PDA

View Full Version : Re-Aiming at older players?



Alessander
08-09-2008, 11:27
Anyone notice that between Apocalypse, the new 5th ed rulebook and the Black Reach intro booklet, GW has been using photos of older people in their 20s (including some receding hairlines and "crow's feet" eyelines) playing the game instead of teens?

Is GW finally re-focusing on an older demographic?

Killgore
08-09-2008, 11:41
alot of the time the designers/ GW staff are pictured in the books playing the game

mabey its just a case of the photographer pulling any nearby staffer to help out when they need such a picture

Chaos and Evil
08-09-2008, 11:44
I think it's a concious decision, so that sales staff in stores can pick up a box/codex to show a potential customer, and not be showing a 20+ year-old a picture of two 12 year-olds playing Warhammer.

Kids don't mind pictures of older guys playing, because they often actually aspire to do the same thing that adults do, whilst adults are no longer put off potentially playing because most of the evidence in front of their eyes tells them that GW wargaming is a hobby for children.


On the other hand, I think that whilst the intended age demographic of Warhammer 40,000 has been raising lately, the intended demographic for Warhammer Fantasy has been on a slide towards a younger audience.

insaniak
08-09-2008, 12:46
Anyone notice that between Apocalypse, the new 5th ed rulebook and the Black Reach intro booklet, GW has been using photos of older people in their 20s (including some receding hairlines and "crow's feet" eyelines) playing the game instead of teens?

No more so than usual given that, as Killgore said, the pictures are generally of staff,




Is GW finally re-focusing on an older demographic?

I have yet to see any evidence that they were ever focused on a younger one. About the only thing people have ever given as 'proof' of it is the gradual simplification of the rules... which I don't see as proof of a younger target since the older I get the more I appreciate a more simple ruleset.

Chaos and Evil
08-09-2008, 13:11
I have yet to see any evidence that they were ever focused on a younger one. About the only thing people have ever given as 'proof' of it is the gradual simplification of the rules... which I don't see as proof of a younger target since the older I get the more I appreciate a more simple ruleset.

There's a difference between a simple ruleset and a simple gameplay experience.

Master Jeridian
08-09-2008, 13:20
A clear, concise, balanced rule set that allows a variety of tactical choices whilst being intuitively 'realistic' (e.g. cover To Hit modifiers, your harder to hit, you don't have a magical tree save).

That would be aimed at older players who have found other games that satisy this criteria, and may entice them back.

Showing me pictures of older players playing...no, not really.

I think the term age should be replaced with mental age, as I've met many a childish adult and mature child.

On mental age, 40k is clearly aimed at the lowest common denominator- the simpler you are, the more people will be able to understand and buy it. That it makes the game over-simplistic, patronising and poor, well them's the sacrifices.

d-p3h3d
08-09-2008, 13:33
If so, more power to them. To be frank, 40k, Fantasy, and pretty much all table top games tend to mesh more smoothly with the domain of "older people." "Young people" (AKA darn whipper snappers) tend to be too impatient or unfocused to get much out of or bring much to the hobby. Though there certainly are exceptions.

As Jeridian said: Mental Age.

Chaos and Evil
08-09-2008, 14:06
On mental age, 40K is clearly aimed at the lowest common denominator- the simpler you are, the more people will be able to understand and buy it. That it makes the game over-simplistic, patronising and poor, well them's the sacrifices.

I wouldn't say it's aimed at the lowest common denominator, but it is aimed primarily at kids aged 10-14, with additional concessions towards adults.

It's a product of compromise, essentially, and I think that's okay because Warhammer 40,000 is an awesome game for kids to be playing... but if you want to try a more adult-intended wargame set in the 41st millenium, then Epic is the game for you.

imperial_scholar
08-09-2008, 15:21
I think it is marketed towards adult. However, my recent trip to my local GW to pick up my black reach box; there was dozens of guys under 15 (minimum I'd say 7 years of age) and one guy who was easily in his late 40's. I don't think the age really makes a difference. Depicting older people playing the game would be smarter though. Since they don't have to hire 'models' to pretend to play the game, and the older the precieved player, people won't say "I'm too old for warhammer" at the age of 20.

trukkasaurus
08-09-2008, 15:54
i can honestly say in my local gw (cardiff) on the occasion i pop in i am usually the oldest person there...excluding mums and dads..and im 29!!!

