arises for me.

Would you object if your opponent wanted to use every heavy bolter in his army as a plasma cannon?

Shamfrit
07-09-2008, 16:40
Good lord, how hard lined can some people be?

On a logical level having multiple proxies representing different things is going to be confusing, however, marking everything out clearly when your army is perfectly painted, modelled and based should not take more than a few moments before each game to describe to your opponent.

I would not approach any GT that required the removal of parts of my models simply because I wanted to use a different selection from a multide of options available.

I would not expect anyone to have a Weapons Platform with every type of gun ready for example, neither would I expect them to have detachable sponsons or magnetised arms. It's taking it to a ridiculous and unfair extreme.

If you say they're Venom Guns then fine, that's what they are. We're playing with lumps of plastic after all.

nightmare12369
07-09-2008, 17:17
@ Partisin Rimmo, actually i would not, it makes no difference to me what a guy looks like as long as all heavy bolters were plasma cannons and there were no normal plasma cannons.

max the dog
07-09-2008, 17:58
Magnets. They would solve all of your problems.

Of course this being too late I'd do one of 2 things; live with it or use something different.
I may be a horde nid player at heart so take what I say with a grain of salt but I've never been too impressed with fex's. In 4th edition they were useful but only the dakkafex was effective. In 5th edition the dakka still is deadly and actually gained a bit vrs infantry while the sniperfex is getting to be a point sink. In 8 different 5th edition games I've used them in he's yet to destroy a vehicle and normally only shakes one once or twice a game. Not a very good point investment if you ask me. You'd be much better off using those points to make a CC/dakkafex, a genestealer brood or a huge horde of gaunts.
The CC/dakkafex is not your best option but it is a difficult creature to kill and can break almost any unit it touches. Use it to toss around armor and/or push opponents off objectives in round 5 and then keep them off it. Personally I'd say that a CC/dakka is just as good to do this if you give him a couple CC and defensive upgrades. Bio-acid, extended carapace, Spinebanks and a tail weapon are good upgrades to the pair of TL/devourers. Bio-acid gives him an additional CC attack and allows him to always hit skimmers on a 4+, EC keeps him alive, Spinebanks gives him fleshooks and a some extra shooting attacks and the tail weapon will always be useful now since your opponent has to pile in before attacks are resolved. This build has to be used in a heavy support slot but it's worth it.
A brood of genestealers can be used to kill tanks like before but to be effective you're going to have to upgrade them with toxin sacks and extended carapace. Since you're hitting their rear armor you will be glancing on a 5 and penetrating on a 6. Even a land raider can be hurt by them. Plus they will be wiping out almost any infantry in the game easily while still getting save from 90% of all firepower they'll face.
The gaunts are objective claimers or mobile cover saves. It's what they're best at and they do it well. Plus a very large brood of 32 always intimidates opponents. If it doesn't then they will be impressed by the damage a brood that size can put out.

Brother Loki
08-09-2008, 11:24
Does anyone who's not a Tyranid player actually know the difference between a venom cannon and a barbed strangler model? I know I don't. Same with Dark Eldar, all their heavy weapons look alike from more than a few inches away, so who cares? As long as consistency is maintained and all venom cannons in the army are representing barbed stranglers, and your opponents are informed beforehand (as far as I know GT's are played with open army lists anyway aren't they?) I don't see the problem. Counts-as works fine for this scenario, as long as everything is consistent.

However, you have done the right thing by contacting the event team to ask, as it's their call for the event in question. If you get an email reply that says its OK, I would print it and take a copy with you so that you can show opponents, so they know you're not trying to pull a fast one, and it'll also help them remember during the game if they've seen it written down as well as heard it from you. Otherwise, you'll end up calling judges over all the time to confirm its ok.

kenny3760
08-09-2008, 12:42
Would you object if your opponent wanted to use every heavy bolter in his army as a plasma cannon?

If he'd paid the points for plasma cannons and didn't have "real" plasma cannons in the army then no I wouldn't.
As I said it's only when there are 2 or more different models representing the same thing that the problem starts.

Then again perhaps I realise it's just a game of toy soldiers, even when I'm at the GT.;)

backslide
08-09-2008, 13:27
just cut the bugs up, I like shooting at bugs :)