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Deus Mechanicus
13-09-2008, 18:37
And i mean that partially as a good thing. But c'om i can live with the fact that they get a rule based on them (Combat Tactics) and gets the most characters (6 out of 11) but it does say something about the mentality when theres a note in the codex that says

"This army list is based first and foremost around the Ultramarines, but can also be used to collect an army that follows the Codex Astartes"

I don't know, maybe GW should have just made a Codex: Space Marines.

Templar Ben
13-09-2008, 18:41
That would be nice.

But then you would have more complaints as you have C: DA, C: BT, C: SW and P: BA (pamphlet) with the addition of two for C: U and C: SM you would have the Xenos only guys howling.

0ld1eye
13-09-2008, 18:42
It's appealing to the snotty 10-year olds who all want an uber-cool badass army of space men with lots of armour and guns.
They don't want creepy or flawed, so DA or BA are out of the question. Yellow isn't serious enough, so no IF. White is poncy, no WS. Blue or black is great, so DT, CF and SMurfs take the foreground. IMHO. TBH.

How many acronyms can I use in a single post, I wonder...?

Kiro
13-09-2008, 18:51
Yellow isn't serious enough, so no IF

Ha! That probably explains why I've always thought there was something...wrong with them! :D

HsojVvad
13-09-2008, 19:00
But when most of the pictures are Ultra Marines, he is correct, it should have been called C: UM

When I was flipping through it, it didn't seem like a SM codex, but UM codex. And with it saying it can be any army just use the Special Characters and just change the names. I guess this can be any codex astartes army but that is a lazy way out.

Why bother call it SM codex then if we have to make up all our names, and fluff then? If it's Codex Space Marines, then have it alot of chapters not just one main chapter.

The Guy
13-09-2008, 19:04
The last true SM codex was the 3rd ed one.

I just hope they don't do the same with IG and make it Codex Cadian 8th.

[Like last time....]

PondaNagura
13-09-2008, 19:08
i think GW is stuck with the mentality of the last dex where flufwise : codex astartes yadda yadda UM, yadda yadda wrote and/or organized marine chapters the way they are.

last edition fine no problem.
but i figure GW forgets that not everyone knows that, or even cares. but since there are already a bunch of UM models in production, it's easier for them to use existing art, models paint scheme, rather than go about having to continually remake everything...
probably has to do with design team time commitments and marketing is so much easier when there's already an established stuff to work from.

have they forgotten how cool the 3rd edition dex was with all sorts of existing chapters, or even encouraged do it yourself? probably.

but in the long run, bite the bullet, grow a pair, and play the game, because really does it affect you, personally, that much?

Inq. Veltane
13-09-2008, 20:32
Just make the Ultramarines go back to actually being a Codex Chapter....

wilycoyote
13-09-2008, 20:36
Mmmmm..looking from the outside looking in (I play nids or orks) I do not see what there is to cry about. My understanding is that this is Codex Space marine, the blueprint for the Astartes set up. Who are the sticklers for the orthodox set up, the UM, so it stands to reason that they would be heavily favoured.

I agree that there should have been more Chapters represented in the codex, if only that meant you did not get separate releases for the ones who do not follow the party line. Allowing for a more rapid turnaround for everyone who does not want to play 8ft supermen.

Radium
13-09-2008, 20:48
Just make the Ultramarines go back to actually being a Codex Chapter....

Agreed, the smurfs always seem to get non-codex stuff (honour guard, tyrannic war veterans, all the new stuff) that is NOT codex. Pretty weird if you ask me...

And 6 out of 11 really makes for a C:UM instead of C:SM.

Splagbot
13-09-2008, 21:29
I haven't got the new codex but I have to say that the things said here about it don't really surprise me, Ultramarines are the bread and butter of GW and this is for in my opinion one reason, blue is easy to paint.

I GW's whole marketing philosophy is based around releasing models that have easy to apply colour schemes, the main character legions or regiments and such are all easy to paint, this is done because they want nice easy and high profile armies for people new to the hobby to latch onto, as a big Imperial Fists fan this doesn't please me, but it makes good business sense.

Ambu
13-09-2008, 21:47
Because the Smurfs are the basis of all the marines. They have been the emblem of what SM are. I even known tourneys to allow Smurf characters for player made chapters because they were the 'generic' mold of the marines.

EDIT: BTW, being a former DA player it doesn't bother me in the least that Smurfs are getting some love. They were the first and most common from the original 40k.

Vishok
13-09-2008, 21:54
The last true SM codex was the 3rd ed one.



You mean the first.

I consider the 4th ed Codex for Space Marines to be definitive, Chapter Traits might have been lopsided but it did allow for the character I think you guys are wanting to emanate from the book.

And by the way, they did name the 2nd Edition Codex for Space Marines Codex: Ultramarines.

Now, it's called Space Marines but it's based on Ultramarines.

Wait...

It's always been that way.

This isn't any different.

:o

matt_17
13-09-2008, 22:44
Centring a codex that is meant to represent a wide range of distinct armies on one of those armies is a habit GW have gotten into in order to keep things simple. Its simpler to put in all the units from one chapter in and let you change the names where appropriate than it is to put in units from different chapters and them apply restrictions based on what chapter you're using.

GW do it all the time: IG are basically Codex: Cadians, CSM are basically Codex: Black Legion (though their special characters are admittedly better split up) - its just a little more pronounced in the SM dex.

