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Anton
14-09-2008, 01:18
I know it's a while until we will get a new Dwarfs army book, but I want to see peoples wishes for the army. I will start by posting my own thoughts and opinions.
Lords
Dwarf Lord - Some sort of generalship/inspiring/tactics rule to represent the Dwarfs ability to lead and inspire courage. What this would be, I have no idea.
Runelord - Good as is.
Daemon Slayer - Some sort of defense. Perhaps a Ward save. Maybe bought as a 'Slayer only' weapon rune.

Heroes
Thane - Perhaps the same as what I suggested for Dwarf Lords.
Runesmith - Good as is.
Master Engineer - Something akin to the experimental weapons of Empire Engineers. Such things are great fun. Gyrocopter would be fun too.
Dragon Slayer - Same as Daemon Slayer.

Core
Warriors -
Longbeards -
Quarrellers -
Thunderers -
Rangers - They should, in my opinion, have either the Skirmishers rule, or be able to move at normal speed through difficult terrain. Maybe move and fire?

Special
Hammerers - Some sort of boost to their combat abilities, to bring them to the same standard as other elite 7th edition armies. Something to make their survivability in close combat better. Perhaps Gromril Armour and +1A.
Cannon -
Miners - Ability to throw their Blasting Charges.
Ironbreakers - Some sort of boost to their combat abilities, to bring them to the same standard as other elite 7th edition armies. +1S and/or +1A maybe.
Grudge Thrower -
Slayers - Perhaps Frenzy. I'm torn on whether it fits the fluff of Slayers or not.

Rare
Organ Gun -
Flame Cannon -
Gyrocopter -

Dwarf Runes

Weapon Runes
...
Armour Runes
...
Runic Standards
...
Runic Talismans
...
Engineering Runes
...

Other
Let some unit champions take 25 pts of runes.

SuperArchMegalon
14-09-2008, 01:24
I'd like to see the Master Engineer completely revamped. It would be cool if you could stick him in a Gyrocopter.

Also, something similar to the Throne of Power for a Dwarf Lord - though I do like Shieldbearers a lot.

Maybe as a rule for the Lord to represent his leadership, everything within 12" of him is immune to being auto-broken from fear causers. Or at least just his unit, even if it's not Hammerers.

King Vyper
14-09-2008, 04:47
All Dwarves Should Have Stubborn. It would be on par with the other Blanket Army Rules (Ie HE-ASF, DE=Hatred, DoC-Ward Save)

Octavius_Maximus
14-09-2008, 05:53
Lord: Extra Magic weapon allowance (seriously, Vampires get 200 points!!)
Runelord: Give Magic resistance 2 to the unit they are with
Daemon slayer: gain a 4+ ward save due to his frenzied rage

Thane:
Runesmith: Give 1 use only magic Stones which include anvil abilities
Engineer: some wacky weapons would be cool
Dragon slayer: 5+ ward save due to rage

Warriors: Able to take a Runic standard for 25 points
Longbeards: nothing
Thunderers: +1 to hit at Short range only
Quarrellers: +1 to hit at Long range only
rangers: Ignore Woods

Ironbreakers: Allow them to have Runes of Stone
Hammerers: Give them Gromril armour without the option for a shield.
Slayers: 6+ ward save due to frenzied rage
Miners: nothing
Grudge Thrower: Nothing
Cannon: allow upgrade to Great Cannon
Bolt thrower: nothing

Flame Cannon: make it S6 and -2 to enemy Ld for panic checks
Gyrocopter: Nothing
Organ Gun: Keep as is

SuperArchMegalon
14-09-2008, 06:43
All Dwarves Should Have Stubborn. It would be on par with the other Blanket Army Rules (Ie HE-ASF, DE=Hatred, DoC-Ward Save)

The only problem with this is that Stubborn LD9 is too good. Maybe it would work Stubborn LD8, but then they'd be failing more fear tests - and fear is already the bane of stubborn units. Who wants to show up with an army of resolute grudge-bearing short men, just to see them cower in fear, because fear is their greatest weakness?

WLBjork
14-09-2008, 06:57
Lord: Extra Magic weapon allowance (seriously, Vampires get 200 points!!)

Wrong. Vampiric Powers are not Magic items, even if they do sometimes have similar effects.


Dwarfs need only a little tweaking.

I'd like to see the units I don't use being made more desirable - so that is Thunderers, Rangers and Slayers.

The easiest for Rangers would be to stop forcing them to take Great Weapons, efectively cutting the cost per model.

General Squeek Squeek
14-09-2008, 08:03
All Dwarves Should Have Stubborn. It would be on par with the other Blanket Army Rules (Ie HE-ASF, DE=Hatred, DoC-Ward Save)

This just would be a bad idea in general. With their already high leadership this does nothing more the force other armies to focus on heavy hitters and moving away from their core choices b/c the basic rnf will not have a chance of taking the dwarves out.

Leogun_91
14-09-2008, 09:41
Lord
Dwarf Lord-Make him stubborn and if he joins a unit of hammerers they become immune to pshycology.Option for additional handweapon
Runelord-Each runelord allows two unit champions to have 25pts of runes.
Deamonslayer-Frenzy and +1A and WS.

Heroes
Thane:Option for additional handweapon
Runesmith: Allows one unit champion to take 25pts of runes
Master Engineer: They are fine
Dragon Slayer:Give Frenzy
Great prospector: Miner hero

Core
Warriors: Great unit allready
Longbeards:Boost them to the level of other 7th edition elites
Thunderers:They are fine
Quarrelers:Allow to always stand and shoot (read description in armybook to see why)
Rangers: Allow them to move over rocky and foresty terrain whitout penalties.

Special
Add slayer pirates (maybe as rare instead but add them)
Hammerers: Must always use greatweapon in CC, gromril armour and shields. And boost to 7th edition elite level.
Ironbreakers: Boost to 7th edition elite level.
Slayers:Frenzy
Miners:They are good the way they are.
Grudge Thrower:Crew has hatred (they have written the grudges the enemy did on their stones)
Bolt thrower:They are good allready
Cannon:Makes D3+2 wounds (not the same destructive potential as an empire cannon but more reliable to cause some damage)

Rare
Flame cannon: Boost
Organ gun:Nerf
Gyrocopter:use the old crashing rules again

Weapon runes
Better system for rune inscribed great weapons (only having one masterrune sucks they could at least have made it a normal rune)

Armour Runes
No special wishes

Banner Runes
Strollaz costs 50pts rather than 55pts

Talisman Runes
A rune that removes the first spell cast at the unit

Engineering Runes
A master rune that allows a boltthrower to use stand and shoot
A one use only rune that allows a warmachine to move 8 instead of shooting
A one use only MasterRune that allows a cannon to shoot one extra shot one turn, this can be combined with the movement rune to move 8 and then shoot one shot.

Special characters
Josef: Good the way he is
Thorgrim:Also good
Thorek:NERF BIG TIME
Gromrindal:Add the white dwarf....he deserves it
Long Drong Silver: Add the famous slayer pirate as a hero
Burlock: Make him a proper engineer hero or maybe even an engineer lord
Gotrek and Felix: Lord and hero, Gotrek should be an extra though Deamonslayer and Felix should be a fighty human hero that is unbreakable as long as Gotrek is alive.
Alric Raunulfsson: He has a cool model so he might as well be used.

kramplarv
14-09-2008, 09:51
For dwarfs?

1: Get rid of the stupid +1 for Thunderers. They already have T4 etc, they do no neet to hit on3+ short/4+longrange. 4+/5+ would be fine.
2: Get rid of the stupid slayers. make them a unit of crazy things that wants do die, not packng up in large formations holding a flank. Make them skirmsiher unit with frenzy or something.
3: The organ cannon should not have the re-roll on its artillery dice. Or, it may keep it, but away with autohits.

otherwise i'm with octavius_maximus.

Ozorik
14-09-2008, 10:11
Slayers are perfect as they are. Frenzy just wouldnt suit them as they would spend their time chasing goblins or something equally pointless when they could be getting killed by something worthy. If they were made skirmishers (which isnt a bad idea) they would be even better than they are now so be careful what you wish for Kramplarv. I also dont like the ward save suggestion for slayer characters, it would make them extremely good tarpits (even more than they already are) able to hold up a ranked str 3 unit pretty much indefinately.

There isnt much that needs doing to the army as a whole. Some kind of movement boost to rangers is the only obvious thing that I can think of bar some minor tweeking.

More in the way of fear protection, maybe having to be outnumbered by a factor of 3 before they autobreak?

