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View Full Version : Were the Daemon Hunter and Witch Hunter codexes a mistake for G.W.



Luckywallace
12-09-2008, 19:25
Well this could open a can of worms (or just get a lot of indifferance, whichever...) but this is something I cannot help think about lately.

Before I get going I want to make the distinction between G.W. (the company) and the "Fanbase" (us). I think that the D.H. and W.H. codex books were great for the fanbase, I have a Sisters of Battle army that I love and have used ever since the Witch Hunter book came out (well, from before that to be honest, but it became a real army to be feared with the codex).

Everything about the Daemon Hunter and Witch Hunter books seems to be anathema to G.W.'s current direction and focus.

G.W. seem to want to focus on armies very much in isolation (splitting of Chaos Daemons from Chaos Space Marines is the best example), giving each army a distinctive list, flavour and range of models, supported by core plastic troops (and the number of plastics you get correlates roughly to your armies popularity).

The DaemonHunter and Witch Hunter books are very different. Not only are they made up of metal models (including their core troops), they also "borrow" entries from other lists (Stormtroopers) and the troops in the armies are from an ecclectic mix of differant sources (for example, the Witch Hunter book has Inquisitors, Assassins, Sisters of Battle, Ecclesiarchy).
While it is reasonable for such forces to mix together it is just as reasonable for Space Marines to be fighting alongside Imperial Guard, yet in G.W.'s design philosophy they are seperate, distinct armies, only allied in APOCALYPSE.

On top of this, the armies can, or rather are *designed* to ally with other forces and mix up as allies which is also something G.W. seems to be moving strongly away from (again, except in Apocalypse).

The "problem" G.W. has now is that it has produced these two armies which are very against the grain of the current version of 40k where everything is somewhat neat and tidy when it comes to army composition not ecclectic and mixed up as the Inquisitorial armies can be.
There is no easy "fix" for this at all.

* G.W. could cut out the armies but by having produced the original codexes they have now established fan-bases for them and there would be huge out-cry. While G.W. would no doubt soldier on, many would be disgusted and quite possibly quit the hobby, and others would loose faith in G.W. supporting their armies (unless you're a Marine player).

* G.W. could just leave the codex books as they are but this does not really fix anything, and both books are getting increasingly out of date. Many recent codex books seem to be stepping-up in terms of power (with Orks and Marines very noticeably, the the new Chaos Marines dex is also very competative).

* However, G.W. would be naturally reluctant to bring about the speculated Inquisition "Super Codex"... there is no real gaurantee it would make much money and it woudl require an extensive range of plastic releases to cover all of the basic troop types (I would say at least a Sisters of Battle unit, a Seraphim unit, a Grey Knights unit and a Grey Knights Terminators unit).
The army would still remain very "muddled", in fact it would probably get worse with a mix of Inquisitors/Stormtroopers/Grey Knights/Sisters/Deathwatch.

So... after all that I can only think that G.W. must regret at this point having released the codex books. Sisters of Battle could have remained as a small "niche" army (like Kislevs in WHFB) and Inquisitors have a whole game devoted to them. Note that I am *NOT* saying that I would have wanted this, I love my SOB's and think Grey Knights are awesome, some of the best models G.W. has ever made. But I think I would have "accepted" if these things had remained in the background like so much else in 40k.

I await to see how G.W. will solve the "Inquistorial Problem" it has created for itself...

IJW
12-09-2008, 19:38
* However, G.W. would be naturally reluctant to bring about the speculated Inquisition "Super Codex"... there is no real gaurantee it would make much money and it woudl require an extensive range of plastic releases to cover all of the basic troop types (I would say at least a Sisters of Battle unit, a Seraphim unit, a Grey Knights unit and a Grey Knights Terminators unit).
The army would still remain very "muddled", in fact it would probably get worse with a mix of Inquisitors/Stormtroopers/Grey Knights/Sisters/Deathwatch.
If it's the size and flexibility of the new SM codex I don't see that much problem.

And as far as plastics are concerned, four sprues isn't that unusual for an army that hasn't been updated in so long - look at all the new plastics for Orks that we have or are on the way.

Tags
12-09-2008, 19:42
The inquisition needs more attention, this is true. There must be enough support for them to keep the Inquisitors out there however. And Chaos was defined more by it's Chaos Marines, the demons had a small role. On their Own the demons have much more room to expand. And In a way the demons are Chaos' version of the the Inquisition, a side line faction that has been brought to the fore front.

As for Inquisitors having a whole game devoted to them, well that game seems to be very much on the side lines. Hell, none of the game stores I've been to even bother carrying Inquisitor figures.

Reaver83
12-09-2008, 19:57
I think if they are to become stand alone armies a combined codex is in order with the HQ shifting the 'troop' choices etc

Lord Inquisitor
12-09-2008, 20:06
There isn't a major problem if they want to bring the Inquisition into line with the current codexes. The allies system can simply be scrapped, forcing inquisition players to rely purely on their own forces, or integrate certain basic units (e.g. "guard squad" or "tactical squad") fully into the list.

A combined codex is perfectly possible (the new Space Marines have an unbelievable number of units available to them, absolutely astounding). A plethora of Special Characters would allow certain armies to be built. For example, a combined Inquisition book might not have a generic Deathwatch hero or Deathwatch Troops units at all, instead, a special character that moved Deathwatch into the apropriate slots to make a Deathwatch army (or Grey Knights, or whatever). Another SC might be a radical and have a daemonhost. And so on. Seems like "niche" armies are more-and-more being centered around a special character, so I would expect that to be the case for the Inquisition.

I also don't see any issue bringing the units together. There are a lot of superflous units (dominions and retributors are pretty much the same thing, arcoflagellants could be part of Inquisitorial retinues, etc). As for there being an issue with mix-n-match, there are a lot of ways to curb this, but at the end of the day if someone wants to deploy Grey Knights, Sisters and Deathwatch together... why not? An inter-ordo combined task force isn't particularly far-fetched. Certainly wouldn't require the paradigm shift that has happened in the chaos background to allow the chaos gods to play well together.

senorcardgage
12-09-2008, 20:12
I wouldn't say they are a mistake. They are much along the lines of the codecies released at the time. There used to be Tonnes of different army builds out there!!

I think it would be best if they lumped all the Ordos together to make the Ordos a standalone army without having to ally with IG or SM, etc.

forbin
12-09-2008, 20:14
yes I will mourn the loss of WH and DH codexes as GW goes on its mission to simplify the codexes ( hang on isn't the new SM going to be complex ? ).

the CSM codex I think was a mistake by GW , and some comments from JJ support this, wether anything gets done is another matter

lets face it , unless GW can make some money quickly out of the WH and DH they won't be touched.

just my opinion

Forbin

Tsear
12-09-2008, 20:22
So the problem is that the design of those two armies are different than the design of other armies? Why is this a problem that needs fixing?

Davout
12-09-2008, 20:27
No, I don't think the =][= books were a mistake. For one the WH book made me start 2 armies. One pure sisters and another IG army to act as allies. Now, i don't know if this is typical, but the WH book got me to lay down some dollars.

Will the forces change in the future, probably yes. Will you be able to ally you WH force to Marines or Guard, I hope so, but it won't kill my army if you can't.

I do hope that GW continues to support the =][= as I feel they provide unique and interesting armies for people to play with both from a gaming and modeling perspective.

PondaNagura
12-09-2008, 20:38
i think by having the DH/WH being the only two lists that can be standalone or allied, as to their own uniqueness within the next edition, which would set them apart a bit from the other dexes that lack the ability to ally (as much as i'm still dismayed about the whole chaos thing).

The_Outsider
12-09-2008, 21:40
A force of GK was a mistake, but DH were not. WH/SoB are fine IMO.

stecal
12-09-2008, 22:11
That was they way they did Codexes then. Now it is different.

I think SOB should get their own Codex

Lump all the rest of the Inquisitorial stuff into another codex

senorcardgage
12-09-2008, 22:18
Lol, funny avatar stecal :)

Zander
12-09-2008, 22:41
A grand singular Inquisitorial book for all 3 ordos would make me happy at this point. Very happy.

Askari
12-09-2008, 22:50
Yet another vote for a singular Inquisition codex.
Daemonhunters were far too specialised, and they even failed at their specialty, giving the enemy's daemons ability to recycle.

Witchhunters, in particular Sisters of Battle were far better, but I still think they would benefit from the current HQ changes troops trend. So the Sisters would lose nothing, able to rely on their own powers, or become more versatile, adding Grey Knights and heavy tanks but sacrificing Faith points.

victorpofa
12-09-2008, 23:48
The only mistake is how long it has taken to make their troops plastic. If rumors hold true Stormtroopers will be released in plastic with the next IG codex. That's one Troops choice down and three to go. Deathwatch already has a metal upgrade kit. Make that plastic as a stand alone kit or part of an =][= upgrade sprue. That's two down. That leaves Sisters and Grey Knights for plastic kits for a combined Ordos codex. Simple, eh? :angel::evilgrin:

I am hoping that the increase in metal costs will accelerate the move to plastic for Sisters and Grey Knights. The number of all metal units in GW's line are unbelievable. I just paid $35 for 10 used Warp Spiders, and that was a bargain. Don't get me started on Pariahs, Immortals, Wraithguard and Ogryns. :cries:

If GW puts out plastic Grey Knights and Sisters that will remove the block I have on making such armies. That is more $$ for them, and less metal in their line. There are many people here on Warseer, and many more who never read such forums who would love to start =][=, but don't want or can't afford to buy an all metal army.

