PDA

View Full Version : Does 5th edition and the new SM codex kill fluffy Nids?



Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 13:21
I am running a fluffy Nid list with a lot of Gautns and small critters. So far, 5th edition only screwed this list. Now with the advent of the SM codex, it seems even worse. Why?

- Now twice as many Gaunts die than before (and comparing the old Chaos Space Marine codes to the new one, it's now even four times the Gaunts, when comparing Chaos Marines to Gautns), because of No Retreat. Also they are even a problem in multiple combats, because now you will lose your units, that attacked the target you initially swamped with your Gaunts in the first place. So they are totally useless against MEQs, unless you play them extremely unfluffy and actually HIDE them, which totally sucks.

- Gaunts are supposed to screen other units AND hold objectives AND swamp the enemy. All at the same time. And in 5th they suck at all these three tasks taken alone. So WTF?!?

- SM get new Land Raiders. These Land Raiders are designet to take on hordes. And they can not be destroyed by horde units. They can only get glanced. And not only can these units not be destroyed by glancing hits, they also ignore or severely limit the negative effects of a glancing hit, so it makes no sense at all, to fire at them or engage them in close combat

- SM get a new special character, that seems to make other vehicles aswell ignore most effects of glancing hits

- SM get new Dreadnoughts, that can not be effectiveley fought in close combat by swarmy Nid units (what a coincidence, that the rending nerf and the new AV13 have such an effect...) and ranged weaponry is quite useless aswell

- we will see a lot of Land Raider armies, because they simply are very good for points denial and objective contesting now.

So what exactly is the point of playing Non-Zilla Nids in 5th? The most played army in the game seems to get toys, that are especially effective against Nids and they ignore many rules in the new rulebook that were (at least GW says so) put in to make the game "better". I mean, WTF?

zakk_wylde001
09-09-2008, 13:27
If it's a Fluff based list, then it isn't really designed to be ultra-competitive from the start. At least, that's what I've always thought about fluff lists.

samiens
09-09-2008, 13:30
Absolutely, you can't expect to compete with tournament lists with a fluff list- if you could then army building would be redundant.

Killgore
09-09-2008, 13:31
All those toys you mentioned in the new SM codex cost a pretty hefty amount of points

remember that most of the new missions in 40k relies on objectives, if you destroy all of those scoring units of marines and scouts the most the marine player can hope to achieve would be a draw or to wipe you out

a fluffy Tyranid list imho is a combinaton of all Tyranid units, thats a selection of Carnifexs, Zoanthropes, plenty of Guants, some Warriors and stealers and a Tyrant etc

if you play these units in the correct combos those pesky Spacemarines will get slaughtered :D

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 13:31
So this is an excuse? Fluffy lists are never and should never be competetive? Huh?
I think it should be exactly the other way around. The most fluffy lists should be the most effective, at least if we are talking about good game design.

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 13:34
a fluffy Tyranid list imho is a combinaton of all Tyranid units, thats a selection of Carnifexs, Zoanthropes, plenty of Guants, some Warriors and stealers and a Tyrant etc


I am usinig exactly this kind of list.

1 Flyrant
1 Walking Tyrant
100 Gaunts
20 Genestealers
1 Dakkafex
1 Sniperfex
1 Lictor
Winged Warriors
Shooty Warriors

This list will have no chance against a list with more than one Land Raider (and it's contents like Assault Marines). Which we will see a lot.

Oh, i forgot Assault Marines, with their 3+ invulnerable save, which can not be fought with any Tyranid unit effectively.

So this stuff is pricey? Who cares? I can't kill it. I won't get KPs for them. Or VPs. If you could make a list with 5 Nid units for 2000 points, that can not be killed by the enemy, then why would i complain about the price. I can contest all objectives and still win with KPs or VPs.

Also, you consider an SM army, that includes this:
- Siege Dreadnought
- 2 Land Raiders
- Assault Terminators
- Sternguard
as ultracompetetive list? It's probably a very typical 5th edition SM list...

zakk_wylde001
09-09-2008, 13:38
And how would you suppose that would work? By making a fluffy list, you instantly write out a number of troop choices to yourself (if that's the kind of fluff you're going for). The only way that could work is to choose the most powerful army available and then write fluff around that.

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 13:42
And how would you suppose that would work? By making a fluffy list, you instantly write out a number of troop choices to yourself (if that's the kind of fluff you're going for). The only way that could work is to choose the most powerful army available and then write fluff around that.

No. It would work like this:
Design a codex, that works with a playstyle, that does not contradict established fluff. Or at least don't change the rules afterwards, so that the fluffy playstyle is useless.
This is impossible? I don't think so. It works like this:
- leave rending for Nids as it was before
- no "No Retreat" wounds for Synapse
See? It's that easy. Hey, that was 4th edition. And fluffy lists worked there (I don't say they were better than the horrible Nidzilla lists, but at least they WORKED). Strange, isn't it...?

Darkangeldentist
09-09-2008, 13:44
Fluffy lists will never do very well against tournament styled competitive lists.

However I do regard non-nidzilla nids still very competitive if played well. Gaunts are a admittedly much much worse in combat although they can actually last longer against things like dreadnaughts and wraithlords than before. Giving anything behind them a 4+ cover save is a huge bonus and I think alone makes a horde of nids much scarier. The warriors will often make it to combat in a much better stat than before. Feeder tendrils are just amazing and since they don't actually have to be in combat to work mean you can do some very sneaky things with them.

My old nid list which had a bit of everything is still about as competitive as it was before with only some minor modifications. (Some flesh hooks and feeder tendrils.) You just have to be a lot more careful about throwing your gaunts into combat.

samiens
09-09-2008, 13:44
This is a joke right? You can't beat what sounds like a poorly built marine list (you need objective grabbers after all) with a well rounded balanced Tyranid army? Not to mention the fact that your monstrous creatures will still rip through land raiders, which can be easily enough avoided. Seriously, you have 4 monstrous creatures who are all capable of destroying a land raider in close combat. Plus, 20 stealers will kill assault marines (or terminators whatever)- you fail a 3+ save 1/3 of the time so thats 3 wounds per kill- not a difficult feat, even with just that number of gaunts. I think you need to calm down and think about changing your tactics rather than your list...

Sureshot05
09-09-2008, 13:44
Also, you consider an SM army, that includes this:
- Siege Dreadnought
- 2 Land Raiders
- Assault Terminators
- Sternguard
as ultracompetetive list? It's probably a very typical 5th edition SM list...

