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wolftime
10-09-2008, 22:44
Seriously! Not long ago everyone and his flesh hound had a daemon army and they were ripping things apart. But now it's all gone quiet.

Have people figured out how to beat daemon armies now?
There seem to be loads on eBay now. Does the army suck?

Reinnon
10-09-2008, 22:51
Daemons in 40K are not like Daemons in fantasy - they are not that competitive of an army due to the randomness and other factors.

Doesn't bother me though, i quite enjoy the army.

Culven
10-09-2008, 22:53
I would assume it has to do with the "Flavour of the Month" syndrome. A new army comes out, and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Then another comes out and most people sell their last new army and go for the new new army.

Mouldsta
10-09-2008, 22:58
Yup, current flavour of the month is marines and orks. Followed next month by more marines. Possibly followed by marines of a different flavour.

MrGiggles
10-09-2008, 23:02
Yep, you're going to have a certain amount of folks always chasing the latest army book. I know I was able to pick some Orks up cheap a few months after the new book came out.

I think folks have started to figure out how to deal with Demons, to an extent. The other half of things is that honestly, not everyone is a gambler in 40K. The potential for literally half the army to be 'stuck' in reserve without being guaranteed to come out for a few turns probably put some folks off.

Realistically though, if I wasn't already working on Orks or I was looking for a dual role army to do both Fantasy and 40K with, I'd definitely look toward demons. The rules are just fun and there are some pretty nice models.

Adra
10-09-2008, 23:18
Yeah they are still out there but a new release always creates an overabundance of said release then things go quiet again and things level off. Thats just how it is.

Kahadras
10-09-2008, 23:22
At the end of the day daemons suffered from the 'let's fix it' response from GW. I must say that I played against quite a few daemonbomb armies back in the days of the old Chaos codex and I can't say that I'm not glad to see the back of them. It's just a shame that GW went overboard when hitting them with the nerf bat.

Kahadras

senorcardgage
10-09-2008, 23:50
At the end of the day daemons suffered from the 'let's fix it' response from GW. I must say that I played against quite a few daemonbomb armies back in the days of the old Chaos codex and I can't say that I'm not glad to see the back of them. It's just a shame that GW went overboard when hitting them with the nerf bat.

Kahadras

I also played against demon bomb armies and believe me, they weren't fun.

That said, I don't think GW went over-board with nerfing them. They stll have very competitive builds and are quite strong if you ask me!

Reaver83
10-09-2008, 23:56
Well in my local are apart from myself no one started deamons (I already had some lying around from 3.5 Chaos dex.) I'm still painting them so only played 5 or so games.

For fantasy though I've seen a couple which do really well.

Vedar
10-09-2008, 23:59
Yes, The the flavor of the month is now Marines. Once the coolness factor wore off people started to see they are kind of a hard army to play. Luck is a big factor in playing daemons. You only have a 2/3 chance at having the half you want start the game then the rest DS. If want to DS close you run the risk of destroying your unit (I've lost Soul Grinders and Daemon princes this way) or DS far away and be safe but now you are going to get blasted as you try to close to CC and you only have 5+ saves.

I you want to have fun and have a random game Daemons are fun, If you want to win every game and stomp newbs into dust look elsewhere.

zoodog
11-09-2008, 00:03
I would have to agree that they ended up being both harder to play and more random than many people first thought. The release of 5th ed proper also reduced in power a couple things like rending and fearlessness.

Somnicide
11-09-2008, 00:29
Daemons seem to be doing fine. Best general at the Vegas GT was a Daemon player, there were 3 of us on the top 5 tables for game 5.

Actually, Ron (another daemon player) and I had this discussion over our game. Daemons are a great army as long as you have the temperament for it. You have to be willing to gamble and take risks, you have to have a plan, and you have to be able to think on your feet.

cailus
11-09-2008, 00:31
They never took off at my local club.

The interest in 40K at our club is in decline, partially due to player's own ambivalence and due to the atrociously bad 5th edition ruleset.

Looking at the last several codex releases, the number of new armies started and actually gamed with have been as follows:

Dark Angels - 2 new armies
Chaos Space Marines - 3 new armies
Eldar - 1 new army
Orks - 0 new armies
Daemons - 0 new armies

There have also been 2-3 new Space Marine armies introduced to the club and that's kinda it.

In the last year non-Marine armies have dwindled as vets move on to Flames of War or Fantasy as well as card games ala Descent.

Master Jeridian
11-09-2008, 00:44
I find it hard to consider them an army, both from a fluff perspective (daemon hordes don't just 'appear' conveniently next to an advancing army without someone summoning them) and from a cynical business perspective (GW realised they could flog more Daemon models by taking the Fantasy Army Book release and cobbling together a 40k book, essentially culling Daemons from the Chaos SM book was genius to force Daemon owners to buy a whole armies worth).