Lord_Squinty
13-09-2008, 00:03
Id vote for an all in one =I= codex.
Id still use my SoB as a pure force though...
Ive wanted them minis since the picture of 'Sister Sin' in Rogue Trader

Linkdead
13-09-2008, 00:08
The thing that worries me most about the future of sister's is the possibility for horribly bad sculpts on the female models. The current models are really good their faces is really the only poor part.

weissengel86
13-09-2008, 00:22
If GW decided that DH/WH were a mistake and scrapped them then i know for sure i would find another hobby.

I would like to see a combined inquisition mega codex like the new marine one if that happened i would be very happy. Making the GK and sisters plastic is not really that important to me sure it may be cheaper but not necessarily better in my opinion. Im far more interested in seeing the Inquisition updated then anything else. It isnt going to be long before i can shell out considerably more money for this hobby so im not to concerned about plastic over metal.

Inq. Veltane
13-09-2008, 00:42
Yeah, although the Inquisition may need a new Codex (Ok, really do) I don't think they really need new plastics. I mean, they do if they want them to become one of the major armies but simply combining Inquisitors of the three ordos, some special units, Sisters, Grey Knights then Inducted Guard as one book wouldn't be much work and would be quite enough. Between Inducted Guard and Allied Space Marines the Inquisition have a fair few plastics already. If you made plastic Storm Troopers they would sell to both Inquisition and Guard players and you then would have little grounds for complaint. I love my Inquisition armies but they aren't competitive and need to be brought up to par. They are a huge part of the fluff of the Imperium, you can't just scrap them. Not every army needs to be equally popular.

Alessander
13-09-2008, 01:49
When DH came out, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle and Necrons were all-metal armies. Due to the high point costs of individual models, DH were probably the cheapest of these armies to collect.

DH is a fluff army, designed to play closer to the fluff than for competetive play. The same applies to Codex Daemons as well, it seems. I'm not sure if GW meant this to happen, but it's how it panned out.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 02:11
I am breaking the rules and posting without reading anything so I may go back and change this after I read it. The two armies fit 3rd edition great. Back then, SM players had a codex and then an add on the the red, green, or gray marines. In that sense it fits well.

As far as the models being metal, it was the only way to get the detail at the time. They have sold well considering and I am sure they have made their money.

I did a thread a while back on how they could be a viable army in plastic. They could change. I don't see an issue.

Deadboytat2
13-09-2008, 02:18
I heard and this could be hear say that they were going to merge DH and WH books together and just have one inquisition book. in fact i was looking forward too it because that would mean they would have alot better options there rules updated to fit 5th edition and they would get a hole new range of plastics. But i dont know if its true.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 02:30
Not much was said that would make me change my knee jerk post.

Here is that thread I wrote about.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159559

Chem-Dog
13-09-2008, 03:25
or integrate certain basic units (e.g. "guard squad" or "tactical squad") fully into the list.

This is pretty much the case as-is, the only difference is that if DH or WH were released now the various IG or Marine units would have all options listed in the book (something that kicked in a little bit after the DH's and WH's were released)


A combined codex is perfectly possible (the new Space Marines have an unbelievable number of units available to them, absolutely astounding). A plethora of Special Characters would allow certain armies to be built. For example, a combined Inquisition book might not have a generic Deathwatch hero or Deathwatch Troops units at all, instead, a special character that moved Deathwatch into the apropriate slots to make a Deathwatch army (or Grey Knights, or whatever). Another SC might be a radical and have a daemonhost. And so on. Seems like "niche" armies are more-and-more being centered around a special character, so I would expect that to be the case for the Inquisition.

While I agree an all inclusive Inquisition list is possible there would have to be some pretty strong list restricitions to prevent horrendous SM/SoB/IG/DW/SM hybrid armies emerging :eek:.
And I think the Inquisition are a good contender for the exception to the rule that Niche armies are activated by Special Characters, would we REALLY want to see every other IG army lead By Inquisitor Kryptman or Eisenhorn?


I also don't see any issue bringing the units together. There are a lot of superflous units (dominions and retributors are pretty much the same thing, arcoflagellants could be part of Inquisitorial retinues, etc). As for there being an issue with mix-n-match, there are a lot of ways to curb this, but at the end of the day if someone wants to deploy Grey Knights, Sisters and Deathwatch together... why not? An inter-ordo combined task force isn't particularly far-fetched. Certainly wouldn't require the paradigm shift that has happened in the chaos background to allow the chaos gods to play well together.

I'm not sure it's that simple, the Chaos gods still fight it's just their followers who have to be a little more pragmatic about picking their fights ;)
My personal reluctance at the multi-agency type Inquisitorial force is partly aesthetic, I don't think that that many disparate forces on the tabletop will ever actually look good. Asside from that the average 40K game would typically represent an Inquisitor and his retainers (Inquisitors, IG and Storm Troopers) supported by a contingent of troops called in from available Imperial/Inquisitorial forces (Space Marines/Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle/Death Watch), if it's got to the point where your Inquisitor has had to call in any one of these forces, it's bad enough, if he's had to call two or more, it's probably time for an Apocalypse game!



A force of GK was a mistake, but DH were not. WH/SoB are fine IMO.

I'm inclined to believe you, GK's were cool all the while they were this very occasional unit of extra hard Psychic Terminators, I doubt it's going to be undone though.


I heard and this could be hear say that they were going to merge DH and WH books together and just have one inquisition book.

It's an oft discussed subject on these boards, the continued absence of the Ordo Xenos (who were alleged at one point to be around the corner with promise of Death Watch Dreadnoughts, Terminators and Scouts) has been seen as a big indicator that the next Inquisition book COULD be an all in one (as to release the OX would immediately disadvantage the OH and OM and to release either of the other two would be just plain unfair to the Xenos guys....)


I'm not sure if the DH and WH books were a mistake as such, they were pretty much of the time and fitted quite well with what was available at the time, unfortunately this does not match up well with the re-though 40K and they now stand out as some of the MOST in need of a re-buff.
I'm still hedging my bets on 4 Inquisition "books" (whether or not they are in one tomes is another question) With the Three Chambers Militant of the Inquisition being detailed as their own list (with optional Inquisitors) and a fourth detailing the warband of an Inquisitor who cannot or chooses not to call upon the help of the more puritanical elements of their fraternity, the Radical.

sabre4190
13-09-2008, 05:13
I think that, while the book needs updating and such, they were in fact a superb addition to 40k. The inquisition has always been one of my favorite forces within the imperium, and DH were actually my first army. The character they bring as a fluff based army is almost without equal, and they also add a solid element to the Imperial Guard. I think that they need to keep them in the universe somehow, even if it means they are lowered to being part of the Imperial Guard codex.

Deadboytat2
13-09-2008, 05:19
as a person that works in a game store i sure you that they combine them in one book as i am running out of shelf space with all the codex's as is. On the other hand from a player stand point it would be nice to have 4 different books as you suggest chem-dog. for the simple reason that there will be a hole lot more fluff in 4 new books as opposed to one. Although with the shear amount of stuff they put in the new SM dex maybe they could pull off a really well written full of fluff book that had them all in it.

Time will tell i suppose, what ever happens it is not for a while at least because i have not seen even a rumor about from my sales reps. though i am hoping that they do put one out in the 2009 year because we have quite a few DM and WH players that come too the store and i know it will make there day as they have had to hear everyone eles talk about there GM love codex's. And now that the new ork book is out i have to agree that they are in bad need of a new dex and are dew for one more then anyone eles.

Tags
13-09-2008, 05:22
If the demon hunters vanish I will be pissed

Luckywallace
13-09-2008, 08:34
Just want to state again that I do not personally want the Inquisition to vanish. But they do need an update or re-jig to stay in-tune with where 40k has moved to and it is how G.W. could do this that I see as the problem.

I would love a seperate Codex: Sisters of Battle but I cannot see G.W. doing it, so I think the most likely outcome is the Inquisition "Mega Dex".
Unless the "HQ-limit" idea that has been thrown around these boards so many times comes into play (basically you can only take troops from an ordo if you have an HQ choice from it... meaning that if you wants SoB's you need a Canonness) the armies will be very hotch-potch and chaotic (heresy!).

The other issue is that I am still not convinced an Inquisition dex would make much money for G.W. - I think it would require a strong marketing drive, some good plastics (many people just mention plastic Sisters and Grey Knights but I think Grey Knight termies and especially Seraphim would be essential now that metal prices are going up) and it's quite likely that many players who are possible Inquisition fans have already bought their armies.

I don't want to be a dom-monger but I can't see this book any time soon, with Guard, Necrons and Dark Eldar all due first.

Stingray_tm
13-09-2008, 08:41
The Inquisition codizes were no mistake. They were perfectly okay, when they were released. The direction, GW is heading now, is the real mistake. Or let me say, the change of direction, every 3 months and therefore the lack of any consistent design philisophy is the REAL mistake.

Colonial Rifle
13-09-2008, 08:58
The Inquisition codizes were no mistake. They were perfectly okay, when they were released. The direction, GW is heading now, is the real mistake. Or let me say, the change of direction, every 3 months and therefore the lack of any consistent design philisophy is the REAL mistake.

QFT

I'il take the WH codex over the cr*p of Codex:CSM any day of the week.

Personally, I hope they don't touch the books until they get decent designers in. You know that it will end up as an option-less/fluff-violating disaster where Grey Knight terminators fight side-by-side with sisters and Deathwatch on a regular basis. No thanks.

djinn8
13-09-2008, 09:07
I would hate for the =][= to become a stand alone army. The whole idea is that they add fluff to your lists. Would my IG Planetry Regency be the same if it's Lord Regent didn't have his Lady Inquisitor wife or his detatchment of GK retainer? Without the allied fluff troops, the best I could have for my HQ would be a a Heroic Officer - way too vanilla for my tastes.