Ro stone to Ironbreakers? Do you really want ranked infantry to have a 1+ save?

Anton
14-09-2008, 11:02
I changed my mind, I will not update the original post other than to change my own list. Since people disagree so much, and have such varied thoughts, it's easiest if everyone just posts their own opinion.

Do keep posting, though. Keep it coming. :)

Leogun_91
14-09-2008, 11:27
Slayers are perfect as they are. Frenzy just wouldnt suit them as they would spend their time chasing goblins or something equally pointless when they could be getting killed by something worthy. Well that is what most dwarfs get to do anyway after a unit of cheap wolfriders charge them and flees, forcing the dwarfs to pursue. And slayers that cant stand still when the enemy comes seems fitting, frenzy would also raise their combat ability which is something all elite units seem to get these days so that would be good. And besides all dwarfs actually like to hunt goblins anyway.

Ozorik
14-09-2008, 11:37
That only works with goblins, substiture goblins for skinks/free company etc and you see what I mean. Slayers are simply not frenzied as they are perfectly lucid its just that all they want to do is die at the hands of something worthy.

They dont need their combat ability raised, they are pretty much spot on as they are.

Quetzl
14-09-2008, 12:39
I personally feel the list is quite balanced in itself. I know the newer uber armies outweight them a bit, but nothing a couple of pt cost reductions can't sort out :)

I'd be more interested in any new mini's :)

Ozorik
14-09-2008, 12:55
Plastic Hammerers and Ironbreakers is all thats needed really. Possibly slayers as well but their metals are really good as it is.

Oh and a gyrocopter that isnt an excersize in frustration to assemble and which stays in one piece post assembly would be nice.

kroq'gar
14-09-2008, 13:37
Its works very well at present.

Only few tweaks really needed-

Hammerers. No shield option, gromril armour.

Skirmishers, better at combat- need to have an unrully rule- eg roll a dice each turn, on 1 they must move towards the highest unit strength model they can see.

Organ gun- seriously needs a nerf. Perhaps st 4 -2 save, keeps its remaining rules.

Hellebore
14-09-2008, 13:41
Ro stone to Ironbreakers? Do you really want ranked infantry to have a 1+ save?

Why not? Why is it such a bad idea for an infantry unit with a M3 to have a 1+ armour save when you have units of knights with M7-8 out there with 1+ armour saves?

At the moment dwarfen armour is bested by other armies simply because they are riding horses.

Back in the mists of time iron breakers came with the rune of stone as standard (although they didn't wear gromril armour iirc).

I would give hammerers gromril armour as standard and have iron breakers in gromril+RoS. These are elite units, they should have elite armour. The empire can field entire armies of gromril wearing models, and they aren't even dwarfs (as all that 4+ plate is built by dwarfs).

Slayers should definitely be skirmishing.

I would perhaps give dwarfs a special rule that allows them to wield great weapons at Initiative, rather than last. If a pansy high elf can do it, then a strong and powerful dwarf should. Considering that they've got REALLY low initiative anyway, it wouldn't actually be much of a boost (striking with GTs at I2 won't have an affect on the majority of the armies out there).

Or maybe the ability to wield GTs one handed? Still striking last but counting as a single handed weapon (thus getting an extra attack).

The Throne of power should be counted as a target for attacks, and be immune to damage (isn't the cauldron of blood immune to damage now?). It has the rune of eternity on it and is completely indestructible.

Hellebore

Leogun_91
14-09-2008, 13:57
That only works with goblins, substiture goblins for skinks/free company etc and you see what I mean. Slayers are simply not frenzied as they are perfectly lucid its just that all they want to do is die at the hands of something worthy.The slayers are defenitively the kind of guys who would throw themselves at the closest target without hesitation, not the kind of guys that sit back and wait as the target isnt worthy, I mean they would charge them anyway be it skinks or free company or even a lone mage, the slayers would attack the enemy if given the chance.



They dont need their combat ability raised, they are pretty much spot on as they are. No but since everyone gets it maybe they could get some too, they are elite after all.

Ozorik
14-09-2008, 13:59
Iron breakers with the Ro stone will be about 14-15 points, much cheaper than a knight. A big block of them properly supported would be almost impossible to remove. Besides they already have a comparible AS to most knights and as they are an anvil unit speed isnt all that important.

While giving Hammerers gromril armour makes sense from a game perspective it removes the point in Ironbreakers. A 6+ ward save may be a better suggestion as well as removing the hammerer shield option.

The Empire doesnt use gromril armour (aside from 1 magic item) Full plate gets the 4+ save as it totally encloses the wearer but its still made out of steel.

Id like to see the bodyguard rule being army wide, with a suitible name change.

Just because "everyone else gets it" doesnt mean that they should. That sort of thinking is what created power creep in the first place. And Slayers dont need anything else, an 11 point T4 unbreakable model with one good and one ok special rule is enough for me.

snurl
16-09-2008, 04:35
It would be nice if :
Slayers could skirmish
Longbeards were stubborn again
Bring back Gyrocopter crash rules. Maybe a choice of armament for it.
Rangers could skirmish.
Thunderers could move and shoot.

WLBjork
16-09-2008, 06:12
Question for Snurl: When were Longbeards Stubborn?



This looks better than some wish lists :D


Lord
Dwarf Lord-Make him stubborn and if he joins a unit of hammerers they become immune to pshycology.Option for additional handweapon

Brace of Pistols would be more appropriate than a second HW IMO.

Stubborn & Immune to Psychology would effectively negate the Master Rune of Kingship though, so it's not going to happen.


Runelord-Each runelord allows two unit champions to have 25pts of runes.

Interesting idea on Champion weapons, any reasoning?


Deamonslayer-Frenzy and +1A and WS.

I think Hatred would be better than Frenzy - they're in a cold rage, not a hot rage.


Heroes

Thane:Option for additional handweapon

Again, I'd rather see the option for Brace of Pistols.


Runesmith: Allows one unit champion to take 25pts of runes

As with the Runelord, why?


Master Engineer: They are fine

Agreed


Dragon Slayer:Give Frenzy

Again, I think Hatred would fit better than Frenzy


Great prospector: Miner hero

Already exists - Thane with Rune of Brotherhood.


Core

Warriors: Great unit allready

Agreed


Longbeards:Boost them to the level of other 7th edition elites

How do you intend this to be done?


Thunderers:They are fine

Too expensive for what you get.


Quarrelers:Allow to always stand and shoot (read description in armybook to see why)

They are fine as it is.


Rangers: Allow them to move over rocky and foresty terrain whitout penalties.

Would make sense. And please stop forcing them to take Great Weapons...


Special

Add slayer pirates (maybe as rare instead but add them)

Slayer Pirates are available as DoW. Don't need to be in the Dwarf Army Book. Having said that, had GW applied the Ogre idea to all armies, they could have done.


Hammerers: Must always use greatweapon in CC, gromril armour and shields. And boost to 7th edition elite level.

They're fine as they are. With the Lord and the BSB they make a much better tarpit than slayers.


Ironbreakers: Boost to 7th edition elite level.

How? +1A would be nice, but not exactly appropriate.


Slayers:Frenzy

Hatred


Miners:They are good the way they are.

Agree



Grudge Thrower:Crew has hatred (they have written the grudges the enemy did on their stones)

Would need a points boost, would it carry over to Master Engineers?


Bolt thrower:They are good allready

I can't roll to hit for toffee with these...


Cannon:Makes D3+2 wounds (not the same destructive potential as an empire cannon but more reliable to cause some damage)

Be expensive though... how would it interact with the Master Engineer?


Rare

Flame cannon: Boost

Maybe very slightly, not too much.


Organ gun:Nerf

Why? It's more expensive than the HBVG, has a slightly higher average hit rate and is slightly less risky to fire.


Gyrocopter:use the old crashing rules again

They were fun, but I'm not comfortable with dead units killing things.


Weapon runes

Better system for rune inscribed great weapons (only having one masterrune sucks they could at least have made it a normal rune)

Would have been nice, but given the power of some of the other Master Runes, I can understand why they didn't.


Armour Runes

No special wishes

Banner Runes

Strollaz costs 50pts rather than 55pts

I think the intention of the Strollaz Rune is that it's BSB only, without being forced to sacrifice a Master Rune for it. Dropping it to 50 points would allow all units to take it, unless it was pushed up to Master Rune status.


Talisman Runes

A rune that removes the first spell cast at the unit

Sounds like the old Rune of Spell Eating to me.


Engineering Runes

A master rune that allows a boltthrower to use stand and shoot

A one use only rune that allows a warmachine to move 8 instead of shooting

A one use only MasterRune that allows a cannon to shoot one extra shot one turn, this can be combined with the movement rune to move 8 and then shoot one shot.