As such I keep forgetting they are now a fully-fledged army.


Before they where released I expected them to be a one-trick pony (I Deep Strike on your army, and try to assault ASAP, regardless of mission or opposing army)- and like many one-trick ponies (Drop Troop IG, Drop Pod Marines, etc) the novelty wears off very quickly. I wasn't disappointed.
And I'm not just talking about the opponents, it wears off for many of the owners. I couldn't play my IG as pure Drop Troop Plasma Spam or my Marines as a Drop Pod force every game as it gets boring.

Add in what others have said- all-Deep Striker armies rely a lot on luck and so a quite random for the person fielding them, but become highly predictable to the opponent, who knows your going to try to isolate his units and get into assault ASAP. So sits in a little castle and guns them down.

airmang
11-09-2008, 01:01
Daemons seem to be doing fine. Best general at the Vegas GT was a Daemon player, there were 3 of us on the top 5 tables for game 5.

Actually, Ron (another daemon player) and I had this discussion over our game. Daemons are a great army as long as you have the temperament for it. You have to be willing to gamble and take risks, you have to have a plan, and you have to be able to think on your feet.

i agree wholeheartedly with somnicide. they take a certain mindset to play. they really do keep you on your toes. i really like the army, and have played it since the codex came out, with a couple of breaks to finish my deff wing army. i really like their versatility though. everyone thinks of them as a purely CC army, and really they can be tailored to do just about anything.

i also agree that many people probably started them because of the flavor of the month idea, some just for the new models, and those that already had alot of daemons already. but they do take some getting used to. especially in 5th with more missions geared to objective takeing. you can't just DS and try to get to CC, you've got to really plan ahead, and since the army is very random, you've got to have some contingency plans!

and i'm glad to hear how well somnicide and redrivertears has done with them.

Kulgur
11-09-2008, 02:13
Damnit I'm already playing Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tau, Witch Hunters, Orks are up for painting. There's only so many hours in the week that I can play :P

Peoples Champ
11-09-2008, 02:51
Last tournament I played in my Daemons got 2nd out of 30. I am really enjoying them. The random element and the ability to think on your feet is loads of fun.

Saying that there seem to be few playing them here. At the NZ GT in two weeks time out of a field of 66 there are only 3 daemon armies entered. One of the more interesting stats is that there are no Tau at all :wtf:.

TimLeeson
11-09-2008, 02:53
Nope. They are still my main army,always will be. I waited 7 years for them to get a codex, so I definitly wont be giving them up easily. Hell, if they release plastic horrors ill be expanding my 1500pt force to apocalypse scale, iv also got ideas for a massive tzeentchian daemon-engine.

Starchild
11-09-2008, 03:25
Honestly, I think a lack of Daemon players has a lot to do with family influence.

Of all the armies in 40k (or Fantasy for that matter), Daemons are the least acceptable. The head(s) of a religious household would go nuts about their child having an army of Daemons. In fact, said head(s) probably ban 40k from the home altogether, especially if they see Daemons for sale at a local shop.

I can justify to women the redeeming features of Eldar: aesthetically appealing forms, style drawn from the ancient world, war-as-art, etc. But Daemons? No, I think most women would find the concept of a Daemon army repugnant. :(

Vineas
11-09-2008, 03:55
Daemons are great fun. It's a shame more people are losing sight of the "fun" side of 40k. It CAN be a competitive GT army with the right person but it won't be easy.

Lots of randomness in the daemon army but when everything clicks into place it really is a very powerful army, I'd say more so than anything Chaos or the new SM can put out.

I'm building toward an "irresistable force" Nurgle army for 40k. After 20 kills an Epi army is nigh on impossible to shift/wipeout.

zanotam
11-09-2008, 04:21
Just a little thing to point out, the new 5th edition rule book justifies deamon armies in it's fluff section.

==Me==
11-09-2008, 05:15
New army syndrome wears off and people move to the next flavor of the month. That's the way of things.

I see Daemons as similar to WH/DH nowadays. A unique army with lots of expensive metal that has a steeper learning curve than most. I have some Daemons and I'll keep building up the army, but the cost of all that metal is off-putting to say the least. Plastic Plaguebearers and Horrors will help, as will the DP, but Fiends and Bloodcrushers are just killing ==Me== :p

blackroyal
11-09-2008, 05:24
I'm building toward an "irresistable force" Nurgle army for 40k. After 20 kills an Epi army is nigh on impossible to shift/wipeout.
Since the codex came out one of our local players has been using this army as his main force. It is not all that fun to face. We have plenty of stories where 700+ points fails to kill 30. This of course happens turn 5 right before the game ends.