I see three units that cannot even contest objectives, 1 that can contest and 1 possible that can control objectives (if you take the special character - and all of this is RUMOUR!!). I think that will be the easiest list to beat in 2/3rds of the missions. I think you're still thinking a little too 4th Ed. Without anything to capture at least 3 objectives, then the list is already in deep trouble against that many troops choices. As for kill point missions, I think that 'nid list will always struggle unless against guard (well, certainly mine!).

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 13:54
Okay, so the general consensus is:

5th edition did kill fluffy Nid lists.

And the justification is: "It should be this way, because fluffy lists never are competetive.". And this is okay and this is the way it should be.

Did i get this right?

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 13:57
Plus, 20 stealers will kill assault marines (or terminators whatever)- you fail a 3+ save 1/3 of the time so thats 3 wounds

20 Genestealers? Who on earth manages to get 2 squads of Genestealers unharmed into contact with Assault Terminators. Do you think the SM player is an idiot?

Also note, that we are talking about a bunch of Genestealers, that cost almost twice as much (considering usual upgrades) as your typical 5 men Terminator unit...

wilycoyote
09-09-2008, 14:07
Hi,

I think the problem is what you define as a "fluffy" list.

I play Nids (and Orks) and recognise them as a horde army, the come forward in massed waves of claw and chitin and overwhelm their opponents. however, by the same token they will inevitably die in droves.

Your list reflects this onslaught approach. As others have said there are elements that can take out your opponent, tactics, terrain and luck permitting (outflanking stealers, risky but can throw an opponent off?).

However, another valid "fluffy" list is the Nidzilla. Rubbish, you might say but I would contend that it is the Hive Mind reacted to a strong line of defence.

The codex lists reflect this allowing players to build as they see fit.

I argue that "fluff" (especially as it is afterall fiction) is in the eye of the beholder.

Wilyc

Brother Loki
09-09-2008, 14:16
You have what looks like 6 troop choices. Ignore the land raiders and kill his troops, and then claim all the objectives. Seems to me that 5th edition has made fluffy nids stronger, by making the emphasis on gaunts and genestealers, and getting rid of the 2 small ripper swarms and a bunch of monstrous creatures style nidzilla lists.

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 14:23
Hey! Ignoring 50% of his army, while it shoots and assaults my army to death! Now that sounds like a great and fun idea...

ChrisMurray
09-09-2008, 14:40
Hey! Ignoring 50% of his army, while it shoots and assaults my army to death! Now that sounds like a great and fun idea...

Why not, everyone ignores necron monoliths which in smaller games can easily be 50% of there army. - and C'Tan too.

Anyway the suggestion isn't to ignore them it's to prioritise, if your opponent has taken very few troops then you go for his troops so that it's impossible to win.

I personally think that all gaunt armies are fun and can do quite well, especially against armies that are expensive pts wise like space marines.

Stingray_tm
09-09-2008, 14:46
Why not, everyone ignores necron monoliths which in smaller games can easily be 50% of there army. - and C'Tan too.


Because this situation sucks aswell! You are justifying one example of bad game design with another example of bad game design. And neither situation is fun for the player, who has to face these opponents.



Anyway the suggestion isn't to ignore them it's to prioritise, if your opponent has taken very few troops then you go for his troops so that it's impossible to win.

But he will win, if he contests all objectives and has taken out more VPs than i did (and i can't take out 50% of his army).
It's not like my ubergaunts will survive the game, no matter what...

==Me==
09-09-2008, 14:56
Can I have your stuff?

Now, seriously, I think Tyranids are fine with 5th and the new marine codex won't do anything beyond makes marines viable beyond las/plas.

All that uber stuff is very expensive points wise and doesn't score, so 2/3 of games you can win through weight of numbers holding objectives. In KP missions, keep your gaunts in or behind cover to keep them from dying. Dislodging 20+ bugs going to ground in a forest is a daunting task for anyone.

Try some different tactics, field some new unit or configurations. Your old tricks from 4th edition don't work any more, so try something else.

zakk_wylde001
09-09-2008, 15:01
Okay, so the general consensus is:

5th edition did kill fluffy Nid lists.

And the justification is: "It should be this way, because fluffy lists never are competetive.". And this is okay and this is the way it should be.

Did i get this right?

The idea of a fluffy army is to be more fun than competitive. What I'm saying is that a fluff build *should be* fun regardless of how powerful it is.
A fluff list is designed to be played for fun, not to steamroll everything.

EDIT:Have you actually played this battle out? I think that you should stop complaining and go and have some fun.

Canadianllama
09-09-2008, 15:24
Stingray…… You already did a thread on these lines (evil 5 ed and the bastard landraider of doom). Why do you feel the need of doing these threads? The members of this forum can not change the rules for you, and we all know how much you hate the new rules, so why not go rant to GW (may they forgive me for sending you that direction!).

Your posts are rather aggressive and angry for discussing little toy soldiers, if not for the frequency of your posts and constant theme and attitude, this would lead me to suspecting you of trolling.

I doubt this post will have any impression on you, because you have ignored others along these lines often enough. My hope is that other members of this forum will stop posting on your threads, they will only have their comments tossed back at them with malice.

spagunk
09-09-2008, 15:27
I faced a rather "Fluffy" list of nids just last night...got my ceremite coated rear handed to me. He had a flyrant (2 Weapons and 2 guns), a walking tryrant with guards, 2 shooty fexes, 1 dakkafex, 2 stealer squads, 2 zoanthropes, and 3 or 4 termy/hormi squads...all for 1850!

Sounds fluffy enough to me.

itcamefromthedeep
09-09-2008, 15:37
Most of my 5th edition games have been played with:

1 walking cc Tyrant
1 walking ranged Tyrant
1 Dakkafex
1 mixed fex (talons/strangler)
3 Warriors with deathspitters/talons
12 Scuttling Genestealers
12 Scuttling Genestealers
8 Scuttling Genestealers
16 Termagants
16 Termagants
16 Termagants

I have had a surprisingly good record with this list, something on the order of 15-2-0. Now I haven't been using it in tournaments, nor have I been playing against the most skillful or WAACy opponents, but that's not what we're talking about here. I'm convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that in a friendly environment, balanced armies (from any book) are effective.

What you have to remember is that Gaunts are objective holders, nothing more. They are there to sit on top of objectives while your heavy hitters clear them or keep the enemy away. Just like in the fluff.

itcamefromthedeep
09-09-2008, 15:51
20 Genestealers? Who on earth manages to get 2 squads of Genestealers unharmed into contact with Assault Terminators. Do you think the SM player is an idiot?

I bring 32. If I lose 12 to missile fire, that leaves 20 for combat. It's not so hard.