I only really like the first one. The second one isn't too bad, but the third one is a no-no as far as I'm concerned.


Special characters
Josef: Good the way he is
Thorgrim:Also good
Thorek:NERF BIG TIME
Gromrindal:Add the white dwarf....he deserves it
Long Drong Silver: Add the famous slayer pirate as a hero
Burlock: Make him a proper engineer hero or maybe even an engineer lord
Gotrek and Felix: Lord and hero, Gotrek should be an extra though Deamonslayer and Felix should be a fighty human hero that is unbreakable as long as Gotrek is alive.
Alric Raunulfsson: He has a cool model so he might as well be used.

No Special Characters! Well, no hope of that with GWs current attitude to including every Special Character ever into the current lists.

Mind you, Thorek is fine as he is. Most people seem to miss that he's a non-combatant with the only Master Rune of Gromril allowed in the flipping army! As a result, I never take Thorek.

snurl
16-09-2008, 08:55
Question for Snurl: When were Longbeards Stubborn?

Back in 5th edition. both books. (early-and later) And by Grungi's beard it made sense fluff-wise too.

Bran Dawri
16-09-2008, 21:41
Question for Snurl: When were Longbeards Stubborn?

Even though it's not my wishlist, I do have some thoughts on this.
Not in the 2nd 5th armybook, that's for sure.


Stubborn & Immune to Psychology would effectively negate the Master Rune of Kingship though, so it's not going to happen.

Not really, since with ItP, you're also immune to Stubborn, right?


Interesting idea on Champion weapons, any reasoning?

Personally, I think dwarf champions (definitely the elite champions) should be allowed runis weapons even without a runesmith/lord. Dwarfs are the masters of the forge, and have been making items and weapons for millennia. Since pointears of both high and dark variety have gained the option for magic items, dwarf should definitely have them.
There's dozens of examples sprinkled throughout GW fluff that even regular dwarf warriors have (minor) runes imprinted on their weapons.


I think Hatred would be better than Frenzy - they're in a cold rage, not a hot rage.

I think slayers of the troll, giant, and dragon variety are fine as they are. They're not meant for defensive work, so don't use them for it. They don't, IMO, need some kind of psychology rule to artifically boost them.
Daemonslayers, OTOH, need a boost. Fluffwise, and pointscost wise, those are right on cue. What kills daemonslayers is that they take up a lord slot. Maybe make them cost two hero slots instead?


Agreed

I don't. Master engineers should do something much more worthwhile than D6 wounds on a cannon, and should be allowed to join rare warmachines for some effect as well (after all, these are the guys that designed them).


Agreed

Warriors need more surviability. At least, where I play, they're rarely seen in 2000+ pt battles without character support - which they need or they won't hold the line. If there's one core unit in all of WFB that should be able to hold the line unbabysat, it's dwarf warriors, IMO.


Too expensive for what you get.

Thunderers are fine.


Would make sense. And please stop forcing them to take Great Weapons...

Me, I think they should disappear from the book entirely. The only dwarf rangers with a reason to exist, IMO, are Bugman's Rangers.


They're fine as they are. With the Lord and the BSB they make a much better tarpit than slayers.

These are the elite of the best warriors the dwarfs have to offer, so they're not fine as is, if as is means "excellent tarpit". These guys should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the very best of elite units in the entire warhammer world. Same goes for ironbreakers.


Agree

Blasting charges should not be stand and shoot only. for 30 points, I want to be able to throw 'em at something.


Would need a points boost, would it carry over to Master Engineers?

Wouldn't really - even though they're the sturdiest warmachine crews out there, they still die pretty easily. Then again, I don't really think they need a boost anyway.


I can't roll to hit for toffee with these...

Me neither, but then I've always preferred cannons.


Be expensive though... how would it interact with the Master Engineer?

d3+2 wounds would actually make it cause more wounds on average than an empire greatcannon, and more reliably, too. (Not that I'm entirely opposed to the idea, d3+1 should be fine and not require a price hike, even.)


Maybe very slightly, not too much.

Mostly just needs a points drop down to OG level. Currently, that's a better *and* cheaper machine.


Why? It's more expensive than the HBVG, has a slightly higher average hit rate and is slightly less risky to fire.

I think OG is fine as is. OTOH, if my dwarf (elite) infantry can for once actually stand up to a cavalry charge, I'd happily remove this from the list entirely (ain't gonna happen, but hey - I'm just trying to show I'm willing to compromise)


They were fun, but I'm not comfortable with dead units killing things.

Plus, for friendly games, you can always try to get your opponent to agree to the old crashing rules (if killed while in the air, sctters 4d6" before crashing. Centre large template there. S4 armourpiercing).


Would have been nice, but given the power of some of the other Master Runes, I can understand why they didn't.

Could've made it a MR like the RO stone - you can take several in an army, but since it's still a MR, can't be combined with another MR on the same weapon.


I think the intention of the Strollaz Rune is that it's BSB only, without being forced to sacrifice a Master Rune for it. Dropping it to 50 points would allow all units to take it, unless it was pushed up to Master Rune status.

Strollaz's Rune is fine as is. I rarely leave the Hold without it anyways.


Sounds like the old Rune of Spell Eating to me.

Somewhat. That worked more like a dispel scroll though, didn't it?


I only really like the first one. The second one isn't too bad, but the third one is a no-no as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't really like any of them, though the first doesn't sound overpowered or anything. Prolly just my general dislike of BTs coming through.


Mind you, Thorek is fine as he is. Most people seem to miss that he's a non-combatant with the only Master Rune of Gromril allowed in the flipping army! As a result, I never take Thorek.

Pah! Thorek! Upstart youngling smith. Barely a runesmith, and already arrogant enough to call himself one of the greatest runelords ever. Why, Kragg the Grimm beats him on all levels. His personal master rune (not the one he's offhandedly throwing about these days) beats the living snot out of any magic or runic weapon in existence save perhaps those of the Ancestor Gods.

grumbaki
16-09-2008, 22:32
Well, I can wholeheartedly get into this topic. My ideas!

Slayers
* Skirmish
* Death Seekers: If there is a monstrous target in the enemy army, then at the start of the turn roll a d6. On the roll of a 1 the slayers move d6+6'' towards the model. This replaces their normal move.

Daemon Slayers
Nobody ever takes them. Ever. So, what is the solution?
* Because DS have survived for so long fighting the worst that the old world, and beyond can throw at them, they get a general 5+ ward save.
* And because they represent the epitome of the slayer hierarchy, their slayer skills should match it. Their strength will always be high enough to wound an opponent on a 3+! Together, with a raise in points, I could see them being a very popular choice.

Ironbreakers
* New equipment type
- Gromril Weapons (-1 AS. With their Str of 4, this gives them -2 AS modifier to their attacks). I'd also want to see this as an upgrade for dwarf heroes, but of course runes would negate the benefits.
* New Skill
- Tunnel Fighters (Ironbreakers do not lose their rank bonus when an enemy fights them in the flank or the rear. However, the usual +1 flanking or +2 rear bonus applies to the attacker. They also do not take panic checks for being charged in the flank/rear while in combat.

Hammerers
* Drop the shields, give them gromril armor (even though I just recently added shields to all my hammerers...)
* Give Hammerers +1 attacks. With 2 attacks, they might actually be the mirror to the high elf swordmasters. Sure, the swordmasters always strike first and hit hard, but the hammerers always strike last and are tough enough that enough might survive to really hurt you. This makes them more than a tarpit.
* Raise the points cost of hammerers and make them 0-1.

Rangers
* Give them the forestor rule back

Artillery
* Dwarf artillery should be the finest in the old-world. So, dwarf stone throwers, bolt throwers and cannons do d3+1 wound. With a master engineer, the cannon will do d6+1 wound. Nasty? Yes, but that is how dwarven artillery should be.

Miners
* Blasting charges. Let us throw them!

All-around army specific rule
* As this is all the rage these days, and everyone seems to get it, here is what I'd want...
- Immune to Fear! Yes, you heard me right. If high elves get ASF, dark elves get hatred (and the +1 attack on the charge), daemons get their ward save, etc etc, then dwarfs deserve something new too. And what is more dwarvish than gritting your teeth in the face of certain death and holding on? This of course would mean that terror would then cause fear for the dwarves too, which again is fitting. Yes, VC/TK players will whine about it, but they've still got enough hard units to smack us around.

