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Vedar
09-09-2008, 22:27
As most people already know the Assualt on Black Reach set is one hell of deal. I almost think GW is shooting themself in the foot on this one.

The Dread and Termies normally go for $40 and $50 respectivly.
Black Reach is only $60

At this point you have already saved $30 and everything else in the box is gravy. Marines, Commander, anything ork, rulebook, dice, templates, ect.

While retail sellers are not going to part out the box that is not going to stop ebay seller that are going to try to make money off this very simple buy low and sell higher concept.

It has already started on Ebay. 5 man termi squad $15, Dreads $15 other models and sqauds $5-20.

Pretty good prices and it has barely started.

Now I'm not saying this is bad as Space Marine Players bulk up cheap for these and anyone that wanted to try orks are about to get a hell of a good deal when they are dumped on ebay wholesale.

So pretty much GW is making those people tearing apart those boxes some nice $ instead of doing it themselves.

EmperorEternalXIX
09-09-2008, 22:35
I imagine with newer tech and less complex models, mixed in with the ability to design many more items onto each sprue, that production costs are probably a bit lighter for them when it comes to new boxes. If you look at older sprues there is a lot of wasted plastic...a LOT.

Besides...it's the starter set. I'm sure they are more interested in it circulating then it being a huge seller. This is laying groundwork, is all. As an added bonus many people buy it even though we haven't the slightest need for it just because of what a steal it is.

All that aside, if you want the truly killer and very pose-compliant models the AoBR ones won't do it for you. I hate the captain and the dread, and all the termies look huddled somewhat compared to their meaner-looking boxed set brothers.

Fact is if someone bought that box to sell the pieces, GW already made their money on it because someone with no intention of using it still paid his 60 bucks for it. That is 60 bucks they wouldn't have gotten if the set didn't include so many models...and for what its worth, it probably would have cost them a comparable amount of money to make X amount of sprues with a buttload of model pieces on them then to manufacture the same number of sprues with less pieces on them (of course this is just a guess, but hey...seems to make sense. Other than the volume of plastic, but I imagine the cost would be more to cut additional sprues then to just add more pieces to the existing ones).

Asharoth
09-09-2008, 22:35
Other people are surely making money by tearing apart those box sets, but i think in the long run GW is hoping to get new people in the game by selling these starter sets at such large discounts. Sure, they may be losing a little cash by selling so cheap, and others are taking advantage, but if they are attracting new players, or luring older players into a new army of orcs or SM with the deal, they should make all that cash back!

In the mean time, I'll take your advice and go ebaying for cheap orcs and SM stuff!

Lord Malorne
09-09-2008, 22:37
GW are still making there money from the box just so you know ;).

HsojVvad
09-09-2008, 22:44
Who cares about other people selling them. I would have never bought Termies, or Dreads, but will get it with this box set.

Who knows, now that I will have them I might be getting them now, for different poses and other toys to put on them, so yeah, cheap now for me, small loss for GW now, Big loss for me later, when I buy the box termies Big gain for GW later.

So it's a win-win for both of us.

thechosenone
09-09-2008, 22:52
Its a good deal but lets not for get we are talking about single pose orks and marines. I bought the box and traded out the marines just to bulk up some of my ork mods. The real reason i got this is for the koptors. Again. Its a nice deal but for anyone that doesn't want and army static poses this is just a little boost. I'd never make an army out of any of these.

Lord Damocles
09-09-2008, 22:54
The Dread and Termies normally go for $40 and $50 respectivly.
Black Reach is only $60
Also bear in mind that the models in the AoBR box arn't actually worth as much as their multi-part cousins.

A normal Dread might be $40, but the AoBR version lacks weapon/upgrade options, accessories, the ability to be posed etc.
I'd imagine it's far cheaper for GW to produce an AoBR Dread (which is what? half a dozen parts?) than it is for them to produce a 'proper' Dread which comes on multiple sprues and has to be packaged seperately with transfers, instructions etc.