It is hard enough to kill plaguebearers when they have gone to ground. They do not need "Epi" to give them 3+ FNP.

I am fully convinced that the more competitive Daemon armies use some Nurgle troops to secure their objectives. I know just how hard they are to kill via shooting. Assaulting them doesn't work all that well either because they are T5.

druchii
11-09-2008, 06:03
I find it hard to consider them an army, both from a fluff perspective (daemon hordes don't just 'appear' conveniently next to an advancing army without someone summoning them) and from a cynical business perspective (GW realised they could flog more Daemon models by taking the Fantasy Army Book release and cobbling together a 40k book, essentially culling Daemons from the Chaos SM book was genius to force Daemon owners to buy a whole armies worth).

As such I keep forgetting they are now a fully-fledged army.


Before they where released I expected them to be a one-trick pony (I Deep Strike on your army, and try to assault ASAP, regardless of mission or opposing army)- and like many one-trick ponies (Drop Troop IG, Drop Pod Marines, etc) the novelty wears off very quickly. I wasn't disappointed.
And I'm not just talking about the opponents, it wears off for many of the owners. I couldn't play my IG as pure Drop Troop Plasma Spam or my Marines as a Drop Pod force every game as it gets boring.

Add in what others have said- all-Deep Striker armies rely a lot on luck and so a quite random for the person fielding them, but become highly predictable to the opponent, who knows your going to try to isolate his units and get into assault ASAP. So sits in a little castle and guns them down.


That's a curious way to look at it, but I think flawed.

Demons are in no way a "one trick pony" army.

Tzeentch favors heavy shooting (which sorta breaks the whole-er-assault you as quick as possible farce), while nurgle is quite resilient, but not quick enough to catch much of anything.

So, like most assault armies it comes down to which units to tie up with which units, and which units to move into the thick of it. Compound this with the fact that everything deep strikes, well, you've got an army that will spawn an infinite number of "challenges".

I think people really realized how differently the demons play (read: tough) and how they're not all that easy to win with. Unlike orks we aren't able to toss down tons of cheap troops that can waltz across the board. Unlike the eldar we don't have units that are great at shooting AND combat (while being relatively cheap too!). Unlike marines most of our units aren't dangerous to EVERYTHING on the board.

Of the 30+ people in my club I'm the only one that's actually fielded a demon army (although we have as many as TWO other players considering it!) and everyone I've talked to actually enjoys playing them! I think the idea of total randomness turns alot of people off of demons (that's ok with me!) and the dire specialization of their units makes people wary of investing alot of money.

I for one, will be making a second 2000pt army of nurgle and tzeentch stuff to accompany my pink-flavored slaanesh.

d

Brucopeloso
11-09-2008, 09:25
Honestly, I think a lack of Daemon players has a lot to do with family influence.

Of all the armies in 40k (or Fantasy for that matter), Daemons are the least acceptable. The head(s) of a religious household would go nuts about their child having an army of Daemons. In fact, said head(s) probably ban 40k from the home altogether, especially if they see Daemons for sale at a local shop.

I can justify to women the redeeming features of Eldar: aesthetically appealing forms, style drawn from the ancient world, war-as-art, etc. But Daemons? No, I think most women would find the concept of a Daemon army repugnant. :(

Take it easy is just a game!
Daemons are just toy soldiers with no religious implications whatsoever........ Plus once a lady accepts her man spends some time and money on toy soldier I don't think she will even be interested in which type of toy soldier it is. is

Redrivertears
11-09-2008, 10:46
Heya,

I'm the only one in my gaming group who plays Daemons. I kind of like that though, makes my army unique :)

Like others already mentioned, there's a few things that keep them from being popular. I think the first thing is the price tag. Daemon armies are not cheap. They rely a lot on their synergy between units, and most of these units consists of expensive metal models. There's some plastics, but you can't get by relying on those alone.

Additionally, there's what I call "the dark eldar" effect. While Daemons might look cool to a lot of people, they're very difficult to play. A lot of people will start them, get wiped off the table and think they are weak because of the high learning curve. And so they abandon the army again. They're only few people that stick with it and learn how to master the army.

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents,

-Redrivertears-

Brucopeloso
11-09-2008, 11:12
Heya,

I'm the only one in my gaming group who plays Daemons. I kind of like that though, makes my army unique :)

Like others already mentioned, there's a few things that keep them from being popular. I think the first thing is the price tag. Daemon armies are not cheap. They rely a lot on their synergy between units, and most of these units consists of expensive metal models. There's some plastics, but you can't get by relying on those alone.