I don't see anything wrong with it, personally and I'd rather have things the way they are than sit and wait for more marine books while the alien races get left in the cold.

Stingray_tm
13-09-2008, 22:48
They should have left out most of the special characters and use the space in the book instead in order to describe special rules and units for Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and giving those armies access to the new toys). Then they should have called it Codex: Space Marines.

Splagbot
13-09-2008, 23:14
They should have left out most of the special characters and use the space in the book instead in order to describe special rules and units for Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and giving those armies access to the new toys). Then they should have called it Codex: Space Marines.

I dissagree with this argument, all the chapters you mentioned there are different in terms of both background and rules, to pile them all into one codex would be a huge mistake and a rather large slap in the face to all the people that collect them, Codex Space Marines should be for Codex chapters only, sadly it seems GW decided to take that one step farther and have it lean heavily towards Ultramarines, but like I said it makes good business sense to have your main army easy to paint as it makes them more accessible.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-09-2008, 23:18
They were the first and most common from the original 40k.

Nah, that was the Crimson Fists.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
13-09-2008, 23:51
Yellow is way too badass for them, so no IF.

There. I thought there was something wrong with that sentence..

0ld1eye
13-09-2008, 23:58
Meh, have it your way, but yellow warriors aren't really badass tbh. Badass, for me anyway, implies going Rambo in the rear of enemy lines, which you can't really do in bright yellow armour. If standing on top of a wall or in front like a bunch of lemons (haha) while doing nothing but shoot for several weeks straight is your idea of hardcore, so be it. Me, I like up close and personal.
Besides, yellow warriors always get their asses whupped, just look at Iyanden.

sabre4190
14-09-2008, 00:26
if it were codex ultras, then they wouldn't put any other special characters in there. They do allow for some other styles, but most chapters do use the codex style of fighting.

Neftus
14-09-2008, 00:56
They should have left out most of the special characters and use the space in the book instead in order to describe special rules and units for Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and giving those armies access to the new toys). Then they should have called it Codex: Space Marines.

Having a 1,000,000 different special rules and army builds in one codex just begs for imbalances.

The system they're using now works just fine as long as they don't get too generic like they did with CSM.

0ld1eye
14-09-2008, 00:57
*sniff* I shall mourn the true grit death guard armies with hordes of hilarious nurglings and unnaturally tough vehicles with every infection known to man.
:(

Slaaneshi Slave
14-09-2008, 01:01
*sniff* I shall mourn the true grit death guard armies with hordes of hilarious nurglings and unnaturally tough vehicles with every infection known to man.
:(

And what does that have to do with the loyalist Marine book?

Deadboytat2
14-09-2008, 01:03
I wish they would make a codex: Salamanders that would make me happy. lol

Slaaneshi Slave
14-09-2008, 01:06
They do! Yellow wash your Ultramarines and only take flamers! Hey presto, Salamanders. Which is the whole point. ;)

Othiem
14-09-2008, 01:08
*sniff* I shall mourn the true grit death guard armies with hordes of hilarious nurglings and unnaturally tough vehicles with every infection known to man.
:(

Why mourn true grit? It would be a nerf compared to the current codex, since all your plague marines come default with bolter and bolt pistol anyways. But yeah, nurglings need to make a come back.

0ld1eye
14-09-2008, 01:10
The brief mention of CSM?
Sorry, I'm in an emotionally fragile state, haven't got over the death of the old CSM codex yet, and even the slightest mention can send me into unstoppable tears. Srsly.

Anyway, back on topic. GW should have gone one of two ways; either keep a SM vanilla codex in which the only difference between the chapters is colour scheme, or, the way they're going at the moment, a whole new codex for every major chapter. However, I'll agree that the SM codex is very biased towards SMurfs, but that's because most other major chapters do have their own codex; they had to have something for players of less prominent or made-up chapters to base their armies on, so they couldn't call if codex: ultramarines or said players would have felt obliged to play their forces AS ultramarines.

EDIT: @ slaaneshi slave.

@ othiem: true grit gave them character, even if it was a disadvantage. They just seemed so much cooler.

Luisjoey
14-09-2008, 09:10
GW should change the Space marines simbolic Ultramarines for a new one, maybe Imperial Fists! :D is the second most vanilla!

Koryphaus
14-09-2008, 09:20
Really it should be called Codex: Imperial Fists, as they are, if anything, more Codex adherent than even the Ultramarines. There just aren't many photos of them. Ah yes, I have fond memories of the 3rd ed codex, with all the pictures of Crimson Fists, Storm Lords, White panthers, Black Templars..

Old1eye, can you honestly get any more badass than walking around beating people to death with a god-almighty hammer? Anyway, you're not a real Space Marine if you aren't wearing yellow.. Everyone knows that! :p

march10k
14-09-2008, 10:18
GW should change the Space marines simbolic Ultramarines for a new one, maybe Imperial Fists! :D is the second most vanilla!


Just make the Ultramarines go back to actually being a Codex Chapter....

Uh...yeah. Even Dark Angels are more codex-adherent than Ultramarines :rolleyes:

Imperial Fists FTW!

Stingray_tm
14-09-2008, 11:01
Having a 1,000,000 different special rules and army builds in one codex just begs for imbalances.