In general
While we are at it, I'd like to see this change for everyone.
* Hatred- When you defeat a unit you hate or if you are in charge range, you only need to pursue/charge if you fail a LD test. Or roll a 1 on a d6. I really don't understand why intelligent races *need* to act so dumb.

Overall

The dwarf list still would not be as scary as...say, daemons. But these changes would really put the dwarfs up there in terms of being competitive. The Ironbreakers become excellent flank holders, and with a 1+ armor save and -2 AS modifiers, they can survive and pack a punch. Hammerers become a very nasty hammer unit that can stand toe-to-toe with other elite units (and with the rumors of the new chaos warriors, we might need that!). Slayers become very useful as our only skirmishing unit, but are not always reliable. They might also be able to actually get in combat with an enemy monster! The immune to fear would save the army from autobreaking, which really isn't very dwarvish. And finally, as for our core...it is solid enough as it is.

GodlessM
16-09-2008, 22:40
I know it's a while until we will get a new Dwarfs army book

This is officially the understatement of the year.

Ozorik
16-09-2008, 22:46
Not bad suggestions there Grumbaki but beware of fueling the power creep bonfire.

Deathseekers is a nice and fluffy rule as is skirmish.

Tunnel fighters is nice and fluffy but, again, this will make them an even better anvil than they are already(and probably more expensive as well).

If Dwarves are immune to fear how will a VC player beat dwarves? Aside from bloodknights they dont really have any units that has much of a chance of breaking through dwarf blocks. Id like to see the outnumber autobreak threshold significantly increased but not removed entirely.

WLBjork
17-09-2008, 06:06
Not really, since with ItP, you're also immune to Stubborn, right?

Not any more.You'll gain immunity to Panic over what the MRoK gives, but as I say, what then happens to that Master Rune?



Warriors need more surviability. At least, where I play, they're rarely seen in 2000+ pt battles without character support - which they need or they won't hold the line. If there's one core unit in all of WFB that should be able to hold the line unbabysat, it's dwarf warriors, IMO.

Interestingly, that's almost the opposite of how I play. Big block of 24 Warriors, no characters. I may have my Longbeards nearby, but that's it. A 3+/4+ save is easy to come by, they tend to struggle to deal damage. I can live with that - they aren't supposed to be uber-dwarf killing machines.




Thunderers are fine.

Since the new book came out, I've rarely used them. +3 points for armour piercing, +1 to hit and -6" range is too expensive IMO.



Me, I think they should disappear from the book entirely. The only dwarf rangers with a reason to exist, IMO, are Bugman's Rangers.

With overland communities, and the loss of the Ungdrin, Rangers do have a place.




These are the elite of the best warriors the dwarfs have to offer, so they're not fine as is, if as is means "excellent tarpit". These guys should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the very best of elite units in the entire warhammer world. Same goes for ironbreakers.

Bad example really on my part. There aren't that many units that can gain 8 static combat resolution, Stubborn and Immune to Fear and Terror though (without spending a lot of points).




Blasting charges should not be stand and shoot only. for 30 points, I want to be able to throw 'em at something.

Priced per model in the unit, and damage depends on the number of models in the unit sound better?




Wouldn't really - even though they're the sturdiest warmachine crews out there, they still die pretty easily. Then again, I don't really think they need a boost anyway.

The unit potentially has 8 rerolled attacks - I don't expect that for free.



Mostly just needs a points drop down to OG level. Currently, that's a better *and* cheaper machine.

Depends on the target. I can see where you're coming from though, it lacks flexibility for it's cost.




I think OG is fine as is. OTOH, if my dwarf (elite) infantry can for once actually stand up to a cavalry charge, I'd happily remove this from the list entirely (ain't gonna happen, but hey - I'm just trying to show I'm willing to compromise)

I'd still keep it for turning flocks of Warhawks into Pate.



Somewhat. That worked more like a dispel scroll though, didn't it?

Pass, I've slept since then...

Bran Dawri
17-09-2008, 10:42
Not any more.You'll gain immunity to Panic over what the MRoK gives, but as I say, what then happens to that Master Rune?

pretty much useless as is, anyway. Immune to panic (for hammerers) isn't worth 100 pts, especially if you can put a unit longbeards nearby and be virtually immune to it anyway.



Interestingly, that's almost the opposite of how I play. Big block of 24 Warriors, no characters. I may have my Longbeards nearby, but that's it. A 3+/4+ save is easy to come by, they tend to struggle to deal damage. I can live with that - they aren't supposed to be uber-dwarf killing machines.

I don't want warriors to be uber-dwarf killing machines (that's a role I want for ironbreakers & hammerrers :p). I just want them to be able to hold the line. Over here, my opponents tend to just waltz over them with a cavalry charge. (My gaming club is pretty cutthroat...)


Since the new book came out, I've rarely used them. +3 points for armour piercing, +1 to hit and -6" range is too expensive IMO.

I use them nearly all the time in 2K+ battles. Always S&S on short range (thanks to Bob, my thunderer champion with BoP) makes up for a lot of things. Also, the extra -1 AS comes quite in handy vs all the cavalry I tend to face.


With overland communities, and the loss of the Ungdrin, Rangers do have a place.

Call me a grumbly old dwarfs who remembers the old days of yore when the situation was the same and we did perfectly well without them.


Bad example really on my part. There aren't that many units that can gain 8 static combat resolution, Stubborn and Immune to Fear and Terror though (without spending a lot of points).

That 8 static CR doesn't really come cheap now, does it? It requires a sizeable unit hammerers ~300+ pts), a dwarf lord (150-300), a BSB (90+), and at least 175 pts worth of runic standard.
That's 715 points with a bare-bones lord. A unit blood dragon knights or a charge by 2 bret lances will eat this unit alive despite being cheaper.


Priced per model in the unit, and damage depends on the number of models in the unit sound better?

D6 S6 AP is good enough for me - I just want to be able to use the damn things, because so far, I've always either been charged from within half charge distance (thanks to coming in real close to the enemy), or done the charging myself.


The unit potentially has 8 rerolled attacks - I don't expect that for free.

Fair enough, but I don't *want* 8 rerolled attacks (plus, I wouldn't think a ME would be affected by this, so a max of 5 S3 attacks), and a warmachine with both an engineer and a master engineer doesn't need the boost.


Depends on the target. I can see where you're coming from though, it lacks flexibility for it's cost.

Exactly.


I'd still keep it for turning flocks of Warhawks into Pate.

I'd like to, as well, but if reclaiming our title as finest infantry in the world means losing that, I'd go for it. Personally, I think the thing is fine as is.


Pass, I've slept since then...\

:D

FatCat
17-09-2008, 12:40
Old Grumblers type army wide rule. Re-roll panic for everyone

Longbeards- 0-1 core with immune to fear

Rangers- Bring back Forrester and only give them the option of coming fully equipped for not too many points.

Slayer characters- Allow you to bring 1-3 DoomSeekers or make them character slot free like DE assassins.

Master Engineer- Let them pilot a gyrocopter

Iron Breakers- Don't loose hand weapon&shield bonus when flanked. Let them buy blasting charges like miners.

Hammerers- Gromril armor and no shield option. I'd like to see them gain frenzy or eternal hatred if the character they're guarding is killed.

FatCat
17-09-2008, 12:47
They also do not take panic checks for being charged in the flank/rear while in combat.
Consider it done:D

Ozorik
17-09-2008, 16:31
Hatred against Chaos Dwarves (assuming they dont become the squats of fantasy).

Leogun_91
17-09-2008, 17:50
That 8 static CR doesn't really come cheap now, does it? It requires a sizeable unit hammerers ~300+ pts), a dwarf lord (150-300), a BSB (90+), and at least 175 pts worth of runic standard.
That's 715 points with a bare-bones lord. A unit blood dragon knights or a charge by 2 bret lances will eat this unit alive despite being cheaper.But than the next turn the hammerers strike back with full force and the enemy breaks and flees (or crumbles to dust in the case of those Bloodknights)

Quetzl
17-09-2008, 18:03
This is officially the understatement of the year.

Well we'll probably be seeing a Dwarf armybook sooner than a Chaos Dwarf armybook lolz :)

grumbaki
17-09-2008, 18:14
Hatred against Chaos Dwarves (assuming they dont become the squats of fantasy).

And Skaven. They've done at least as much to mess up the dwarves as the greenskins have done.

So, to reivse my last post:

Army Wide Rules
* No immune to fear (drop that part out)
* Hatred v. Greenskins, Skaven and Chaos Dwarves
* Keep the current movement rules

theunwantedbeing
17-09-2008, 18:31
If you want dwarf artillery to be the finest in the world.
Make them only explode on a misfire result of a 6.
On a 1-3 they can fire normally the next turn.
On a 4-5 they cannot fire the next turt.
On a 6 they explode.