Additionally, there's what I call "the dark eldar" effect. While Daemons might look cool to a lot of people, they're very difficult to play. A lot of people will start them, get wiped off the table and think they are weak because of the high learning curve. And so they abandon the army again. They're only few people that stick with it and learn how to master the army.

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents,

-Redrivertears-

Agree with you
A daemon army is difficoult to master and quite expensive.
I have one just because I had a lot of daemons from CSM 3.5 and fantasy.

Having said that Chaos Daemons is quite fun and rewarding to play with and allows for a lot of different buildups.

From the fluff point of view at the beginning I was appalled at the idea of having daemons from conflicting powers in the same army but it kind of makes sense if you think in terms of warp rifts: you are a bloodletter, you get caught with your (7) mates in a warp rift and find yourself in the material universe. You know that your time there is limited and you have a choice between slaughtering some juicy humans (eldar, orks, whatever) or the pack of daemonettes you fight every day and twice on sundays, which one would you choose? I would atack the humans (eldar, orks, whatever) and then take care of the daemonettes later. It's not cooperating with the hated enemy, it's just good priority management. ;)

Adra
11-09-2008, 11:26
People who dont play deamons should be glad when they see them. they are great fun to play against.

MasterDecoy
11-09-2008, 11:37
I dont think they work terribly well at low points games either (suffer from necron syndrome, too higher basic troop cost)

Ive started buying some for my girlfriend to play with becouse she likes the look of them. But when that gets finnished is anybodys guess.

ArtificerArmour
11-09-2008, 11:45
I actually love daemons. They so steep to learn with. The first game I played I utterly wiped out an army, the second I drew (but could have won if I remembered daemons had eternal warrior and he blissgived my nurglings), and the last two I lost. It's one of those things. But when daemons work, boy, do they work!

Brother Loki
11-09-2008, 12:20
i've never been a big fan of the protrayal of daemons in 40k. I don't like the regimented groups (bloodthirsters, bloodletters, fleshhounds etc etc) of similar daemons. I prefer the idea of daemons as individual alien intelligences that can possess living hosts - like the daemonhost Cherubael in the Eisenhorn trilogy (or as described in codex daemonhunters). I like the daemon as the unseen force which makes uncanny things happen - milk sours, ice forms on the windows, walls bleed, psykers go insane and so on, not as something as simple as a big red angry beastman.

So basically, I don't see myself as likely to play daemons as I simply don't like the army concept that much.

samiens
11-09-2008, 12:45
I don't think the daemon book is a one trick pony but I find individual daemon armies tend to be (I tried dropping several units of bloodcrushers- its like having a load of daemon princes really close to the enemy- and not easy to shift) Basically, you need a plan and good sense to deal with the times when it goes wrong.

The fact is that i stopped playing with them as I didn't find them fun to play- largely because I found very little tactical about the force I put out- and I'm a tournament player at heart. Its an army for risk takers and those that don't mind losing 1 in 6 games or so when the randomeness is too hard to compensate. Now, I'm not a big risk taker and strive towards consistency- that said their a great fluff army, or army for fun games (don't get me wrong they are very competitive- just not in a way I like to use) but I think they're a second or third army for many competitive players- and we know how hard it is to get army 1 or 2 finished (or bought nowadays) so I think its understandable that they've fallen by the wayside a bit. Better financial times would help them no end I think!

Bloodknight
11-09-2008, 13:18
Honestly, I think a lack of Daemon players has a lot to do with family influence.

Of all the armies in 40k (or Fantasy for that matter), Daemons are the least acceptable. The head(s) of a religious household would go nuts about their child having an army of Daemons. In fact, said head(s) probably ban 40k from the home altogether, especially if they see Daemons for sale at a local shop.

I can justify to women the redeeming features of Eldar: aesthetically appealing forms, style drawn from the ancient world, war-as-art, etc. But Daemons? No, I think most women would find the concept of a Daemon army repugnant. :(

Is that still a problem today?
I mean, the D&D rage in the 80s is gone, and people should by now have realized that you cannot, in fact, summon daemons with game rules and pieces.

I still wonder how people could be stupid enough to believe in magic and daemons and say stuff about game rules without being tongue in cheek.
That said, I know exactly two religious people, and they aren't Christian. Christianity or religious beliefs (except agnosticism, I know quite a few agnostics) in general aren't that en vogue with educated people anymore, seemingly.

samiens
11-09-2008, 13:26
I don't think that's true about Christians- but I think its probably fair to say that more educated people- Christian or otherwise- find it unlikely that there is any harm in playing an army of tiny daemons! I'm a Christian- and I'm upset that they took away the naked sexy daemons and replaced them with crap... I'm going to Hell now aren't I?

Bloodknight
11-09-2008, 13:42
I was just talking about the people I know, and religion is pretty dead around here. I used to go to church as a kid, but lost my faith somewhere ;).