Culven
09-09-2008, 22:54
I agree. I bought two AoBR boxes. Now I need a Dreadnought for the additional arms, Terminators for the extra weapons (Heavy 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers :evilgrin:), Orky goodness to make an army, etc.. It is a great deal, and this is why my local store sold out in a day, but it will lead to other sales for GW. AoBR is a gateway model set, and now I need a fix.

ThousandPlateaus
09-09-2008, 22:55
Hmm, I'm not sure; I think it may have an opposite effect: many people I know, and game with, are clamouring for the mini-rulebook. Now this will sell on it's own for a huge amount of money (relative to the starter set) - I think one on ebay recently went for about 20, which is half the value of the entire box set...

Now, whilst some people are lazy/rich enough to simply pay those high prices for a very attractive item (easy to carry, easy to reference, etc), most will simply look at the demanded price of the mini-rulebook and think, 'well, for an extra 20, I can get the whole box', meaning that more players will shell out for the box-set than you might think. Sure, there may be an influx of very cheap marines and orks to be snapped up in the short term, but I think GW will definitely shift a lot of copies of Black Reach.

I mean, even I tried to find someone to go 'halves' with on the set, but can find no-one in my club as everyone wants the mini-book as companion to the BRB.

Dooks Dizzo
09-09-2008, 23:02
I know a bunch of people who are buying 2 to 4 of the Black Reach boxes.

And what doesn't it come with? All the shiney new stuff in the new codex that is being released just after.

And how many old school players are starting Orks now that wouldn't have otherwise? Plenty I thinks.

Vault-Dweller
09-09-2008, 23:04
Making ppl buy more stuff than they need is good marketing.

Rhamag
09-09-2008, 23:10
Just did a little Ebay research. One seller has broken down a box into seperate lots, and the current total is 57. If he's managed to get it at trade price for say 30 or less, he's nearly doubled his money, and there's still a day left on the auction. Not bad money while the market's still there.

In the end though, I think it'll bring in more new players, old and young, and GW will see benefits in the longer-term.

sorienor
09-09-2008, 23:32
I'm not sure if we'll ever see actual sales numbers from GW, but the fact that people have been talking about AoBR for months, that a lot of places have sold out already, and the 300+ auctions on ebay ...most with bidders... tells me that AoBR is a runaway success. Maybe not for it's intended purpose (get new ppl in the game) but just in pure sales numbers.

I think it is a good message to GW that we need value sometimes, not options; less complex models that get the job done at a decent price.

the1stpip
10-09-2008, 00:16
The thing is, with so many people chucking bits on ebay, the price is going to come down. People won't buy a 'buy it now' model if they can get an auction price for less, so the buy it now will come down in price.

In a few weeks, these people who buy boxed sets just to split won't make any money out of it.

Oh, and we still have the benefit of lots of models. If for no other reason, the boxed set will sell for the Deff koptas, as they won't be available anywhere else.

The_Outsider
10-09-2008, 00:25
Fun fact: a proper dreads attaching "pegs" on the arms are a different size to the AoBR dread's.

Black reach works like Ronseal, it doesn't coem with all the cool gear that the proper boxsets do, but it isn't aimed at players who already have an army so the basic, easy to build single pose models do the job perfectly.

Their detail is staggering, but hey, LoTR had to be good for something.

maelstrom66669
10-09-2008, 01:51
im sure like other people have said, the lack of customization on the models makes them cheaper, and im sure if you could see the bottom line on it they are profiting off of each of the black reach sets, maybe not so much as they are off other models, but it seems a great deal to me, im making my marines into chaos, so for $10 more than a box of terminators, i get 5 terminators, a squad of marines, a dread, and a rulebook, not to mention the orcs that i can cut up and use for bits, or trade to someone for some more models, coupled with the fact that it will probably bring new people to 40k, thats good in alot of ways :D

Crablezworth
10-09-2008, 02:37
I just got mine today and all I can say is I'm still in value shock.