The system they're using now works just fine as long as they don't get too generic like they did with CSM.

Oh, you mean unlike having 1,000,000 different special characters, that change the whole way the army plays (bikes as troops, etc.)? Or having 1,000,000 special rules spread over 4 books, that all are essentially the same and redundant?
Blood Angels and Ultramarines have a LOT of units, that are very similiar. Many things in the two codizes just are essentially copy and paste. We have Land Raider army list entries in 5 codizes... So just use the 1,000,000 different special rules, that are spread over 4 codizes, and put it in one. Where is the problem? They already made a gigantic book, but there is a lot of useless pages, that could be used to incorporate rules for Blood Angels, etc.
It would probably mean, that BA and the rest will lose some of their specialties, but on the other hand all the whining about them not being able to use the new SM stuff and the differences of Scouts in different armies would vanish.
So BA would not have an own codex? Boohoo, Craftworld Ulthwe has no own codex either. But with my suggestion BA at least would have special rules.
A slap in the face for BA/DA/SW players, if they kept their rules, but wouldn't have 60 pages of shiny pictures, fluff and rules, that essentially are the same for all Marines? Well, i am totally on your side, when i see Codex:Ulthwe, Codex:Death Guard or Codex:Behemoth on the shelves... Boohoo, poor Marine players, who get way to few attention by GW...
My opinion is, that GW should have handled the Chaos Legions exactly as they were in the 3.5 codex and additionaly, all variant SM chapters with their own codex should have been handled exactly the same way in the new codex. (2-3 pages for everyone.), replacing their 4th edition codex.

Bran Dawri
14-09-2008, 12:00
Meh, have it your way, but yellow warriors aren't really badass tbh. Badass, for me anyway, implies going Rambo in the rear of enemy lines, which you can't really do in bright yellow armour. If standing on top of a wall or in front like a bunch of lemons (haha) while doing nothing but shoot for several weeks straight is your idea of hardcore, so be it. Me, I like up close and personal.
Besides, yellow warriors always get their asses whupped, just look at Iyanden.


So, I take it you're a Wolf player, then?

Splagbot
14-09-2008, 12:38
A slap in the face for BA/DA/SW players, if they kept their rules, but wouldn't have 60 pages of shiny pictures, fluff and rules, that essentially are the same for all Marines? Well, i am totally on your side, when i see Codex:Ulthwe, Codex:Death Guard or Codex:Behemoth on the shelves... Boohoo, poor Marine players, who get way to few attention by GW...

You're being a little obtuse there matey, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves are suitably different from the codex chapters to warrant their own codex. they have a wealth of background going back years and putting them in a codex with all the others would compromise the background and their rules which add flavour to list by the way, Death Guard it has been shown can be handled with a few pages of coverage and as for Codex Behemoth, you're not really being serious are you?:rolleyes:


Imperial Fists FTW!

Yeah, Imperial Fists rock the house, you can say what you want about their colour of their armour, but other chapters can fanny about sneaking around sneaming about behind the enemy in their dark armour, the Imperial Fists are going to be the ones standing in front of the enemy waiting to hand out a good thrashing, I've always said it, you want to play it safe wear blue, but real men wear yellow!:D

Adra
14-09-2008, 12:49
Badass, for me anyway, implies going Rambo in the rear of enemy lines, which you can't really do in bright yellow armour.

Teehee....sorry im a child.... :angel:

Anyway im all for smurfs getting the love....as Dylan Moran says "All men dream about smurfs."

GW seem to really love their smurfs but are a bit shy about it because they are so generic, so they sneek their love out in small ways.

Stingray_tm
14-09-2008, 12:52
You're being a little obtuse there matey, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves are suitably different from the codex chapters to warrant their own codex. they have a wealth of background going back years and putting them in a codex with all the others would compromise the background and their rules which add flavour to list by the way, Death Guard it has been shown can be handled with a few pages of coverage and as for Codex Behemoth, you're not really being serious are you?:rolleyes:


Of course i am serious. The variant chapters only have that background, because GW decided to give them background in order to make more Space Marine codizes. If GW could decide to send them the way of the Squats (who also had their own codex and background) and no amount of previous background would save you.
On the other hand, if GW decided to make more fluff for Behemoth, it would justify a codex.
The only difference here is, that Space Marines are GW moneymakers, nothing else. There is no real other justification for not having a Craftworld codex, aswell.
And are you seriously telling me, that the rules differences between the different chapters can not be explained in 5-10 pages (which you could have in the Space Marine codex by simply removing 5 or 6 special characters and the same repetitive army showcase nonsense?).
I am not talking about taking the existing chapters rules and put them into the book. I am talking about using the new Space Marine codex, start from there and then add something to make BA, etc. more unique (like Death Company). That's all.
Also, what are the differences between Vanilla Marines and variant chapters now? The other chapters have access to fewer equipment, not to more units. Does that justify an own codex?

Bunnahabhain
14-09-2008, 13:10
I say again...

Generic marine codex, covering all loyalist chapters. Their rules don't diverge enough to warrant separate codex's. All the special units can be produced from codex ones with a few simple special rules. Codex to contain rules only.

Some kind of traits systems, but actually balanced. List of traits for the established chapters.