I cannot remember such an anti-RPG rage in Europe, though, but I am still under 30. Somebody around 40 might know better.

ShadRS
11-09-2008, 13:46
I'm the only person at my local store that plays Daemons, and I like it that way! Nice to be unique. I think what scared a lot of people off is the learning curve. You have to do a lot of planning ahead of time ("How will this Daemon Prince work in conjunction with those Bloodletters" or how to divy up waves) and be prepared for things to go spectacularly bad because of a few simple dice rolls. The daemon army is all about planning and having contingencies. There is a randomness to it (and I've lost games because of it) but an experienced player can plan for it and work around it.
Its this challenging aspect that has kept me playing. Well that and the bug eyed look my opponent get when I drop two Soulgrinders right next to an objective.

Reinnon
11-09-2008, 13:46
Lets keep religion out of this debate, as i seriously doubt it has any large scale impact on what 40K armies are used.

Plus, it could lead to the P+R forum.

Templar Ben
11-09-2008, 14:01
I was just talking about the people I know, and religion is pretty dead around here. I used to go to church as a kid, but lost my faith somewhere ;).

Look under the couch. I find most lost items there.


I cannot remember such an anti-RPG rage in Europe, though, but I am still under 30. Somebody around 40 might know better.

I am a bit older than you and grew up in the Deep South. Yeah, it was something else overhere.


People who dont play deamons should be glad when they see them. they are great fun to play against.

They are fun to play against. I prefer playing against them with IG, DH, or my BT.

Othiem
11-09-2008, 15:25
I don't think that's true about Christians- but I think its probably fair to say that more educated people- Christian or otherwise- find it unlikely that there is any harm in playing an army of tiny daemons! I'm a Christian- and I'm upset that they took away the naked sexy daemons and replaced them with crap... I'm going to Hell now aren't I?

Nope, it's true. Went to a Christian middle school and not in the south. Any of us they caught playing Magic:TG were sent to extra faith counseling about out immortal souls. At least my friends Christian father was a more reasonable man, his kids could play, but were not allowed to use any black cards....

BrianC
11-09-2008, 16:20
Since the codex came out one of our local players has been using this army as his main force. It is not all that fun to face. We have plenty of stories where 700+ points fails to kill 30. This of course happens turn 5 right before the game ends.

It is hard enough to kill plaguebearers when they have gone to ground. They do not need "Epi" to give them 3+ FNP.

I am fully convinced that the more competitive Daemon armies use some Nurgle troops to secure their objectives. I know just how hard they are to kill via shooting. Assaulting them doesn't work all that well either because they are T5.Having played a mix of Khorne and Nurgle a few times I'm not convinced that the Plague Bearers can actually hold an objective against any army with decent strength or template attacks or one that is good under assault. Due to the low I and lack of ranged attacks you first get picked off at a distance then you lose too many in the initial assault before you can strike back. They just don't suit leaving on an objective for any length of time and they are too slow to swoop in from safety. May be if they where a little cheaper you could afford to buy enough of them to make them last.

It doesn't help with the risks of deep striking, I lost just under half my army due to some bad dice roles and the terrain layout (I still managed to make a game of it though and would have won if we ended on turn 5 rather than the rolled for 6th turn). Now I mostly invest in at one icon per wave so that I can get my more expensive units in safely, or at least give them a second shot even though its a pricey option.

Nurglings have their place contesting objectives and I really like Ku'Gath, he is very hard to shift and adds a much needed ranged attack. Skulltaker in a chariot is also a bit of a bargain as the extra two wounds, one attack, toughness and strength for 20 points really help make the most of him.

I'm convinced that the most effective combination is deep striking Horrors or Flamers backed up with Bloodletters. Park the Bloodletters behind the deep striking Daemons of Tzeentch so they get a 4+ cover and let the others soften up the target before swooping in to assault with the Bloodletters that turn or next turn. Even if you have to wait to assault your opponent has to decide between two units with 4+ or 4++ saves and either face another round of shooting or risk getting assaulted at I5.

I'm really pleased with how the army plays, its fun to play with and against, it just needs a bit of a rejig to make it more competitive. Its also a lot of fun to model with some of the best units not having any models available.

I kinda like how there aren't too many of the armies about, makes it stand out more; its also nice to not have to play another MEQ army.

grickherder
11-09-2008, 17:09
I think it's a result of GW choosing to not have compatibility with chaos forces. I think if there was some sort of relationship between C:CSM and C:D, you'd see more CSM players buying some for their CSM army and then expanding it from there. People who like the Inquisition stuff usually start that way.

It was a perfect opportunity for an upsell by the GW employees to all the chaos players, but GW chose to pass it by. It was bizarre actually.