Much better than empire cannons. Represnets their superiority more.
In any case, A dwarf cannon doing D3+1 wounds is less damaging than an empire cannon doing D6 wounds, so much for dwarf superiorty if the empire have better cannons.

lcfr
18-09-2008, 00:15
The Dwarf list is a pretty well balanced one, and I think it shows in that GW made only one major change to the 6th ed. army book in the form of the AoD. 8th ed. Dwarfs will probably require only some tweaks here and there too, unless armies continue to get more absurd. One thing I think we can count on though (unfortunately, in my mind) is more SCs.

The only changes I'd like to see currently are:

1. Give Rangers their "Foresters" rule
2. Allow Thunderers to move-and-shoot
3. AoD specific runes

ChaosCajun
18-09-2008, 02:29
Dwarf Lord-give option for handweapon, brace of pistols, and any other mundane weapon allowed dwarfdom; immune to pshychology
Runelord-MR2 to unit he joins
Deamonslayer-give him Doomseeker rules from SoC. Allow slayer only ward save runes for weapons (4+, 5+, and 6+).

Heroes
Thane:same as for Lord; immune to psychology
Runesmith: MR1 to unit he joins
Master Engineer: Allow them to crew a gyrocopter
Dragon Slayer:Give Doomseeker rules from SoC and option for runic ward save

Core
Warriors: hmmm........no change
Longbeards: hmmmm....no change
Thunderers: allow them to move and fire if in 2 ranks (front rank fire only)
Quarrelers:allow them to move and fire if in 2 ranks (front rank fire only)
Rangers: Allow them to move over rocky and foresty terrain whitout penalties. Make great weapon an option not required.

Special
Hammerers: Immune to psychology
Ironbreakers: Immune to psychology
Slayers: give them a runic standard option that gives them ward saves vs shooting as they think it's unsporting; hatred of missile armed enemy
Miners: Allow them to come on like gutter runners
Grudge Thrower:hmmm, fine
Bolt thrower:hmmm, cheaper?
Cannon: hmmm, perhaps cheaper?

Rare
Flame cannon: cheaper?
Organ gun:fine as is
Gyrocopter:use the old crashing rules again; use the old steam damage rules (no armor save)

Bran Dawri
18-09-2008, 07:20
But than the next turn the hammerers strike back with full force and the enemy breaks and flees (or crumbles to dust in the case of those Bloodknights)

There'won't be enough (if any!) of them left alive to break/crumble the enemy unit. I've seen it happen too many times.

At best, if you're really lucky, there will be one or two left standing (assuming the BK don't kill your lord and autobreak them) and you'll be able to flank the enemy. Then again, it'll be the opposing player's own fault for charging your hammerers and not the support unit...

Leogun_91
18-09-2008, 08:10
There'won't be enough (if any!) of them left alive to break/crumble the enemy unit. I've seen it happen too many times.

At best, if you're really lucky, there will be one or two left standing (assuming the BK don't kill your lord and autobreak them) and you'll be able to flank the enemy. Then again, it'll be the opposing player's own fault for charging your hammerers and not the support unit... Not if you pay 300pts for only hammerers(which your calculation said) that unit wont be wiped and your lord will ofcourse issue a challenge and stand with his gret armour save. The unit you described is rock hard and its only problem is that it is extremely easy to avoid.

Chiron
18-09-2008, 08:25
Bring back move and fire for Thunderers, dwarves are static enough without encouraging them to hang back

Units of elite ranked troops steadily moving forward while Thunderers offer moving fire support on the flanks appeals to me

Bran Dawri
18-09-2008, 11:09
Not if you pay 300pts for only hammerers(which your calculation said) that unit wont be wiped and your lord will ofcourse issue a challenge and stand with his gret armour save. The unit you described is rock hard and its only problem is that it is extremely easy to avoid.

I've seen it happen. Multiple times.
18 hammerers with shields, FC, and a runic banner (314 pts), kitted-out lord (so ~300 pts, not 150 which I used in my calculation) get charged by 1 unit blood dragons + vampire. Dwarf lord challenges (you're better off challenging w/ your unit champ, but it doesn't make a difference), and kills a blood knight. Combined attacks of the blood knights and vampire wipe out or nearly wipe out the unit.
Even if the hammerers live, the blood knights and vampire still pump out way too many S5 attacks for there to be any hammerers able to strike back in subsequent rounds.
Situation's slightly more favourable for Bret knights, but even there the dwarfs' much-lauded static CR is nearly wiped out after round one, at which point they just don't have enough return attacks to turn the tide in their favour.

Plus, the points wasn't even that this point-sink of a unit was easy to break (it does take the scariest units currently available in WFB), but that, contrary to the argument, it's not cheap to get this unit - it tops 600 pts easily without BSB (and then only has +6 CR without previous casualties).

bork da basher
18-09-2008, 11:20
I've seen it happen. Multiple times.
18 hammerers with shields, FC, and a runic banner (314 pts), kitted-out lord (so ~300 pts, not 150 which I used in my calculation) get charged by 1 unit blood dragons + vampire. Dwarf lord challenges (you're better off challenging w/ your unit champ, but it doesn't make a difference), and kills a blood knight. Combined attacks of the blood knights and vampire wipe out or nearly wipe out the unit.
Even if the hammerers live, the blood knights and vampire still pump out way too many S5 attacks for there to be any hammerers able to strike back in subsequent rounds.

what dwarf player worth his salt would allow this to happen? unless you have no shooting at all surely this unit would be THE target because of its speed and combat prowess. i play a mixed army that has 3 big combat elite units (including said lord + hammerers) 4 artillery pieces and 2 units of shooters, xbows/thunderers. i also have a gyro whose sole duty will be to stop the blighters marching whilst my guns pound the unit of 5 or 6 (you wont find more than this) into the dust. if by some fluke they still exist after turn one then the gyro will bait them into the open and i'll crush them in combat.

if you allow yourself to be charged then yes they will flatten you but chances are they wont kill the entire unit and beat them bloody and hammerers still only run on a 10+, next turn switch to hand weapon n shield for power armour and beat them with static CR (assuming you have ranks left) or if you feel confident crush some skulls with the GW's

ChaosCajun
18-09-2008, 11:43
Shieldwall: I would also like to see a shieldwall ability for warriors, longbeards, and ironbreakers. Due to their small stature, large shields, and great discipline, warriors, longbeards, and ironbreakers using handweapon and shield form a shieldwall when stationary. As long as the unit is stationary and has not lost a round of combat, enemies in contact with them suffer a -1 to hit. Thus, if they charge or lose a round of combat, but don't break, the shieldwall is nullified.

This ability alone would offset much of the impact of charges on dwarven infantry. The rule has precedence in the GW arena as it is used some by WAB troops.

bork da basher
18-09-2008, 12:03
arnt dwarf units tough enough as it is and nigh unbreakable. they really dont need anything else. yes the rule sounds great and its fluffy but the average dwarf warrior is WS4, T4, LD9 with a 3+ save in combat if he has a shield and all for a poxy 9pts. if a unit breaks a fully ranked unit of dwarfs then it proberly deserved it because lets face it its no easy task.

i like the idea i just dont think its required.

Bran Dawri
18-09-2008, 12:57
what dwarf player worth his salt would allow this to happen? unless you have no shooting at all surely this unit would be THE target because of its speed and combat prowess. i play a mixed army that has 3 big combat elite units (including said lord + hammerers) 4 artillery pieces and 2 units of shooters, xbows/thunderers. i also have a gyro whose sole duty will be to stop the blighters marching whilst my guns pound the unit of 5 or 6 (you wont find more than this) into the dust. if by some fluke they still exist after turn one then the gyro will bait them into the open and i'll crush them in combat.

if you allow yourself to be charged then yes they will flatten you but chances are they wont kill the entire unit and beat them bloody and hammerers still only run on a 10+, next turn switch to hand weapon n shield for power armour and beat them with static CR (assuming you have ranks left) or if you feel confident crush some skulls with the GW's

It's not as easy as that. Vampires have great screen units (dire wolves/ethereals) for these guys, and you don't always have a hill handy to shoot over them - not to mention the ridiculous 4+ regen vs shooting banner). Marchblocking vs VC also isn't that reliable due to Vanhel's Dance.
Plus, raise spells mean that any casualties you do inflict will usually be right back up come next magic phase (and no, even the legendary dwarf magic resistance can't stop all that power).