PondaNagura
10-09-2008, 03:11
i thinkl the AoBR is the single most sucess Gw has had in a decade. it is a marvel not only in 'cheap' injection molded models, that still retain some fine level fo details, but also my hats off to the guys who mapped all the sprues to be efficient in placement and assemblies of the models. also the marketing strategy they used was great. it creates a wonderful opportunity for a cheap/quick way for newer players, while placating the established gamers desires to bolster their ranks. GW is definitely going to make up the profits for this. although they kind of already do by adjusting their costs for existing minis. the new set is probably closer to what they should be charging anyways.
i just wish there were some shootaz in the the slugga boys.

Chem-Dog
10-09-2008, 03:39
So pretty much GW is making those people tearing apart those boxes some nice $ instead of doing it themselves.

Not really, most people looking for these split units will be aware of their intrinsic value (or lack thereof) I honestly doubt people will be bidding anywhere near what the full priced alternative would cost.



I hate the captain and the dread, and all the termies look huddled somewhat compared to their meaner-looking boxed set brothers.


I've stood the AoBR termis together with the multiart plastics, you really can't tell the difference.


Sure, they may be losing a little cash by selling so cheap
Why do people keep saying this? Before the big shakedown down GW were selling their plastics to staff BY WEIGHT and still making a profit.


Again. Its a nice deal but for anyone that doesn't want and army static poses this is just a little boost. I'd never make an army out of any of these.

The Orks really aren't single pose, practically every one is different, in fact they look more varies than the ones I made from the regular Boyz multipart kit.


A normal Dread might be $40, but the AoBR version lacks weapon/upgrade options, accessories, the ability to be posed etc.

You have a point, although the AoBR Dread comes with a weapon option not available in the regular kit.


Hmm, I'm not sure; I think it may have an opposite effect: many people I know, and game with, are clamouring for the mini-rulebook.


True here, the Mini's were just a sweetner as far as I was concerned.



And how many old school players are starting Orks now that wouldn't have otherwise? Plenty I thinks.

Me, for starters, it'll only ever be a side project BUT it'll be handy when making up the numbers for Apoc games.



Oh, and we still have the benefit of lots of models. If for no other reason, the boxed set will sell for the Deff koptas, as they won't be available anywhere else.

Aren't they slated for the 2nd wave of Ork releases in january? I can't imagine that the stand alone kit won't be more versatile than the ones in the box (separate pilot, Buzzsaw option)



i just wish there were some shootaz in the the slugga boys.

Same here actually, but ho-hum....


I'm not sure what the qustion is here...

I don't think GW are shooting themselves anywhere with this kit, each of the forces only supplies about 500 points of models meaning, at the very least, any player wishing to play regularly will have to buy another 500-1000 points of troops. Especially as the AoBR set only includes a single Marine troops choice, you can technically get away with a viable force for Orks, but show me a Warboss that wants to field boyz in mobs of 10.

boreas
10-09-2008, 04:07
Definitely not shooting themselves in the foot. Combine Black Reach and the sweet Orks and now SMs codexes and you get lots of new armies. Notice I didn't write new players! Although new players might very well try WH40k because of this, l think a lot of bread and butter will come from vets like me. I've played WH, DH (with a bit of IG) and Necrons. Now, I've ordered 2 AoBR, a SM battleforce (the BF is already received, assembled an painted!). I plan to get more Assault squads, a few drop pods, a few HQs. Next thing you'll know, I'll have over 3000pts of Space Marines...

Just look at how many players are starting SM and Ork, even just as side projects right now...

Phil

starlight
10-09-2008, 04:10
I mean, even I tried to find someone to go 'halves' with on the set, but can find no-one in my club as everyone wants the mini-book as companion to the BRB.

Which is the truly great deal, buy two AoBR and split, each gamer gets an army *and* one set of all the game stuff (rulebook and such). :)

When I get my two (or three!:D) AoBRs, I'll likely post the *extras* on the Trading Forum...in a month or so...:p

The Orange
10-09-2008, 05:44
So pretty much GW is making those people tearing apart those boxes some nice $ instead of doing it themselves.