Chapter background in separate books. Maybe 2-3 chapters per book, with chapters with similarities grouped together
Ultramarines and Imperial fists- codex chapters
Blood angels, space wolves- captive daemons?
Dark angels, Black templars- Loyal renegades?

Stingray_tm
14-09-2008, 13:15
Yeah, outsource chapter specific fluff to Black Library.

0ld1eye
14-09-2008, 13:46
So, I take it you're a Wolf player, then?

Hell, I don't even play marines :p

Splagbot
14-09-2008, 13:46
Of course i am serious. The variant chapters only have that background, because GW decided to give them background in order to make more Space Marine codizes.

That's one point of view I guess, but I personally reckon that it was because they recognised that the background was so different that they though they'd try to add a little flavour by adding some special rules and make them a little different, by gving them their own special characters to add even more flavour to people's armies.


If GW could decide to send them the way of the Squats (who also had their own codex and background) and no amount of previous background would save you.

Well I have to say that I missed a trick with Codex Squats as I seem to have to remember having to make do with a really bad thrown together army list in a little pamphlet I got 40K Second Edition.


On the other hand, if GW decided to make more fluff for Behemoth, it would justify a codex.

No it wouldn't justify a codex, it would justify an article in White Dwarf, if they wanted to create some flavoursome rules and add special characters, well that would warrant a codex.


The only difference here is, that Space Marines are GW moneymakers, nothing else.

You're not far wrong, that's how it is now likely, back in the days of Second Edition I reckon it was through a desire to add a little flavour.


There is no real other justification for not having a Craftworld codex, aswell.

Incorrect, the fact that it's been proven that Craftworld Eldar can be done all from one codex, that'd be like giving every Imperial Guard regiment their own codex, the current Imperial Guards codex allows for variation in army make up, as does Codex Eldar with the different Craftworlds.


And are you seriously telling me, that the rules differences between the different chapters can not be explained in 5-10 pages (which you could have in the Space Marine codex by simply removing 5 or 6 special characters and the same repetitive army showcase nonsense?).

Yes I am telling you that, how do you explain in 5 or 10 pages that Black Templars have scouts in their tactical squads, the differences between Grey Hunters and normal Tactical Marines, Death Company and Wolf Guards rules, to try to fit all of that and more into 5 or 10 pages and then having to try to shoehorn some special characters in there, maybe a little background if there's a page or two left, it'd be one seriously messed up codex in my opinion.


I am not talking about taking the existing chapters rules and put them into the book. I am talking about using the new Space Marine codex, start from there and then add something to make BA, etc. more unique (like Death Company). That's all.

I know what you're saying and if you had your way then all Space Marine chapters would be virtually the same with only a paint scheme to tell them apart, no flavour what so ever and in background oriented game that'd be criminal.


Also, what are the differences between Vanilla Marines and variant chapters now? The other chapters have access to fewer equipment, not to more units. Does that justify an own codex?

Yes in some cases they have less units, but having more units isn't the reason why they have their own codex, it's how the fewer units operate differently than their equivelants in other Space Marine armies, their special characters and in some cases units that can't represented in any other list.

Stingray_tm
14-09-2008, 13:55
Sorry, Splagbot, but your point seems to be, that Space Marines deserve more fluff and more codizes, just because they are Space Marines, and Non-Space Marines don't deserve more fluff and codizes, because they are not Space Marines.
Space Marine chapters are important, so they need own codizes, Craftworlds or other Non-Space Marine variants are not important, so they only should get a White Dwarf article (if any article at all).

Newsflash: There are no Space Marines. There are no Eldar. There is no real life, that decides, how much real fluff there is for a certain army. It is all about how much GW wants to fluff this stuff out. GW changes fluff in retrospect all the time. If GW decided to release 20 Craftworld books with a lot of special rules (like an all Harlequin army), your reaction seems to be:
"But they are not Space Marines! They don't deserve that!"
And because probably you are playing Space Marines, i guess. That's quite hypocritical.

At least, that's how i see it from your comments.

Splagbot
14-09-2008, 14:22
Sorry, Splagbot, but your point seems to be, that Space Marines deserve more fluff and more codizes, just because they are Space Marines, and Non-Space Marines don't deserve more fluff and codizes, because they are not Space Marines.
Space Marine chapters are important, so they need own codizes, Craftworlds or other Non-Space Marine variants are not important, so they only should get a White Dwarf article (if any article at all).

No that's not my point, my point is this and please read it properly this time so that you understand it, if all they plan on doing with an army race or other such thing is to release background then that's not the basis for a codex, if they want to give them their own rules and special characters then that's different, I really wouldn't be bothered if they released a codex for every Craftworld and the like, I like reading them, but if they have no new rules or special characters to offer then it's pointless releasing a codex for them, you may as well just do a background book along the same lines as Index Astartes or Tactica Imperialis.


Newsflash: There are no Space Marines. There are no Eldar. There is no real life, that decides, how much real fluff there is for a certain army. It is all about how much GW wants to fluff this stuff out. GW changes fluff in retrospect all the time. If GW decided to release 20 Craftworld books with a lot of special rules (like an all Harlequin army),

Oh my god, it's not real, you mean that I'm not living in the Imperium and that Space Marines don't exist, that I'm not the Colonel of my own Imperial Guard infantry regiment....bummer!:(


your reaction seems to be:
"But they are not Space Marines! They don't deserve that!"

If you'd taken care to read my posts you'd see something quite different.