Just about every matchup you can imagine can and has happened in a game.


Also note, that we are talking about a bunch of Genestealers, that cost almost twice as much (considering usual upgrades) as your typical 5 men Terminator unit...

Part of the skill required to play this game is forcing unfavorable matchups, like ways to put 500pts of your troops against 150 of your opponent's, such as having that Land Raider bringing Assault Terminators into contact with a Guardian squad. The Guardians are screwed. Which, of course, is the point.

You kill Hammer/Shield Terminators with Devourers and Fleshborers. Send 32 or so of those Gaunts and a Dakkafex to shoot the snot out of those Terminators. 2+ isn't much better then 3+, so deny your opponent the value of those Storm Shields by simply forcing lots of normal armor saves.

Vepr
09-09-2008, 17:00
The fact that LR's can park on an objective and the troops inside can claim the objective sucks a little especially for more swarm oriented lists because there is no ignoring them then. As much as people despise nidzilla I think we are going to see a lot more of it.

I am going to try out a 4 MC list with 1 walking Tyrant with guards, 1 dakka fex, 1 sniper fex, and 1 CC fex to go along with my stealers, warriors, and gaunts.

McPherson
09-09-2008, 18:40
The fact that LR's can park on an objective and the troops inside can claim the objective sucks a little especially for more swarm oriented lists because there is no ignoring them then. As much as people despise nidzilla I think we are going to see a lot more of it.

I am going to try out a 4 MC list with 1 walking Tyrant with guards, 1 dakka fex, 1 sniper fex, and 1 CC fex to go along with my stealers, warriors, and gaunts.

Yes and no - its a great way of keeping an objective held but A. Its a lot of points (A minimum of 350+) tied up on an objective and B. A clever horde player can simply surround the LR with horde troopers then pop it either with a Anti tank shooting attack or walk a Fex up and hit the thing.

It's not moving so your autohitting and when it goes poof, the terminators/marines inside are dead with no way to disembark as all the exit points are clogged up with gaunts. Then you have the added bonus that you went from contesting a point to holding it securely in 1 attack.

But this is all theory hammer in the most ideal of worlds you can pull stuff like that off.

However to the OP - jeez louise stop complaining.

It's perfectly ok to build a fluffy nid list full of cheap gaunts to bury your enemy. The only hting you've lost is the eternal quagmire of 30 fearless gaunts, last time I checked gaunts can still hit with a lot of attacks on a charge, they may be pretty low quality attacks (Guard level) but if each gaunt in your squad of 30 is throwing out 2 or 3 attacks each, on average a space marine tac squad is going to die or loose out in the end.

Against 'elite assault infantry' yes Gaunts are going to go squish - but guess what, - thats fluffy. Gaunts are not meant to be able to pin down an assault terminator squad for a whole game in a quagmire of fearless chitin. No terminators can clean out hulks full of genestealers by themselves, why would they be phased by puny cheapgaunts? So now you must send elite units to deal with their elite units in CC - or bury them in 2+ armor saves from shooting - both are pretty viable.

And whaaa the Land Raider is broken - no its what it's always meant to be a brick fortress that moves, its meant to be hard to pop, remember the thing will usually only have a few hits a turn (unless its a crusader/redeemer) so you can easily avoid it - or you can walk up a monsterous creature that can take the heavy hits from lascannons because there arent enough shots a turn - or shrug off the hail of weenie fire from the crusader/redeemer varient and quite simply - violate the hell out of it.

Your so busy complaining about the loss of easy kills you forget that other things have become easier, your gaunt swarm with the 4 Str biomorph can pop predators now, feeder tendrils are just amazing, you have so many more cover saves now for your stealers and other units from that wall of gaunts running forward (again very fluffy) and you can no longer get screwed out of attacks back by a IC killing everything in his kill zone before you swing.

And finally yes it will seem like the new Marines for a while at least will dominate - they are getting a new codex, you are not. Remember when the new Nid Codex came out there was a lot of nid domination for a while, and when the next Nid Codex comes out to be in line with the new SM stuff it will probably dominate again.

And since I wont be getting any of these new SM toys for either of my armies (Orks and Blood Angels) you can forget calling me a SM Fanboy.

Thank you for your time.

- McPherson

Kalec
09-09-2008, 19:23
So this is what happens when what has always been the most overpriced transport in the game suddenly becomes viable: people complain they can't kill it. Interesting.

Madfool2
09-09-2008, 19:37
So this is what happens when what has always been the most overpriced transport in the game suddenly becomes viable: people complain they can't kill it. Interesting.

Seems that is the warseer way.

If someone's army doesn't work, and they are unwilling to change it, whine.

That and I love seeing land-raiders, not because it's expensive, because I love the look of the thing, a giant fortress of death!

Reinnon
09-09-2008, 19:49
<sigh> As soon as i saw the title i knew stingray had started it, I know I will get flamed for this, but here goes:

If your complaining about how much swarm nids suck: don't play them. I really doubt GW in their bunker said "you know, lets build the space marine codex to utterly pwn swarm nids, just to p*ss them off".

I agree that fluffy armies shouldn't be underpowered - but with swarm nids that just how it is at the moment. When making 5th ed GW couldn't (and shouldn't) have created a ruleset that is fair to each and every army build. Whenever you get a change of core rules in a system as complex as 40K there will always be winners and losers. In 5th ed, it is swarm nids - which was never the most powerful combo to begin with.

You (keep) complaining about land raiders - which have been for awhile overcosted tanks for the space marines generally. You complain that there is nothing your nids can do to destroy them. Yes nids have a weakness against armour 14 tanks - but so do daemon armies, so do ork armies. Swarm nids are not the only army that suffers whenever a land raider is put on the table.

I would love to see swarm nids as a viable army list, but until GW gets round to updating the nid codex (which is far off, as necrons, guard, wolves and dark eldar all are next in line) you just have to live with the fact that swarm nids isn't the most viable choice. GW can't make a completely balanced system, eeach and every army has viable and unviable options - some are fluffy, some are not.

Example: the old chaos codex, the one that people keep b*tching about as being overpowered: i played Thousand Sons - perhaps the weakest army combo available to chaos. Each and every book has a fluffy combo, some work like Orks, some don't like swarm nids.

You can either live with it, or change your army. But you have to accept the fact that the new space marines have new toys to destroy swarm nids. If your getting so worked up about the power level of space marines: play the damn army list then. 40K isn't and shouldn't be a matter of morality, its about having fun. Sometimes that requires just biting the bullet and moving on with your army.

Apart from that, there is nothing you can do about it. If it annoys you that badly write your own swarm nid army list and just don't use it at tournies. I for one am getting tired with warseers insistance on whining about every new codex that is produced.

