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Nan'kar'tyr
10-09-2008, 01:41
What do you think would be a fair price to give Tau Fire Warriors a bs of 4 and to make pulse rifles ap 3?

They are a shooty based army that is supposed to have superior technology as their main strong point. So why do they have the same bs as a Guardsmen? Also you would think that their superior tech would allow them to come up with a way to punch through power armor. I understand that this could be seen as overpowering Fire Warriors, I would be fine with settling for just the increase in bs, even if ap 3 weapons would be a lot of fun.

Also, why do gun drones have a worse bs than normal people. Do we not use computers today to shoot missiles out of the sky, a feat impossible for a normal person to manage? So how come, 40,000 years from now, someone can't come up with a computer that can put a round downrange with more accuracy than an Ork, who is just as likely to shoot at a funny shaped rock as the enemy?

azimaith
10-09-2008, 01:45
What do you think would be a fair price to give Tau Fire Warriors a bs of 4 and to make pulse rifles ap 3?

24-26 pts.



They are a shooty based army that is supposed to have superior technology as their main strong point. So why do they have the same bs as a Guardsmen?

Because they are physically inferior to humans so their technology makes up for them till they're equal.



Also you would think that their superior tech would allow them to come up with a way to punch through power armor. I understand that this could be seen as overpowering Fire Warriors, I would be fine with settling for just the increase in bs, even if ap 3 weapons would be a lot of fun.

Maybe for the tau player. It would make tau too good against 3+ saves and a joke against armies of nids or orks.



Also, why do gun drones have a worse bs than normal people. Do we not use computers today to shoot missiles out of the sky, a feat impossible for a normal person to manage? So how come, 40,000 years from now, someone can't come up with a computer that can put a round downrange with more accuracy than an Ork, who is just as likely to shoot at a funny shaped rock as the enemy?
One, because the gun drone is a relatively simple AI.
Two, because they have the intelligence and targeting information that we give to our guns (because then they hit on a 2+, IE a seeker missile is an AI guided missile)
Three, they're more than twice as accurate as an ork because they're twin-linked

HamerD
10-09-2008, 01:49
I would imagine that the first thing is that tau are a physically inferior race to humans, to almost everyone. They have crappy eyes...and are frail creatures that would get more tired and harrowed by the constant strains of war than even your average man. I would imagine they'd be around BS 2.5, just like catachans would be around Str 3.5

The second point, the Tau aren't really a vengeful, warlike race. They wouldn't target their weapons to be able to destroy one specific threat, rather defend them against every one. Therefore I'd imagine they created their pulse rifles with the hope of pushing big hordes of orks and tyranids back, against whom the ap is sufficient and the hitting power is more than enough, than rather say for example lower the strength of their weapons in order to only be very capable against the space marines. Remember, when each space marine is outnumbered by guard to a factor of about 1 million guard per every space marine, is it really playing the odds to make anti marine weaponry?

Thirdly...Tau are a new race aren't they. I'm not sure if their AI is supposed to be at the level of humanity + 38000 years of technology...or if their AI should necessarily have developed the same way humanity's has. I'd say that gun drones have worse bs because they're all floating around everywhere and constantly trying to stay level and self-right, and this distracts from getting a lock onto the target :).

ps: that other guy got there first and even used the same phrase 'physically inferior xD'

Othiem
10-09-2008, 01:53
AP3 on a baseline troop would be gamebreaking. The cost would have to go up to the point where tau simply could not field enough fire to take on hordes. As for the BS issue, Tau get markerlights which are pretty amazing. I'd much rather be able to put a +1 to BS on a target when I need it then pay for an extra BS to all my fire warriors all the time.

Goruax
10-09-2008, 01:53
Tau are described as having much worse depth perception.
When you're under pressure, being shot at and needing a steady aim, you're not gonna be able to hit a target when you can't tell how far away they are and they're moving at some speed.

That's where their tech brings them to a level. Add in the Markerlight technology and they can increase themselves to levels higher than a Space Marine.

mchmr6677
10-09-2008, 02:25
Am I mistaken or is the pulse rifle the single best mainline firearm in the game. Range 30" Rapid Fire S5 AP4 and you are concerned about the shooter's ballistic skill? Between two squads of fire warriors and a pathfinder squad, Tau can evaporate an entire nine model tyranid warrior brood in one turn. That is what I consider firepower...

Othiem
10-09-2008, 02:29
Am I mistaken or is the pulse rifle the single best mainline firearm in the game. Range 30" Rapid Fire S5 AP4 and you are concerned about the shooter's ballistic skill? Between two squads of fire warriors and a pathfinder squad, Tau can evaporate an entire nine model tyranid warrior brood in one turn. That is what I consider firepower...

It's only AP5, but that doesn't make you wrong. I agree, fire warriors bring the hurt as is.

Xenobane
10-09-2008, 02:33
Am I mistaken or is the pulse rifle the single best mainline firearm in the game. Range 30" Rapid Fire S5 AP4 and you are concerned about the shooter's ballistic skill? Between two squads of fire warriors and a pathfinder squad, Tau can evaporate an entire nine model tyranid warrior brood in one turn. That is what I consider firepower...

Agreed. A basic troop rapid-fire weapon can can kill MEQs on a 3+ is not going to happen. It would be ridiculous.

Dooks Dizzo
10-09-2008, 03:12
No need for a point increase...just give them the guns. Orks would eat them exactly the same as they always do :)

Lord Raneus
10-09-2008, 03:25
Yes, but Space Marines, Eldar, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids (to an extent, MCs would die like flies), Necrons, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters would be murdered. ;)

Essentially, you'd be looking at models as expensive as Thousand Sons.

senorcardgage
10-09-2008, 03:35
The firewarriors as mentioned would easily be 20 points, if not more.

You can't really up their stats for fluff reasons, or else you'd have to also decrease their other stats correspondingly. Are you kidding, fire warriors are as strong as orks?!

sydbridges
10-09-2008, 04:01
Are you kidding, fire warriors are as strong as orks?!

You just blew my mind. I saw your post, and immediately thought, "That can't be right, orks have limbs like hams, they've got to all be S4 and above..." But no. An ork boy is S3... strong as a tau Fire Warrior.

I think that's the real scandal here.

slaanghoul
10-09-2008, 04:35
You just blew my mind. I saw your post, and immediately thought, "That can't be right, orks have limbs like hams, they've got to all be S4 and above..." But no. An ork boy is S3... strong as a tau Fire Warrior.

I think that's the real scandal here.

I agree. Orks should be S4 and decrees their LD and WS or whatever. Even exchange their BS to 1 and Str to 4 would be good. I don't think pt should go up because you need a horde army like for Orks to fit the fluff.

Yeah BS1 and S4. Nob could be S5 and Warboss S6! Green is Mean!

Askari
10-09-2008, 04:44
AP3 on a baseline troop would be gamebreaking.

Welcome to the Thousand Sons helpline, how can I help you?

:p

As to why Fire Warriors shouldn't have BS4.
Well it's their targetting technology in their helmets that make them BS3 to start with, they are awful shots.

S5 is incredibly powerful for a basic troop gun as it is, especially since it has range advantage over all other Rapid Fire guns I know of. It really doesn't need AP3, especially since the Tau already have lots of low-AP firepower.

And for their current price, they ROCK. Don't make them more expensive, I like them as is.

Othiem
10-09-2008, 04:54
Welcome to the Thousand Sons helpline, how can I help you?

:p


True there's them, but they're 23 points each and far tougher than your average fire warrior. Also chaos has the option to drop down to your standard CSM to round out troop choices. I guess "tau breaking" would be more appropriate than game breaking.

MasterDecoy
10-09-2008, 05:13
I may be mistaken but doesn't everybody call the gauss flayer the best basic firearm?

Nan'kar'tyr
10-09-2008, 05:28
I concede the point about the ap 3 weapons, they would be game breaking. I still do not understand the reason for bs 3. Also, where is everyone getting their ideas about the horrible physical attributes of the Tau? I have found no such thing in the Tau codex, the only place I know of with this information is in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and that also says that Tyranids are not that threatening, since they only have blunt claws and are scared of bright lights.