EDIT: Lets not forget that what the =][= codex brings to the Imperium forces as allies, it also brings to Chaos as well since there would be no rules for Renagades as the Lost and Damned army list has been swept away.

Stingray_tm
13-09-2008, 09:32
Hey i'd love to start a DH army, but nowadays, unless you are not playing Marines, you better should not count on your army being valid more than 1 or 2 years. So i totally stopped buying new stuff from GW. Thanks GW for helping me make that decision...

march10k
13-09-2008, 10:32
* However, G.W. would be naturally reluctant to bring about the speculated Inquisition "Super Codex"... there is no real gaurantee it would make much money and it woudl require an extensive range of plastic releases to cover all of the basic troop types (I would say at least a Sisters of Battle unit, a Seraphim unit, a Grey Knights unit and a Grey Knights Terminators unit).
The army would still remain very "muddled", in fact it would probably get worse with a mix of Inquisitors/Stormtroopers/Grey Knights/Sisters/Deathwatch.


Or...they could redo the codexes, even the way they did BA (in WD), and not release new models...except maybe on FW. Scratch that. Definitely need some resin love! Like a FW redo of the organ tank....mmmm!

I see the point about return on investment for producing new SoB/GK models, and there's really nothing wrong with the current lines. I think most GK and SoB players are fully aware that they play fringe armies and that GW can't afford to throw away good money selling them shiny new models at a loss.

Most of us would be more than happy just to get a new codex that brings our wargear, points costs, etc, into 5th edition. I wouldn't turn down some new models, especially a special character or two, but just update my >expletive redacted< rules. Oh, and separate codices please. NO SUPERDEX. SoB are NOT part of the inquisition. They are the muscle of the ecclesiarchy. They work for inquisitors in the same capacity as IG and SM do. Until you roll IG and SM into C:I, I demand the same courtesy for my sisters:wtf:

LordFulgrim
13-09-2008, 11:06
I don't want to be a dom-monger but I can't see this book any time soon, with Guard, Necrons and Dark Eldar all due first.

Neither can I and I agree that with the current direction GW is heading it will be very hard to incorporate DH/WH into the system at all.
I'd love to see an update though because the fluff is just too cool to ignore and the armies are so full of character. I'm sure GW would also make a lot of enemies if they would simply drop it all together.
New miniatures? Forget it, that would be a huge drain on GW's resources; I simply cannot see it make enough profit. An update on the 'dexes would be more logical and really welcomed; either real shiny new books or just a WD update.

Stingray_tm
13-09-2008, 11:36
I think the official approach of GW concerning DH and WH currently is this:

"Witchhunters? What Witchhunters? Are you sure there is such an army? Hey, don't you want to buy the new Ironclad Dreadnought and start a Space Marine army?"

Maybe they hope DH and WH players just die out without making too much trouble, so they can be conveniently ignored. The new codizes certainly do.

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 11:54
There was a thread about Inquisitor plastics. Some, myself included think that a mere BT/DA style upgrade sprue would suffice. All you really need are Mk. 8 torsos, Mk. 2 helmets, shoulder pads, storm bolters and power weapons. I know the lance is popular, but doesn't the fluff say that the Nemesis comes in many forms and each weapon is personal, developing with the user. I think it's funny that sergeants have swords while grunts have lances. Would mean the sergeants had swords when they were but wee knights, but you don't see normal GK with swords or anything other than lances.

But so, a kit with upgrade to make 5 GK from the normal SM bits is a good mix. Or maybe 5 GK in total, like the DA kit. £12 for 5 plasti GK is probably better than the same price on 2-3 metal ones. Terminators could either be as is, or the sprue could include bits to make normal terminators into GKs. Like GW has never before done something like that.


I myself am actually hoping to get some sort of plastic Stormtrooper/arbites kit. Reading Crossfire (and having its sequel, Legacy) makes me wanna do a real Judge Dredd style Cities of Death army. Just Arbites in Rhinos (with flashing lights) rolling through the city and breaking up the crowds. Maybe some Inquisitors as "PSI Judges".


Oh, and separate codices please. NO SUPERDEX. SoB are NOT part of the inquisition. They are the muscle of the ecclesiarchy. They work for inquisitors in the same capacity as IG and SM do. Until you roll IG and SM into C:I, I demand the same courtesy for my sisters:wtf:
Hear that? That's the world's smallest sonic blaster playing for you. Khorne Berserkers have no place in Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons would die before taking Plague Marines. But it's all good, you can still do themed armies. Or just count as. Or play Apocalypse. Right? Right?

Eryx_UK
13-09-2008, 12:16
I think placing both armies under one codex, though as seperate lists, would be a good idea. As long as they kept them as allies to IG and SM as well, I'd be happy. Both armies are long overdue for a redo.

Reaver83
13-09-2008, 12:24
I think when they come to redo the inquisition I'd think suitable plastic kits would be

Death watch upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac squad)
Grey Knight upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac Squad)
Grey Knight Terinator Upgrade Kit (for Plastic SM Terminators)
Plastic SOB's (with enough heavy weapon options to make devastator if you combine a few)

I'd also get rid of the allies rule, thye've done it for chaos so I think it's likely they'll want INQ forces to be stand alone.

hivefleetcarrion
13-09-2008, 12:50
Hear that? That's the world's smallest sonic blaster playing for you. Khorne Berserkers have no place in Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons would die before taking Plague Marines. But it's all good, you can still do themed armies. Or just count as. Or play Apocalypse. Right? Right?

heh, most of the thousand sons are already dead ;)

i couldnt see how a supdex would be that bad rules wise, i mean limit each type of "troop" (sisters, dh, ig, sm and I ) to only be used when a hq from the same type is taken. only problem i could see is trying to squeeze all the background into one codex and making it fit together

matt_17
13-09-2008, 12:56
My first army was Inquisition (DH to be specific), I chose to play them because I like the idea of an army who had the Emperor's Express permission to kick anyone and everyone's ass - whether they were Loyalist Marines ('cause there might just be a Daemon Lurking among them somewhere) or Eldar ('cause you just can't trust them silly foreigners) etc.

The problem was that as the game progressed they became less and less able to kick ass, especially with 5th-Ed making only troops scoring units... DH basically hand games to the army they are intended to nail. Now I don't have to win every game to stay happy, but I like to have a list that is genuinely competitive.

Anyway, I would love to see the Inquisition redone, even though I now play Chaos (yes, I went to the dark side). I think they could make an all inclusive codex work. I've seen lots of people talking about doing it by having certain troops and other choices dependent on what HQs you take, personally I think it'd work better the other way around.

I think the army should have a core which is specifically inquisition based (Inquisitors, Assassins, Inquis Stormtroopers, that kind of thing) and have the three troops choices from each ordo available as well. But to get anything else from GK, SoB or Deathwatch you'd need a minimum number of the appropriate troops, which would fit quite well with the "Troops are Important" idea that GW is going with at the moment.

Anyway, just my thoughts, do with them as you will.

matt_17
13-09-2008, 13:03
Death watch upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac squad)
Grey Knight upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac Squad)
Grey Knight Terinator Upgrade Kit (for Plastic SM Terminators)
Plastic SOB's (with enough heavy weapon options to make devastator if you combine a few)

In general I agree with this, but the GK termies are so different (and awesome) that I rather see them stay in metal than be relegated to being add ond to normal termies.

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 13:17
heh, most of the thousand sons are already dead ;)
Undead.


i couldnt see how a supdex would be that bad rules wise, i mean limit each type of "troop" (sisters, dh, ig, sm and I ) to only be used when a hq from the same type is taken. only problem i could see is trying to squeeze all the background into one codex and making it fit together
All they need to do is add plenty of fluff of them working together, ala Daemons. Seriously, reading some of that stuff sounds like a battle report (at least the WHFB ones). Lord of Change opens a gate to allow flesh hounds to get through, Keeper of Secrets leads bloodlettes and plaguebeasts against the HE, etc.


In general I agree with this, but the GK termies were so different
Fixed that for ya.

Deus Mechanicus
13-09-2008, 13:36
What they really oughta do is give the Sisters of Battles a proper stand-alone codex. Flesh out their fluff and new pretty models. Oh and PLASTIC Battle Sisters! It's the sole reason i haven't started a Sisters of Battle army. You gotta play some to win some. I hear you cry that the SoB doesn't sell or isn't popular enough but maybe it's because they have an outdated 3rd edition half-codex and practicly no plastic models. That's the reasons i don't collect them. Their fluff, look, feel and theme is awesome no doubt.

Kettu
13-09-2008, 13:38
Ok, my stance, give me a Sisters of Battle codex with the churches weapons of war included. (Arcos, Penitent engines, unwashed masses) and a =][= codex as two separate, unattached codices.


A combined codex is perfectly possible (the new Space Marines have an unbelievable number of units available to them, absolutely astounding). A plethora of Special Characters would allow certain armies to be built. For example, a combined Inquisition book might not have a generic Deathwatch hero or Deathwatch Troops units at all, instead, a special character that moved Deathwatch into the apropriate slots to make a Deathwatch army (or Grey Knights, or whatever). Another SC might be a radical and have a daemonhost. And so on. Seems like "niche" armies are more-and-more being centered around a special character, so I would expect that to be the case for the Inquisition.

And what? Every Sisters army ever, in all existence, are led by a single living saint who died at least a full century before the current setting?
Or perhaps a Canoness who died fighting Hive Fleet Kraken.
Or Helena, who is a non-com.