In case you failed to notice, my gaming roup is pretty cuttthroat, and weaknesses like the ones you listed tend to be shored up before the battle even begins.

@ChaosCajun: Awesome idea. I like it. I like it a lot.

What I'd also like to see, but is unlikely to ever happen, is some kind of dwarf monster/or dreadnought. The dreadnought to represent their superior tech (I know a lot of people won't like this as it's not High Fantasy), or the monster (some kind of elemental - fire or earth) to represent the dwarfs more as "masters of stone and steel" who can call up the very rock itself to fight for them.

Anton
18-09-2008, 19:56
if you allow yourself to be charged then yes they will flatten you but chances are they wont kill the entire unit and beat them bloody and hammerers still only run on a 10+, next turn switch to hand weapon n shield for power armour and beat them with static CR (assuming you have ranks left) or if you feel confident crush some skulls with the GW'sYou are not allowed to switch like that. Once you've chosen, you have to stick with the same equipment until that combat is over.

ChaosCajun
18-09-2008, 22:29
@Bork: I agree that dwarven infantry is tough, but they aren't nigh unbreakable. This is a wishlist afterall. The lack of large monsters and general mobility means dwarven infantry needs to be tough to hold up to being charged. The shield wall will only be effective the first round, as the dwarves should still lose combat if charged by any enemy of significant strength. This just helps them hold better. It also limits them to HW/Sh for the entire combat, which forces them to forgo the greater casualty causing great weapons.

Personally, I think all infantry armed with HW/SH (but not having a ranged missile weapon with the exception of javelin or throwing axe) should have Shieldwall ability and that it should extend to enemy shooting at them even while moving. This would increase the desirability of infantry in WFB, which currently suffers greatly to gunlines and knights. Shieldwall benefits should only apply to the frontal zone though. If all infantry had it, then it wouldn't be a huge advantage and would actually help horde armies like O&G and skaven. However, the shieldwall is most appropriate to dwarves IMO.

Finally, Anton is right, you choose your weapon at the beginning of the close combat, not the close combat round. Therefore you must use the same weapon for the whole combat.

larabic
19-09-2008, 03:18
Alright a subject i can sink my teeth into! I have been waiting a while for this one....

My thoughts:

Warriors: None - maybe spears back but i am pushing it i think.

Crossbows: None

Gunners: None

Longbeards: None

Rangers: Move thru woods

Miners: Move back to core - make them an upgrade like rangers

Slayers: Skirmish maybe?

Hammerers: Weapon master reroll missed to hits - treat great hammers as normal weapons.. ie don't strike last. Inspiration: Anytime hammerers win combat all friendly dwarf units with in 6" recieve +1 to the combat resolution. (pretty much a direct quote from the fluff... gaining inspiration from seeing the hammers rise and fall)

Ironbreakers:something like Shieldwall: Charging this unit from the front grants the charge no bonus, resolve combat in intiative order, lances, spears recieve no bonus to str. Or maybe Iron breakers can never be hit on anything better then a 4+.
or
Tortise Shell: Any turn which the ironbreakers do not move they recieve a 5+ ward save vs shooting.

Cannons: Make them better then Empire they are a joke right now IMO.

Bolt throwers: Fine

Stone Thrower: Fine

Flame cannon: Love it as is.

Organ gun: Fine as is, commands respectr and fear but not broken.

Gyrocopter: Scout rule would make it useful.

Give us a rare unit!

Lord: minor tweaks... make handgun same price as a Thane since no difference in BS. Non character throne maybe?

Runelord: Make the anvil like casket or cauldron. Don't make it have a chance to blow up with to character choices invested in it!

Runesmith: Fine

Dragon / Demon Slayers: 5+ luck ward save... or to tough to die. Make it worth a lord choice!

Thane: Be able to buy royal blood rule, is all royalty that goes to war kings?!

Master Engineer: Buff some how not really useful imo except for BT

Now the waaay out there ideas that i would like to kind of see:

Non Cavalry - Cavalry: Ram riders the move 5" or 6" that would just persue 2d6"

Some kind of moster or monsterous thing mechanical in nature. Steam tank or unridden monster equivalent.

Golems or constructs that would fill the role of ogres or trolls, give them stupidity and ther construct rule from TK's.

That is all i got for now....

silashand
20-09-2008, 07:51
Personally, I think dwarf champions (definitely the elite champions) should be allowed runic weapons even without a runesmith/lord.

Agreed.


Daemonslayers, OTOH, need a boost. Fluffwise, and pointscost wise, those are right on cue. What kills daemonslayers is that they take up a lord slot. Maybe make them cost two hero slots instead?

Personally, I think both Slayer characters need something. My vote is for the Slayer Doom save I suggested a long time ago, i.e. it's a gradiated ward save based on the Dwarf Ancestors' plans for a given slayer's doom. In essense it's a ward save where a trollslayer has none, giant slayers have a 6+, dragon slayers have a 5+ and daemon slayers have a 4+. IMO this alone would make them worth taking. As it stands they just aren't worth their points since you can't guarantee they will make it to combat. Leave all other rules the same and this fixes them IMO.



Master engineers should do something much more worthwhile than D6 wounds on a cannon, and should be allowed to join rare warmachines for some effect as well (after all, these are the guys that designed them).

Agreed. IMO they need a few wacky weapons (after all, the models have them) and let them ride in a gyro.


Warriors need more surviability. At least, where I play, they're rarely seen in 2000+ pt battles without character support - which they need or they won't hold the line. If there's one core unit in all of WFB that should be able to hold the line unbabysat, it's dwarf warriors, IMO.

Actually, I have no problems at all with Dwarf warriors and always include at least two fully ranked units of them. With judicious placement of Longbeards to re-roll panic checks they almost never go anywhere.


Me, I think they should disappear from the book entirely. The only dwarf rangers with a reason to exist, IMO, are Bugman's Rangers.

I disagree. There are rangers in at least one of the novels and I think the idea is a necessary one. They just need to ignore difficult terrain and they're fine. Bugman's Rangers need to be able to carry crossbows though. I do think they are also probably a bit overcosted for what you get.


These are the elite of the best warriors the dwarfs have to offer, so they're not fine as is, if as is means "excellent tarpit". These guys should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the very best of elite units in the entire warhammer world. Same goes for ironbreakers.

IBs should get the Rune of Stone back to make them more of a choice over Hammerers. As it is now you trade +1 AS for Stubborn, Great Weapons and Immune to Fear/Terror when joined by a Dwarf lord for exactly the same cost. Sorry, even though I like the models, the IBs lose out on that deal every time.


Blasting charges should not be stand and shoot only. for 30 points, I want to be able to throw 'em at something.

Agreed. I think 8" range, D3" scatter, small template would be fine. Kinda like satchel charges in the 40K IG rules.


I think OG is fine as is. OTOH, if my dwarf (elite) infantry can for once actually stand up to a cavalry charge, I'd happily remove this from the list entirely (ain't gonna happen, but hey - I'm just trying to show I'm willing to compromise)

The real problem is that the auto-hit is almost definitely going to disappear when the new book comes out since the DT has decided such things were wrong all around. If that's the case then it will need to be either seriously reduced in price, it's stats improved, give it some special ability, or allow runes back on Rare war machines. Don't do any of the above and it's just no longer worth it. Personally, I think Runes should be allowed back on the Rares anyway as it was always fluffy. Just make caveats for the ones that can't be used on a gyro/flame cannon (the two that were problematic anyway).

Also, I want the bombing run rules and crashes for gyros back!

Dwarf Lords should all have the option for a Throne. They can't all be lost. Obviously Thorgrim's would be the most powerful, but there should still be others.

Dwarf steam Golems / Dreadnoughts would be awesome. There was a very cool set of conversions on the web a long time ago, but I doubt GW would ever do anything like that.

As for Runes:

I want the return of Groth One-Eye. The Ancestor Rune is a poor substitute IMO.

Also want the return of the Master Rune of Death (in today's WFB it would simply grant killing blow vs everything). Also consider the MRs of Daemon/Dragonslaying as well as Banishment.

The return of the Master Rune of Spellhating (dispel any one spell, even one cast on IF). Expensive, only works once, but with the prevalence of ways to gain IF now, this is necessary.

Return of the Rune of Passage (talismanic: ignore difficult/very difficult terrain). If there were one single thing I think should happen this is it. It would allow Dwarfs to actually deal with terrain rather than always be stuck in it which makes no sense. If Dwarfs are really that slow then they certainly would have found ways to deal with things that hinder their ability to move about the battlefield.