Dooks Dizzo
10-09-2008, 05:29
Yes Master until the Sternguard Bolter came along :)

BS4 Ap3 Fire Warriors is pretty much insane. 30 to 35 points minimum.

Try test playing them sometime and see how many return customers you get.

Do you think Stealth Suits should be BS4 Ap3 as well?

Nan'kar'tyr
10-09-2008, 05:33
Well at least Crisis suits should be bs 4, they have a ton of gear and should be able to shoot better than the average fire warrior.

ihockert
10-09-2008, 05:33
To the OP. yes the Tau are a technologically advanced civilization but its also imprtant to note that they are not the most technologically advanced civilization and that even the Imperium has access to technology that exceeds Tau technology in certain areas (Vortex weaponry for example). The other issue is that if fire warriors were improved like that you would have to give every other technologically advanced race appropriate modifications. Eldar and Necrons for example are the most ancient and advanced races in the galaxy, imagine what kind of stuff you would have to give them to make the fluff appropriate. If tau get AP 3 pulse rifles and BS 4 fire warriors, I would expect Dire Avengers to get 24" range Assault 4 rending shuriken catapults and necrons would get ridiculous guns.

Askari
10-09-2008, 05:36
Yes Master until the Sternguard Bolter came along :)

BS4 Ap3 Fire Warriors is pretty much insane. 30 to 35 points minimum.

Not quite that much. Like myself and Lord Raneus mentioned, these BS4 AP3 Troops exist. With 4+ Invulnerable saves and Slow and Purposeful and a better statline across the board. For just over twice their current cost.

But still, even if they got BS4 and AP3 for 20pts a piece, Fire Warriors would be crummier than they are now anyway. I'd rather have twice the shots myself.


I may be mistaken but doesn't everybody call the gauss flayer the best basic firearm?

That was before Glancing sucked. :p

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-09-2008, 05:40
I agree. Orks should be S4 and decrees their LD and WS or whatever. Even exchange their BS to 1 and Str to 4 would be good. I don't think pt should go up because you need a horde army like for Orks to fit the fluff.

Yeah BS1 and S4. Nob could be S5 and Warboss S6! Green is Mean!


Congratulations, you just ruined the Ork army.

You do realise that Orks are more than a complete mindless CC infantry horde, right?
Being str 4 would in no way compensate for being made BS 1. At the moment Orks have a huge volume of fire to compensate for there rubbish BS 2. Make it BS 1 and you might as well remove all the guns from them as there effect would be to small to bother with. And if that is the game I wanted, I'd have an Orc army instead, they get a lot more fun toys for that type of game.

Besides, with Furious assault, Orks are str 4 on the assault. Yes, they could be str 5 with that change, but it's certainly not a trade I'd care to make. Not unless you at least doubles there initiative, possibly triple it, and somehow I don't think people want Orks with I 6 either. But if I can't shoot anyone before I assault, I need to attack before you do.

Askari
10-09-2008, 05:55
Well at least Crisis suits should be bs 4, they have a ton of gear and should be able to shoot better than the average fire warrior.

Targetting Arrays?
Isn't that exactly what they do?

Firaxin
10-09-2008, 05:58
Tau are technologically advanced. True.

It's also true that Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard, Witch Hunters, Grey Knights, the Deathwatch, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids (debatably), Daemons (debatably) and Orks all have superior technology to the tau.

And those are just the ones with rules! Don't forget the Admech, the Demiurg, etc...

:p

Besides, tau really are frail and have no depth perception etc. That's why they have initiative 2 and stuff.

Dooks Dizzo
10-09-2008, 05:59
Congratulations, you just ruined the Ork army.Here's how I would ruin it: S4, T3, Feel No Pain.

olmsted
10-09-2008, 06:37
that hole in their head may have something to do with their lack of depth perception.

Raxmei
10-09-2008, 06:49
If you read between the lines of Tau game stats and fluff you'll see they're intended to murder IG and struggle against Space Marines (actual results may vary, of course). Giving them Ap3 weapons with appropriate points cost would reverse that. You'd have an army that is only good at killing Marines. Depending on the exact implementation they might even fail at that - see Vespids.

Weed_Bix
10-09-2008, 08:16
I may be mistaken but doesn't everybody call the gauss flayer the best basic firearm?

I think the gauss flayer is no longer so good due to not being able to do much anymore because of the new glancing hit rules, but on topic not ap3 and as mentioned before the markerlights are the thing that makes tau better in BS and as for the gun drones i find it annoying that they are BS 2 but then it makes sense in that they are 'support' units and have twin linked which makes up for the low BS.

Lastly about orks being Strength 3 that has annoyed me so much recently, how in the world is an ork only as strong as a human,tau,eldar and Gaunt but then again they get furious charge (do they?) which kinda makes up for it

Sleazy
10-09-2008, 08:24
comparing tau with a guardsmen isnt the same as a basic human.

A guardsman is a fully trained soldier, a normal human would be lucky to have BS2 and joe citizen less.

In game terms the Tau described wouldnt work.

Raxmei
10-09-2008, 08:42
Increasing Fire Warrior BS and points cost would have some interesting secondary effects. It would increase the per warrior offense without increasing his defense. Combined with a points hike that would make fire warriors lose offensive power even faster under fire than they already do.

Many other units lose firepower slowly at first as basic weapons troopers die while more effective heavy and special weapons troopers last nearly to the end. When fire warriors take losses they lose firepower steadily. Increase the firepower per warrior by improving BS and you make this tendency more pronounced as you lose even more with each death. It might be interesting to see how that would turn out in practice.

Ravening Wh0re
10-09-2008, 09:57
I'm willing to let the OP use BS4 AP3 basic weaponry against me. However, the basic statline fo the gun would have to change. It would be 18" Heavy1. Fair enough?

Khaine's Messenger
10-09-2008, 10:09
What do you think would be a fair price to give Tau Fire Warriors a bs of 4 and to make pulse rifles ap 3?

Restructuring the Tau armylist and a points increase would probably be justifiable if those stat changes were implemented. It would be safer and more immediately testable to port the option for Rail Rifles to Fire Warrior squads, to be honest. Also, with respect to BS 4 specifically, I believe that such a thing is approximately worth the cost of an Ethereal or a networked markerlight with added interest to make the effect stick. But I've never really used either. I usually field multiple commanders rather than risk one of the Aun, and I usually don't have room for markerdrones.

Sidstyler
10-09-2008, 10:58
Just...no. Tau are just fine as they are, and if GW went crazy and gave them a statline like that I'd probably hide my models under the bed so I don't get lynched by angry Marine fanboys chanting "kill the weeaboos".

It's the same reason why Eldar skimmers don't move 72" a turn and why they aren't ridiculously hard to...pop...okay, but they aren't as bad as they were before. You can't let the fluff write the rules (which of course is what they seem to be doing with the release of Marines :p), or else Eldar would win the game before it even started, 5 Marines could fight off 10-20k worth of points from any other army, and proably win, Ork armies would have over 500 models in them at 1000 points, etc.

Anyway, I'd also like to know where everyone's getting the idea that Tau are physically weaker than humans. What humans, Catachans? Space Marines? Because I thought they were about as strong as your average human and fairly well built (talking about the fire caste here, the warriors, if you're going to compare an air caste to a guardsmen then yeah you'd probably be right). Their aversion to close combat isn't because they're too weak to fight you know...anyway, I'd just like to see proof is all. Is it in Xenology? The Uplifting Primer is just Imperial Propaganda, so if it's in there then it's probably not true. :p

erion
10-09-2008, 11:17
Has the Original Poster even read Codex: Tau Empire?

There are way more things available in the Tau arsenal to deal with 3+ saves in a much more flexible manner than static gunlines of fire warriors.

Statistically, 12 Basic Fire Warriors with pulse rifles are more effective shooting at identical targets at any range than 10 Bolter armed space marines for 30 fewer points ( 2 more models) Space Marines hit more often, but the bolter is wounding less frequently than the pulse rifle with the same AP. That's with a basic, no upgrade squad not using any of the synergies that are what really make the Tau effective.