I also don't see any issue bringing the units together. There are a lot of superflous units (dominions and retributors are pretty much the same thing, arcoflagellants could be part of Inquisitorial retinues, etc). As for there being an issue with mix-n-match, there are a lot of ways to curb this, but at the end of the day if someone wants to deploy Grey Knights, Sisters and Deathwatch together... why not? An inter-ordo combined task force isn't particularly far-fetched. Certainly wouldn't require the paradigm shift that has happened in the chaos background to allow the chaos gods to play well together.

Retribution Squads are a heavy support squad, equipped with some of the longest ranged weapons in the Sisters armoury. They are equipped to battle, at range, large groups of enemy warriors or to bring down heavy armour and the many monstrous creatures employed by the many enemies of the Imperium.
Dominions are a rapid response unit, equipped with a variety of specialised weapons and mounted in a transport for rapid redeployment and fire support of the rest of the girls.
They are a flanking unit and tend to work best assisting the rest of the force. If only the rules allowed it, they could even be considered an infiltration unit, deployed solo to flank behind enemy lines or in terms of a city fight, forging ahead of the main force, leaving the way clear for the larger units of Sisters to deploy at the front lines with better efficiency and safety.

Yeah, really similar.

And as for an Inquisitor bringing an Arco along in the middle of his retinue? In Inquisitor this made sense, but in war? I think he has own safety in mind before needing that extra 'oomph' in CC.

And on the mix-and-match options. Really, how often would an Inquisitor be fighting a daemon summoning genestealer cult with psyker initiates?
And if this were the case, then they would be deployed en-mass. Not some scattered squads working tag-team in small engagements.

leonmallett
13-09-2008, 14:04
I do not see the presence of Inquisition armies to be a mistake, nor do I think an eventual super-list (with options for Ordo-specific list construction) to be a potential mistake either.

That said, I think any eventual book needs to be self-contained (with basic IG and SM squad entires available). Any such book can offer a reall alternative to the current Imperial line-up.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 14:46
There was a thread about Inquisitor plastics. Some, myself included think that a mere BT/DA style upgrade sprue would suffice. All you really need are Mk. 8 torsos, Mk. 2 helmets, shoulder pads, storm bolters and power weapons. I know the lance is popular, but doesn't the fluff say that the Nemesis comes in many forms and each weapon is personal, developing with the user. I think it's funny that sergeants have swords while grunts have lances. Would mean the sergeants had swords when they were but wee knights, but you don't see normal GK with swords or anything other than lances.

But so, a kit with upgrade to make 5 GK from the normal SM bits is a good mix. Or maybe 5 GK in total, like the DA kit. £12 for 5 plasti GK is probably better than the same price on 2-3 metal ones. Terminators could either be as is, or the sprue could include bits to make normal terminators into GKs. Like GW has never before done something like that.

It is here.


Not much was said that would make me change my knee jerk post.

Here is that thread I wrote about.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159559

Hope that helps.


Hear that? That's the world's smallest sonic blaster playing for you. Khorne Berserkers have no place in Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons would die before taking Plague Marines. But it's all good, you can still do themed armies. Or just count as. Or play Apocalypse. Right? Right?

I agree. I don't see a point in making multiple codex just to keep someone from building a combined strike force. If you don't like it then you don't do it. That works.


What they really oughta do is give the Sisters of Battles a proper stand-alone codex. Flesh out their fluff and new pretty models. Oh and PLASTIC Battle Sisters! It's the sole reason i haven't started a Sisters of Battle army. You gotta play some to win some. I hear you cry that the SoB doesn't sell or isn't popular enough but maybe it's because they have an outdated 3rd edition half-codex and practicly no plastic models. That's the reasons i don't collect them. Their fluff, look, feel and theme is awesome no doubt.

They are already a low demand army. The combination of the Ordos will assist in getting sales above break even.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 14:51
I think when they come to redo the inquisition I'd think suitable plastic kits would be

Death watch upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac squad)
Grey Knight upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac Squad)
Grey Knight Terinator Upgrade Kit (for Plastic SM Terminators)
Plastic SOB's (with enough heavy weapon options to make devastator if you combine a few)

I'd also get rid of the allies rule, thye've done it for chaos so I think it's likely they'll want INQ forces to be stand alone.

In the other thread we never reached a consensus (not that it matters really) but the last posting on what we though were the most viable release boxes were

1 Box Plastic Sisters
1 Box GK Terminators (?)
1 Box Upgrades for DW marines and GK Power Armor
1 Box Inquisitor and Retinue (lots of bits)
1 Box General Upgrades (Walker bits, special/heavy weapons, vehicle doors etc.)

Stingray_tm
13-09-2008, 15:00
They are already a low demand army. The combination of the Ordos will assist in getting sales above break even.

They are a low demand army, because GW doesn't adertise them, they don't even mention them anymore (no coverage in WD or anywhere). The models are expensive, the rules are outdated and there are serious questions about what happens with their allies, when new codizes come out, and knowing GW they will just ignore this issue.

Would you start an army, if nobody told you about it, and even if you already knew about them, your knowledge of the metagame would tell you, that GW has no support for them?

I would gladly start a DH army, because i love the fluff and the minis. But not under the given circumstances. No way!

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 15:04
I am the wrong person to ask as I have DH and WH armies.

When they were released were they in higher demand? I wasn't around when the 3rd edition codex was released so I have no idea.

I like Vostroyans as well but I am under no illusion that the army would have flown off of the shelves had they been made in plastic.

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 15:09
I agree. I don't see a point in making multiple codex just to keep someone from building a combined strike force. If you don't like it then you don't do it. That works.
Well, I was being sarcastic really. I really don't like things like mixed Chaos, and the idea of mixed hunter codexes is about as appealing as sporting Admech, Guard and SM in the same codex.

If the new Guard codex rumours are true, Inquisitors might end up as Harlequin style options that are found in the codexes of other factions as they're too small to work on their own in 40K scale. I would opt for 3 codexes or 1 codex split into 3 parts (via character choices or something), just no "stormtroopers = 'nettes, sisters = horrors, deathwatch = plaguebearers and GK = bloodletters" type of crap.

Sisters on their own should have more than enough stuff to stand on their own. Just look at all the stuff the Ecclesiarchy has. You got the Sisters, all the penitent thingies (priests, zealots, acro-fragelants), etc. Not to forget mixing with Adeptus Arbites and Ordo Hereticus. I cannot see all this filed down into a slot among 2 other factions.

Might as well turn the Guard codex into mix of Codex Catachans (stealthy jungle fighters), Cadians (basic infantry), Tallarns (special thingies) and Steel Legion (armoured fists). Surely there's cases of different regiments working together for the greater glory of the Imperium just like daemons and cult troopers fight side by side for the greater glory of chaos.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 15:15
I just don't see a point in having them in multiple codex because you are worried about some fluff written 15 years ago. GW has no consistency so I really don't see an issue when them deciding to change the book to have all Ordos in one book. Generally they operate alone but they can be fielded together.

Keep in mind that you can include SoB allies in a DH army now so it really isn't that far off the mark to do that which is most expedient from a business perspective.

Kettu
13-09-2008, 15:26
Well, I was being sarcastic really. I really don't like things like mixed Chaos, and the idea of mixed hunter codexes is about as appealing as sporting Admech, Guard and SM in the same codex.

You know, that sounds like an awesome codex, but only after the Imps get their own so you have the option of playing either.


If the new Guard codex rumours are true, Inquisitors might end up as Harlequin style options that are found in the codexes of other factions as they're too small to work on their own in 40K scale. I would opt for 3 codexes or 1 codex split into 3 parts (via character choices or something), just no "stormtroopers = 'nettes, sisters = horrors, deathwatch = plaguebearers and GK = bloodletters" type of crap.

Meph, Sisters are more of a Flamer unit anyway but not on topic.


Sisters on their own should have more than enough stuff to stand on their own. Just look at all the stuff the Ecclesiarchy has. You got the Sisters, all the penitent thingies (priests, zealots, acro-fragelants), etc. Not to forget mixing with Adeptus Arbites and Ordo Hereticus. I cannot see all this filed down into a slot among 2 other factions.

Save the Arbites and Ordo Hereticus for the =][= codex. Sisters and Ecclesiarchy have more than enough strength to stand on their own.
We only need a few more units (a separate CC focused unit of Celestians, The Militia, Zealots, New tank (repressor maybe?) Hospitallers fielded like priests (buy so many and have one per squad) Infiltration unit, Deathcultists and maybe a small mobile shrine)

Come on, Necrons were an even worse selling line then the Sisters were at the dawn of 3rd edition but they still got more Fu*king love.


Might as well turn the Guard codex into mix of Codex Catachans (stealthy jungle fighters), Cadians (basic infantry), Tallarns (special thingies) and Steel Legion (armoured fists). Surely there's cases of different regiments working together for the greater glory of the Imperium just like daemons and cult troopers fight side by side for the greater glory of chaos.

Isn't that how it currently works with the doctrines?

Luckywallace
13-09-2008, 15:56
Hmm, somebody mentioned it somewhere in this thread and I think it might be a really good idea...

White Dwarf / Online PDF codex anybody?

This would be a valid way to update both the Witch Hunter and Daemon Hunter codex books without the huge investment required in putting out a complete army book with all the pomp and ceremony that would need to go into it.

G.W. have proven that they are willing to go down this route again with the Blood Angels and the temporary Warriors of Chaos lists. Some foreign G.W. websites apparently even put the Daemon Hunter army book online as a free PDF to download.

This would save G.W. the cost of making new models and the risk that new plastics would not sell, but update the lists to be more workable/competative in the 5th edition environment (35 point Rhino please? Non-useless Repentia please?) and give both armies a boost in publicity as well. Maybe they could even do an Alien Hunters list?

This would also leave the door open for Games Workshop to make the Inquisition forces a combined "big codex" if they wantd, the page count would not really be any more than the Blood Angels codex (spread across 2 issues it would work fine).