The music they play instore has changed though...gone has appalling cheese pop...more rock based!!! No death metal yet though rather depressingly ...perhaps its a culture change rather than an age diff?

Emperor's Grace
08-09-2008, 16:36
I have yet to see any evidence that they were ever focused on a younger one.

Pictures in WD do it for me.

The "Golden Age" had pics of the staff in varying states of decomp much more often (and WD had more "cults of personality" going).

The last few years we had pictures (that I considered carefully constructed due to their nature) of a pretty teenage girl getting painting instruction, a "jock archetype" (college age/late teen sunglasses, built, sports logo shirt) celebrating victory, pics of stores that include multiple minors, etc...

Now, the crusty staff are starting to reappear just as they add materials that would appeal to a "player of more experience".

Heck, Tom Kirby himself showed up in a pic or two hanging around the studio game - just after the boards were making issue of him not being involved enough/a gamer.

I don't think that it's coincidental. I think that they are attempting to craft their image (as they should) and I for one am happy with that - as WD was always better when it seemed to be run by the same kind of demented folks that you'd grab a beer and game with. :D

Where did the talk of bacon butties and cats attacking fish and chip platters go? :)

trukkasaurus
08-09-2008, 17:09
Looks like the nerds are taking back the power from the suits? lol!!! there will be a password on the door next....

Lungboy
08-09-2008, 18:09
I have yet to see any evidence that they were ever focused on a younger one. About the only thing people have ever given as 'proof' of it is the gradual simplification of the rules... which I don't see as proof of a younger target since the older I get the more I appreciate a more simple ruleset.

Didn't they pull the Realms of Chaos books and rewrite alot of the contents to tone it down for a younger audience as it was deemed too violent?

Alessander
08-09-2008, 18:23
After the two Realms of Chaos books had been out, GW re-focused on younger kids, using much less "scary" and graphic artwork, dumbed down the rules, and added more kid-appealing creature like "snotlings".

Does this also mesh with the time when GW refocused on selling their own miniature ranges, as opposed to other game systems like D&D?

Slaaneshi Slave
08-09-2008, 18:52
Nah, they stopped selling D&D years before Rogue Trader was out, and they didn't start dumbing down the image until early to mid 2nd Ed, even though the rules were dumbed down a lot between Rogue Trader and 2nd. Even more than between 2nd and 3rd.

boogle
08-09-2008, 20:18
Where did the talk of bacon butties and cats attacking fish and chip platters go? :)

They are now running Warlord Games

cailus
09-09-2008, 00:09
All up I'd say it's been a downward slide towards children.

The rules have been one element of this re-orientation towards kids.

The imagery is getting less and less dark and more and more typical good guy-bad guy drivel such as that displayed Star Wars or Star Trek.

For example:

- New Daemonette models are a lot less blatantly sexual - no bare nipples, forms are muscular

- Chaos fluff seems to be more and more one of generic evil warlords than one of bitter and twisted individuals driven by religious and ideological and ideological agendas. Emphasis on renegades is an example of this. Basically we went from "the Emperor betrayed us, the Imperium will burn for its crimes against us and what we stand for" to "Arrgh we be spikey space pirates with emo fringes."

- Chaos Gods are now simplified to Khorne = killing stuff, Slaaneesh = pleasure, Nurgle = Disease and Tzeentch = Magic. There does appear to be no depth to the Chaos gods.

- Marines are now portrayed as the good guys.

- Guard are now portrayed as the good guys.

- Overall depth to the fluff is being reduced in favour of simplified explanations to everything.

samiens
09-09-2008, 00:20
I think theres two elements- firstly the globalisation of the brand means that ceratin things- daemonettes nipples for example- have had to go.