BrainFireBob
09-09-2008, 20:17
Stingray says:

A 5th Edition list will probably include . . .

A standard 5th Marine list will probably look like . . .

Well, there's this one character . . .

Notice that what he's doing is designing a Nid counter-list with the new Marines rather than actually picking a balanced 5th list- and that he's cherry-picking some of the best anti-Nid units?

Typical Stingray alarmism, is all I see.

Lord Raneus
09-09-2008, 21:31
The idea of a fluffy army is to be more fun than competitive. What I'm saying is that a fluff build *should be* fun regardless of how powerful it is.
A fluff list is designed to be played for fun, not to steamroll everything.

EDIT:Have you actually played this battle out? I think that you should stop complaining and go and have some fun.

I agree one hundred percent.
I'm building, and have used, a 100% Drop Pod Marines army. Is it fluffy? Yes. Is it really effective? No. Do I have fun? Yes, lots.

And BrainFireBob is exactly right. If I'm building an all-purpose Marines list (like your Tyranid one) I am not throwing in two Land Raiders, and certainly not with Terminators inside them. That's something like 2/3 of my army already, with no HQ, in a standard points game.

What I will take is a good heaping of basic Marines, maybe a Termie squad, a Chapter Master, a Dread, Assault Marines/Scouts and a couple of tanks (probably Predators/Whirlwinds) and that's nothing you can't counter.

Essentially, what you're doing here is saying,
"Well, if my general, all-purpose list goes up against one specifically designed to counter it, I lose!"
Well, duh. :rolleyes:

Vault-Dweller
09-09-2008, 22:13
Do you want some chease with that whine?
Couldn't help myself.
But seriously if you don't tweak your list at al after a new edition you cant expect it to be as good as it could have been. You dont have to make it unfluffy, but when a new edition comes out things change.

And SM is the most played army so when they get a new codex the metagame change.

Bunnahabhain
09-09-2008, 22:14
My first reaction to the title was " No, a couple of Hellhounds kill fluffy nids"

Ok, new marines do look to be a top tier army, but until people actually have the codex in their hands, and we've all built, faced or both a couple of marine, I'm sitting way back from this rush to judgement.

Nids do have a few issues, and dealing with AV14 is one of them. It just so happens that power armour wearers are the only people with AV14 you have to deal with- monoliths you ignore, and russes you just assault and hit the AV10 at the back.

Even so, Nids are not in need of attention urgently.

The_Outsider
10-09-2008, 00:30
New marines are top notch....until you realise you are paying in the region of 200+ points for a decently equipped squad of decent size of anything.

Nids have a couple issues here and there, but nothing even remotely close to army breaking - i'd be worried if the new marine codex kills any of the 3rd ed codices full stop, fluffy or otherwise ('cept for DE who have no fluff lolololoolol......*sigh*).

max the dog
10-09-2008, 01:52
I feel your pain Stingray, my nids are having a terrible time in 5th edition too. While a horde list can still work it's very vulnerable to armor. Anyone armored player with any common sense will pound the genestealers with everything they got and then take the rest of the army to pieces at their leisure.
Non-nid players don't understand how much our options have been limited even when we don't play a fluffy list. Our only ranged attack that can kill a tank is attached to a limited number of BS3 psychers, our best close combat troop lost 25% of his former close combat ability while gaining nothing and costing the same, and previously viable tactical options have been made illegal.
The only thing we gained from 5th edition is running fex's and that's not nearly enough to make up for what we lost.

MasterDecoy
10-09-2008, 02:03
Seriously, they way some of you keep whinging about nids being nerfed (an I for one have had 0 problems adapting to 5th), Im suprised you have the courage to crawl out from under your bed to post.

I think your issues may be with trying to "kill" your enemy, rathar than to complete your objectives, not really that hard to do.

Killing your enemy should always come a distant 3rd priority (against 1st priority, COMPLETE YOUR OBJECTIVE, and 2nd Priority STOP YOUR OPPONENT COMPLETEING THEIRS, unless of course your objective is to kill the enemy, which it rarely is). if you dont have the imagination to work this out, you where probably doomed from the start.

Occulto
10-09-2008, 03:10
Funny, I remember Stingray posting numerous times that he wasn't going to play 5th ed.

So what's the point of this thread? :rolleyes:

Lazarus15
10-09-2008, 05:06
While I don't agree with everything he said, Stingray does have a point about the swarm not having a chance.

The balenced list I run:

Winged Hive Tyrant-ST's
Horms-16
Horms-16
Term- 18
G.Stlrs-8-carapce, feeder
" "
" "
Zoanthropes-3, synapse, warp blast
Biovores-3, bioacid
Carnifex-CC, chitin, carapace, regene, claws, tusked, talons

This list has had some good results, and matches largely what I ran last edition, but without the shooting, and Flying Tyrant, Armor makes a mockery of Nyds.

I believe the two crappiest rules in the new edition is by far and away the consolidation/massacre rule and the fearless "no retreat" rule.

I could see massacres being allowed to get into combat and consolidation no, but to cut it out all together is bullsh.t. The idea that T3, 6+ armor save models have to take additional armor saves for not killing more SMURFS than they killed of them, because a rule that is SUPPOSED to help nyds, actually screws them is appalling. I know people think that fearless needed to be "fixed", however overcompensating is not the answer. As far as the consolidation goes, I can live with that (lol but not like it). All in all though the new rules are good, except these two.

shabbadoo
10-09-2008, 05:59
Swarms totally have a chance. They just need to be backed up by the right things. 3 Zoanthropes would be a very good thing for starters, and a Flyrant with Warp Blast has a decent enough chance of taking down a Land Raider all by itself(and it costs about 100 points less).

It is unfluffy for Tyranids to hide? Genestealers are Tyranids and they wrote the book on hiding. Only a massive, unwieldy, teaming horde of tens of thousands of Tyranids will simply swarm forth and not hide, but a smaller group of them will do everything in its power to avoid damage while getting to grips with the enemy. Not wanting to be needlessly killed is also part of instinct.

As to that Tyranid army list, you could try going with one less Carnifex and Hive tyrant, and putting in even more little guys. Even better, ditch the Genestealers too, as they are way overcosted for what they can currently do. That will add yet another 60 little guys to your list(that is three times the wounds for the enemy to kill, and 50% more attacks against the enemy overall- and two times as many on the charge). Two Land Raiders are relatively useless against that many little things, and seldom will they ever earn their points back(even a Crusader). Besides, with more little things you have more little guys getting 4+ cover saves. That many little guys will rip apart MEQs through sheer number of attacks. My Orks do it all of the time, such that the few Nobz with power klaws I do have in my army seldom get to even use their attacks.