Again, don't get me wrong, I would love a flashy new 100+ page standalone codex for my Sisters of Battle filled with great new artwork and fluff and complemented by plastic kits but I am a realist and cannot see this happening. Maybe White Dwarf lists are the best solution?

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 16:05
My biggest problem is that to have a workable army, you have to abandon all fluff. My old mono-god daemon army was never über, but after the new army book came out it's even worse while multi-god armies rule charts all over. So instead of Sisters or GK, you'd see them both, along with Deathwatch, if you want to have a balanced and fair army.

I'm sorry, but I would prefer a single working force. When you play WW2 games, you select one country. When you play with Germans, you don't get to take Japanese units with them, no matter how allied they were.

I'm so tempted to do a Marine army with each and every unit in it from a different chapter. DA terminators, BA assault marines, White Scars bikers, SW Dreadnought, BT Crusader, etc. etc. Screw fluff, this is game mechanics! And people get upset when people do Hello Kitty Marines... What point is there in doing armies that follow the fluff to the letter when even GW doesn't give a flying damn.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 16:16
My biggest problem is that to have a workable army, you have to abandon all fluff. My old mono-god daemon army was never über, but after the new army book came out it's even worse while multi-god armies rule charts all over. So instead of Sisters or GK, you'd see them both, along with Deathwatch, if you want to have a balanced and fair army.

You would see them both unless GW builds the army in such a way that one would not. Use of FOC changes could help as could requirements for a certain unit to be taken for another unit to be available. For instance you are unable to take PA GK teleport assault troops without a GK hero.

Given GW's track record I understand your concern but it could be done.


I'm sorry, but I would prefer a single working force. When you play WW2 games, you select one country. When you play with Germans, you don't get to take Japanese units with them, no matter how allied they were.

That is true however under the current rules you can take SoB and GK together so that is not going to be a big change if that were to happen in the same Codex.


I'm so tempted to do a Marine army with each and every unit in it from a different chapter. DA terminators, BA assault marines, White Scars bikers, SW Dreadnought, BT Crusader, etc. etc. Screw fluff, this is game mechanics! And people get upset when people do Hello Kitty Marines... What point is there in doing armies that follow the fluff to the letter when even GW doesn't give a flying damn.

I really wouldn't mind if you did. You will only really have problems with using multiple books but you could have them painted however you wish.

GW doesn't give a flying damn about the Fluff because it is something that they use just to sell models. If they thought it would move more units then they would have rules for Necron and Tyranid allied armies.

Ramirez1973
13-09-2008, 17:11
I started a witchhunter army recently because they seem just so cool, I had no idea at the time that I might not get the same support as the other armies from GW. I would be very upset if they ended up discontinued and all the money I spent was wasted

The_Outsider
13-09-2008, 19:36
What GW should do is just codex: inquisition which would be basically DH + WH but with only a handful (read 3) GK units.

GK would come in 3 flavours: a hero, termiantors and power armoured marines. Take a GK hero (who would be lethal and even more powerful than currently and probably higher cost) which would make power armoured GK troops (but leaving terminators as elites) and they would be suped up purgation squads.

Have the GK be super elite, you coudl still build a "pure" force but it would be even more neutered than now (because GK shouldn't be an army, they should be fielded as maybe 3 squads in a force) but when taken part of an =][= force (i.e with the backing of things like orbital bombardment and storm troopers) they would be nearly unstoppable hand to hand killing machines, annihilating anything short of the other super CC units in the game.

Sob/ the =][= stuff would be the core of the force (with the required tweaks to make the codex work and have decent internal balance).

Tags
13-09-2008, 20:00
Once again, if the DH die or go the route of the Dark Eldar I'll be pissed.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 20:23
So drop the GK dreads?

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 20:58
So drop the GK dreads?
Use Deathwatch dreads.

Inq. Veltane
13-09-2008, 21:25
I'm so tempted to do a Marine army with each and every unit in it from a different chapter. DA terminators, BA assault marines, White Scars bikers, SW Dreadnought, BT Crusader, etc. etc. Screw fluff, this is game mechanics! And people get upset when people do Hello Kitty Marines... What point is there in doing armies that follow the fluff to the letter when even GW doesn't give a flying damn.

You mean like a Space Marine Crusade army? Where several chapters all send forces from between a squad and a battle barge? And they all fight together? Yes... thats incredibly unfluffy.... oh wait, no it isn't.

Similarly the Inquisition don't confine themselves to just dealing with one sort of threat. And Inquisitors from different Ordos will often work together quite comfortably. Sure, Grey Knights should only ever fight Chaos and Daemons, and the Deathwatch should really be limited to fighting Xenos but Sisters can and do fight every enemy of the Imperium and they aren't going to refuse to fight alongside an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor who has just discovered a Daemonic Cult on a world they are protecting...

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 21:58
You mean like a Space Marine Crusade army? Where several chapters all send forces from between a squad and a battle barge? And they all fight together? Yes... thats incredibly unfluffy.... oh wait, no it isn't.
Yes, just like how various Guard regiments are known to mix when their numbers are down. Even normal Guard armies are a mix of infantry, artillery and armoured regiments (though players mistakingly paint their tanks with same colours as the parent regiment). Just look at the IG codex, in which the Leman Russes picted with the Cadian 8th are of different colour scheme than the Chimeras and Sentinels, and are not picted in the regimental photo. But even then those tanks derive from the same world. Cadias rarely ride into battle with Krieg artillery or Tallarn tanks supporting them. Just because sometimes the US paratroopers got supported by British tanks during WW2 doesn't mean they were the primary armoured support.


Do you want every army in the game to be a mixture of everything, especially if it is to be competitive? I can just imagine if all the IG armies get Inquisitors as stadard choice. It's probably like not taking Flamers with your daemon army, no matter what theme you had.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 22:06
Use Deathwatch dreads.

Is there such a thing? There was a discussion among the fluffers about if they could and I don't recall anyone offering any evidence that there was. There has been examples of GK Dreads.

Sure GW could wave the wand but I don't really see them invalidating their own models if they want to keep the army.


Yes, just like how various Guard regiments are known to mix when their numbers are down. Even normal Guard armies are a mix of infantry, artillery and armoured regiments (though players mistakingly paint their tanks with same colours as the parent regiment). Just look at the IG codex, in which the Leman Russes picted with the Cadian 8th are of different colour scheme than the Chimeras and Sentinels, and are not picted in the regimental photo. But even then those tanks derive from the same world. Cadias rarely ride into battle with Krieg artillery or Tallarn tanks supporting them. Just because sometimes the US paratroopers got supported by British tanks during WW2 doesn't mean they were the primary armoured support.


Do you want every army in the game to be a mixture of everything, especially if it is to be competitive? I can just imagine if all the IG armies get Inquisitors as stadard choice. It's probably like not taking Flamers with your daemon army, no matter what theme you had.

How about this? You can tell us what you think would be appropriate for each of the FOC slots so we get a clear picture of what you think the Codex should look like in the event it will be a combined Ordo.

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 22:49
Ok, this is the stupidest list ever made, but what the hell, I'll give it a shot. I liked the ol' 3.5 CSM, so I think a similar split between the Ordos and various armis could work.

Basic list would be Inquisitorial in nature. Good for a pure Stormtrooper army, I suppose. Stormtrooper troops (possible Arbites upgrade with S4 shotguns and possible combat shields), Inquisitors and assassins as Elite, sentinels or some sort of light armoured units as Fast (maybe skimmers ala Valkyrie or something), tanks as Heavy. Something fitting. Inquisitorial Land Raiders? I won't list these below.

HQ:
-Inquisitor Lord. The "undivided choice", possibility for different "marks" to gain bonuses of different Ordos'.
-GK Hero/Grand-Master/what ever. Allows the use of GKs.
-Canones. Allows the use of Sisters of Battle.
-Deathwatch captain or something. Allows the use of Deathwatch Marines.
-Special Characters, each Inquisitorial and GK, SoB, DW ones, that would count as one of the above (so a Saint Celestine would count as a Canones for the purpose of taking SoB units).
-Priests. Via Canones, can use second HQ slot to purchase select number of priests (0-5?) that can be placed in units.

ELITE:
-Repentias (SoB)
-Celestials (SoB)
-Terminators (DW) Like Marine ones, maybe possibility to mix assault/normal terminators.
-DW Scouts? (DW) BS4, BA/DA Scouts, is the DW can have scouts.
-Terminators (GK) GK Termies with special thingies and force weapon sergeant.

TROOPS:
-Battle Sisters (SoB) As normal.
-Marines (DW) Marines with special gear, possibility to buy special ammo.
-Grey Knights (GK) As normal.

FAST:
-Seraphims (SoB) As normal.
-Penitent Engine (SoB) More fitting here. Give it Run and Fleet.
-Assault Marines? (DW) Special gear like Troop Marines, if DW has assault Marines.
-Bikers? (DW) Same as above.
-Deep Strike Grey Knights (GK) Is you take a full squad of 10, can count as a Troop choice. Below that counts as FA.

HEAVY:
-Dreadnought (GK) I'll take it that DW don't have Dreads.
-Psychocannongunners (GK) Aka. the GK devastators, what ever they were called, with GK heavy weapons.
-Predator (DW)
-Devastators (DW) Possibly special ammo for guns, like HB shot that wounds on 2+, etc.
-Sister heavy weapons experts (SoB) Again, what ever they were called, Sister heavy gunners.
-Exorcist (SoB) Melta-missile tank.