Nonetheless, I think they are reverting to an older demographic. My evidence, the fact that the White dwarf no longer gives the editorials at the sart of White Dwarf- that really put me off as it stank of childishness.

RexTalon
09-09-2008, 00:24
All up I'd say it's been a downward slide towards children.

The rules have been one element of this re-orientation towards kids.

The imagery is getting less and less dark and more and more typical good guy-bad guy drivel such as that displayed Star Wars or Star Trek.

For example:

- New Daemonette models are a lot less blatantly sexual - no bare nipples, forms are muscular

- Chaos fluff seems to be more and more one of generic evil warlords than one of bitter and twisted individuals driven by religious and ideological and ideological agendas. Emphasis on renegades is an example of this. Basically we went from "the Emperor betrayed us, the Imperium will burn for its crimes against us and what we stand for" to "Arrgh we be spikey space pirates with emo fringes."

- Chaos Gods are now simplified to Khorne = killing stuff, Slaaneesh = pleasure, Nurgle = Disease and Tzeentch = Magic. There does appear to be no depth to the Chaos gods.

- Marines are now portrayed as the good guys.

- Guard are now portrayed as the good guys.

- Overall depth to the fluff is being reduced in favour of simplified explanations to everything.

You beat me to it.

RavingGuard
09-09-2008, 08:19
over the last year i have noticed GW moving to capture (or simply retain) a more adult audience. increased promotion of forgeworld mini's, the release of apocalypse and a good new set of rules full of interesting content and expanded background appeal very much to the older gamer. whilst the hobby obviously needs to pull in kids at a young age to maintain sales, i hope that it can now retain more gamers into their 20's and that the rewards of this will be reaped in the future when we have more adults to play against.

Znail
09-09-2008, 10:43
Well, If I were GW so would I aim towards getting young people to start playing but also to make the older people keep buying. I think this is probobly the best tactic for them. Atleast I got in contact with the games while young, but buys more now.

7th
09-09-2008, 13:38
I think theres two elements- firstly the globalisation of the brand means that ceratin things- daemonettes nipples for example- have had to go.

Nonetheless, I think they are reverting to an older demographic. My evidence, the fact that the White dwarf no longer gives the editorials at the sart of White Dwarf- that really put me off as it stank of childishness.

Are you sure? I'm positive the most recent UK WD has an editorial with the editor (I'm not even sure who edits it any more) bleeting on about the experience of opening the new 40k set. The cynic alarm went off and it just came across as thinly veiled advertising / hype for 40k.


Well, If I were GW so would I aim towards getting young people to start playing but also to make the older people keep buying. I think this is probobly the best tactic for them. Atleast I got in contact with the games while young, but buys more now.

GW do do this, remember Heroquest and Space Crusade from the early nineties? Heroquest alone was responsible for my subsequent entry to Games Workshop's games and I know plenty of others who came to GW in the same way.

I believe the LOTR game was intended to perform a similar role, get players in on the back of LOTR hype and sucker them in to playing 40k / Warhammer.

Helicon_One
09-09-2008, 13:39
I'd say the 'kiddification' of 40K really came along in the early 90's - Blood Angels and Ultramarines and Orks painted in bright, eye-catching colour schemes, and they even went as far as to to release Space Crusade through MB as a gateway drug to bring Space Marines onto the shelves of Argos and Woolworths and to the attention of the pre-to-early teen crowd (including myself, and it certainly worked in my case!).

I actually see more recent developments in 3rd Ed onwards as less aimed at a younger crowd than they were back then (and no, 2nd Ed and its dog's dinner of needlessly fiddly and complex rules doesn't make it more 'grownup' or 'mature', it just makes it a dog's dinner of needlessly fiddly and complex rules).

Templar Ben
09-09-2008, 13:47
Are you sure? I'm positive the most recent UK WD has an editorial with the editor (I'm not even sure who edits it any more) bleeting on about the experience of opening the new 40k set. The cynic alarm went off and it just came across as thinly veiled advertising / hype for 40k.