It's always the same story with these kind of releases. It happened with the BfM set as well as well as those huge limited army boxes GW always releases with the release of a new codex. In the end GW win I think. Because people can break up the sets and sell what they don't need more people are prompted to make the initial purchase of the big box in the first place.

If ebay did not exist, and the mini rulebook was only available through buying the starter set yourself, trust me, far less would have been sold, and far more gamers would be grumpily complaining about why they have to spend $60 to get a mini rule book. Which I must admit, should be a standard for gamers, not the arm breaking hard back. As much as I love having a large hardback version of the rules, it just doesn't compare to the mini when it comes to ease of use and transport.

Iron Father
10-09-2008, 07:59
If ebay did not exist, and the mini rulebook was only available through buying the starter set yourself, trust me, far less would have been sold, and far more gamers would be grumpily complaining about why they have to spend $60 to get a mini rule book. Which I must admit, should be a standard for gamers, not the arm breaking hard back. As much as I love having a large hardback version of the rules, it just doesn't compare to the mini when it comes to ease of use and transport.


I have to disagree, I dont know a single person in my store who actually bought a AoBR just for the rule book..... there were tons to be had at our stores trading day, hell there are still people trying to get rid of their extra books.

Most people I witnessed bought the sets for the awsome models, hell, by buying 2 AoBR sets and trading here and there, I have increased my Ork army by 90+ boyz, 18 Coptas, 6 Warbosses, and a shed load of Nobz. All for $120.

BrianC
10-09-2008, 08:02
Its worth waiting for supply to outstrip demand with the Black Reach minis on ebay. I did just that with the last starter set and brought eight or more 'nids a time from the starter set at under 3 a throw. I can field six full squads of 'gaunts or six full squads of 'stealers for not much over 100, about the same price as just 'stealers would have cost new.

Granted the Marines in the new box are hardly dynamic but then the full priced tactical box isn't really either, there are only so many two handed bolter poses you can do without chopping.

Where I think they have gone wrong is that if you have built up a reasonable bits box over the years you will have lots of accessories and weapons (heck I only really need the legs) that you can add to the Black Reach minis. I'm planning on adding in heavy weapons to my termies and converting the tactical to Sternguard vets. Doing that saves me 10 before I look at selling the rule book, templates and the added value of the 'naught, orks and so on.

rev
10-09-2008, 08:46
I'm sure they are more interested in it circulating then it being a huge seller. This is laying groundwork, is all.

agreed.

There has been a lot of critiscism of the GW business model over recent years, and when they finally make a decision to build for the future (speculate to accumulate anyone?) they get criticised for that too!

:rolleyes:

trooper_alasdair
10-09-2008, 09:17
I haven't been able to pick up a AoBR box yet and as such dont know how big or what the dementions are on the dreadnought. So I must ask you fine fellows, how easy is it to swap the AoBR arms on the dread for say, the forge-world variants?

farnham
10-09-2008, 09:47
I'd Imagine the FW dread parts would fit without issue to the normal dread but the arm mounts on the AoBR dreads are smaller, though there isn't any notice able size difference between the two when they are next to each other, other than the hight from the bases.

grickherder
10-09-2008, 09:47
The arms are completely compatible with the exisitng plastic kit.

Odd_Motorbike_Guy
10-09-2008, 10:28
Making ppl buy more stuff than they need is good marketing.

Letting not Making

But finally, the first person to make proper business sense when they speak about Games Workshop.

geraint
10-09-2008, 12:52
gw arent making money on these boxes at the moment because plastic prices are goin up .
i think the prices for this box is goin up at the end of september

geraint
10-09-2008, 12:53
the normal dread arms do not fit , but it isnt hard so make the pins smaller or the holes larger , or just get rid of the pins altogether .

tealzooka
10-09-2008, 12:58
It is the crack sales tactic. Get them in cheap. Once you have them hooked the prices get higher.