That basic squad of fire warriors hits 1/2 the time and wounds 2/3 of the time vs T4 targets. The Basic Squad of Tactical Marines hits 2/3 of the time and wounds 1/2 the time. So for every 12 shots fired by a Fire Warrior squad you get 6 hits and four wounds. For every 10 shots fired by Tactical Marines you get 6.66~ hits and 3.33~ wounds vs T4.

Give that fire warrior squad a single markerlight bonus (makes the squad 10 points more than the marines if taken as a marker drone upgrade for a shas'ui, but this is potentially free from a squad of Pathfinders marking the target for you) and things shift drastically in their favor over the marines, because there is no upgrade that can be taken by a Tactical Squad that improves their BS. That give us 8 hits and 5.33~ wounds for every 12 shots fired (on average).

I'll give you that the Marines are FAR more effective in Assaults than Fire Warriors, but that's where target priority comes into play.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not how big your guns are that matters. It's how you use them together. Fire warriors are simply the backbone of an army with lots of different ways to deal with specific threats.

Need Anti-horde? Stealth Suits with Burst Cannons, Railheads (Large Template)
Need AP3? Crisis Suits with Plasma Rifles and Fusion Guns, Ion Heads, Pathfinder Rail Rifles
Need Anti-Armor? Railheads and Broadsides

Every single time I have lost with my Tau it has been for one of three reasons:
1) I brought the proverbial knife to a gun fight. I used the wrong gear to face my opponent's army and paid for it.
2) I didn't prioritize my targets effectively and allowed assault units to engage my units before reducing their threat levels appropriately
3) my dice failed :)

Everybody has had days where dice fail, and I haven't yet heard of a perfect "Take all Comers' Tau List (If you've got one, send me a PM!). 5th edition does a lot to help me with #2, since units can no longer sweeping advance from one combat directly into the next and it gives me a chance to deal with assaulting units before they crash headlong into another of my fragile sqauds (assuming my turn is next).

In my opinion, the one thing that could be done to improve fire warriors is to allow them a "stand-and-shoot" reaction for the first round of an assault instead of immediately using their pulse rifles as clubs. That's a pipe dream, though.

But AP3 Pulse Rifles? That's just silly...

pringles978
10-09-2008, 11:24
Dear god, i cant believe a Tau player doesnt think his shooting is powerfull enough...

Sidstyler
10-09-2008, 11:44
It happens all too often pringles.

Anyway erion, you seem to have forgotten that the tactical squad can pack sepcial and heavy weapons, and with the new codex they're rumored to be free. Personally I don't think it's fair that you've brought up the markerlight but left that little bit out, seems like you're trying to skew this in the Tau's favor when those extra weapons the Marines have available to them give them a huge tactical advantage*. Fire warriors will only ever have pulse rifles and can't fight in CC, the Marines can not only fight in CC but they get better weapons to give them more flexibility.

*Though the topic of the thread did specifically refer to AP3 rifles, so comparing the basic gun does make sense.

So if Tau really are slightly more effective at shooting than Marines then it's still fairly balanced, they kinda HAVE to be effective at shooting since that's all they can do. And besides, Marines aren't supposed to be able to do anything better than everyone, the whole point is that they're a jack-of-all-trades, they do everything fairly well, but they can be outshot, they can be outfought, etc.

And personally I'm not going to take any statistics I see seriously, the numbers may say my Tau shoot better, but real life experience has proven time and again that my Tau can and will get outshot by Marines :p. But then again, I only just recently started making use of markerlights and I don't use them very well at that.

Chains and Glass
10-09-2008, 11:49
No Tau technology is certainly not as powerful as marine technology.

The Marines walk around in electrified Steel/Cement hybrids and fire depleted nuclear waste which literally explodes bodies. We can play a "Cold war" of words all day but the imperium has the tech, they're just more of a soviet/medievil bhuddist/christian kinda empire.

The millions have little food and toil in factories for 13 hours a day and the one sits back eating grapes hand fed to them by a servant. He/she is usually a chaos cultist ;)

The fact that the Imperium is so badly managed and the tech is so rare doesn't mean they don't have it, the marines and the inquisition are prime examples.

If your looking for the tau inadequacies then the tau 'dex is the absolute wrong dex to look for it, every dex talks up how unstoppable the race is. (unless your an eldar player, in which case its just bitching about how they're "dying" ;) )

The weakness of a Tau is well known however and is accepted canon.

In close combat no-one can hear you scream :D

MrBigMr
10-09-2008, 12:15
I don't see what's wrong with BS3. I mean, it's the ballastic skill of a trained soldier. Fire Warriors are infantry just like any other, be it Guardsman, Guardian, etc. Aren't the new SM codex gonna make Scouts BS/WS3? I don't get it why people always see the Guard as nothing but conscripts with guns. They're a professional army just like any other. Try to see that. Some might have waged war longer than your puny fire warriors, against enemies the Tau can't even imagine.

The funny thing is that in the days of bolt action rifles, soldiers were far more accurate than today with all the automatic weapons. Back then you had to hit your target, where as today you have a whole magazine that you can pour at them. Wasn't the shot/kill ratio on 'Nam like 1 000 000 : 1 or something? All that technology didn't help much. Let alone today. How many shots and missiles does it take to clear one sniper out of one building?

Technology doesn't automaticly make you a better shot.


Well at least Crisis suits should be bs 4, they have a ton of gear and should be able to shoot better than the average fire warrior.
It's called Targeting Array. Use it.

Vindicare-41,000
10-09-2008, 12:46
MrbigMr, Well said a stat i read recently was that in modern warfare only 8% of shots fired are even aimed shots.. most are point the AK round the corner and empty the mag! So back on topic Tau pulse rifles are a bit like AK's (if you have ever played 'Fire warrior' you would know that its squeeze the trigger until everything stops shooting back!. If the AP was 3 then the weapon would have to be heavy 1 to represeint the troops stopping an taking well aimes shots and not the old empyt the mag theory!

Corrupt
10-09-2008, 12:47
I don't get it why people always see the Guard as nothing but conscripts with guns. They're a professional army just like any other.
The funny thing is that in the days of bolt action rifles, soldiers were far more accurate than today with all the automatic weapons. Back then you had to hit your target, where as today you have a whole magazine that you can pour at them.

1) The wierd thing is they hold this belief despite the fact conscript with guns are in the guard codex and shockingly enough worse than normal guardsmen:P

2)The British army used to pride itself on the fact that every trained infantryman could get 15 shots on target at 300 yards in one minute (with a bolt action rifle) How did we get there ? Drills, pure and simple, I know cadets are hardly the same and I cant speak for for regulars because I'm not there yet. But why some 16-18 year old cadets cannot get 15 rounds on target at about 100 metres with a bolt action rifle with a 30 round magazine, or even worse and semi automatic LSW with SUSAT eludes me....I digress though

slayerofmen
10-09-2008, 12:51
no no, id let the OP do that at hey 23-25pts each, however before that id ask to be given say a month to prepare my orc army totting 180 boys all totting nobs with powerklaws.
i for one have always wanted to see a man cry, because of toy soldiers

R Man
10-09-2008, 13:01
If we say that firewarriors should have higher BS and AP we can also say that this should apply to Marines, and then to Eldar and then to Necrons and then things start to get stupid, a point that has already been made. Ultimately it comes down to logic. Space Marines and heavy armour in general is rare. It would be overkill for the Tau to provide these weapons for basic troopers. It would be like soldiers today using anti-tank weapons to kill Insurgence. Gamewise it would invalidate other forms of heavy weaponary on vehicles and other things.

And remember that while 1k sons have AP 3, they are slow, have a shorter range and have a very high entry level points costs due to their sorcerer.

Edit: Forgot to mention that 1k sons have weaker guns (Strength wise) than pulse rifles.

MrBigMr
10-09-2008, 13:14
1) The wierd thing is they hold this belief despite the fact conscript with guns are in the guard codex and shockingly enough worse than normal guardsmen:P
In stats, but not in game mechanics. I've seen some mathhammering on conscripts and done some myself and conscripts are pretty good.