Pah! Thorek! Upstart youngling smith. Barely a runesmith, and already arrogant enough to call himself one of the greatest runelords ever. Why, Kragg the Grimm beats him on all levels. His personal master rune (not the one he's offhandedly throwing about these days) beats the living snot out of any magic or runic weapon in existence save perhaps those of the Ancestor Gods.

Actually, *ALL* of the good old historical Dwarf characters need to make a return. Kragg the Grim, Burlock Damminson, etc. all would make characterful additions to the Dwarf army and might even make me forget my distaste of special characters ;).

Anyway, just some of my ideas...

Cheers, Gary

Ozorik
20-09-2008, 12:44
Hammerers Vs Ironbreakers isnt quite so clear cut as you suggest. Its a 2+ AS and handweapon Vs 5+ AS with greatweapon and some good pyschology rules. There is still a place for Iron breakers.

Dragon slayers are fantastic value for what you get, I just hope any preposed wardsave doesnt increase their points cost significantly.

The old spcial characters do exist after a fashion, they are on the GW website although the only ones to recive proper special character treatment is Gotrek and Felix.

hippo2112
20-09-2008, 13:27
Slayers - Perhaps Frenzy. I'm torn on whether it fits the fluff of Slayers or not.


I've never understood the fluff for slayers anyway. "I'm ashamed and don't think I'm good enough to live with the rest of the dwarves. Oh, you too! Let's get together and go fight for them anyway..."

I think that Dwarves could use a couple of things, the main being some sort of cavalry style unit. I don't know if it would be a boar, or even some sort of mechanical contraption a la the gyrocopter.

I also think it would be cool if dwarves became more 'techy'. I understand that they have better guns and the gyrocopter already. I think I would like to see the theme of the army become the sci-fi arm of fantasy.

silashand
20-09-2008, 19:11
Hammerers Vs Ironbreakers isnt quite so clear cut as you suggest. Its a 2+ AS and handweapon Vs 5+ AS with greatweapon and some good pyschology rules. There is still a place for Iron breakers.

There is only a +1 AS difference when both have shields which makes them cost the same (why you wouldn't is a mystery given the additional options it gives you as well as the improved save vs missile weapons. Bit of a no-brainer now really). As I said, at the same cost you get exactly the same stats and you trade the +1AS of gromril armour for all the other advantages. I've been playing Dwarfs for going on 2 decades now and in this edition the advantage clearly goes to the Hammerers every day of the week.


Dragon slayers are fantastic value for what you get, I just hope any preposed wardsave doesnt increase their points cost significantly.

I have never seen them used effectively in the current or last edition. They can't join non-unbreakable units and thus are either in with a unit of slayers that can be avoided or tied up by something useless for the entire game or targeted by all the missile weaponry and ranged magic in your opponent's list. Sorry, they along with their daemon slayer brethren are useless vs an opponent who knows what he's doing.

Cheers, Gary

SuperArchMegalon
20-09-2008, 19:30
Dwarfs need something that can stand up to a charge from some of the new Uber units that are being released. As an above poster pointed out things like Blood Knights cannot be taken in combat by even the most elite Dwarfs. This leaves shooting to do most of the work - which can be mitigated.

I would love to see Ironbreakers get pistols. It's in the fluff that they stick pistols out from their shields. This would make them a better value (maybe 14 points) and would make them even more of a rock! The only problem with this is that they'd need new models (and the current ones are pretty cool).

Hammerers should get 2 attacks to separate them from their gromril-clad brothers. Also they should have a 4+ AS and lose the shields.

Anton
20-09-2008, 21:06
Some people say that our elites are strong enough. Sure, vs other 6th edition armies, they are. But by the 7th edition standard, they just don't cut it. Remember that all the other armies that IB's and Hammerers actually stand a chance against will also be upgraded.

My suggestions:

Ironbreakers - Give them 2 attacks and/or strength 5.
Hammerers - Give them Gromril Armour and 2 attacks.

Against Elves with ASF, Elves with Hatred, Daemons with special rules, Blood Knights, Chaos Chosen and god knows what, we need better elites. Especially considering we usually strike last.


As for Dwarfs becoming the 'tech army', I don't like it. They are already techy enough. Warhammer has three techy armies, Dwarfs, Empire and Skaven. And CD if they ever make a comeback. I want my Dwarfs to be versatile. I want to be able to play offensively. I fear that focusing on technology would only emphasize the gunline aspect of the army.
I do want Master Engineers with gyrocopters and experimental weapons though. Just because it's fun and it fits.


I've never understood the Fluff for slayers anyway. "I'm ashamed and don't think I'm good enough to live with the rest of the dwarves. Oh, you too! Let's get together and go fight for them anyway..."What's wrong with that? They are ashamed, yet they love their race and their culture, so they fight for it. To make life better for their kin. They band up because it gives them a sense of brotherhood. Even slayers have a need for a social life. :p

The only thing I dislike is the 'unredeemable' part. There should be a way to atone. Rather than only seeking death, they should be seeking atonement or death, whichever comes first.

Ozorik
20-09-2008, 21:21
Dragon slayers effectiveness depends on how you use them and the sort of list that they feature in. Mine almost always does very well.

The hammerers are obviously better, but not that much better.

For the the wishlisting going on points costs need to be considered. Some of the suggestions posted would up the points cost considerably

RossS
20-09-2008, 21:25
Some people say that our elites are strong enough. Sure, vs other 6th edition armies, they are. But by the 7th edition standard, they just don't cut it. Remember that all the other armies that IB's and Hammerers actually stand a chance against will also be upgraded.

My suggestions:

Ironbreakers - Give them 2 attacks and/or strength 5.
Hammerers - Give them Gromril Armour and 2 attacks.

Against Elves with ASF, Elves with Hatred, Daemons with special rules, Blood Knights, Chaos Chosen and god knows what, we need better elites. Especially considering we usually strike last.


As for Dwarfs becoming the 'tech army', I don't like it. They are already techy enough. Warhammer has three techy armies, Dwarfs, Empire and Skaven. And CD if they ever make a comeback. I want my Dwarfs to be versatile. I want to be able to play offensively. I fear that focusing on technology would only emphasize the gunline aspect of the army.
I do want Master Engineers with gyrocopters and experimental weapons though. Just because it's fun and it fits.

What's wrong with that? They are ashamed, yet they love their race and their culture, so they fight for it. To make life better for their kin. They band up because it gives them a sense of brotherhood. Even slayers have a need for a social life. :p

The only thing I dislike is the 'unredeemable' part. There should be a way to atone. Rather than only seeking death, they should be seeking atonement or death, whichever comes first.

I agree with the non high-tech dwarves. That is the job of the Chaos Dwarfs after all. If GW ever wants to remake them, they should be the one's who get to be one of only two high-tech, shooty "bad guy" armies.

Anton
20-09-2008, 21:42
For the the wishlisting going on points costs need to be considered. Some of the suggestions posted would up the points cost considerably

Consider Sword Masters. M5, WS6, S5, A2, ASF.

Upping the dwarf elites a little shouldn't make them costlier than these, I think. Not by much, anyway. The Dwarfs are tougher, yes, but they can't choose their targets the way Elves can, and they don't strike first. Two huge factors.

Danger Rat
21-09-2008, 12:15
But there armour is vastly superior as well and the swordmasters armour is pants and i would back ironbreakers to beat swordmasters most of the time.

Anton
21-09-2008, 13:03
You would?

Let's say the Swordmasters and the Ironbreakers both have a frontage 5 wide.

Swordmasters strike first: 11 attacks hit on 3+. That's 8 hits. They wound on 3+. That's 5-6 wounds. IB's have a save of 4+. They suffer around 3 wounds.

They strike back. Assuming their champion lives, they have 3 attacks. Which means 1 or 2 hits. Wounding on 3+, let's say 1 wound. Elf saves on 6+, let's say he fails. That's 3-1 to the Swordmasters. The difference in points is so small that the HE player can afford to bring his unit to the same size as the Dwarfs.

And remember, that's assuming the Elves are 5 wide. Often it's best to be 7 wide, for 15 S5 attacks.

Bran Dawri
21-09-2008, 13:51
But there armour is vastly superior as well and the swordmasters armour is pants and i would back ironbreakers to beat swordmasters most of the time.

Swordmasters: heavy armour. Hammerers: heavy armour...

Only ironbreakers have a vastly superior save to swordmasters, and that's cancelled out by SM high strength and sheer number os attacks.