Well, that's about what I could come up with at this point. Surely one can exploit many things within it, but I don't think there is a list in existence that couldn't be. But I think that at least trying to limit choices in order to keep things "pure", rather than just allowing people to take anything they want, sort of "you're on your honour." I don't think mixed Chaos is bad, but so far majority of mixed allegiance Chaos armies have been under a more or less Undivided lord/lady. That is a solution I can stand behind, because it means you can't have everything you want. The box is there for a reason.

So you can't have DW, SoB and GK all together, but at tops two of them (ergo, all you who mixed SoB and GK before, can still do it). That's in my mind better than "Oh, I'll take some tough Marine troops, Inquisitor lord, Penitent Engines and GK dreads."

Souleater
13-09-2008, 23:08
I'd love something like that, actually. Maybe with an option to add in one or two 'basic' IG or SM units for fluffiness.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 23:34
So one can only use GK forces if you have the GK hero?

I am not adverse to that.

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 23:51
I just thought it would sort of underline the point that GK, DW and SoB work with the Inquisition, but are not Inquisitorial troops per se.

Though I don't know where to stick Daemonhosts. They're not GK units per se. Maybe make them Malleus Inquisitor retinue choises, as I think they're more of a radical Inquisitor option than Grey Knight one. Xenos Inquisitors could probably have alien mercs (also mark of a radical Inquisitor, right?). Sort of like the 0-3 Warrior slot, which can be used for stormtroopers, servitors, crusaders, etc. So an Alien Merc slot can be used for Kroots, Eldar warlocks, things like that (I was once in a larp where a warlock was part of an Inquisitorial retinue). Hereticus? Um... I don't know about them. Something penitive, I guess.

How does that sound?

Templar Ben
14-09-2008, 00:00
I struggled with that as well. I would like to be able to build 6 flavors of armies. The three Ordos with Puritan and Radical lists. Xenos Puritan would have DW and Radical would have Blood Axe Commandos and Kroot. Maybe OH Radicals have sorcerers since Repentia are penitents?

I am curious how to do all of that without truly breaking the army (min max supreme).

MrBigMr
14-09-2008, 00:13
Hmm... How about... Ok, radical. Mmm... Lord Inquisitor with radical tag won't allow GK, DW, SoB to be taken, just and basic list and the following:
-Radical Malleus: Troop cultists, maybe even able (via the cultists) to summon lesser daemons.
-Radical Xenos: Troop alien mercs (from one race, so no Kroot and Blood Axes together).
-Radical Hereticus: Umm... Zealots, fanatical masses that can be led to what ever end. In His name, of course? Imagine IG conscripts with Fearless.

Howzabuut now?

Templar Ben
14-09-2008, 00:26
Would that be too confusing for the GW target market?

I like the idea of "un" sanctioned psychers. Very powerful but potentially devastating for your own army.

MrBigMr
14-09-2008, 00:41
Well, you asked. I would have just settled for "just a tad radical" choices without any "Iä! Iä! Nurgle Fhtang!" stuff. GW has plenty of that troops via special characters stuff going on, so in that way having GK, DW and SoB limited shouldn't be that hard. And you probably mean "40K target market." It's amazing that some of the stuff in WHFB is so complicated it make 40K look like comparing a space rocket to a train's toilet. If GW didn't treat its customers like idiots, there wouldn't be so much problems. Ok, so some starters can't always figure out all the things, but that's pretty common in anything. C'est la vie. Everything can't be easy.

Easy way to make the list: make a list where all options are present. Mark GKs, SoBs and DWs. Put it under each HQ choice that "army that has X, can take units marked Y." So a GK Grand-Master gives you access to units marked to GK, along with non marked units, but not SoB and DW units. For Inquisitors, you have the basic gear, and then the "marks", under which it lists additional gear/options.

If someone ends up having trouble with that, their mother's didn't love them enough. I don't want another Codex: CSM. I came this close to crying when I read it.

Templar Ben
14-09-2008, 01:14
If someone ends up having trouble with that, their mother's didn't love them enough.

If only GW would put that in the Codex.

Lord Martel
14-09-2008, 01:17
GW gets itself into this bind all the time. An army is not supported well or gets uncompetitive due to codex escalation, so they don’t sell well. The army doesn’t sell well so GW doesn’t support it. The cycle continues until the army either dies, or goes the way of the Dark Elder.

Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle add some great flavor to the 40 verse. If GW scraps them or makes them an ally only army I think that it will be a sign of the collapse of 40k.

I know GW wants to stream line their products and produce only things that sell well. However, having armies like =][= keep the 40k community from becoming to stagnate. In my opinion stagnation is the most likely killer of 40k, high prices aside.

Fixing Grey Knights will be tougher than fixing Sisters of Battle. The only thing Sisters really need is some rule tweaking and some weapon options to deal with armor. Maybe a good redo of Seraphim squads. Too high priced for what they do.

Grey Knights need all that and more. Their problems are taking objectives, mobility, and of course their rules dealing with daemons are now useless. GK’s are going to need a lot of work and I fear that GW will not spend the time/resources on them. They have made Space Marines so good that many players will not want to spend the money on GK when their marines already kick ass as it is.

Because of the difficulty in fixing both of these armies, and GW’s need to have constant releases I believe that it is unlikely that a super codex is going to be released. If GW is going to invest in plastics it will want to have several months to show case the army. If a super codex is released it will divide the attention of the gaming community and sales will be spread thin between the three armies.

Also I wouldn’t put it past GW to not announce the release of the other two branches of =][=. Making people wonder if they are getting a codex. Above all else GW likes to keep its customers focused on one product at a time.

I can see Sisters and Grey Knights turning into a gourmet (for lack of a better word) armies, much like Death Corps and other Forge World lists. Assuming that is GW doesn’t support them as well as they should. They will be high priced lightly supported armies played by hard core gamers that GW doesn’t cater to in its main product line.

Remember folks it’s a big universe and your armies will not be missed. :p

MrBigMr
14-09-2008, 01:21
Remember folks it’s a big universe and your armies will not be missed. :p
Unless they're the Ultramarines.

Luckywallace
14-09-2008, 09:08
It seems to be a popular thought that the "HQ-dictates your troops" idea would work well and I have to say I agree.

Dozens of these lists have come up before but I guess that there is no harm is putting another up... roughly speaking, there are either 3 or 4 "armies" within the single Inquisition Super-Codex, Inquisitors, Grey Knights, Sisters and possibly Deathwatch. As with most normal missions you can pick 2 HQ choices you could thus take a mixture of at most 2 armies. Here is how the forces would break down...

INQUISITION
HQ:
Inquisitor Lord (highly customisable character with varied retinue options)

Elite:
Assassins (all types)
Inquisitors (the less powerful 20-point version)

Troops:
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (with plastics please?)

Fast Attack:
Well... nothing really.

Heavy Support:
Orbital Strikes (if they made it through into the book).

GREY KNIGHTS
HQ:
Grey Knight Grand Master (as before)

Elite:
Grey Knight Teminators (as before)

Troops:
Grey Knights in power armour (as before)

Fast Attack:
Something new...? Come on, the Knights need a 'proper' fast attack choice not just teleporting troops. Maybe Land Speeders?

Heavy Support:
Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Purgation Squads

SISTERS OF BATTLE (or rather the Ecclesiary)
HQ:
Canonness
Priests (less useless version perhaps?)

Elite:
Celestians
Repentia (also need a major buff)
Arco Flagellants

Troops:
Sisters of Battle squads

Fast Attack:
Dominion squads
Seraphim squads

Heavy Support:
Retributors
Exorcists
Penitent Engines
Independant Immolators (also avaliable as transports)


I am not so sure about Deathwatch these days. They seem to be pretty well represented by the new Vanguard (or is it Sternguard) Space Marine veterans with their multiple types of ammunition. They have never really functioned as an "army" anyway, more an attachment.

Anyway, getting back to the point, as you can see you are able to mix forces together to some degree, but not to the point the list becomes a complete "pick and choose". If you want Assassins then you have to take an Inquisitor Lord along.
For the Grey Knights and Sisters lists I would personally say you really need to Troops choices from that list before taking anything else as well, to stop a random Canonness and pair of Exorcists showing up in support of Grey Knights.

Not perfect but I think it's one of the best solutions...

Eryx_UK
14-09-2008, 12:34
To be honest, I think that Deathwatch would be better if it went by the Space Marine codex rather than an Inquisitorial one. The only change I'd make there is that you can't have a chapter master but you must take an Inquisitor Lord as your first HQ.

Lord Martel
14-09-2008, 15:53
Unless they're the Ultramarines.

Very True

What does everyone think about basic power armor GK getting a relic blade? Then make the NFW only for termmies, Justicars, and heroes. Give it the ignore eternal warrior rule. Keep it a force weapon for all three as well.

Firaxin
14-09-2008, 19:06
Give it the ignore eternal warrior rule. Keep it a force weapon for all three as well.
Naww... that doesn't help against tyranids.

I'd say all Nemesis Force Weapons still give +2 strength, and additionally should ignore invulnerable saves, just like the psycannons from the same army.

Then the power-weapon, force weapon upgrades can continue in their normal progression from justicar-->termies-->brother-captains-->grandmasters.

This means even basic grey knights will ignore a daemon's save, but things like chaos marines still get a save (unless we're talking about a justicar or higher)

Darthvegeta800
14-09-2008, 19:21
I didn't read all in this page but couldn't some of the units of the Inquisition be added to another codex?
Perhaps replace an IG H.Q. with an Inquisitor+retinue which unlocks a few additionally possible units such as Grey Knights etc at the cost of loosing a few other things in return (army scheme wise)
IG just seems quite compatible with the Inquisition fluff and approach-wise.
(Space Marines can help an Inquisitor and all but the IG can truly fall under the command of an Inquisitor)
Sisters of Battle is more difficult but perhaps something similar is possible?