2)The British army used to pride itself on the fact that every trained infantryman could get 15 shots on target at 300 yards in one minute (with a bolt action rifle) How did we get there ? Drills, pure and simple, I know cadets are hardly the same and I cant speak for for regulars because I'm not there yet. But why some 16-18 year old cadets cannot get 15 rounds on target at about 100 metres with a bolt action rifle with a 30 round magazine, or even worse and semi automatic LSW with SUSAT eludes me....I digress though
Target shooting is easy. It's not moving and no one is shooting at you. Even though during exercise there was no real danger of getting shot, there was the feel of urgency and all, which made aiming far more difficult. Though not when you got the drop on the target.

Lord Raneus
10-09-2008, 14:08
I agree. Orks should be S4 and decrees their LD and WS or whatever. Even exchange their BS to 1 and Str to 4 would be good. I don't think pt should go up because you need a horde army like for Orks to fit the fluff.

Yeah BS1 and S4. Nob could be S5 and Warboss S6! Green is Mean!

I disagree; they'd become too good against Eldar, and would have to lose Furious Charge.

S3 for orks is more of an abstraction, they're not as strong as Space Marines, but stronger than humans. Like strength 3.5.

erion
10-09-2008, 14:44
If you want to include heavy and special weapons, Then we'll also need to bring up the fact that you can't shoot the heavy at all on the move, as well as the simple fact that the pulse rifle outranges all of the Tactical Squad's special weapons, so the only weapon they'll be firing at a Fire Warrior squad at maximum range is the heavy, or maybe not firing at all and moving closer. And a basic special weapon is free in a 10-man Tactical squad in the new codex, but anything other than that is at a upgrade cost. I was comparing basic weapons to basic weapons. No Matter how you slice it, the lascannon is still only one shot.

And I am purposely making the Tau sound better, because too many people seem to have it in their heads that Marines are the best at everything, and that's simply not the case.

mchmr6677
10-09-2008, 15:37
And in addition, if you want to include the rumored parts of the new marine dex, remember that the marine squad is now even more expensive because it comes with a vet sgt weither the player wants one or not.

Bunnahabhain
10-09-2008, 17:28
On topic. AP3 is just silly. AP4, on the other hand, although not needed, is perfectly reasonable. Just another way to make all those 4+ saves less use...

BS3 for fire warriors is fine, as it does represent trained soldiers. Markerlights allowing any BS you like, in effect, are more than enough.



2)The British army used to pride itself on the fact that every trained infantryman could get 15 shots on target at 300 yards in one minute (with a bolt action rifle) How did we get there ? Drills, pure and simple, I know cadets are hardly the same and I cant speak for for regulars because I'm not there yet. But why some 16-18 year old cadets cannot get 15 rounds on target at about 100 metres with a bolt action rifle with a 30 round magazine, or even worse and semi automatic LSW with SUSAT eludes me....I digress though

Off topic.
Some rough figures from WW2 ( decent sized bit of field research...)
Hits per round of fire, so 1 round from a bolt action, or a burst from an automatic weapon.

Germany: ~ 80%
British empire ~75%
Americans~10%
Russians~ 8%

It's not just trained soldiers, it's how you're trained. British and German troops were trained to hit. The Germans had the MG 34/42, highly accurate, sustained fire GPMG, and the British army, as noted, trained to put aimed rounds fast. So fast, in fact, that it was first though by their targets that they were using automatic weapons.

American training emphasised weight of fire, and suppression of the target to allow another fire group to kill it to a far higher degree than other armies, so less fire would hit.

Russian troops, well, training sometimes happened.....

Nym
10-09-2008, 17:49
too many people seem to have it in their heads that Marines are the best at everything, and that's simply not the case.

So right. Orks have the best technology anyway... Shokk Attack Gun anyone ? :D

Supreme Archon Orlok
10-09-2008, 17:56
i agree if you did that to tau and GW went with fluff on all the races particular guns necron gauss weaponry would be the best out there necron guns would be 1 hit kills.

Shas'o Lar
10-09-2008, 18:43
As a side note - from what I know, originally during their development Tau actually had BS4, however after extensive game testing GW decided to drop this because the Tau were just killing anything in their sight. After that, they added the bit of fluff explaining that they have bad sight and thus only BS3.

I wouldn't really mind getting that BS4 (especially since my dice rolls are just horrible), perhaps like an option, for example +1 to BS for 4 points per model. I know it seems kinda cheap, but hey, we already got BS4 Fire Warriors for 12 pts, now we just need the option to take more of them :D

Also, I LOVE the idea of Rail Rifles on Fire Warriors, this would definitely give us less of an headache for fighting MEQs, while still not being gamebreaking.

senorcardgage
10-09-2008, 21:21
Statistically, 12 Basic Fire Warriors with pulse rifles are more effective shooting at identical targets at any range than 10 Bolter armed space marines for 30 fewer points ( 2 more models) Space Marines hit more often, but the bolter is wounding less frequently than the pulse rifle with the same AP. That's with a basic, no upgrade squad not using any of the synergies that are what really make the Tau effective.


How about models that are T2? Or, T7? ;)

Havock
10-09-2008, 21:40
Any arguments of Tau having much better technology than the imperium can -and will- be countered with a short point about the Tau using the Lunar as a template for their newest generation of cruiser. Despite the fact that the Lunar is the most common cruiser the imperium has :p
And far from stellar in performance.

Haha, stellar, spaceship, get it? Eheheh... ahem.

MrBigMr
10-09-2008, 21:48
I do agree that if an army is suppose to get insane basic guns, Necrons should have weapons that make Tau look like something that just crawled out of a pool of primordial soup.


As for weapon upgrades for fire warrior squads, I think gun drones should be their "HW" platforms. Replace TL pulse carbines with a burst cannon (note, not TL) for Xpts.; missile pod for Xpts.; plasma rifle for Xpts.; etc. Would give FW units some versatility and make them able to tackle various problems. Tanks? 2 Fusion Blasters. MEQ? 2 Plasma Rifles. Hordes? Flamers or Burst Cannons. Need overall fire support? 2 Missile Pods. There's a whole world of posibilities, and BS2 would not make them too powerful.

Raxmei
10-09-2008, 21:49
I wouldn't really mind getting that BS4 (especially since my dice rolls are just horrible), perhaps like an option, for example +1 to BS for 4 points per model. I know it seems kinda cheap, but hey, we already got BS4 Fire Warriors for 12 pts, now we just need the option to take more of them :DBy my admittedly inexpert calculations an upgrade to BS4 should only cost 3 points, tops. Going from 3 to 4 produces a third again as many hits. A points increase by 30% for it would produce a marginal improvement in terms of points per hit and a significant deficit when it comes to taking casualties. That only makes the slightest bit of sense if your opponents are unable to shoot back, and a points increase of +4 would just be a loss all around. +4 per model would make Fire Warriors only a little cheaper than Space Marines. 12 points actually feels about right.

Firaxin
10-09-2008, 22:16
What's wrong with making them as expensive as space marines? In fact, according to fluff, they should be far more expensive than space marines, because they are so much rarer.

Besides, I've never seen any tau players take more than the minimum amount of fire warriors. So if they represent how tau fight in the real world (and by real i mean the fluff), then fire warriors are rare even within the tau army, let alone the galaxy.

Also I agree with giving drones greater variation, they would be sick then and I'd load up on whole squads of them.

MrBigMr
10-09-2008, 23:01
Rare is not the same as expensive in points. If it was, Guardsmen should actually give you extra points to use, leman russes whould be 10pts. a piece, etc. Besides, there's only a million Marines in the galaxy. A million. Somehow I'm picturing that a quarter of the Tau population would amount to more than a million.

Kulgur
11-09-2008, 02:18
There's less firewarriors but they're far far more concentrated

azimaith
11-09-2008, 02:39
I concede the point about the ap 3 weapons, they would be game breaking. I still do not understand the reason for bs 3. Also, where is everyone getting their ideas about the horrible physical attributes of the Tau? I have found no such thing in the Tau codex, the only place I know of with this information is in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and that also says that Tyranids are not that threatening, since they only have blunt claws and are scared of bright lights.
It was the previous codex that had information stating tau had problems with depth perception, possibly because they had developed from herbivores (which doesn't make much sense science wise because they not have binocular vision and they were plains hunters for a while after making it weird that they wouldn't develop depth perception.)