And because probably you are playing Space Marines, i guess. That's quite hypocritical.

I don't own a Space Marine army, I never have owned a Space Marine army and bearing in mind my love of Imperial Guard and all the tanky goodness that Forge World offers, I likely never will.


At least, that's how i see it from your comments.

:rolleyes:

Panzerkanzler
14-09-2008, 14:30
Newsflash: There are no Space Marines. There are no Eldar. There is no real life, that decides, how much real fluff there is for a certain army. It is all about how much GW wants to fluff this stuff out. GW changes fluff in retrospect all the time. If GW decided to release 20 Craftworld books with a lot of special rules (like an all Harlequin army), your reaction seems to be:
"But they are not Space Marines! They don't deserve that!"
And because probably you are playing Space Marines, i guess. That's quite hypocritical.

I agree that it's disgusting how the Space Marines smother the codex releases with their, IMO, redundant crap. But by your own logic, that fluff exists purely as an incentive from GW's side to sell more minis, it seems that SM's ARE warranted to have their "fluff" and codexes. GW sells minis, SM minis sell good, and why would GW change a winning concept? Again, I hate, with all my heart, the overwhelming torrent of SM crap that GW produces, but I don't really understand why it makes you so angry. It's GW's game, they get to decide what race/faction deserves what, and they seem to be very happy selling SM's. By that very virtue they DO deserve separate codexes and a bloated mini range. I hope I didn't misunderstand your point.

Stingray_tm
14-09-2008, 14:33
I agree that it's disgusting how the Space Marines smother the codex releases with their, IMO, redundant crap. But by your own logic, that fluff exists purely as an incentive from GW's side to sell more minis, it seems that SM's ARE warranted to have their "fluff" and codexes. GW sells minis, SM minis sell good, and why would GW change a winning concept? Again, I hate, with all my heart, the overwhelming torrent of SM crap that GW produces, but I don't really understand why it makes you so angry. It's GW's game, they get to decide what race/faction deserves what, and they seem to be very happy selling SM's. By that very virtue they DO deserve separate codexes and a bloated mini range. I hope I didn't misunderstand your point.

There is a difference between what capitalism dictates and what is fair. I don't think they DESERVE seperate codizes, it makes sense from a financial point of view. But i try not to mix moral concepts with capitalism.
Yeah, that's how the world works, but it doesn't mean i have to like it or stay silent about it.

Before someone (not looking at anyone specific, but at people who do this kind of stuff) points out, that i can't change anything by posting my complaints on this board: You won't change or do anything by posting your views on this board either. So please unregister from Warseer. Thank you.

Kalec
14-09-2008, 19:48
There is a difference between what capitalism dictates and what is fair. I don't think they DESERVE seperate codizes, it makes sense from a financial point of view. But i try not to mix moral concepts with capitalism.
Yeah, that's how the world works, but it doesn't mean i have to like it or stay silent about it.

Before someone (not looking at anyone specific, but at people who do this kind of stuff) points out, that i can't change anything by posting my complaints on this board: You won't change or do anything by posting your views on this board either. So please unregister from Warseer. Thank you.

You won't change anything by posting your views on this board either. So please unregister from Warseer. Thank you.

505
14-09-2008, 20:45
sure make it codex ultramarines so that gives them a reason to do
codex-whitescars
codex raven guard
codex-rainbow warriors
codex-crimsons fists
codex-imperial fists
codex----oh never mind you get the idea. if you limit to just ultramarinse with a phrase saying you can do others with the list. every yahoo will want their own book

its not like blood angels, dark angels, and black templars are super different from ultra marines none of them are different enough to warrent their own book. nothing that couldnt be adjusted through a small trait system

HsojVvad
14-09-2008, 21:53
Problem is it should have been just Codex SM not Codex Ultramarines. Because now if you are not using Ultra Marines, basically every SM codex besids, Ultra, DA, BA, BT and SW are "count as armies" now.

I think that is why people are so upset with UM being represented on the codex SM. It makes the other armies "counts as" instead of being a real army to be represented. If GW didn't make that quote about being as counts as, things would be a bit different.

Stingray_tm
14-09-2008, 23:40
You won't change anything by posting your views on this board either. So please unregister from Warseer. Thank you.

Good job on completely missing the point and not understanding a single word of what i wrote!

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-09-2008, 06:13
Emperor, this thread is getting snarky. This one, I think, took the cake.


You won't change anything by posting your views on this board either. So please unregister from Warseer. Thank you.

Hooray maturity!

Pika_power
16-09-2008, 07:02
Okey-dokey.

I could give each Space marine army a small spot in the SM book. It would fit. There is nothing more creative about Black Templars than World Eaters. If world eaters can be compressed into 5-10 pages of text, there is no reason Templars cannot.

cailus
16-09-2008, 07:10
I find it amazing that GW focuses so much on Ultramarines because they are the most boring of all the main chapters:

Ultramarines - generic good guys, no personality or character. Even lamer than most action hero characters.
Dark Angels - dark history, Machavelian, potentially traitorous
Space Wolves - violent, barbaric yet noble savages
Crimson Fists - trying to overcome a great tragedy
Blood Angels - noble yet with a dark secret
Black Templars - crusading zealots
Imperial Fists - stubborn borderline zealots

The Ultramarines are actually not 40K enough for me and I'd be happy if the Nids ate them.