Overall the best route remains merging SoB and Daemonhunters together in my eyes.

Chem-Dog
14-09-2008, 21:11
Or let me say, the change of direction, every 3 months and therefore the lack of any consistent design philisophy is the REAL mistake.

It has been a problem for some time BUT, I think it does show GW responds to what it's public wants, the horrendously trimmed down codexes of early 3rd edition have gon, for instance.


Lets not forget that what the =][= codex brings to the Imperium forces as allies, it also brings to Chaos as well since there would be no rules for Renagades as the Lost and Damned army list has been swept away.

We hope for a new Stand alone Chaos "mortals" army.


SoB are NOT part of the inquisition. They are the muscle of the ecclesiarchy. They work for inquisitors in the same capacity as IG and SM do. Until you roll IG and SM into C:I, I demand the same courtesy for my sisters:wtf:

Well, technically, they ARE, they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. But I agree generally, the Sisters of Battle have a sturdy enough list to stand alone as a viable army AND still have enough room for more units.



Maybe they hope DH and WH players just die out without making too much trouble, so they can be conveniently ignored.

Because that worked so well with Squats
And the Inquisition is a lot harder to retcon out of existence....


There was a thread about Inquisitor plastics. Some, myself included think that a mere BT/DA style upgrade sprue would suffice.[quote]
Only if you want GK's to devolve into another SM chapter....

[quote] I know the lance is popular, but doesn't the fluff say that the Nemesis comes in many forms and each weapon is personal, developing with the user. I think it's funny that sergeants have swords while grunts have lances. Would mean the sergeants had swords when they were but wee knights, but you don't see normal GK with swords or anything other than lances.

Blame for that lays firmly at the feet of the guys with GK armies though, htere's nothing to stop them doing weapon swaps ;)


I myself am actually hoping to get some sort of plastic Stormtrooper/arbites kit.

Supposed to be Plastic Stormies being released for either the IG Codex or the Planetfall supplement, I dare say they'll do the job of IST perfectly well.



I think placing both armies under one codex, though as seperate lists, would be a good idea. As long as they kept them as allies to IG and SM as well, I'd be happy. Both armies are long overdue for a redo.

Both... Armies?! What about the Ordo Xenos? Surely they would get included!


I think when they come to redo the inquisition I'd think suitable plastic kits would be

Death watch upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac squad)
Grey Knight upgrade kit (for plastic SM tac Squad)
Grey Knight Terinator Upgrade Kit (for Plastic SM Terminators)
Plastic SOB's (with enough heavy weapon options to make devastator if you combine a few)

I'm never going to be convinced that GK's can be a regular Marine + upgrade affair not without spoiling them.
Having held the Black Reach plastics and taking into account the "snap-fit" nature of the set I am convinced, however the GK's and SoB's COULD be made plastic though


I think the army should have a core which is specifically inquisition based (Inquisitors, Assassins, Inquis Stormtroopers, that kind of thing) and have the three troops choices from each ordo available as well. But to get anything else from GK, SoB or Deathwatch you'd need a minimum number of the appropriate troops, which would fit quite well with the "Troops are Important" idea that GW is going with at the moment.

Anyway, just my thoughts, do with them as you will.

Kinda the case already, all of the juicy GK stuff requires the presence of the GK "Hero".


What they really oughta do is give the Sisters of Battles a proper stand-alone codex. Flesh out their fluff and new pretty models. Oh and PLASTIC Battle Sisters! It's the sole reason i haven't started a Sisters of Battle army. You gotta play some to win some. I hear you cry that the SoB doesn't sell or isn't popular enough but maybe it's because they have an outdated 3rd edition half-codex and practicly no plastic models. That's the reasons i don't collect them. Their fluff, look, feel and theme is awesome no doubt.

It's a Chiken/Egg situation If Marines weren't so well supported would they get 50% share of the sales? If the "Niche" armies were better supported would they be less Niche?!



And on the mix-and-match options. Really, how often would an Inquisitor be fighting a daemon summoning genestealer cult with psyker initiates?

Not often, Genestealer cults have been almost ignored for a LONG time, their ability to utilise Chaos was a stupid Rogue Trader idea that would be Retconned should the Stealer Cult ever see the light of day....


If the new Guard codex rumours are true, Inquisitors might end up as Harlequin style options that are found in the codexes of other factions as they're too small to work on their own in 40K scale.

Had it been down to me I would have stuck an Inquisitor + retinue in the HQ section of the SM codex, IG codex and then every other applicable Imperial Army (Leaving them out of the DA codex, for example). This would Leave the way open for a list for each of the Chambers Militant (GK's, DW and SoB) as their own stand alone army (with the obligatory Inquisitor in the HQ section).




My biggest problem is that to have a workable army, you have to abandon all fluff. My old mono-god daemon army was never über, but after the new army book came out it's even worse while multi-god armies rule charts all over. So instead of Sisters or GK, you'd see them both, along with Deathwatch, if you want to have a balanced and fair army.

Difference here is the Daemons were developed as a single army, ignoring the particulars of which god they belong to, so that a workable army could be made out of a mishmash of units without having to really invent anything new, just a couple of new specific Daemons for each God could have made a Monogod army MUCH more viable, but there you go... I don't work in the design studio :(


What GW should do is just codex: inquisition which would be basically DH + WH but with only a handful (read 3) GK units.

If we were approaching the GK's before the DH codex was released I would have said JUST terminators, Heroes and Termi Squads, like it was in the olden days, but now we have Power Armoured models, this isn't really viable anymore.


Similarly the Inquisition don't confine themselves to just dealing with one sort of threat. And Inquisitors from different Ordos will often work together quite comfortably. Sure, Grey Knights should only ever fight Chaos and Daemons, and the Deathwatch should really be limited to fighting Xenos but Sisters can and do fight every enemy of the Imperium and they aren't going to refuse to fight alongside an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor who has just discovered a Daemonic Cult on a world they are protecting...

No their not going to refuse BUT, that one Inquisitor discovering the Cult isn't going to have a personal retainer of SoB's, Gk's and DW at his beck and call, he'll roll with the forces immediately available to him, so a Malleus Inquisitor might well find himself at the head of a SoB force to fight a Dark Eldar coven or something BUT in the simple, broad, brush strokes of 40K the Game it's reasonable to call that Inquisitor a Hereticus Inquisitor.


Is there such a thing?

Pete Hains, IIRC did say that there were Terminators, Scouts and dreadnoughts planned for the DW, not that they ever saw the light of day.


Ok, this is the stupidest list ever made....

I have been struggling with a list like this


I struggled with that as well. I would like to be able to build 6 flavors of armies.

I don't think that SIX variants with Good/Evil divide on each is necessary, it would be safe enough to say that "Radicals" represent their own distinct seperation to the Ordos, a radical is a radical, regardless of which branch he's from (Eisenhorn's Ordo Xenos yet has a Daemonhost, for example) so he'll be reviled by all, this give you a more manageable FOUR variants to consider.


Hmm... How about... Ok, radical. Mmm... Lord Inquisitor with radical tag won't allow GK, DW, SoB to be taken, just and basic list and the following:
-Radical Malleus: Troop cultists, maybe even able (via the cultists) to summon lesser daemons.
-Radical Xenos: Troop alien mercs (from one race, so no Kroot and Blood Axes together).
-Radical Hereticus: Umm... Zealots, fanatical masses that can be led to what ever end. In His name, of course? Imagine IG conscripts with Fearless.

Howzabuut now?

Basic idea I had, although I could work out how best to do the Xenos bit, you could fill a Codex with various Xenos creatures that could be used, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orks, Tau ect etc, I did try a build your own alien type list but that was WAY too complex. and, Oof course, it would be an awesome way of introducing previously unseen or unknown xenos breeds (or Re-Introducing old favourites).

Basically we're looking at 4 Codexes segued into each other.
Firstly we have the "Any Inquisitor" list which covers any options available to an Inquisitor no matter which of the three Ordos he belongs to, IST's, Death Cultists, IG and Marines would all be in this list, then you give your Inquisitor a "Mark" that gives the army access to specific units like the previous CSM list did with the Marks of Chaos, in this instance you'd have the Rosette of each Ordo or the Carta of the Renegade (perhaps the "Special Condition" rosette seen in the Ravenor series) The Rosette of any particular Ordo would open up the units of the corresponding Chamber Militant (as an aside, I think the Ecclesiarchy units, Preists/Arco Flagellants/Penitent Engines should be universal, they shouldn't rely on the presence of the SoB or Vice Versa) taking the Traitors Mark would open up the "Gribblies" list with Daemon Hosts, Alien Allies ect ect.
The "Heroes" of each Chamber (GK Grand Master, SoB Canoness, DW captain) would allow you to pick units ONLY from their Chamber, enabling the players who want to play the "Pure" army to do so.

MrBigMr
14-09-2008, 22:45
Naww... that doesn't help against tyranids.
That's because they're daemonhunters, not your average exterminator. You want bug hunters, use Tyranid War vets.


I'd say all Nemesis Force Weapons still give +2 strength, and additionally should ignore invulnerable saves, just like the psycannons from the same army.
I though about that, but it would be rather insane. They would wound most daemons on 2+ or 3+ (S6 vs. T3, T4) with no saves possible, apart from Khorne daemons, and only vs. Nemesises that don't ignore armour. Maybe higher ranking members could do it, but surely not all GKs. Then again, if the daemons get some bonus against the GK, I don't see why not. But surely just against the daemons. I don't see much reason for the GK to negate the save Harlies have, etc.