There is this tactic called “ignoring things that really aren’t that effective against you anyways”, and this applies to the Land Raider. Tyranids can be built very simple to take every advantage of the 5e rules, and of the new Space Marines, who most people will be hard pressed not to take some of the new high point costed uber units, and who will then be outnumbered even more by a horde list. Orks and Tyranids both ought to eat them up very well.

Seems a bit like overreacting to state that a standard Tyrnaid army build is now crap because some tard might build a 3 Land Raider list(which is certainly NOT going to be found in a standard Space marines army list). Please, this is sort of a "Duh!" thing. Extreme army builds can very often be beaten with non-extreme ones, but not always. Either you have to play the idiot army build game, or simply not play games with people who build idiot army lists. So, the SM Commander, two full units of Scouts with cameleoline cloaks, two Techmarines(giving the Scouts a 2+ cover save in total for exceptional objective holding ability), 3 Land Raider, 1 Ironclad Dreadnought army lists are going to be dominating the Tournament scene I guess(and totally owning Tyranid swarms too of course).

Eulenspiegel
10-09-2008, 07:06
Well Stingray does have a point.

Currently, the only Tyranid build that has any chance in random games is the Nidzilla list. Being that it was inserted into the 4th edition Codex like an afterthought, and propably not being given much thought, and that on top of that such Tyranid armies were unheard of (in game or in background stories), this annoys me and many others who hate bigbug armies.

I started my Nids because I wanted the swarm that was controlled by Warriors, backed up with a Carnifex and led by a Tyrant. 2nd edition style.
Now this army cannot stand up to anything led by a half competent player, and the new Marines merely seem (have to be careful, the dex is not even released) to make that bias worse.


But ...

Tyranids are still 4th edition (and very early 4th at that).


There is always some friction, sometimes a lot of friction, when editions are being changed and the new Codexes come out.
For the time being: if you like your "traditional" Tyranid army and like to have more than an outside chance in games, put them into your miniatures cabinet until the 5th Edition Nids are being released.



Which may be some years. I haven´t even heard they´re working on them.

bobmiester
10-09-2008, 07:41
I think the nid horde actually got a boost from 5th. The hitting rear armour in assaults mean that gaunts call take out almost all vehicles alone, only the LR and Monolith are immune really. Also with the change to killzone, gaunts can now wipe a whole unit even in a partial assault.

Kank
10-09-2008, 08:21
All 'Nid armies are fluffy. That's what's great about the race. Anything you field is just a different part of a billion strong force.

About swarm armies. Yeah, they have a real weakness against certain things. Then again, almost every army build for ANY army has a major weakness against something.

I already posted (in another thread) on the viablity of 'Nids in 5e. I'm not going to do so again. There are a couple of things though:

No Retreat - Yes, this can be annoying with things like Gaunts. Thing is, I really do feel that fearless units NEED a downside like this. While this hurts me a bit.. I really do think it's fair for the game as a whole. This is coming from a guy who runs 'Nids as his main army and Daemons as his second.


WE CAN'T KILL ARMOR - Well, we can't kill Land Raiders with Stealers.. but they tend to own the lesser armored tanks. I've always used Stealers for things like Termies and the like. I have plenty of other ways to kill heavy armor. Gaunts CAN NOT kill a Land Raider.. so what?

Look, I know it sucks when a build you want to run gets weaker. No one likes it when something they have the most fun with gets weaker. My point, however, is that 'Nids as an army are still VERY strong. Not just Nidzilla either. I tend to run a more balanced list.

samiens
10-09-2008, 11:28
Well, my girlfirend has little problem getting full genestealer squads into combat, you can outflank or even hide! Plus who said anything about all 20 having to get into combat to beat the assault terminators? Depending on your upgrades 10 might do, or 10 and a unit or so of gaunts, or 10 and the Flyrant?

The thing is you don't want to be convinced about how you could easily deal with this nightmare list- a list that certainly isn't going to be the absolute norm (personally I'm doing my own Jade Fist Drop Pod army- so your list scares me a little- but I like a challenge when I do come up against armies diametrically opposed to mine) In fact, given the utter neglection to take troops (terminators aren't troops in the new marine codex) most armies will be able to own this force.

Basically, here's the constructive advice- save your shooting for better targets and break tanks up close with one of your 4 (!) monstrous creatures or invest in a set of Zoanthropes (who I've found aren't that reliable but when it works it works). You can easily afford to sit sevral gaunt squads under synapse control on objectives, if you went to ground in cover that wouldn't be so easy to shift.

I'm out of symapthy, some players genuinely had to change their lists for 5th- your moaning because you might have to marginally alter your tactics...

Vineas
11-09-2008, 03:57
Stingray starts this thread but not a peep out of him in the past 24 hours or so. Either we scared him off or he doesn't have any counter-arguments.

Oh, this is stingray, he ALWAYS has counter-arguments. LOL.

Gensuke626
11-09-2008, 04:49
Stingray starts this thread but not a peep out of him in the past 24 hours or so. Either we scared him off or he doesn't have any counter-arguments.

Oh, this is stingray, he ALWAYS has counter-arguments. LOL.

He's probably sleeping/Getting ready to unleash his torrent of counter-arguements.

I have faith that he's going to return and put his foot in his mouth once again.

But slightly more on topic, did anyone really get a look at his list? I think he has 1 Lictor, 1 Sniperfex, 1 Dakkafex, and maybe 1 Zoanthrope supporting 100 gaunts.

I can't say that that's a strong or fluffy list. I always imagined the Hive mind as the type to send in multiples of anything, building in a sort of redundancy into it's own swarms...

So for myself I think my advice to Stingray in terms of what to bring would be: Cut back on the gaunts slightly. 80 should be enough to do almost any job. Try to work in some redundant parts to the list. Example, take 2 sniper fexes instead of 1 and 1 dakkafex. Take more than 1 lictor (I suggest 3 or 0). If using zoanthropes, field 2-3 and use them for warp blast primarily.

I run my orks on a similar principle, and the only things that I use that don't have a redundant counterpart are either because I don't need it, or I can't afford it...or the mob is being used as a distraction (single mob of 10-15 lootaz = Distraction, 1 mob of 5 Meganobs in a trukk with a megaboss = expensive, 1 Bigmek with a KFF = No more needed, also no more HQs)

ReveredChaplainDrake
11-09-2008, 06:14
I've posted this before, and I'm actually under the opinion that 5th ed saved horde Tyranids instead of killing them.