Emeraldw
11-09-2008, 18:51
I think it's a result of GW choosing to not have compatibility with chaos forces. I think if there was some sort of relationship between C:CSM and C:D, you'd see more CSM players buying some for their CSM army and then expanding it from there. People who like the Inquisition stuff usually start that way.

It was a perfect opportunity for an upsell by the GW employees to all the chaos players, but GW chose to pass it by. It was bizarre actually.

I admit it would be kind of cool to mix some Marines into my daemon army, but it is primarily a daemon army as I like the idea of command the legions of the chaos gods themselves.

I don't think Daemons were all that popular with 40k to begin with. In Fantasy there were already daemon players from the Old "storm of Chaos" that used a pure daemon army. You could also do it with the 6th horde book but not really quite as well.

In fantasy they are considered almost overpowering. In 40k it doesn't seem like it. I run 4 MC's and a soul grinder with my troops and I can take Black Templar's alright but against IG I get shot to high heaven before I can actually get in there.

It's an odd army to be sure.

Neftus
11-09-2008, 19:52
Nope, it's true. Went to a Christian middle school and not in the south. Any of us they caught playing Magic:TG were sent to extra faith counseling about out immortal souls. At least my friends Christian father was a more reasonable man, his kids could play, but were not allowed to use any black cards....

Christian schools tend to be the worst with this because all it takes is one insane mother to cause complete pandemonium and send the entire faculty into a puritanical witch hunt; One which cannot be controlled because becoming a teacher means your soul belongs to little Jimmy’s cracked-out soccer mom whose fat, rich husband is an important school benefactor.

With the exception of such middle-class American compost, most Christians aren’t concerned with sci-fi, fictional daemons.

Now, if you want to see a culture that really freaks out over daemonic soldiers, talk to anyone who has had a family in Indonesia, Cambodia, India or any other similar country in that part of Asia. A vast majority of people down there believe that demon spirits similar to 40k daemons exist and can manifest out of no where and beat the hell out of you. If some people in Cambodia knew that I owned a pretend army of evil, toy demons they would probably shun me completely (or kill me if something went wrong while I was there.)

Starchild
11-09-2008, 20:09
Now, if you want to see a culture that really freaks out over daemonic soldiers, talk to anyone who has had a family in Indonesia, Cambodia, India or any other similar country in that part of Asia. A vast majority of people down there believe that demon spirits similar to 40k daemons exist and can manifest out of no where and beat the hell out of you. If some people in Cambodia knew that I owned a pretend army of evil, toy demons they would probably shun me completely (or kill me if something went wrong while I was there.)

True enough. The snarling warrior statues in some Buddhist shrines are supposed to scare daemons away (much like the gargoyles on cathedrals). Another interesting point is that the Bible practically *insists* that daemons are real. For example, Deuteronomy 18, which condemns witchcraft and magic, or when Jesus casts a horde of daemons out of a man and into a herd of swine, after they say "We are Legion."

Anyway, back on topic. I think the Daemon army is a cool concept. It's very archetypal, with each Chaos Power representing the shadow form of the King, Warrior, Magician, or Lover. And yes, randomness is an integral part of the army, but such is the nature of Chaos. It will definitely be my next army, whenever I can afford it. :skull:

SwordJon
11-09-2008, 20:19
My buddy is going to be bringing 72+ plaguebearers, epidemius, and four monstrous creatures of the nurgle variety to 'ard boyz. (and other stuff if he can fit it in...)

I'm just gonna put it on record that I think he's gonna do fairly well.

Vineas
11-09-2008, 23:06
Plaguebearers shrug off non-ap1 and 2 weapons like a bison shrugs off a common house fly but trust me, termie squads wreck them.

I laugh whenever a dev squad wastes it's HB's and ML's on my plaguebearers but i utterly cringe when I get assaulted by termies. It's messy and ugly and always leads to easy kp's/objective taking.

Devil Tree
12-09-2008, 01:50
I personally love the Demons Codex. Right now I’m using it to make a Hrud army. I already converted a bunch of warriors to count as horrors. I planning on adding more warriors as demonettes, heavy weapons troops as flamers and big mutant Hrud as demon princes.

Deadboytat2
12-09-2008, 06:50
I think people really realized how differently the demons play (read: tough) and how they're not all that easy to win with. Unlike orks we aren't able to toss down tons of cheap troops that can waltz across the board. Unlike the eldar we don't have units that are great at shooting AND combat (while being relatively cheap too!). Unlike marines most of our units aren't dangerous to EVERYTHING on the board.




d




hey now i play orks, marines and eldar. what are you trying to say =P

Brucopeloso
12-09-2008, 09:12
Plaguebearers shrug off non-ap1 and 2 weapons like a bison shrugs off a common house fly but trust me, termie squads wreck them.