Lord Malorne
10-09-2008, 13:16
gw arent making money on these boxes at the moment because plastic prices are goin up .
i think the prices for this box is goin up at the end of september

It was announced that metals, paints, and books are being increased, not plastics.

Templar Ben
10-09-2008, 14:54
also the marketing strategy they used was great. it creates a wonderful opportunity for a cheap/quick way for newer players, while placating the established gamers desires to bolster their ranks. GW is definitely going to make up the profits for this. although they kind of already do by adjusting their costs for existing minis. the new set is probably closer to what they should be charging anyways.

What was the marketing strategy exactly as you see it?

I really don't see this as being for entering players. It is great for established players but even with so much being available it is still a lot of money to put out. To me it is a lot like the Battleforce Boxes. Those boxes are great when you want to bulk up an army but they are not a way to put some money down and have a legal army (in all cases, some can be). I know GW is concerned about cannibalizing sales but they should consider having a true entry box for each army that is balanced against every other entry box.

GW won't release the details of this separately so we don't know if going to a lower margin high volume model will work well but I agree with you with their fixed overhead it makes a lot more sense.


Definitely not shooting themselves in the foot. Combine Black Reach and the sweet Orks and now SMs codexes and you get lots of new armies. Notice I didn't write new players! Although new players might very well try WH40k because of this, l think a lot of bread and butter will come from vets like me. I've played WH, DH (with a bit of IG) and Necrons. Now, I've ordered 2 AoBR, a SM battleforce (the BF is already received, assembled an painted!). I plan to get more Assault squads, a few drop pods, a few HQs. Next thing you'll know, I'll have over 3000pts of Space Marines...

Just look at how many players are starting SM and Ork, even just as side projects right now...

Phil

I agree. The number one market for this is existing GW customers and not new entrants.


agreed.

There has been a lot of critiscism of the GW business model over recent years, and when they finally make a decision to build for the future (speculate to accumulate anyone?) they get criticised for that too!

:rolleyes:

Why are you of the impression that this is going to draw in new players?


gw arent making money on these boxes at the moment because plastic prices are goin up .
i think the prices for this box is goin up at the end of september

The cost of plastic is the lowest cost item. I would not be surprised if the cost of the box (printed) is more than the raw cost of the plastic. That being said I have heard the box will be going up to $75. Good thing GW isn't trying to encourage new players.

imperial_scholar
10-09-2008, 15:06
Has anyone picked up the box set who's posted?
I picked one up. The plastic material itself is not the nice soft plastic we're use to. Its of lesser quality. Its harder to trim the flash lines (the few that are there) and its that really smooth type of plastic that is a right pain in the ass to coat if your primer is a little flaky.

And honestly, I'm not to impressed with the posing options. Some arms aren't 100% compatible with some bodies and some arms force you to pose a certain way. For those of us who enjoy posing and modeling... this isn't the normal high quality item we expect out of GW.

Templar Ben
10-09-2008, 17:17
Has anyone picked up the box set who's posted?
I picked one up. The plastic material itself is not the nice soft plastic we're use to. Its of lesser quality. Its harder to trim the flash lines (the few that are there) and its that really smooth type of plastic that is a right pain in the ass to coat if your primer is a little flaky.

And honestly, I'm not to impressed with the posing options. Some arms aren't 100% compatible with some bodies and some arms force you to pose a certain way. For those of us who enjoy posing and modeling... this isn't the normal high quality item we expect out of GW.

I think that is the point. It is not an exercise in being easy to convert but being a fast build.

Argastes
10-09-2008, 17:40
And honestly, I'm not to impressed with the posing options. Some arms aren't 100% compatible with some bodies and some arms force you to pose a certain way. For those of us who enjoy posing and modeling... this isn't the normal high quality item we expect out of GW.