Only if you want GK's to devolve into another SM chapter....
Can you explain this logic to me? Are they not Space Marines? Are they not in special power armour/terminator armour? All I'm saying is that it would probably be more cost effective to have an upgrade kit to turn normal PA into GK, than to start working on an entirely new models and moulds for them (in other words, people would have to buy both tac-marines as well as the upgrade set).

All you need are torsos, shoulder pads, helmets and weapons. The BT kit has all of those. The legs are a bit of a problem as GK have Mk. 6 legs. Then again, add a thin armour sheet into the sprue that covers the bottom parts of the legs with pimped out plates to make them look like GK legs.


It's a Chiken/Egg situation If Marines weren't so well supported would they get 50% share of the sales? If the "Niche" armies were better supported would they be less Niche?!
Does WHFB have an army above all others? I mean, ok, there's plenty of Empire, but not all army books are written from Empire POV and there's plenty of non-human novels in it as well. In one thread we calculated the amount of human (Imperial, Chaos, RT, etc.) vs. non-human novels and the ration was 40 : 1. In other words, there's one Eldar and one Tau novel. Every single 40K novels is from human POV. Somehow I think one will find more non-human novels in WHFB.

Brucopeloso
16-09-2008, 11:37
I think (and I hope I am wrong) that DH and WH will end up a bit like DE.

They will be sorted out some time in the far far future, possibly in 7th edition
after a couple of new editions of the SM codex.

As I said I hope I'm wrong as I love the inquisition and inquisitorial forces can be really cool.

:(

Elric of Grans
17-09-2008, 02:01
I see no point in maintaining an Inquisition army, and Codex: Inquisition is guaranteed to be the worst codex ever written, upsetting all the existing players and failing to attract any new ones.

What is an Inquisitional army? It is an Inquisitor and a bunch of troops from <insert favourite human army>. For the love of God, that does not lead to a codex! Either scrap Inquisitors or put them into the new Imperial Guard codex, where they belong. Deathwatch seem to have been replaced with Sterngard Veterans, and never really existed anyway. They can then do Codex: Ecclesiarchy for all the Sisters of Battle players and turn the Grey Knights into a variant Space Marine army which, at the end of the day, is what they are. This would not be difficult to do and is probably the best solution, but no one at Games Workshop currently gives a rats.

I have heard from several Games Workshop sources (and I do not mean the guys in stores either) that these armies are currently not even so much as being considered for an update, but they are likely to look at them in 2011. With any luck, we may see some updates in time for sixth edition.

weissengel86
17-09-2008, 07:53
i would be pissed if inquisitors were lumped with IG or scrapped. I completely disagree that a codex inquisition would be bad. If its as big as the space marine codex it could literally hold all the material from the daemonhunters codex witchhunters codex and even plenty of new stuff including all updates and even the new xenohunters.

Brucopeloso
17-09-2008, 08:29
I see no point in maintaining an Inquisition army, and Codex: Inquisition is guaranteed to be the worst codex ever written, upsetting all the existing players and failing to attract any new ones.

What is an Inquisitional army? It is an Inquisitor and a bunch of troops from <insert favourite human army>. For the love of God, that does not lead to a codex! Either scrap Inquisitors or put them into the new Imperial Guard codex, where they belong. .


I think a big Inquisition codex would be pretty nice and I think you would be pretty upset if somebody soggested to scrap your favourite army. ;)

For the time being DH and WH are fully usable so waiting a few years for updates is not such a big deal.
:D

TzeentchForPresident
17-09-2008, 10:08
Most of us would be more than happy just to get a new codex that brings our wargear, points costs, etc, into 5th edition. I wouldn't turn down some new models, especially a special character or two, but just update my >expletive redacted< rules. Oh, and separate codices please. NO SUPERDEX. SoB are NOT part of the inquisition. They are the muscle of the ecclesiarchy. They work for inquisitors in the same capacity as IG and SM do. Until you roll IG and SM into C:I, I demand the same courtesy for my sisters:wtf:

But what if there was one codex with 2 separate armylists then? In 2nd of epic Space Marine there was expansions like that; "Warlords" had rules for Orks and Squats and "Renegades" had rules for Eldar and Chaos. The obvious drawback is that you will only use half the codex when making the army. But there are 2 positive benefits though.
1. Even if having 2 different armies in same codex isn´t a cure for codex creep the chanse is pretty big they will be balanced towards each other.
2. Even if you only use half the codex when making your army it will be benefit you greatly to have rules at hand when you you are facing the other army in the codex in a battle. I buy codexes just to keep track of the rules of my enemies so I know their weakness and most of all so I don´t get cheated.

The other option is to have one codex and 2 semi-separeted army lists. Something like that was done in the 3.5 CSM codex, pages 12-38 had rules for what the legions had in common, page 40-62 had fluff and rules specific for the Legions. That way it was possible of having 9 army lists for the Legions(+ all untold numbers of renegades using the Black Legion rules) in one codex just 80 pages long.

However I fully, 100% agree with you that having GK and WH using the same army list in one huge bloated codex must not happen, too much will be lost, as we have seen what happend with the Legions in the 4.0 CSM codex.

AdmiralDick
17-09-2008, 12:43
not that its carries much weight, but its my opinion that having a DH and WH book actually does more damage to the concepts of the armies than not having them. the large the selection of units the more watered down any concept has to become. in my opinion the DH book is a shining example of this. Grey Knight Terminators were amazing in 2nd Ed. everyone wanted some and every one thought that it was the best game ever when they made an appearence (or at least i did because i was twelve). now the DH book has had to seriously water down the concept to try and fill out the force organisation chart. then there is a huge amount of redundancy and repetition. and in today's "one army one codex" design philosophy that is only going to get worse. so my solution would be to do away with DH and WH and write three other codexes.

Codex: IG, in which there would be a special character Inquisitor of the Ordo Malleus, and a special character unit of Grey Knight Terminators.

Codex: Forces of the Ecclesiarchy, in which the Sisters would return with all the crazy units employed by the Ecclesiarchy and their would be a special character Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus.

and finally Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis Exploritor Team (or something altogether more snappy), in which the AdMech would finally get their long awaited battlefield debut and a special character Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos and a Death Watch Kill Team could feature.

of course the special characters would be customisable, so you would not be limited to one specific example, but you would keep the inquisition as special as it deserves to be. and if players really, really, really want to field and entire army of GK, there is nothing to stop them from doing so in Apoc, where the situation would be infinitely more likely. to assist with this GW could produce Datasheets for some extra units to round out the forces a little (GK Captains, Chaplains, Dreadnoughts, Landraiders and DW Librarians, scout bikers and the like).

i think that that is the the simplest solution, with the greatest long term benefit, although i can easily see why that might upset some players (GK ones specifically).

Elric of Grans
18-09-2008, 00:34
I think a big Inquisition codex would be pretty nice and I think you would be pretty upset if somebody soggested to scrap your favourite army. ;)

This is my favourite army. I play Ecclesiarchy. Codex: Witch Hunters is basically Codex: Ecclesiarcy, with an Inquisitor, a couple of Assassins and some guardsmen stuck in. Stupid units better put with the rest of the guard. Those slots could have been used to give the Sisters some things they may actually use.

Theola
19-09-2008, 04:42
I think they have the most amazing fluff in the game, and they show off the insane, religious, paranoid side of the Imperium very well. I don't really care what they do with Inquisitors/Witchunters/Daemonhunters as long as they don't scrap them. Make one big Codex: Inquisition? Sure! Make Grey Knights more of a regular Space Marine Chapter? Ok! Even if they remove them as standalone armies and just shove them in as allies for Space Marines and Guard, I wouldn't mind. I'd just hate to see the amazing things like assassins and acro-flagellants disappear altogether. :(

gorgon
19-09-2008, 19:00
I'm inclined to believe you, GK's were cool all the while they were this very occasional unit of extra hard Psychic Terminators, I doubt it's going to be undone though.

I tend to agree that they were cooler when they were supermen even among SM.

Then again, my opinion is that the basic Chaos codex should be less about CSMs and more about motley Chaos armies led by extra-tough bada$$ CSM veterans. *shrug*


White Dwarf / Online PDF codex anybody?

This would be a valid way to update both the Witch Hunter and Daemon Hunter codex books without the huge investment required in putting out a complete army book with all the pomp and ceremony that would need to go into it.

G.W. have proven that they are willing to go down this route again with the Blood Angels and the temporary Warriors of Chaos lists. Some foreign G.W. websites apparently even put the Daemon Hunter army book online as a free PDF to download.

Jervis has made it pretty clear that WD codices will be a rarity. The business plan is about a big army release with a full codex and lots of new miniatures, etc. It would have been *easy* for them to release an updated LatD list in WD, which would push models from several different lines. But it's not part of the plan.


I know GW wants to stream line their products and produce only things that sell well. However, having armies like =][= keep the 40k community from becoming to stagnate. In my opinion stagnation is the most likely killer of 40k, high prices aside.

I tend to agree. Whether GW understands it or not, the expansive nature of the 40K universe is a factor in keeping players around for the long term. When I started in RT, the setting was only beginning to be fleshed out and seemed full of endless opportunities. But even as new armies and alien species became codifed and part of the game, the universe kept expanding. After all, the galaxy is a big place and all of our collective imaginations can't really fill it.

As armies disappear (and we're in a contraction period now), somehow the galaxy and the game seem like a smaller, less interesting place. Boo.

IMO, the opportunity is there for GW to address both the =][= forces and LatD. Somehow it feels like the two have a natural link since they're natural adversaries. They'd make for a great back-to-back codex release, IMO. It'd certainly take some creative thinking, but it's doable.

The trouble is that GW has no plans for LatD, and as time goes by you have to wonder about their commitment to =][= armies too. Remember that Andy C. was the SoB advocate in the studio (and I think the LatD designer too), and he's long gone.