The 4th ed meta of 'Stealers and Dakka/Gunfexes was weak because, for their points, Genestealers get hosed fairly badly in attrition wars. With the super-monsters of unkillyness unable to take the objective in 5th, Tyranid players had to turn to a unit that could hold objectives to the end, and that weren't Rippers. The answer: Gaunts! (Though I do wish that Hormagaunts were a little less pants than they are now. Them and Rippers have no place in a Tyranid list hoping to be any kind of competitive.) Even if Carnifexes of invincibleness can't hold objectives anymore, the fact that every Gaunt holds an objective is incredible.

This adds another effect to the Tyranid horde. With Gaunts being the chief unit depended on to take an objective, it used to be the case that the opponent would target all the Synapse and by the end the Gaunts would either be huddled around a crippled Synapse net, or the opponent would have blasted apart all the Synapse and the Gaunts would've split. Many players figured out rather quickly that shooting Gaunts was a waste, and as a result an opponent with a sense of target control could decimate Tyranid armies by knocking out all the killy stuff, sure that the Gaunts would do nothing. But now that Gaunts score to the last, there is an element that Gaunts can actually be considered important. Though any real Tyranid player knows that Gaunts are expendable, the opponent will unload at the Gaunts to try and limit our scoring units, only to leave one Fearless Gaunt left alive to scuttle for that Objective and count as Scoring. The opponent then gets buried in the killy weight of the actual damage-dealers in the army, while the Gaunts do what they do best: die too slow for the opponent's tastes.

To the No Retreat change, I think it's actually a better thing for gameplay in general. Maybe not the best for Tyranids mind you, but it's more fair. Back in 4th ed (speaking as one of those non-conformists who still ran 100 Gaunts), if you kept Gaunts in Synapse range, you would never take casualties for losing a fight because it was based on outnumbering. Anybody who could outnumber your Gaunts probably wouldn't do heavy enough casualties to win anyway, and if they did the most you could expect to lose was three Gaunts. There were also limited killzones and no counterassault moves to reduce Gaunt casualties even further. Combat Resolution casualties meant nothing to a properly-built horde list, and players who knew their way around a horde were aware of and abused this limitation. (In fact, I became veritably famous for it in my gaming circle.) However, most Tyranid players opted for Genestealer spam, so this is a mostly-unknown balance problem with horde Tyranids that many players have never encountered.

As for taking out tanks, Tyranids are in no bad shape there. So glances don't do anything serious to tanks. Big deal. So the Venom Cannon isn't as good anymore. I already pulled the Venom Cannon off my Venomfex and turned it into a modified Shovel-Tusker. For 185 pts, my Fex with anywhere from 4-9 Str9 attacks on the charge could flip a Monolith like a flapjack. And then there's vehicles who don't have AV14 in the rear. Usually something in the AV10 ballpark. Those are things that Genestealers can shred. To be fair, Tanks were way too easy to pop in 5th edition, to the point where a Carnifex with 2 attacks at WS3 and Str9 could and often did do the trick. What's that? Now Tyranid players actually have to build their Carnifexes for combat if we want them to flip tanks over? Gasp. Fightyfexes have always been more fun anyway.

And this is all excluding the fact that Land Raiders kill about 5 Gaunts a turn if they hit and wound every time. Land Raiders will never kill enough to make their points back. In fact, the greatest damage a Land Raider can cause to Gaunts is to drive up, get surrounded, and then explode. Crusaders come closer to doing actual damage, but they have to get within 12" to make their Hurricane Bolters rapid fire, and this is when the Gaunts pour forward, clog access hatches, and the Carnifex blows the Land Raider open, leaving the cargo cut down. The Redeemer is probably the nastiest, but it has the double disadvantage of costing the most and needing to be the closest. Any Land Raider that gets close enough to use a Flamestorm Cannon will be on the reciprocating end of the nearest Carnifex in a single turn. And it's not like we're MEQs. What do Gaunts care of Str6/AP3 flamers? Really, not much. Genestealers may get a bit steamed (and Rippers, whoo boy...) but the bottom line is that if you can't kill the full Gaunt unit or make them run, and believe me you won't, shooting will not shift their claim to an objective.

Finally, to the Marine codex. I've played against a lot of Marine players and have noticed something disturbingly common about "successful" lists in 4th. They spam Tactical Squads, take only one Ld10 Commander, maybe Terminators, and ignore all specialists like the plague. These get to be ludicrously powerful in 5th. When only Troops are scoring and your entire army includes maybe one or two units that aren't Troops, you gain a large advantage over other armies that actually need specialists to win. However, what 5th edition's Marines offer are veterans, vehicles, and characters that are actually worth taking. Giving Marines an actual incentive to take likely-overpriced non-scoring units that die like Tactical Marines all the same? Why should I mind that?

Bring them on, I say. We'll adapt. It's what bugs do.

nomadimp
11-09-2008, 07:19
That was an excellent post Rev.

AngryAngel
11-09-2008, 07:34
It is an excellent post. I just hope it isn't totally attacked with but 2 sentences of how swarm nids are complete crap and thats that.

Really responding in this post doesn't really matter. He just wants people to agree with him, because obviously if ya disagree your wrong. He's already made his mind up he's screwed and there is nothing you can do about it.

That said, I don't think any army is totally screwed by the changes. I love this new edition of warhammer and think it adds a breath of fresh air.

Adra
11-09-2008, 11:41
1 Flyrant
1 Walking Tyrant
100 Gaunts
20 Genestealers
1 Dakkafex
1 Sniperfex
1 Lictor
Winged Warriors
Shooty Warriors


Not a very fluffy list if you ask me. Just looks like you have taken a few random bits and bobs from the codex. hardly a swarm army is it?

I like how the OP is so determined to hate on his own list. What do you want people to say? Your right? Ok its a rubbish list....buy a new army and shush.

If its a fluff list (and i dont think it is) then your concern should be the fluff, not winning. thats what most fluff players do because fluff armies ignore advantages in favour or fluff. You cant wine that you cant beat a very specific sm list with you fluff list. this would be different if it was a power list but you say its not so you have a choice. stick to the fluff and learn to lose better, or adapt, power up and win more.

Kank
11-09-2008, 13:24
Not a very fluffy list if you ask me. Just looks like you have taken a few random bits and bobs from the codex. hardly a swarm army is it?

I like how the OP is so determined to hate on his own list. What do you want people to say? Your right? Ok its a rubbish list....buy a new army and shush.