The problem with tau isn't their BS, its that marker lights are on mostly crappy platforms and are very expensive.

I'd love to see tau become a very combined arms marker light heavy army with models that could survive for long enough to deliver them.

Kaldaris
11-09-2008, 03:34
Firewarriors are fine, at best I'd give them an ability to re-roll 1's or make em cheaper.

What Tau need in 5th is Assault Markerlights, and bs4 battlesuits without paying for some silly upgrade.

Firaxin
11-09-2008, 04:00
Rare is not the same as expensive in points. If it was, Guardsmen should actually give you extra points to use, leman russes whould be 10pts. a piece, etc.
Well, I'm primarily a guard player, followed closely by 'nids. So that was the intent all along. :angel:



Besides, there's only a million Marines in the galaxy. A million. Somehow I'm picturing that a quarter of the Tau population would amount to more than a million.

Not true. There are 1,000 marine chapters, supposedly. The Codex Astartes limits these to 1,000 marines each. But I'm guessing a majority of them are actually larger, in the 1,000-1,500 range, since many chapters see the Codex as mere 'guidelines.'

Black Templar for example have something approaching 10,000 marines.

So while I'm sure there could be 1/3 chapters at 1-999 in strength, 1/3 at ~1000 in strength, and 1/3 at 1,001-20,000..... although we really have no idea and I'm just speculating.

Besides when i say more than the tau i really mean more than the fire caste.

senorcardgage
11-09-2008, 04:13
Firewarriors are fine, at best I'd give them an ability to re-roll 1's or make em cheaper.

What Tau need in 5th is Assault Markerlights, and bs4 battlesuits without paying for some silly upgrade.

I don't think fire warriors need to get any cheaper. Could you imagine if they went down to 8 points and were as much as an Eldar Guardian??

I've never found that fire warriors were bad at all, and are quite a deal actually!

MrBigMr
11-09-2008, 09:56
Not true. There are 1,000 marine chapters, supposedly. The Codex Astartes limits these to 1,000 marines each. But I'm guessing a majority of them are actually larger, in the 1,000-1,500 range, since many chapters see the Codex as mere 'guidelines.'

Black Templar for example have something approaching 10,000 marines.
I remember seeing some list of official chapters and it came at around 850 or something. And SM number are what they are. Sure, they fluxuate around the 1000 (taken that many things don't count towards this number), but going grosly over it sure to rise attention. The Black Templars get around it because they're so spread that there's no way of monitoring their numbers.

The latest WD says there's a million Marines.


Besides when i say more than the tau i really mean more than the fire caste.
Fire caste makes up about a quarter of the Tau people (assuming the Ethereals aren't as big of a group as the rest). Surely the race that has spread across the stars is bigger than few million. Even we're at 6 billion at the moment. Even if there were 10 million Marines, I can not believe Tau numbers are less than 50 million, or a 100 million, or even a billion. You know how thin that would stretch them? All the septs and all the planets, dividing a race of few million.

Sidstyler
11-09-2008, 10:46
Besides, I've never seen any tau players take more than the minimum amount of fire warriors. So if they represent how tau fight in the real world (and by real i mean the fluff), then fire warriors are rare even within the tau army, let alone the galaxy.


:rolleyes: I never take less than 3 squads in higher point games, and I always use Kroot, too.

Two or three people who game in your area are hardly representative of the entire population of Tau players. If you want to be that way then I can say Guardsmen are rarer than Space Marines in the fluff, since everyone plays Space Marines and I've only ever seen one Guard player.

Firaxin
11-09-2008, 14:17
Fire caste makes up about a quarter of the Tau people (assuming the Ethereals aren't as big of a group as the rest). Surely the race that has spread across the stars is bigger than few million. Even we're at 6 billion at the moment. Even if there were 10 million Marines, I can not believe Tau numbers are less than 50 million, or a 100 million, or even a billion. You know how thin that would stretch them? All the septs and all the planets, dividing a race of few million.

They might as well be that small. A few million more won't make a difference. They were, after all, seriously freaked out upon learning the population of one hive city on one hive planet, let alone that there were dozens of such cities on the planet or that there were tens of thousands of hive worlds.

SoB can make up the difference in power armored fighters.

Lord Raneus
11-09-2008, 14:21
I don't think fire warriors need to get any cheaper. Could you imagine if they went down to 8 points and were as much as an Eldar Guardian??

I've never found that fire warriors were bad at all, and are quite a deal actually!

Indeed. Decent toughness, an amazing firearm, and a good armor save, makes for quite a steal at their current price.

Also, as mentioned, FWs are sort of poor in numbers, but in concentration they are quite numerous, as the Tau "Empire" is pathetically small.

Kealios
11-09-2008, 19:50
I only read through the first page (sorry if this was mentioned somewhere else), but an Ethereal's Honor Guard consists of FWs with BS4 for +2 points per model. There ARE some elite units out there with better shooting skills for barely any more.

As for Crisis Suits with BS4, well, theyre BS3 for a reason because a 10 point increase can make them BS4. BS4 would make that to BS5, and that would get out of hand quickly.

Remember, game balance sometimes must overrule fluff. Markerlights need to be factored into the equation as well, dont forget. Voila, BS 5 Firewarrior Bodyguard. Ouchies.

As for AP3 weapons, get some Vespid :P

SwordJon
11-09-2008, 20:14
Firewarriors are okay. More firewarriors are better.

Firewarriors supported by outflanking/meat shield kroot are awesome.

Firewarriors supported by kroot and two large-ish squads of pathfinders = HORRIBLE RAPE

MrBigMr
11-09-2008, 20:39
As for Crisis Suits with BS4, well, theyre BS3 for a reason because a 10 point increase can make them BS4. BS4 would make that to BS5, and that would get out of hand quickly.
How about they make the array standard gear, up the suit price by 10pts. and drop the amount of hardpoints to 2? There, everyone's happy.

Grogugluk
11-09-2008, 23:06
The problem with making them all killy vs meq's and increasing their price makes them a whole lot worse vs orks and nids.

So... its a double edged sword

General Squeek Squeek
11-09-2008, 23:58
as others have said firewarrior's are perfectly fine as they are. The problem with attributing fluff to a game is this system uses a d6. Think about it the difference on the stat line between a guard and marine is 1. Were talking about a biologically engineered superhuman compared to Joe Blow. You also run into marine syndrome where a str 4 ap 5 gun is average. In reality this gun is amazing and powerful, but its so common its seen as a standard. Compared to the lasgun the tau's weapons are completely superior in every way.

Firaxin
12-09-2008, 01:54
Compared to the lasgun the tau's weapons are completely superior in every way.

teehee

Nope. :angel:

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-09-2008, 10:19
What do you think would be a fair price to give Tau Fire Warriors a bs of 4 and to make pulse rifles ap 3?

Uh... play Thousand Sons?


They are a shooty based army that is supposed to have superior technology as their main strong point. So why do they have the same bs as a Guardsmen? Also you would think that their superior tech would allow them to come up with a way to punch through power armor. I understand that this could be seen as overpowering Fire Warriors, I would be fine with settling for just the increase in bs, even if ap 3 weapons would be a lot of fun.

And Space Marines are supposed to be pretty much unstoppable, with a half-dozen models taking on armies. Guard are supposed to be a neverending wave of tanks and men. Eldar are supposed to be glass cannons. Etc, etc. No one army really lives up to their fluff.


Also, why do gun drones have a worse bs than normal people. Do we not use computers today to shoot missiles out of the sky, a feat impossible for a normal person to manage? So how come, 40,000 years from now, someone can't come up with a computer that can put a round downrange with more accuracy than an Ork, who is just as likely to shoot at a funny shaped rock as the enemy?

This I'm not sure on, I think it might have to do with game balance.

MrBigMr
12-09-2008, 12:22
I think people sometimes have a little too high of an expectation of modern technology. Sure, you have computers and all, but they're also pretty fragile. Military laser measuring equipment are far too prone to fry themselves (at least the ones I've heard of, I never got to operate one) and how many times have those "smart" missile and bombs actually hit their mark outside of test zones? Not to forget that even modern day anti-missile systems are not 100% accurate. Why do you think phalanx has a minigun on it instead of some one shot wonder? The computer is good at tracking the target, but doesn't make it a real marksman.