I'd much prefer the main chapter to be the Imperial Fists with their stubborness and overall much cooler yellow paint scheme.

ReveredChaplainDrake
16-09-2008, 08:50
I find it amazing that GW focuses so much on Ultramarines because they are the most boring of all the main chapters:

Ultramarines - generic good guys, no personality or character. Even lamer than most action hero characters.
Dark Angels - dark history, Machavelian, potentially traitorous
Space Wolves - violent, barbaric yet noble savages
Crimson Fists - trying to overcome a great tragedy
Blood Angels - noble yet with a dark secret
Black Templars - crusading zealots
Imperial Fists - stubborn borderline zealots
It would be better and less bland if GW didn't have this fluff anathema for everything old. There used to be a lot of fluff on Roboutte Guilliman as a Primarch, as there was for every legion and primarch that can now only be found on Wikipedia, and that stuff actually made Ultramarines unique. The "character" and "personality" that you're missing is that they're like ancient Roman centurions of the 41st Millennium. I haven't checked the fluff of the new Marine codex yet, but maybe there will finally be something in there about Ultramarines' backstory. Y'know, other than Behemoth turning their 1st Company into beef jerkey. (Fun fact: There was actually more Ultramarine fluff in the Tyranid codex than the entirety of the 4th ed Marine Codex.)


The Ultramarines are actually not 40K enough for me and I'd be happy if the Nids ate them.
That said, I'll do my best to oblige. :D


I'd much prefer the main chapter to be the Imperial Fists with their stubborness and overall much cooler yellow paint scheme.
Not to mention the fact that the Ultramarines are based on Macragge, nearly the breadth of the entire galaxy away from Holy Terra. The Imperial Fists, however, are actually based on Terra. That alone should've clinched it.

shin'keiro
16-09-2008, 14:10
Why not call it Codex: Ultramarines instead

Because it's Codex Space marines - and any Ultramarines character can be used in ANY space marines army, painted how you want!

Staurikosaurus
16-09-2008, 14:34
I agree with Shin'keiro.

If the OP and many others actually bothered to READ the new space marine codex you'd note the following few points:

1. You can field any character in your army

2. You can paint your army in any way you like

3. You can construct your army in any way you like, according to the codex, just like everyone else does with their armies

4. The book deals with the chapters that follow the Codex Astartes. The golden standard of these is the Ultramarines, thus they are most prominent in the book. If you read further, the vast majority of the codex chapters are successor foundings of the Ultramarines. Does this mean they are Ultramarines? No.

5. How is a book with 48 pages of fluff and background information (before you hit the unit descriptions) called bland? If you don't like the fluff that's fine, but that is in no way bland. I'm sure if you got a codex for your forces with that many pages denoted to background and history you wouldn't call it bland.

Darthvegeta800
16-09-2008, 18:19
Sorry, Splagbot, but your point seems to be, that Space Marines deserve more fluff and more codizes, just because they are Space Marines, and Non-Space Marines don't deserve more fluff and codizes, because they are not Space Marines.
Space Marine chapters are important, so they need own codizes, Craftworlds or other Non-Space Marine variants are not important, so they only should get a White Dwarf article (if any article at all).

Newsflash: There are no Space Marines. There are no Eldar. There is no real life, that decides, how much real fluff there is for a certain army. It is all about how much GW wants to fluff this stuff out. GW changes fluff in retrospect all the time. If GW decided to release 20 Craftworld books with a lot of special rules (like an all Harlequin army), your reaction seems to be:
"But they are not Space Marines! They don't deserve that!"
And because probably you are playing Space Marines, i guess. That's quite hypocritical.

At least, that's how i see it from your comments.

100 percent agreed.
The codices in my eyes should be slightly bigger and continue the streamlined pattern from before.
There really isn't a need to have all those Chapters possess their own codex. A few extra pages is more than enough.
It'll also ensure that all factions get updated more often.

avatar of kaine
16-09-2008, 18:44
ultramarines are starch arses

completely agree with him and thats why we hate smurfs plus GW makes them do everything and don't give anything else a go....

HsojVvad
16-09-2008, 19:05
I agree with Shin'keiro.

If the OP and many others actually bothered to READ the new space marine codex you'd note the following few points:

Did you actually bothered to READ the codex? Maybe you missed the part on page 127 I believe where is says: Ultramaines and other chapters "This army is Based First and Formost on the Ultramines but can be made using other armies" or something like that. Funny that is also in the DA codex as well and that is called Dark Angels Codex. That is why I say this is Ulramarines Codex. 6 out of 11 Special Characters are UM. That is more than 50%.

So I take it as an UM codex.




1. You can field any character in your army

2. You can paint your army in any way you like

3. You can construct your army in any way you like, according to the codex, just like everyone else does with their armies

Same as in the DA codex again.



4. The book deals with the chapters that follow the Codex Astartes. The golden standard of these is the Ultramarines, thus they are most prominent in the book. If you read further, the vast majority of the codex chapters are successor foundings of the Ultramarines. Does this mean they are Ultramarines? No. [\QUOTE]

Acctually yes that does make them Ulramarines. They are a successor chapter but are still Ultramarines, just like in DA they are a successor DA chapter.