I laugh whenever a dev squad wastes it's HB's and ML's on my plaguebearers but i utterly cringe when I get assaulted by termies. It's messy and ugly and always leads to easy kp's/objective taking.

Flamers (of tzeentch) are the perfect solution for any terminator problem :D

Whitehorn
12-09-2008, 09:45
Daemons in 40K are not like Daemons in fantasy - they are not that competitive of an army due to the randomness and other factors.

Doesn't bother me though, i quite enjoy the army.

They are more than competitive, it just seems a lot of people are set in their ways of 'set up and go' battles. Daemons have a unique approach to deployment and I fear a lot of the players who come to realise this (after) buying a ton of stuff) may be a bit disgruntled by it.

My club has 3/4 daemon players for 40k and 2 for fantasy. They're more represented than over half the other choices.

Brucopeloso
12-09-2008, 11:43
I think chaos daemons make a very nice "secondary army" as they play very differently from other more "mainstream" army.

I think the launch of the plastic daemon prince, plastic plaguebearers and plastic horrors will see an increase in daemon armies.

Surgency
12-09-2008, 16:05
Daemons absolutely CRUSHED the one army "designed" to counter them... My Grey Knights just can't seem to win against Daemons anymore, no matter how I rebuild it :(

Ubermensch Commander
12-09-2008, 16:29
I just love the idea of Bloodcrushers. Mwahah Khornate Juggernauts...en masse!
While I would likely never play it as it is Chaos filth and I just dont dig the idea behind following Chaos, it is great fun to play against and the visuals are great.

Oh back to OP, Reasons for "decline"/lots of armies on Ebay: flavor of month syndrome, many players might have found they do not like the randomness of the army, it could even be that many Chaos Space Marine players thought "ok, fine GW, I will take my few squads of Daemons and try an army of them" then found that they didn't enjoy the play style(as it differs greatly from either the old Daemonbomb armies or mixed daemon-chaos marine forces) and are now trying to get back some money.
the only Daemon player at the shop i frequent loves them....but then again he likes to say "Chaos is your master!"...filthy heretic! hahahha

BrianC
12-09-2008, 16:29
Daemons absolutely CRUSHED the one army "designed" to counter them... My Grey Knights just can't seem to win against Daemons anymore, no matter how I rebuild it :(I take it you've tried running an Inquisitor with two Mystics and using the free shot delegation? Or are you running a pure GK force? If the Mystic trick is done right its nigh impossible to deep strike close enough to objectives up to 24" apart of each other.

Add in a Hierophant to limit assault range and you stand a reasonable chance of pushing it to three turns before you can close in.

BloodBath
12-09-2008, 18:08
I for one like the Daemon armies for both 40k and Fantasy. I like playing with a mono Khorne army and I agree with most people here about new armies with new rules and models. Its refreshing to see new things and to play them. This will happen with the new Space Marine codex when it comes out I believe. People will move into that army for a bit, then wait for a new army to come out and repeat itself again and again. Its the nature of the game. I like trying out new rules and armies I admit, but I like to have my main armies that I like to call my own also.

bluebugs
12-09-2008, 18:58
I, Ironically are now just getting into deamons. The main reason I started chaos was so I can bring deamons (mainly Tzeentch) and now that the have become their own army, I feel I have to choose between the two. I think I'm going to choose deamons.

Plus I already have like 20 horrors laying around. As well as 5 flamers, a shaggoth model, and plenty of other fantasy monsters and converting opportunities. I'm not buying a damn thing for this army, converted chaos warriors for bloodletters?

Surgency
12-09-2008, 19:05
I take it you've tried running an Inquisitor with two Mystics and using the free shot delegation? Or are you running a pure GK force? If the Mystic trick is done right its nigh impossible to deep strike close enough to objectives up to 24" apart of each other.

Add in a Hierophant to limit assault range and you stand a reasonable chance of pushing it to three turns before you can close in.

maybe I should try that... I've been working on pure GK with different grandmaster builds, different setups, etc... In a single round of combat, my 5 man Termie team was obliterated by a single greater daemon. Was very frustrating...

BrianC
12-09-2008, 20:40
maybe I should try that... I've been working on pure GK with different grandmaster builds, different setups, etc... In a single round of combat, my 5 man Termie team was obliterated by a single greater daemon. Was very frustrating...Which GD was that? Sounds a little unlucky to lose that many termies in a single round. I'd consider bundling a Grimoire with your termies if you've the points, takes a +2 down to a +4 for the hit, assuming its a Bloodthirster, +5 if its not. If you've the points to take sacred incense you'd also have the chance to strike back even if he does wipe out all of your models, just don't let him charge you or it'll not be enough of a modifier for any of the Khorne models.