He is referring to the fact that THE White Dwarf (Grombrindle or whatever his name is) was used as the editor and would write about GW games as if there was really a 500 year old dwarf playing. Imagine if you will a fan magazine for Star Wars with the first two pages being Jar Jar explaining how "Meesa goin' ta see da new movie on da BIGGGGG Screen!!!!!!!"


I believe the LOTR game was intended to perform a similar role, get players in on the back of LOTR hype and sucker them in to playing 40k / Warhammer.

Too bad LotR was too good. There was little reason to stop playing LotR and start playing Fantasy.

EldarWolf
09-09-2008, 15:08
I have yet to see any evidence that they were ever focused on a younger one. About the only thing people have ever given as 'proof' of it is the gradual simplification of the rules... which I don't see as proof of a younger target since the older I get the more I appreciate a more simple ruleset.

Bear in mind that I'm talking of 20 years ago, I used to be part-time staff at a GW store. Head office were constantly telling us that our sales target were 12-14 years old. Once we tried to reorder some T-shirts in L & XL sizes because we'd sold out, (had lots of S & Med left...) they refused to do it as we couldn't possibly have sold out of stuff that was only there as a sop to the odd parent wanting a matching shirt to his kids. We were sent more M & S sizes as "these were the ones that sold best", they spent the following 6 months berating the permanent staff for not selling these unwanted shirts.
Then they started telling staff what music to play in the store, unfortunately neither their target age customers or the parents who bought their stuff appreciated thrash metal at volume 10, nor did the staff.
Now they have changed for the better in all these respects, but there was a time where they pulled stuff so stupid you wouldn't believe...

Metaphorazine
09-09-2008, 15:40
Chaos fluff seems to be more and more one of generic evil warlords than one of bitter and twisted individuals driven by religious and ideological and ideological agendas. Emphasis on renegades is an example of this. Basically we went from "the Emperor betrayed us, the Imperium will burn for its crimes against us and what we stand for" to "Arrgh we be spikey space pirates with emo fringes."

I gotta admit, I'm not really up on the chaos fluff, but I see a book focusing on the previously loyal servants of the imperium who have served faithfully for a millennium finally denouncing their god-emperor and turning against his works and deserting the slowly dying husk of a once-great empire to join their heretical brothers that once they fought bitterly against to be slightly more mature and not to mention a whole lot more compelling than "Bawww, daddy doesn't love me enough for me to have a holiday on terra with him, ooo, khorne has teh shineys! THE EMPEROR MUST DIE!"

The Horus Heresy is important, sure, but the end-days of the imperium are what is interesting to me. Mind you, I prefer ork fluff anyway. *shrug*


Are you sure? I'm positive the most recent UK WD has an editorial with the editor (I'm not even sure who edits it any more) bleeting on about the experience of opening the new 40k set. The cynic alarm went off and it just came across as thinly veiled advertising / hype for 40k.

Come on, you don't get excited tearing the shrink-wrap off a box full of models you've never seen in the flesh before? If not, I really pity you. I felt that way about my first battleforce, about the battle for macragge, about the new ork models, and I'm sure as hell going to feel that way about black reach. And I'm damn glad I can feel joy about my hobby.

7th
09-09-2008, 15:57
He is referring to the fact that THE White Dwarf (Grombrindle or whatever his name is) was used as the editor and would write about GW games as if there was really a 500 year old dwarf playing. Imagine if you will a fan magazine for Star Wars with the first two pages being Jar Jar explaining how "Meesa goin' ta see da new movie on da BIGGGGG Screen!!!!!!!"

Ah gotya... I don't think I even ever bothered reading the 'grombrindal' editorials, it's like they just didn't exist :D

Do they still do the little editorial comments in articles? like...

(that's the last time I let him away from his desk! - Grombrindal)

...?


Come on, you don't get excited tearing the shrink-wrap off a box full of models you've never seen in the flesh before? If not, I really pity you. I felt that way about my first battleforce, about the battle for macragge, about the new ork models, and I'm sure as hell going to feel that way about black reach. And I'm damn glad I can feel joy about my hobby.

Sorry, what I said might have read a little different to how it was intended! don't get me wrong, I love that feeling as much as the next guy but I think my cynicism has grown as I've gotten older.