[QUOTE]
5. How is a book with 48 pages of fluff and background information (before you hit the unit descriptions) called bland? If you don't like the fluff that's fine, but that is in no way bland. I'm sure if you got a codex for your forces with that many pages denoted to background and history you wouldn't call it bland.

never had chance to read the fluff, waiting to buy the codex so it's new to me. I don't want to read everything before I buy it. So what is the fluff about? SM or UM?

HsojVvad
16-09-2008, 19:08
I agree with Shin'keiro.

If the OP and many others actually bothered to READ the new space marine codex you'd note the following few points:

Did you actually bothered to READ the codex? Maybe you missed the part on page 127 I believe where is says: Ultramaines and other chapters "This army is Based First and Formost on the Ultramines but can be made using other armies" or something like that. Funny that is also in the DA codex as well and that is called Dark Angels Codex. That is why I say this is Ulramarines Codex. 6 out of 11 Special Characters are UM. That is more than 50%.

So I take it as an UM codex.




1. You can field any character in your army

2. You can paint your army in any way you like

3. You can construct your army in any way you like, according to the codex, just like everyone else does with their armies

Same as in the DA codex again.




4. The book deals with the chapters that follow the Codex Astartes. The golden standard of these is the Ultramarines, thus they are most prominent in the book. If you read further, the vast majority of the codex chapters are successor foundings of the Ultramarines. Does this mean they are Ultramarines? No. [\QUOTE]

Acctually yes that does make them Ulramarines. They are a successor chapter but are still Ultramarines, just like in DA they are a successor DA chapter.

[QUOTE]

5. How is a book with 48 pages of fluff and background information (before you hit the unit descriptions) called bland? If you don't like the fluff that's fine, but that is in no way bland. I'm sure if you got a codex for your forces with that many pages denoted to background and history you wouldn't call it bland.

never had chance to read the fluff, waiting to buy the codex so it's new to me. I don't want to read everything before I buy it. So what is the fluff about? SM or UM?

Slaaneshi Slave
16-09-2008, 20:27
Bland is a word that is thrown around way too much on this forum these days. Started by Chaos players, now taken up about the new Marine codex. Two books which are anything but "bland". I think people should take a trip to their local book shop and buy a dictionary.

HsojVvad
16-09-2008, 21:09
I wouldn't say that Ultramarines are bland, but rather inticing, but when I looked at the SM codex, it didn't seem SM too me, but Ultramarnie. The problem I have is that it's suppose to be called Space Marnine, but I don't see it anywhere. (Mind you I only flipped through it for 5 minutes, so I can be horribly incorrect) but from what I saw it's all UM.

I guess the problem is people wanted a SM codex, not Codex UM and people had to have their armies as "counts as" witch is clearly stated in the book.

Splagbot
16-09-2008, 21:21
100 percent agreed.
The codices in my eyes should be slightly biger and continue the streamlined pattern from before.
There really isn't a need to have all those Chapters possess their own codex. A few extra pages is more than enough.
It'll also ensure that all factions get updated more often.

Exactly which part do you agree with, the part where he say's that I think Space Marines should get more background simply because their Space Marines, the part where he shatters my universe by telling me that 40K isn't real or the part where he calls me a hypocrite?

Whatever it is I'd have to dissagree with you, in each of the Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Space Marines codices there are so many special characters, so much background and special rules that if they tried to fit all of that into one codex we wouldn't end up with a streamlined codex, we'd end up with a codex the size of the Yellow Pages, now for one moment I'm going to linger on the special characters, in the new SM codex there are eleven special characters, Space Wolves had three in the last codex, Blood Angels had five I think and so on so forth, too many for one codex.

When it all comes down to it the need for these codices is determined simply by demand, if people are buying them then it's obvious that they need to release them, all of these chapters have a large number of people that collect them and in my opinion deserve a codex for their favoured army as much you or I.

Slaaneshi Slave
16-09-2008, 21:23
The only difference between any of the books since 2nd ed is that 2nd ed had no special characters for anybody but Ultramarines, and 4th Ed had traits. There have always been more Ultramarine characters than any other chapter. The reason there are so many now is because there are so many more special characters in total. Everything in the book (special cahracters not counted) is useable by any loyalist chapter, not just Ultramarines. That's the whole point. I just don't see what the problem is.

Darthvegeta800
16-09-2008, 21:30
Exactly which part do you agree with, the part where he say's that I think Space Marines should get more background simply because their Space Marines, the part where he shatters my universe by telling me that 40K isn't real or the part where he calls me a hypocrite?

Whatever it is I'd have to dissagree with you, in each of the Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Space Marines codices there are so many special characters, so much background and special rules that if they tried to fit all of that into one codex we wouldn't end up with a streamlined codex, we'd end up with a codex the size of the Yellow Pages, now for one moment I'm going to linger on the special characters, in the new SM codex there are eleven special characters, Space Wolves had three in the last codex, Blood Angels had five I think and so on so forth, too many for one codex.

When it all comes down to it the need for these codices is determined simply by demand, if people are buying them then it's obvious that they need to release them, all of these chapters have a large number of people that collect them and in my opinion deserve a codex for their favoured army as much you or I.


Not persay i never said the full codex should be brought over to the SM. Only elements/rules to reflect the overall flair of them.
if not then GW can just as well publish codices for each Craftworld, Hiveworld, Legion, Orc warband etc. As fluffwise those have also huge differences in theory and their own history/background. I still think that by just giving your SM force certain doctrines/effects etc you can already do a lot. And a few extra pages depicting certain '(semi-)unique' units will do fine.