Sidstyler
12-09-2008, 13:12
How about they make the array standard gear, up the suit price by 10pts. and drop the amount of hardpoints to 2? There, everyone's happy.

Eww, no...all my suits except for my HQ squad would be illegal.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-09-2008, 14:14
I may be mistaken but doesn't everybody call the gauss flayer the best basic firearm?

Nah, I call a Bolter in the hands of a Battle Sisters the best basic firearm.

Besides, Gauss Flayers and Pulse Rifles aren't firearms! :p

MrBigMr
12-09-2008, 14:21
Eww, no...all my suits except for my HQ squad would be illegal.
*somewhere at the background an Emperor's Children is playing the world's smallest sonic blaster*

C'est la vie, my friend, c'est la vie.


Besides, Gauss Flayers and Pulse Rifles aren't firearms! :p
But a gauss cannon and heavy gauss cannon used by the destroyer (http://homepages.tig.com.au/~tezzajw/destroyer.jpg) are.

Kriegsherr
12-09-2008, 14:25
I agree. Orks should be S4 and decrees their LD and WS or whatever. Even exchange their BS to 1 and Str to 4 would be good. I don't think pt should go up because you need a horde army like for Orks to fit the fluff.

Yeah BS1 and S4. Nob could be S5 and Warboss S6! Green is Mean!

Yeah, making longtime ork players like me who where quite pissed when the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition made ork shooty go from scary to laughable angry again?

Orks are perfectly fine. S4 orks with FC would be too good in assaults, and Orks with BS 1 would be really underpowered in shooting. Even now a good portion of orky wargear is very pricey for the 1/3 chance you have to hit anything (the mek-blasta for example, or orky shooty-tanks altogether)... giving them BS1 would make them go from hillarious funny nonsensical to ridicoulously dumb.
And of course, tanks and shooty weapons had to go down in price...

Na, orks are perfect as they are... the bad BS is balanced by the amount of shots they get, and the good ws and many attacks are balanced by the missing armour... a perfect jack-of-all-trades horde army.


On the subject of firewarriors... I also see no problem with giving them BS4. Firewarriors right now are too expensive anyway for what they do, they'll need a boost or price drop anyway to be enough attractive to be more than a unit you only take because you have to.
And even though they should be physically challenged to humies, their tech should be state of the art and their eyes and minds and their shortcomings shouldn't really matter in a technological environment where everyone just plugs in to a computer and has the data of complex calculations sent directly into their brains.
Really, it would give the Tau the little edge on shootyness they currently lack... and might give GW the opportunity to raise prices on the currently underpriced crisis and broadside suits.

DS 3 is a little bit too much for a standart weapon, DS4 however would be fine and a fun way to show that a pulse rifle is much stronger than an imperial bolter.

I think 12-15 points would be fine for BS4 DS4 warriors, just because they STILL suck in CC and when it comes to take LD-Tests (I would like tau to be the one and only army without a real LD-Hack, and have boosts on tech, tools and BS to make up for fearlessness-ifying of all other armies... would make Tau even more fluffy and interesting than they are now.... cowards hiding behind big guns and awesome mecha-suits :) )

Slaaneshi Slave
12-09-2008, 15:04
But a gauss cannon and heavy gauss cannon used by the destroyer (http://homepages.tig.com.au/~tezzajw/destroyer.jpg) are.

With no fire and no boom boom?

Derling
12-09-2008, 15:56
AP3 on a baseline troop would be gamebreaking.

yeah...i'm sure Chaos doesn't have any of those! ;)

I actually widely agree with you, I just thought this was funny with the existance of the Thousand Sons.

Burning Star IV
12-09-2008, 16:46
They might as well be that small. A few million more won't make a difference. They were, after all, seriously freaked out upon learning the population of one hive city on one hive planet, let alone that there were dozens of such cities on the planet or that there were tens of thousands of hive worlds.

SoB can make up the difference in power armored fighters.

Okay, but were they shocked to see such a large population, or were they shocked at the population density and living conditions on these hive worlds? The figure you came up with estimating one third of space marine chapters to have up to 20,000 marines seems...umm...way off base, to say the least. So instead of these bogus figures, lets go with the consensus: there are approximately 1,000,000 marines. The Tau have how many septs? Eight in the first phase alone. Some of these are urban. This is a very strong suggestion that the population of the Tau empire would be several billion. It wouldn't be a matter of outnumbering by "a few million", it would be hundreds of millions.

Firaxin
12-09-2008, 16:56
Firewarriors right now are too expensive anyway for what they do, they'll need a boost or price drop anyway to be enough attractive to be more than a unit you only take because you have to.
Firewarriors aren't underpriced. They're a bargain, if anything. People take so few of them because there are other options in the codex that are underpriced so that they're even better than firewarriors.



And even though they should be physically challenged to humies, their tech should be state of the art and their eyes and minds and their shortcomings shouldn't really matter in a technological environment where everyone just plugs in to a computer and has the data of complex calculations sent directly into their brains.
A computer plugged into ones brain giving the them range, firing solutions, wind vectors, etc, HELPS, but it doesn't make up for actual physical frailties of the person, such as difficulty holding the gun still while aiming due to its weight, shouldering the recoil enough that it doesn't totally ruin your shot, etc...



Really, it would give the Tau the little edge on shootyness they currently lack...
I wasn't aware they lacked any edge in shootyness...



DS 3 is a little bit too much for a standart weapon, DS4 however would be fine and a fun way to show that a pulse rifle is much stronger than an imperial bolter.
But Strength 5 doesn't show that its stronger than an imperial bolter?



(I would like tau to be the one and only army without a real LD-Hack, and have boosts on tech, tools and BS to make up for fearlessness-ifying of all other armies... would make Tau even more fluffy and interesting than they are now.... cowards hiding behind big guns and awesome mecha-suits :) )

Kinda like IG with vox-casters...

Nym
12-09-2008, 18:23
I can't believe some Tau players here are actually complaining about their shooting... I suggest those people who think Firewarriors are 1) Overpriced or 2) Underpowered, to go and buy an Imperial Guard army.

I'd trade a thousand flashlights for one of those shiny Pulse Riffles. For the price of a Stormtrooper, you get a guy who can wound Marines & Orks on 3+, ignore horde armies armor saves, save against bolter rounds, all of this with a 30" range... :eyebrows:

Deadnight
12-09-2008, 18:27
well, fire warriors have the same stats as cadians when it comes to BS, and they're troops who basically learn how to shoot through the hole in polo mints before they can walk..

if tau get bs4, then so do cadians, mordians, and a dozen other regiments of renown.

bs3 is fine. matching wits with cadians is something to be proud of.

and doing the sums, a basic tau grunt with a gun has the same kill ratio as the greatest warrior of the Imperium (Marines) when shooting other marines. not something shabby....

sydbridges
12-09-2008, 19:30
Orks are perfectly fine.

Oh, I'd agree that they're fine from a balance point of view, it's just from a fluff point of view, I'm a little confused how an ork boy, who has arms like bigger than a fire warrior's legs, is as strong as a fire warrior. Fluffwise I would have thought orks would be as strong as a space marine, since both are genetically engineered killing machines... and given that when you look at the models, those ork boys look like they could rip the arms off a guardsman without much difficulty.

MrBigMr
12-09-2008, 19:53
Just because you have big muscles doesn't mean you're strong. Have you seen those guys in the Strong Man competitions? They look like truckers rather than body builders. Also, strength doesn't mean how much a model can lift weights, but rather how well it wounds something. I would think that Orks aren't that good at placing their strong swings, where as Kroot have S4 because their muscles are well tuned and able to do quick, accurate jabs (right?). Imagine a big bar fighter vs. special forces soldier.

Also to remember, Orks are funky (or is that fungi?), so their muscles aren't exactly of same type as ours. They might need more muscle mass to reach our levels.

Vaktathi
12-09-2008, 21:10
What do you think would be a fair price to give Tau Fire Warriors a bs of 4 and to make pulse rifles ap 3? 20pts each. I'm don't think that would be too unwarranted for a model with an S5 weapon and a 30" range with BS4.