Most of the GDs rock in Daemons, Ku'Gath is a one man army for example, or Skarbrand will eat pretty much any squad for breakfast during assault, its just a shame that they (rightly) cost so much.

ulric42
12-09-2008, 21:23
in my opinion its largly due to the sheer cost of them. collecting a whole daemonic army is expensive.

also the new codex doesnt help, GW messed up big time with that i think

Brucopeloso
16-09-2008, 11:50
Daemons absolutely CRUSHED the one army "designed" to counter them... My Grey Knights just can't seem to win against Daemons anymore, no matter how I rebuild it :(

The few times I faced daemons with DH I just slaughtered them.
Try to have an inquisitor with psycannon, two mystics, one sage and 3 heavy bolter servitors and another shooty squad (maybe a retributor squad) close by.

The mystics allow the inquisitor and retinue and a nearby squad to shoot any unit deep striking within 4d6" of them. Uber nasty! :D

etancross
16-09-2008, 14:28
I'm something like 28 wins 4 losses and 4 draws with my all Nurgle army (this includes team tournaments and team games) and since i've learned the nuances of the army i've actually only lost one game (which was a team game) to one of the cheapest Tryanid armies i've ever seen (I won’t go into detail because it really gets me angry).

For me whats happened is i've thought about switching to another army because i've had some great success with Daemons but it just really gets to me that I cant shoot but i like the damons and dont really wanna switch.

I know the shooting/not shooting thing may sound silly but the army that REALLY brought me into my own in 40k that I really felt I understood and grew with was the Tau. Because of a few problems and issues I had I put a self-imposed exile on myself so I don’t play them anymore but have tried several other armies and once I started playing Daemons I got that feeling back that I connect with the army and things were good in 40k again.

Lately i've just had thoughts of quitting 40k and fantasy (Warhammer in general) and just walking away, our hobby is a lot cheaper than others and i've had a good time playing but i'm starting to look at how much money i've put into it.

Nowafter 2 – 3 years i'm still a horrible, HORRIABLE painter, and models I really like (ex. Epidemis and my Nurgle daemon prince) I don’t really want to paint because I know I can’t paint and I don’t want them to look like crap and then in the same breath I do at times feel bad about having an army with one or two things painted and everything else being “right out of the box silver and grey”.

I really do like warhammer but I guess i'm just starting to wonder where things are headed, or where they will go…. I'm hoping to start paintball late this year or early next (a few guys in my local shop play) and i'm really wondering if I want to keep going in warhammer; so most days I get off work and think “Should I just head home or up to the local G-dub”? Lately i've been going home a lot more often

And that’s where I am now..... more than what was asked i know, but was just on my mind.

Eryx_UK
16-09-2008, 14:53
We've only had one person at my club play Chaos Daemons in 40K. During the last few days of 4th ed he did really well with them, but the transition to 5th had him put them away. From what I saw, the Daemons army relied heavily on its big nasties to tear units apart, but with 5th needing more troop choices his ability to field the big nasties was greatly reduced and his lesser deamons killed very easily. I think Daemons went from being rather good to below average by the change in editions.

kendaop
16-09-2008, 15:13
I love playing my nurgle army. It is a little more difficult to play; it took me about a week to master it (as opposed to about 1 day with every other army). The deep striking really makes it interesting, and more challenging. It's definitely not all about getting into cc asap. I played my nurgle in 'ard boyz (I tied for first) and there were some interesting lessons to be learned:

1) Take lots of icons. They may be 25 points....but so are powerfists. Icons are just as useful to daemons as any equipment any other army might take.
2) Objective based missions, against ork players suck. When an entire half of the table is covered in greenskins, there's nowhere to land! I had to DS 12-18 inches away from the objectives and fight my way forward through about 90 orks....not fun. I finally managed to contest a couple objectives on the last turn and I was helped out by my opponent's mistake of having his lootas on two objectives instead of shoota boyz. However, once you get 10 kills, plaguebearers kick the crap out of orkz.
3) Ku'Gath may be 300 points....but that's 300 points that your opponent is NEVER going to kill. He also provides some early kills to get your tally up.

Some people say daemons are risky (they are at times), but there are ways to reduce that risk. Lots of icons, it's a no-brainer. Also, don't try to land too close to any kind of impassable terrain (including models). You don't have to land ON an objective when you can land 12" away from it and run there in one turn. Honestly, I've never lost more than one unit per game to mishaps. I don't think I lost a single one during the 'ard boyz tournament, and there was LOTS of stuff on the table to watch out for. I think a lot of people just never got the hang of how to play them.