If its a fluff list (and i dont think it is) then your concern should be the fluff, not winning. thats what most fluff players do because fluff armies ignore advantages in favour or fluff. You cant wine that you cant beat a very specific sm list with you fluff list. this would be different if it was a power list but you say its not so you have a choice. stick to the fluff and learn to lose better, or adapt, power up and win more.


I'll say it again. There is no such thing as a non-fluffy 'Nid list. Well, ok.. if you make a list where your Stealers stop the assault and chat about their feelings.. that's not very fluffy. :eek:

Lord Raneus
11-09-2008, 13:31
Also, Land Raiders should be extremely tough to kill. It's a hugely expensive tank, it shouldn't roll over and die just because it gives you a hard time. That's the whole point, and the reason why it takes up a sixth of the points value of a 1500 point army.

It wasn't good enough last edition, now that it's finally gotten a bit more survivable you complain? Baaaawww. I'll say it again, the Marine list you have given as "screwing" your all-comers Nids is a very specific counter list that I wouldn't dream of using in a general game; take a pair of Land Raiders with Terminators and Dreadnoughts in 1500 against Tau, for example, and you might as well concede the game before playing.

Panophobia
11-09-2008, 13:50
Wow. I mostly agree with the OP.... People are not thinking well here idk i could be wrong but every 5th game i have played with nids has ended bad.... not even close i've been mostly destroyed. the biggest thing i have noticed pushing this is the increase in amount of troops.. meaning more rapid firing bolter weapons, or with termies, storm bolters and other basic troop weapons from other armies.

with tanks they had a problem with them before, now its only worse...

i could go on with the disadvantages they had and have gotten from 5th but i don't think many people here care or will listen...

so basically 5th has made nids worse in many aspects. were they gain a minor advantage in running and rear armour in combat. i've found these to not be very grand at all.

doesn't mean i won't be playing them, just losing interest very quickly... guess i'll have to dust of my marines from 3rd ed

GodofWarTx
11-09-2008, 14:13
Heh. 5th edition helped out nids too, but a lot of nid players like to overlook the new targeting rules in shooting and in CC. Shoot a Las/plas squad now with a dakkafex and cause enough wounds, those special troopers have got to be singled out to roll their saves.

Same goes for powerfist marine sargeants, who not only got NERFED in 5th edition powerfist rules, but who can also die to wound allocation now, rather than always being the last man alive. This helps keeps your nid gribblies alive a lot longer.Nid units, with the exception of warriors, dont have any problems with wound allocation on special models in a squad.

Carnifexi (plural?) can now run, which helps CC fex's get into combat much faster, which should help out as well in facing down the land raiders, which for the most part, brought smiles to opponents faces when they see a marine start plopping down land raiders, knowing they just got an easy 250+ victory points. Oh noes! An army struggles to take down the TOUGHEST TANK in the game, big suprise =) .

Nid's also can screen much more of their units. Lead the charge with a bunch of spinegaunts, with a bunch of genestealers or beefed up hormagaunts ready to leap forward after the front line gets murdered (like it should). If they shoot beyond the front line, 4+ cover saves for all. That wouldnt have happened in 4th edition. Against bolter fire, that saves HALF of all casualties you would have taken outright. This to me makes stealers and beefed up gaunts more viable when lead by a bunch of chumps, like a "fluffy" nid army.

With the new scout and outflanking rules, scuttling works out nicely too to get the drop on marine units before they can react and fire away as well.

If all else fails, do what i do : have a trygon burst out amid the firing lines and start playing "count the scything talons, suckahs!"

Lord Raneus
11-09-2008, 14:27
Yeah, Powerfists got a nerf, and will get more expensive too, so your MCs will be able to plow through Marine squads much easier.

itcamefromthedeep
11-09-2008, 14:27
I played with a swarm list the other day:

walking cc Tyrant with 3 Guard (the only big guy)
3 broods of 3 shooty Warriors
2 broods of 24 Termagants
1 brood of 24 devourer Gaunts
2 broods of 16 Hormagaunts
1 brood of 10 Ripper bases with leaping and carapaces

The army is not competitive at all, but it did pull off a win (Sieze Ground says it all). The problem the list has with tanks is obvious and extreme. In order to counter that, I plan to give the Hormagaunts toxin sacs so that they can glance the rear armor of most vehicles, allowing them to probably stop the tank from shooting. They would still do nothing to Monoliths or Land Raiders, but screw it, I don't care.

The Rippers were the dark horse of the game. It turns out that 40 Attacks can eat Dire Avenger squads with frightening rapidity. Even the Autarch in there fell on the third round of combat. Having a rediculously low profile turns out to be a godsend for them, as you can put them behind a hedge and leave them simply out of LOS.

For the record, 'Nids are not screwed. I've done spectacularly well with them since 5th started.

grickherder
11-09-2008, 17:23
The only nid horde defeats I've seen so far are where the person put their synapse out in the open. No 4+ from cover, or from having to shoot through a line of gaunts. Just out in the open to die. When people guard their synapse well and present too many targets to prioritize for the opponent, they're quite good under 5th edition.

Cartographer
11-09-2008, 20:58
After a couple of games, the only problem I've had with a Swarm list is the Fearless/no-retreat rule. Though not in and of itself, on it's own it works fine and I can appreciate what it adds to the game. The problem occurs when it combines with multiple assaults.
True Story:

32-strong (at the time 28-strong) Gaunt squad gets assaulted, 10 die vs 1 wound caused (big surprise...Marines...), they were in synapse range so a further 6 keeled over from no-retreat. No problem so far, good save rolls I though.
I moved my (already don 2 wounds from shooting) Carnifex in to support the gaunts in the assault and truly learned how broken the 5th edition assault rules are.
The marines promptly killed 8 more gaunts and took no casualties in return, the Carnifex (who hadn't been targeted by any attacks at this point) under-performed and only killed 3 Marines.
The 4 remaining Gaunts then failed their saves and the unit was wiped out.
So was the Carnifex, who hadn't been targeted by any attacks in the assault! Because of no-retreat he suffered 5 wounds and failed 2 saves, enough to drop him!

Sending in a Fearless MC to support a gaunt unit is suicide, as your opponent can quite legitimately target the weaker unit and pour the wounds onto the stronger one as a result. In the above example would he have caused 8 wounds if he'd targeted all his available attacks against the 'fex? I doubt he'd have gotten 2 honestly, but he didn't need to even look at my 'fex to kill it.

(Not really a rant at the marines, I expected them to kill the gaunts, it would have been nice for the 'fex to not die as a direct result of dead gaunts, and only dead gaunts, though...)