They are a shooty based army that is supposed to have superior technology as their main strong point. So why do they have the same bs as a Guardsmen? Guardsmen are trained soldiers. BS3 is exactly what you would expect from a trained and experienced soldier. BS4 is reserved for genetically engineered super soldiers and some Space Elves.


Also you would think that their superior tech would allow them to come up with a way to punch through power armor. I understand that this could be seen as overpowering Fire Warriors, I would be fine with settling for just the increase in bs, even if ap 3 weapons would be a lot of fun. Again, at 20pts each, go for it.



Also, why do gun drones have a worse bs than normal people. Do we not use computers today to shoot missiles out of the sky, a feat impossible for a normal person to manage? So how come, 40,000 years from now, someone can't come up with a computer that can put a round downrange with more accuracy than an Ork, who is just as likely to shoot at a funny shaped rock as the enemy?Computers are fine for shooting at stationary targets, however for trying to shoot at something that is likely taking cover and making random evasive maneuvers, computers really aren't good at all at that kind of thing. Also, the US anti-ballistic missile system is a giant piece of crap, with the majority of tests in highly controlled situations still missing.




You seem to have fallen into the same trap that many other have, that just because something is "advanced" means it has to kill space marines like flies and if *anything* is the same as a Guardsmen it's not true to the fluff. Remember that the Imperial Guard isn't just a conscript horde meatshield, its composed of the best human troops each planet has to offer, and that many are hardened combat veterans. BS3 is a solid BS for a trained soldiers, while BS4 would be an extremely accurate and steady handed exception, fit for elite shock troops with extra gear, space marines, and trained Eldar aspects.

S5 basic weapons, skimmer technology, Jetpack battlesuits, etc are all fairly advanced things. I don't think Tau really need BS4 AP3 basic troops.

Sidstyler
12-09-2008, 21:33
I can't believe some Tau players here are actually complaining about their shooting...


You're exaggerating a bit, don't you think? It's really only one guy complaining, the OP, and maybe one other person since I've last read the thread it seems, but everyone else (including other Tau players like myself) have come in here to say it's just fine the way it is.


And even though they should be physically challenged to humies

No they're not.

For the last time, they are NOT physically weaker compared to humans, the CC deficiency does NOT come from physical weakness but rather other shortcomings like eyesight, and a societal distaste for it, end of story. There's an Index Xenos article about Tau that even says the average fire caste member is as strong as a human (which I thought was best reflected by their statline), and it even depends on the sept, Vior'la members could be even stronger for instance. So I don't know where people are getting the idea that they're just pansies. :rolleyes:


*somewhere at the background an Emperor's Children is playing the world's smallest sonic blaster*

And even further away there's a Squat playing whatever the hell Squats play.

And I still think that's ridiculous, too. You can still use EC vehicles and terminators with sonic weapons, they just don't get rules for them in game (so sick and tired of hearing about this too, why does every thread need to be about C:CSM). The models are not useless. My suits, however, wouldn't be WYSIWYG and I wouldn't even be able to field them as "counts-as" without a lot of cutting and possibly damaging the models, so there's a difference.

Once again, my heart bleeds for the Legions, but I don't see why my models should be invalidated just because they feel theirs were. GW ****ed up their codex and I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean mine has to be ****ed up, too. :eyebrows:

Just seems rather angry and bitter to me. "My codex doesn't do my army justice so no one's codex should!", that's what I'm reading (although in this case it'd be more like the codex is doing them too much justice, don't need mandatory BS4). =\

Biochemnuclrad
12-09-2008, 22:55
whoever thinks a pulse rifle is better than a bolter in the fluff is of there rocker...

the bolter is supposed to be a the equilivant to an grenade launcher that shoots out in 4-round bursts like an assault rifle, with the bolts blowing up in the targets body...

take19
12-09-2008, 23:06
A fire warrior at BS4? I don't agree, I think that that should be saved for Pathfinders with some form of upgrade, or suits. BS 3 suits the FW.

Sidstyler
12-09-2008, 23:49
BS3 is really not that bad when you think about it. Maintaining a 50% hit rate in a chaotic warzone with aliens and daemons and all sorts of other nasty things bearing down on you is nothing to scoff at. The only ones better are gigantic superhumans and older-than-dirt psychic fairies, and that doesn't count because they cheat. :p

As for AP3, like it's been said, Tau hardly lack AP3 weaponry. It's just carried by things people aren't inclined to take most of the time. Sniper drones, rail rifle pathfinders, Vespid...the least popular units in the Tau army.


whoever thinks a pulse rifle is better than a bolter in the fluff is of there rocker...

the bolter is supposed to be a the equilivant to an grenade launcher that shoots out in 4-round bursts like an assault rifle, with the bolts blowing up in the targets body...

"The bolter is better because it's louder and makes a bigger mess!"

In either case I don't think anyone can really say one is better than the other. It's pretty much impossible anyway since GW likes to hype up every weapon to make you fall in love with that army more anyway, each weapons description might as well say "It's better than teh otehrs! buy our miniz now!"

Edonil
12-09-2008, 23:58
A couple of things to note about stuff in this thread...
#1- I started this hobby playing 40k, switched 100% over to fantasy, and am making a small, gradual comeback for the opportunity to get more variety out of my gaming time. Now, I've played fantasy exclusively for over a year, and I can tell you this much- STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT BS3! It's only 'bad' in 40k because there are no modifiers. A consistent 50% to hit a target is a beautiful thing! (if you disagree with me, run the numbers on a unit of Imperial Guardsmen against Empire Handgunners at 24" range, and then consider what that means...)
Realistically, a BS3 trooper is hitting more consistently than people are today in most 'modern' armies (no offense meant to anyone in the military). It really is not a bad thing at all. It's only 'bad' in the context of 40k because of the number of Space Marine armies out there in the world.
#2- Issue of population of the Tau. Now, the total number of Tau compared to the total number of anything, is irrelevant in terms of military capability. A member of the Earth or Water Caste would never enter the battlefield to fight alongside the Fire caste. That is not their role in society, and before anyone starts the whole 'they would if their lives depended on it'- no, they really wouldn't. The Tau are a caste system, where you fit in the order of things is extremely important. Yes, the Tau themselves may be a couple billion in number, but the Fire Warrior caste is not that large, which is what the 40k game is largely concerned about. And, the total population of the Tau Empire is also deceptive- the Tau have many races that they have absorbed (for the greater good, of course...nothing to do with imperialistic ideas) into their Empire, so, we have a bit of a Roman kind of a society- the rulers of the society are outnumbered by the people they rule over.

Now, back to the topic at hand...BS4, S5, AP3 30" weapons are ridiculous. Yes, I know AP3 troops exist in the form of the Thousand Sons, but it's not that one part that makes the idea of an AP3 pulse rifle nuts- it's the combined impact of range, strength, and armor piercing. The Tau right now are perfectly balanced, and, in many ways, are perfectly matching with their fluff. They wouldn't have that kind of weaponry, not yet. Their experience against Marines (in their background) is fairly small, compared to that with Orks, Nids, and other stuff we don't know about. Remember, the core of the Tau Empire was established long before they met the Imperium- they hadn't fought things like Marines before. Funding versus development- you make what you need, and don't worry about something tougher unless that something exists. Escalation of weaponry was summed up perfectly in the movie Batman Begins- 'We buy semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We buy kevlar, they buy armor piercing bullets.' Well, the Tau haven't hit the point in fluff (and certainly not in game balance) to justify picking up guns like that.

Bunnahabhain
13-09-2008, 00:01
BS3 is really not that bad when you think about it. Maintaining a 50% hit rate in a chaotic warzone with aliens and daemons and all sorts of other nasty things bearing down on you is nothing to scoff at. The only ones better are gigantic superhumans and older-than-dirt psychic fairies, and that doesn't count because they cheat. :p

BS 3 is a trained Soldier- a Guardsmen. BS4 is a trained soldier who has survived 6 war zones, and the imperial bureacracy, or a storm trooper who's been trained from birth to be the best human soldier possible without power armour.