Ozorik
21-09-2008, 16:44
Not forgetting the hammerers T4 of course. Besides comparing similar units in completely different armies is futile.

cafard
23-09-2008, 16:01
Fire is dangerous, flaming attacks shouldn't be as easy as putting a rune on a bolt thrower. Take out the Rune of Burning and bring back the Fire Throwers as a special or rare choice (maybe 2 teams per slot). Plus they fit very nicely visually as an intermediate between foot soldiers and war machines. :)

Lordsaradain
23-09-2008, 16:20
What's all this bring dwarf elite infantry in line with other 7th edition elite infantry? How are they so much worse than Greatswords or Black Orcs?

Danger Rat
23-09-2008, 17:59
You would?

Let's say the Swordmasters and the Ironbreakers both have a frontage 5 wide.

Swordmasters strike first: 11 attacks hit on 3+. That's 8 hits. They wound on 3+. That's 5-6 wounds. IB's have a save of 4+. They suffer around 3 wounds.

They strike back. Assuming their champion lives, they have 3 attacks. Which means 1 or 2 hits. Wounding on 3+, let's say 1 wound. Elf saves on 6+, let's say he fails. That's 3-1 to the Swordmasters. The difference in points is so small that the HE player can afford to bring his unit to the same size as the Dwarfs.

And remember, that's assuming the Elves are 5 wide. Often it's best to be 7 wide, for 15 S5 attacks.

I would based on personal experience of the games ive had with my dwarfs vs h elves and swordmasters vs ironbreakers but that is taking into account the fact my iron breakers usually start a game with a static res of +6 and have a bsb which does give you a reroll if you loose.

I personally see nothing wrong with dwarf elites in there current form ive been playing a long time and they usually stand up to most things

Bran Dawri
23-09-2008, 19:04
What's all this bring dwarf elite infantry in line with other 7th edition elite infantry? How are they so much worse than Greatswords or Black Orcs?

Not in line with other 7th elite infantry, in line with other 7th elites. Dwarfs have no cavalry, so (some of) their infantry should be able to stand up to cavalry.
Also, dwarfs are supposed to be the finest infantry in the world, but are currently put to shame by swordmasters and their ilk.

Danger Rat
24-09-2008, 21:52
Dwarfen infantry does stand up to cavalry on a regular basis or am i missing something

grumbaki
24-09-2008, 22:56
Well, speaking as a dwarf player...

It stands up better than other infantry out there, but it is not a sure run thing. An example I had was 10 Knights of the White Wolf v. 20 warriors. They charge in, kill 3 warriors for no losses back. I lose combat by 3 and get run down. It was a while ago and since then I learned the importance of an extra rank past 20.

Against less 'mundane' cavalry, such as blood knights and chaos chosen, it is much more iffy.

So bascially, from my experience: To stand up to a cavalry charge, dwarfs need at least 25 models to have a chance. To actually win, or do any damage back, they need a hero in the unit. This is of course if the combat is to the front. If they get the dwarfs in the flank, then its over.

Lordsaradain
25-09-2008, 16:59
Well, speaking as a dwarf player...

It stands up better than other infantry out there, but it is not a sure run thing. An example I had was 10 Knights of the White Wolf v. 20 warriors. They charge in, kill 3 warriors for no losses back. I lose combat by 3 and get run down. It was a while ago and since then I learned the importance of an extra rank past 20.

Against less 'mundane' cavalry, such as blood knights and chaos chosen, it is much more iffy.

So bascially, from my experience: To stand up to a cavalry charge, dwarfs need at least 25 models to have a chance. To actually win, or do any damage back, they need a hero in the unit. This is of course if the combat is to the front. If they get the dwarfs in the flank, then its over.

You know that you count the rank bonus at the start of the turn, right? Ie. before combat wounds have been suffered.

edit:
Here's my idea of a sweet rule for ironbreakers to make them more elite;
"Every ironbreaker may reduce the attack characteristic for a model in bae contact by 1 (to a minimum of 1)."

It's kinda fluffy, their armour being able to "fend off" blows in addition to their armour save and will let them survive against multi-attack high-strenght stuff like swordsmasters.

Grom Wronghand
25-09-2008, 17:07
I'd like to see the Gyrocopter scrapped personally. I don't know why, but I just don't like it. I'd also like to see Master Engineers boosted by having them able to carry unique weapons like the empire ones can. Short ranged weapons like shotguns and grenades would be groovy.

Lordsaradain
25-09-2008, 20:55
Not in line with other 7th elite infantry, in line with other 7th elites. Dwarfs have no cavalry, so (some of) their infantry should be able to stand up to cavalry.
Also, dwarfs are supposed to be the finest infantry in the world, but are currently put to shame by swordmasters and their ilk.

Well yeah, what I was trying to say(in a rather poor way) was that empire and orcs and goblins are also pretty short of elites.

static grass
25-09-2008, 21:26
Some good points here. As a dwarf player i would like to see dwarfs ignore the rules for being flank charged. ie they still get their ranks. It could be a charge reaction.

I think the dwarfs will get more steam punk in the future. I am attaching some images from WAR that suggest they might.

Master Engineer? (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/staticgrass/Dwarfs/CA0805_04.jpg)

Master Engineer 2? (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/staticgrass/Dwarfs/CA0805_05.jpg)

Master Engineer 3? (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/staticgrass/Dwarfs/CA0805_06.jpg)


What I hope is that Dwarfs will become more interesting and fun to play with their new book in 5 years time. In the mean time I am going over to chaos.

Danger Rat
27-09-2008, 14:34
Well, speaking as a dwarf player...

It stands up better than other infantry out there, but it is not a sure run thing. An example I had was 10 Knights of the White Wolf v. 20 warriors. They charge in, kill 3 warriors for no losses back. I lose combat by 3 and get run down. It was a while ago and since then I learned the importance of an extra rank past 20.

Against less 'mundane' cavalry, such as blood knights and chaos chosen, it is much more iffy.

So bascially, from my experience: To stand up to a cavalry charge, dwarfs need at least 25 models to have a chance. To actually win, or do any damage back, they need a hero in the unit. This is of course if the combat is to the front. If they get the dwarfs in the flank, then its over.

They dont need 25 to survive 20 is usually fine certainly with the elites with a hero and blocks of 25 gets expensive with dwarfs,

MarvyWill
27-09-2008, 19:41
By and large I think the dwarf army is fine, just like many older armies it is suffering from the new army list power creep.

Lack of mobility/flexibility is obviously its massive liability.

With this in mind, I would propose the following

Runic Items

Allow special units and characters to be upgraded (as an item upgrade not from magic allowance) to have the following:

Magic attacks
Flaming attacks
MR(1)

Heroes

Thane BSB: +1 Dispel Dice in addition to other benefits.
Master Engineer: Allow them to crew any war machine with associated benefits. Allows you to take Gyrocopters as 2 for 1.

Core

Warriors: 1 pt cheaper.
Longbeards: Runic items for champion.
Thunderers: Allow them to move and fire.
Quarrelers: 1 pt cheaper.
Rangers: Allow them to move over difficult terrain without penalties.

Special
Hammerers: 1 pt cheaper. Gromril armour, no shields.Runic items for champion.
Ironbreakers: 1 pt cheaper. Immune to psychology. Allow them to attach weapon teams (fire throwers).Runic items for champion.
Slayers: Allow free 1D6 move and let them scout. Max unit size 10.
Miners: Allow them to come on like tomb scorpions.
Grudge Thrower:Fine. Ignore first misfire.
Bolt thrower:Fine.
Cannon: Fine. Ignore first misfire.

Rare
Flame cannon: Cheaper.
Organ gun: Fine (see Master Engineer suggestion)
Gyrocopter: Cheaper (100 pts) (see Master Engineer suggestion)


Overall not overpowered, just a bit more flexible.

kroq'gar
29-09-2008, 08:56
*Blinks*

FLame cannon CHEAPER? Move and shoot +1 to hit t4 5+/4+ save missile troops?

Dwarves work fine. Stubborn on a 4+? Oathstones (dont even need to deploy it, it still give mr1),

hammerers need gromril armour no shields. Everything else should stay as is- they work fine. I've been beaten solidly by dwarves with all my armies, and theres nothing i've seen they cant stand up to.

Sure their not vampires or deamons... but noone likes vampire or deamons. Just because two armies are insane doesnt mean the others should rise to be just as ridiculas- those two need some rapid changes.

Take for example the swordmasters vs hammerers arguement. How do the swordmaster fair against a hail of crossbows (hint, terribly)l. How can they hold against a heavy infantry charge (hint, terribley). I've ridden over swordmasters, burnt, blasted and spitted them more times than i can remember- its ws5 t4 & stubborn hammerers that are my nightmare.