That particular editorial brought out the cynic in me, I will get excited about a new release, if I didn't then I wouldn't be pursuing the right hobby after all but it simply read like they were telling me how I should be feeling about it.

Eh, maybe I should lay off the cynicism where GW is concerned.

Sorry if you mistook my comments as a dig at our hobby, it really wasn't meant to come across that way... and for the record, I got up early on saturday like an excited child and I popped into my local GW as early as I could to pick up my copy and couldn't wait to get it home to have a good look at the models inside (errr... I'm 28 going on 29... and my first 'omg new boxset!' experience was with the 2nd edition epic, or just 'space marine' as it was known back then... I still get the 'new stuff' buzz!)

:D

Time to drag this back on topic... !!

Lisiecki
09-09-2008, 16:18
ya it just sucks when kids play
i mean i started playing when i was
lets see 27-17


10
and i was old and mature

Templar Ben
09-09-2008, 16:26
Come on, you don't get excited tearing the shrink-wrap off a box full of models you've never seen in the flesh before? If not, I really pity you. I felt that way about my first battleforce, about the battle for macragge, about the new ork models, and I'm sure as hell going to feel that way about black reach. And I'm damn glad I can feel joy about my hobby.

I will admit that I don't feel a rush when I open a box. My hobby is not paying GW. My hobby is pushing tin. Opening the box, building the minis, priming, painting, basing same are all the steps I do before I actually get to play.

Maybe I am just too old.

Dangersaurus
09-09-2008, 17:11
People in their 20's are older players?

:cries:

Eryx_UK
09-09-2008, 17:35
Then they started telling staff what music to play in the store, unfortunately neither their target age customers or the parents who bought their stuff appreciated thrash metal at volume 10, nor did the staff.
Now they have changed for the better in all these respects, but there was a time where they pulled stuff so stupid you wouldn't believe...

I helped out at the Cambridge (UK) store the first year it opened (about 1990), and we would play rock and metal alongside movie scores (mainly Aliens and Terminator 2 as I recall). Towards the end of the year, the head office insisted that we change from that to dance and rap. Bang, straight away we lost the majority of our customers and I'm including the kids there almost based on that.

Following that it really did seem that GW were trying to ditch their established player base in favour of drawing the kids in. Thats when a lot of the GW hating began because they weren't interested in that customer base who had been with them for so long.

Emperor's Grace
10-09-2008, 15:38
They are now running Warlord Games

That would be the bacon butties. Where's Mike?



Do they still do the little editorial comments in articles?


Yes, but like the old days, it's the actual editor making light fun of the folks in the article. I welcome the return of humor.

See tale of four gamers in the issue before the current one (first example I could think of).


I will admit that I don't feel a rush when I open a box. <edit> My hobby is pushing tin. Opening the box, building the minis, priming, painting, basing same are all the steps I do before I actually get to play.

Maybe I am just too old.

Nah, just different focus. I'll admit to the "rush" but my main focus has always been building/converting. Painting is something that I do to make my building look better. Gaming is an excuse to show off/use the stuff I built and socialize. I get the same rush opening a box of LEGO, too....


People in their 20's are older players?

:cries:

Hope not. I'm 36. I thought that only Crazy Harborc counted as old :D

IJW
10-09-2008, 16:06
After the two Realms of Chaos books had been out, GW re-focused on younger kids, using much less "scary" and graphic artwork, dumbed down the rules, and added more kid-appealing creature like "snotlings".
Huh? Snotlings came out earlier than Slaves to Darkness. ;)

BladeWalker
10-09-2008, 16:16
My 8 year old son loves 5th Edition, our games are fast and fun now. The quality of the miniatures and the value of the larger kits appeals to me, being able to play games in half the time appeals to us both. He was confused and impatient with 4th rules, now he "gets it" and is using strategies and tactics. It may be streamlined or "dumbed down" from the early days (I still have my Rogue Trader book) but I think our family (Mom too) being able to play it together and have fun speaks to how the game is for everyone.

If the kids want it, the parents will buy it. Trust me. ;)