As for AP3, like it's been said, Tau hardly lack AP3 weaponry. It's just carried by things people aren't inclined to take most of the time. Sniper drones, rail rifle pathfinders, Vespid...the least popular units in the Tau army.


Seconded. If only more AP1 and 2 things were AP 3, so you had the very rare things that can beat terminator/mega armour, the uncommon ones that can beat power armour, and leaving the common stuff at something sensible.



"The bolter is better because it's louder and makes a bigger mess!"

In either case I don't think anyone can really say one is better than the other. It's pretty much impossible anyway since GW likes to hype up every weapon to make you fall in love with that army more anyway, each weapons description might as well say "It's better than teh otehrs! buy our miniz now!"
This has even been tried with the lasgun, although they had to fall back on it's so reliable, and can be recharged in the fire....

Hollopoint
13-09-2008, 00:05
I play Tau as my main 40k army and I always include an above average amount of Fire warriors. I find them to be incredibly versatile and in the age of 5th and the importance of troop choices I always take 30/40 of them.

They are already extremely hard unless in combat but to those of you who let your warriors get into close combat deserve to get butchered. I find range 30 to be invaluable and a little thought on deployment can really take advantage of this. Strength 5 is hard as nails as is and making them AP3 would be game-breaking as others have mentioned. I think Fire Warriors are fine the way they are. You can always combine them with marker lights to make their BS higher and I think you pay the correct amount of points for that pleasure.

Ap 4,3,2,1 are for suits and specialized troops and should remain as such. I already pack a fair amount of marine killy AP and to be honest I would feel guilty if I had any more.

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2008, 00:07
I'm new to 40k. But St5 Ap3 Bs4 troops as a troop choice seems like the perfect anti-marine unit.
Especially if they got crappy stats to make them a bit cheaper so you get to take MORE of them.

30" range AND rapid fire.....oh dear lord.
I'de sugguest a point's cost of 35points per man for that at their current crappy stats.
Unit size 10+

That would make them at least somewhat fair.

Echoing other people's statements about other races that are technologically advanced.
Eldar for example.
Bs5 basic, ap4 easily, Assault 3 or 4 for your normal guardians.
Dire avengers would be even better.
Wraithguard would get blast templates and bs7 and be assault 2 weapons.

Necrons....dear god.
Get back up on a 2+, monolith's can only ever be glanced and any weapon hitting them count's as Ap- and loses any abilities.

Marines get st5 to5 at3 ws5...etc etc etc.

Things would get very silly, very quickly.

Poseidal
13-09-2008, 00:22
To address the original statement:

At What Cost Fire Warriors With bs 4 ap 3?
The cost is the Fluff and fun for your opponent.

The former because Tau pulse rifles really aren't that good and Firewarriors do not warrant BS4.

The latter because they will either be overpowered and roll over enemy units in an un-fun manner, or be steamrolled due to being too outnumbered against the troops they are facing.

There is no holy grail points cost; all that you do is skew the balance against certain armies.

Sidstyler
13-09-2008, 00:49
I'de sugguest a point's cost of 35points per man for that at their current crappy stats.


...wait, you mean exactly as they are now, or these suggested changes (BS4 etc.)?

Because if you think 35pts each for a fire warrior in its current form is fair, then you need to check yourself in to the nearest asylum as soon as possible, because that's utter freaking insanity. Space Marines don't even cost that much and you can NOT convince me that a fire warrior is better than a Space Marine.

Edonil
13-09-2008, 01:07
No, with BS4, 30" S5 AP3 Rapid Fire. That's what I was seeing.

sabre4190
13-09-2008, 03:45
no.....just....no.....

sydbridges
13-09-2008, 03:47
Just because you have big muscles doesn't mean you're strong. Have you seen those guys in the Strong Man competitions? They look like truckers rather than body builders. Also, strength doesn't mean how much a model can lift weights, but rather how well it wounds something. I would think that Orks aren't that good at placing their strong swings, where as Kroot have S4 because their muscles are well tuned and able to do quick, accurate jabs (right?). Imagine a big bar fighter vs. special forces soldier.

Also to remember, Orks are funky (or is that fungi?), so their muscles aren't exactly of same type as ours. They might need more muscle mass to reach our levels.

I would've thought weapon skill represented skill at physical combat, whereas strength would just be strength. Certainly, someone with WS 1 S 8 hits much less frequently than someone with WS 8 S 1...

The Orks are funky point is a good one, though, although given that they're genetically engineered killing machines, you'd think the engineers wouldn't have given them space-inefficient muscles. Maybe they didn't worry about it too much, mostly wanting to encode the instructions on how to paint trukks red to get more speed.

kdh88
13-09-2008, 08:10
As for weapon upgrades for fire warrior squads, I think gun drones should be their "HW" platforms. Replace TL pulse carbines with a burst cannon (note, not TL) for Xpts.; missile pod for Xpts.; plasma rifle for Xpts.; etc. Would give FW units some versatility and make them able to tackle various problems. Tanks? 2 Fusion Blasters. MEQ? 2 Plasma Rifles. Hordes? Flamers or Burst Cannons. Need overall fire support? 2 Missile Pods. There's a whole world of posibilities, and BS2 would not make them too powerful.

This would be a great addition. The only potential problem I see is replicating the Eldar weapons platforms, but that would probably just reinforce the whole Eldar genetic engineering angle. Even if you didn't want to go the heavy weapons route, you could at least have a drone that carried a Seeker missile (which are IMO underrepresented in the army compared to the fluff; these things should be everywhere). The other option would be to let the Huamn Auxiliary carry them (seriously, why would you ever want to field IG without heavy/special weapons?)

While AP3 Pulse Rifles and BS4 Fire Warriors are a bit silly, I could see BS4 on Pathfinders or maybe a "Fire Warrior Veterans" Elite choice. Allowing a couple of Fire Warriors, or maybe just the Shas'ui, to be equipped with Rail Rifles for +whatever wouldn't be a bad idea either, although if the above idea were implemented, it wouldn't really be needed.

The one thing about the Tau that has never made sense to me is the Shas'vre upgrade. Sure it's cheap, but what's the point? And why are more experienced Tau better in CC?

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 09:03
"The bolter is better because it's louder and makes a bigger mess!"
Not to forget that aren't the pulse shots in near plasma state. So they're almost plasma guns.

But I think that they merely have greater potential at wounding something via accuracy and plasma shot piercing stuff (in fluff even lasguns pierce power armour). Remember, more armour save rolls you have to make (3+ to wound T4, 2+ to wound T3) the greater chance there is to fail those rolls.

I do think that by fluff a bolter should cause more damage. I mean, a pulse shot is an energy bolt that would just pass right through you (deadly shot), but have you seen what a mere 12.7mm (.50 cal) slug does to things? Let alone 19mm, mass-reactive high explosive? Remember the scene from Saving Private Ryan when the German 20mm gun shoots that one guy planting the sticky bomb on the tank? It was just gore and pieces of clothing. Bolters are worse as they pierce you armour and detonate inside you via delaying the detonation.


I would've thought weapon skill represented skill at physical combat, whereas strength would just be strength. Certainly, someone with WS 1 S 8 hits much less frequently than someone with WS 8 S 1...
Yes, it does, but there's a difference in where you hit. WS just means that when you two are locked in combat that you can bring a swing home without him blocking you. But just because you hit doesn't mean you do damage. There's a difference with if you put that knife into the other guy's shoulder or his throat or liver. Etc. WS doesn't mean how much you do damage, merely that if you hit or not. You still have to wound the target.


The Orks are funky point is a good one, though, although given that they're genetically engineered killing machines, you'd think the engineers wouldn't have given them space-inefficient muscles. Maybe they didn't worry about it too much, mostly wanting to encode the instructions on how to paint trukks red to get more speed.
Think of an AK. There probably isn't a gun in the world that didn't do something better than the AK, but those guns don't have 90 million copies around the world. Just like the AK, the Orks have survived the test of time and are still very much alive and kicking. Tighter packed muscles would probably reduce some other Ork ability (maybe their regeneration, or something like that).

No point in fixing something that ain't broken. I wouldn't start to question the Old Ones on creature designing. They've probably done all the math.