Why did you expect the normal high quality (in terms of pose options) from a product that was never intended to offer that quality, but instead was deliberately designed to sacrifice some of that quality in order to maximize other qualities (high model count, ease of assembly, etc.)? Would you buy a cheap, basic car and then gripe that it doesn't offer the same quality as the same manufacturer's luxury cars? It's not like GW didn't let everyone know, up front, that the AoBR models were going to have less posing options. It's not like they ever claimed that the posing and modeling potential of this set was supposed to match that of their other plastic kits. If you enjoy posing and modeling... don't buy the introductory starter set that everyone knows has limited posing/modeling options, and then criticize it for not having the "normal high quality". Geesh. I would have thought that would be common sense. Not very realistic to expect a trait that the manufacturer didn't promise for a particular product, just because that trait is included in some of their other products. Especially when it was made perfectly clear that the product was not intended to have that trait. I would call that an unreasonable expectation.

Adra
10-09-2008, 17:49
They are fine for an bulking. I prefer converting everything so they aint so good.

boogle
10-09-2008, 17:56
I'm putting the stuff i don't really need up ASAP, and being honest with you guys, i'm even waiving the Postage charge for UK buyers

imperial_scholar - must just have been your set then, the mould lines and tactical markings have come off fine with the files i have

maelstrom66669
10-09-2008, 19:15
the models are a good way to start really converting something , if you dont like the way an arm points, saw it off with a dremel and reposition it, if you mess up oh well, its around $1 a model rather than $5 or $10 so its a great place to start making some real custom models

imperial_scholar
11-09-2008, 04:27
Why did you expect the normal high quality (in terms of pose options) from a product that was never intended to offer that quality, but instead was deliberately designed to sacrifice some of that quality in order to maximize other qualities (high model count, ease of assembly, etc.)?
<snip>
I would call that an unreasonable expectation.
Did I say I expected High Quality?! No, I didn't. I was telling everyone who is confused to think that GW is taking a loss on the product. I was merely stating that the quality isn't the same as what we're use too.

imperial_scholar - must just have been your set then, the mould lines and tactical markings have come off fine with the files i have
I don't doubt it. I find the moulding lines very fine to the point where I usually miss them unless I look really hard.

I'm not complaining. I'd buy another box if I really wanted more orks (I traded on the saturday they came out). I'm sure if I broke out my files to get rid of the flash lines it'd be fine.. but I tend to go crazy with the files and I prefer the knife.

If anyone remembers the 2nd edition Marine Paint Kit starter set, they'll remember a really low quality plastic marine. I'm not comparing this set to that.

Normal Ork box: 9/10
Black Reach: 7/10
That sum it up?

tankworks
12-09-2008, 04:18
Customizing? That is what the knife and saw are for, no matter how many pieces they come in or how complicated or simple they are.

Apocalypse
12-09-2008, 05:56
Has anyone else heard of GW cracking down on people selling this kit peicemeal? Apparently it's against the law to buy something, break it down, and sell the components for profit.... I've seen/heard of a couple instances on eBay already, but i look and there are still plenty of examples... just to much volume to stop. Anyone else heard of this?

Deadboytat2
12-09-2008, 06:29
i bought three and am going to use everything i love this new set.

AllisterCaine
12-09-2008, 07:13
Think of it this way; instead of paying 300$ for something that costs a quarter to make, you are now paying 60$ for something that costs a quarter to make. Theres an alternate perspective for you.

Great set if youre starting out or are using the models...but if youre trying to sell them, good luck. Those things will flood the market faster than you can say "profit".

Shadowfax
12-09-2008, 07:27
The same thing happened with Macragge and GW didn't seem to mind.

I think they realize that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks of the profiteering.

maelstrom66669
12-09-2008, 07:33
There is no law against selling the pieces on ebay, if there were, you couldnt sell any GW stuff on ebay. And check the prices on some of the stuff, last i looked there marine squads were going for -$5, if they are making a profit, its not enough to be worth their time IMO.