Lungboy
11-09-2008, 23:11
There seems to be very little point moaning about how 5th has ruined Nids (personally i am yet to lose in 5th with mine) until we get a 5th 'Dex. If we still have the same problems then, then by all means whine your hearts out, but complaining about the No Retreat! rules which affect all older 'Dex armies in exactly the same way just seems utterly daft.

samiens
12-09-2008, 10:36
The fearless thing isn't broken- its just a balanced advantage rather than a trump card. It just means you need to put in enough support to win the combat, rather than being able to eternally tarpit units.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-09-2008, 11:30
- Gaunts are supposed to screen other units AND hold objectives AND swamp the enemy. All at the same time. And in 5th they suck at all these three tasks taken alone. So WTF?!?


I disagree. They definitively are a better screen. A guaranteed 4+ save is much more helpful than a TPT. They are better at scoring since even the last measly gaunt can hold an objective. By going to ground, this shouldn't be a real problem. And in assaults they might lose a few more models than before but that is mitigated by having many of them.

The problem is not so much that you play a 'fluffy' list, the problem is that you don't take the right tools to deal with such eventualities as Land Raiders and call anything remotely effective unfluffy. Why? Are Zoeys really unfluffy? Are two Fexes (same price as one LR)? With run, they stand a pretty good chance to kill that Raider, or three while shrugging of AI fire.

With your list you had the exact same problem in the past already. Even 4th rending wasn't very good at killing AV 14, S 4 stood little chance against anything armoured, and three Hellhounds were made to kill hordes.



- we will see a lot of Land Raider armies, because they simply are very good for points denial and objective contesting now.


We will see many more Razorback armies. 40 points for tl-HB, searchlight and smoke?

spagunk
12-09-2008, 14:46
About the fearless,

The guy I played against said that synapse isnt fearless but rather pass all morale checks. Fearless are the only ones subject to the "No Retreat" rule. Did my opponent get something wrong?

Captain Micha
12-09-2008, 14:51
No. It would work like this:
Design a codex, that works with a playstyle, that does not contradict established fluff. Or at least don't change the rules afterwards, so that the fluffy playstyle is useless.
This is impossible? I don't think so. It works like this:
- leave rending for Nids as it was before
- no "No Retreat" wounds for Synapse
See? It's that easy. Hey, that was 4th edition. And fluffy lists worked there (I don't say they were better than the horrible Nidzilla lists, but at least they WORKED). Strange, isn't it...?

Pretty much things like this. I don't believe you should have a difference between a Fluff list that -fits the codex fluff- be vastly inferior to a tournament list.. actually I feel the lists -should- be one in the same. You could also design it so that the most fluff accurate to Gw fluff (not your's) units synergize the best together and not so well with others.

Madfool2
12-09-2008, 14:53
About the fearless,

The guy I played against said that synapse isnt fearless but rather pass all morale checks. Fearless are the only ones subject to the "No Retreat" rule. Did my opponent get something wrong?

Yeah I've had that said to me too, I generally went with it but I'm unsure if that was the right way to go.

IJW
12-09-2008, 14:54
Did my opponent get something wrong?
Yep. If you look at No Retreat, it's the automatic passing of the Morale test that triggers it, no being Fearless.

Lungboy
12-09-2008, 15:11
Fearless is simply mentioned, along with other abilities, as a possible reason for having to take the No Retreat! wounds.

Ranger S2H
12-09-2008, 15:20
maybe you should try to take on some fluffy SM armies?
I don't think taking siege dreadz against nidz is fluffy as I 've never seen them on defence,
and you'd probably get take on 1 landraider max.

Derling
12-09-2008, 15:50
I am usinig exactly this kind of list.

1 Flyrant
1 Walking Tyrant
100 Gaunts
20 Genestealers
1 Dakkafex
1 Sniperfex
1 Lictor
Winged Warriors
Shooty Warriors



I actually find a list similar to that to be a pretty competant list in general. Might I also suggest that you consider dropping the number of gaunts so that you can also make them "without number" thus giving you an unlimited number of scoring units no matter how many those marines kill of yours.

I think the standard 5th ed marine list you spoke uf will not be all that common around the globe because it's a lot of points that ussualy doesn't count as scoring(not counting the sternguard, I see 900 pts in what you pointed out). This means the rest of the army will have to focus on scoring units. all of which can be fodder for any unit in your Nid army. If those Flamer Land raiders get close enough to flame your gaunts, hit it with a tyrant of Fex in melee.

It might be a possibility that YOU might be facing such an army from your local chums, depending on their gameyness and the psychological fear you provide your opponent by stressing over these marine units. But I think over all, it will not be as bad as you suggest. Good luck!

IJW
12-09-2008, 16:15
Might I also suggest that you consider dropping the number of gaunts so that you can also make them "without number" thus giving you an unlimited number of scoring units no matter how many those marines kill of yours.
Cue Stingray_tm's standard rant about Kill Points... ;)

Madfool2
12-09-2008, 17:00
Cue Stingray_tm's standard rant about Kill Points... ;)

He's not been here, so he might not be on stage until later tonight! Popcorn on the left, drinks on the right, and a free flame suit is with Jake over at the ticket office.

Vepr
12-09-2008, 18:54
I don't have much problem with how the current codex is set up other than there needs to be a few cost reductions with select units. Other than that it still works alright even with 5th edition. It has to either way because it is going to be a long time before we see an update. :p

General Squeek Squeek
12-09-2008, 19:39
This might be a little off topic, but I wonder exactly what fluff stingray's been reading when he builds his list. If its from any of the marine books that I've read then there's his problem to start with. Almost every book I've read talks about marines wasting every single little bug with ease. Heck even warriors were equivalent on fighting terms to marines in these books. So if that's where your getting your fluff your pretty screwed to begin with as marines always win these battles so his losses reflect the fluff he started with.

The Song of Spears
12-09-2008, 20:40
I dunno about 5th killing fluffy nids. My gaunts can move to a objective and "go to ground" giving them a 3+ cover save, 2+ if they are able to skulk. If anyone gets near to flame or assault they have the rest of the nids army right nearby to deal with.

Everything can run now, so broodlords are no longer so slow, neither are CC fex's.

My gaunts give my gaunts behind them 4+ cover saves, same for the warriors behind them. Wow! no need for extended carapace any more on them!

Sure rending got toned down, but other than a landraider or a Mono, every other tank dies faster due to assaults always hitting rear armour = dead lemun russes.

Feeder tendrils give re-rolls to hit, which is gross when added to rending. And 4 warriors with death spitters are shooting 4 str 5 blasts every round that either wont scatter or scatter not very far = lots of dead baddies with the way the new blast rules work.

No i think nids are doing just fine, IMHO.