The only reason it seems that the SM's get so many codices is due to 'popularity'. Though that is relative since it's for a large part GW's doing that it's the SM's that are superpopular. Look at the Dark Eldar. Give them a codex and good support and i'm positively certain they'll be quite popular.

Granted SM's will always be nr1 popularity wise and I can understand GW doing something 'extra' for them. But so many codexes? It's over the top in my eyes. At least given the fact they can't manage to keep so many other factions up to date and well supported.

HsojVvad
16-09-2008, 22:21
Well I wouldn't like a bigger codex with them all. I am happy with the DA, yeah it could be better, but I am glad I have my own individual codex.

I don't want to buy a bigger codex and pay more, just to get the army I want. I wouldn't like that at all. If SM codex was bigger to encompass all armies, then it would be like a Forge world book witch I just can't dish out 100 or so bucks for. 35 bucks I can justify to the wife, 100 for a book, no she would kill me lol

HsojVvad
16-09-2008, 23:20
The reason there are so many now is because there are so many more special characters in total. Everything in the book (special cahracters not counted) is useable by any loyalist chapter, not just Ultramarines. That's the whole point. I just don't see what the problem is.

Well maybe it's just me then, but I thought this was a SM codex, not C:UM.

So any other army besides UltraMarines is a "counts as" army. You might not find anything wrong with it, but it really bothers me alot. And I collect DA lol, so why it bothers me, I have no idea but it does. Oh well once my DA are done, guess I will be doing a "counts as" army since I always wanted to do something of my own creation. But I never wanted it to be as a "counts as" so now when you buy all the minis, it even states in the codex that you have to say Malleus Calgar "counts as" to what ever.

As I said, I would't have been bothered if it was actually a SM codex not UM codex.

Kahadras
16-09-2008, 23:56
I really don't see much of a problem TBH. Ultramarines are the central 'codex' chapter that GW have put forward. It's only recently that GW have started tweaking them slightly to make them appear slightly more interesting than just plain vanilla (with stuff like Tyranic war veterans and the Honour guard).

IMHO Codex SM just uses the Ultramarines as an example. The studio has a large painted Ultramarine army so the fact that the chapter features heavily in the new codex isn't a suprise. Still there is plenty of room for other chapters to feature and although the Ultramarines dominate the special character section each other major chapter (Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Crimson fist, Salamander and White Scars) has it's own special character IIRC. My one complaint is that the Iron Hands seem to have been relegated to just a regular chapter in the codex as they had a lot of character IMO.

Kahadras

Staurikosaurus
17-09-2008, 03:17
@ HsojVvad

Did you actually bothered to READ the codex? Maybe you missed the part on page 127 I believe where is says: Ultramaines and other chapters "This army is Based First and Formost on the Ultramines but can be made using other armies" or something like that. Funny that is also in the DA codex as well and that is called Dark Angels Codex. That is why I say this is Ulramarines Codex. 6 out of 11 Special Characters are UM. That is more than 50%.
5/11 characters are not Ultramarines. How many characters in Codex DA aren't DA? As well, First and Foremost, not solely.

I managed to remake my Imperial Fists army with what you call Codex Ultramarines. Does that make them Ultramarines?


Same as in the DA codex again

If you had actually read what you'd quoted you'd see that I said EVERYONE else. DA codex is included in that, thus the word EVERYONE.

As well, the fluff deals primarily with the Ultramarines (as they stated in the codex, but there is fluff organized around successor and other chapters - I have read it. (the actual codex btw, not a pdf).

Successor chapters are not the parent chapter. They are their own chapters with their own heraldry, chapter master, history and place of operation. They share the same gene seed, that's it. Just because a chapter follows the codex astartes, does not make it Ultramarines. Case in point, take a look at the 3rd edition Blood Angels Codex.

Koryphaus
17-09-2008, 04:00
Holy mother of the Emperor.. This thread has become catfight central.

HsojVvad
17-09-2008, 21:03
@ HsojVvad


If you had actually read what you'd quoted you'd see that I said EVERYONE else. DA codex is included in that, thus the word EVERYONE.

guess I miss read your post. Sorry



As well, the fluff deals primarily with the Ultramarines (as they stated in the codex, but there is fluff organized around successor and other chapters - I have read it. (the actual codex btw, not a pdf).

Same as the DA codex again lol. You had your DA and then the Successor chapters, no difference I see. So it could just as well be C:UM


Successor chapters are not the parent chapter. They are their own chapters with their own heraldry, chapter master, history and place of operation. They share the same gene seed, that's it. Just because a chapter follows the codex astartes, does not make it Ultramarines. Case in point, take a look at the 3rd edition Blood Angels Codex.

I guess I was wrong, but I thought Successor Chapters were still part of the Original Chapter. Just like DA successor chapters are still DA at heart. So being an off shoot from UM, they still are UM at heart. I see it as you are still using UM gene seed to make a successor chapter so are still part UM. Am I mistaken then?

Slaaneshi Slave
17-09-2008, 21:23
Except you can make White Scars, Crimson Fists and others BY THE RULES IN THE BOOK. They include FOC altering units in the book for them. Jesus, get over it.