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Venerable Player
10-11-2005, 21:29
Hi folks,

A couple of days a friend and me started to think about turning our studies into wargaming and start WH Ancient or WM Ancient. Now do you folks have any ideas on which plays nicer, where to get minis, how the games work and how the rules are? Is it like WHFB 5th Edition?

I basically don't now anything, and I don't want to buy two books and then decide which or if any at all to take. :)

Please HELP!! :rolleyes: ;)

VP

Wisdom
10-11-2005, 22:39
Theres absolutely shedloads of minis out there. The miniatures that are in the rulebooks' centre pages are from foundry and are sculpted by michael and alan perry. there at www.wargamesfoundry.com The rules are pretty much the same as warhammer fantasy with the odd little differences, eg half of the archers in rear ranks can fire as well. erm, I'd get the book out and tell you more but its stuffed somewhere in the garage. If you decide to go with a later period than the ancient world such as the samurai and crusader lists in the armies of antiquity book then perry miniatures are good. www.perry-miniatures.com The samurai might be of a later period but the crusaders and muslim armies are the bees knees. Some of the models have real character to them like the set piece scenes such as the turkish emir being presented with a crusader captive or the samurai commiting hari kari (is that the right word?) Anyhow, theres loads of models out there. Have a look on www.frotherunite.com i'm sure you'll find out a loads more minis off of there

Killshot
11-11-2005, 12:50
WAB is great and there are so many suppliments that it will make your head spin. If there is a specific time period that interests you then they will most likely have it. Their latest suppliment is Hannibal and the Punic Wars. There is a yahoo group WABlist@yahoogroups.com that you can join and get all the information you could want and passionately!!

WAB is based off of 5th edition WFB with rules you know and love like the entire army taking a panic test when the general dies and double handed weapons striking last regardless of who charged, etc. But, as Wisdom said, there are some interesting additional rules that set it apart. Too many to list at the moment.

WMA is entirely based off of Warmaster and while I have not played it, it supposedly is exactly same.

A couple of websites that would be helpful are:

http://www.warhammer-historical.com/ Takes you directly to the websites you need and will give you information on all the suppliments. It is supposed to grow!

My personal favorite for all things wargaming historical or fantastical!

www.czapska.com

Chuffy
11-11-2005, 14:28
WMA is entirely based off of Warmaster and while I have not played it, it supposedly is exactly same.

EEEEERRRR. WRONG.

WMA is starting to be called the best thing to happen to Warmaster, indeed GW, in a long time. It takes the original rules an enhances them and fixes many annoying things. In fact it changes quite a few things.

Okay, think how good WM is (better than any other GW game) and make it better.

That is WMA.

Killshot
11-11-2005, 14:38
EEEEERRRR. WRONG.

WMA is starting to be called the best thing to happen to Warmaster, indeed GW, in a long time. It takes the original rules an enhances them and fixes many annoying things. In fact it changes quite a few things.

Cool! As I said I have never played it and don't even have the rulebook. Now I am very tempted to pick it up though! I love Warmaster and if WA is better (like WAB is better than WFB) then it needs to be added to my collection!

Venerable Player
11-11-2005, 15:34
WOW!! Thanks guys, you've been a good deal of help. Keep on commenting, please. I guess we will go with some later period like 6th to 15th century. I am very much interested in Byzantine armies of various ages (does someone own the "Beyond the Golden Gate book"??) and a friend might take some Barbarian Invasion tribes. Franks or so. ;) And of course crusaders and stuff. Both of us study history and I guess we will make it visible in our minis. Maybe we combine it with something like diplomacy to make it feel like Rome Total War (TM) on board. :)

VP

Killshot
11-11-2005, 16:20
The Perry Twins have their own historical line and carry an Early Crusader line that works for both Normans and Crusaders.

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/

Gripping Beast has a fantastic line for the Byzantine era and are very reasonably priced and they even have army deals which include books or free miniatures.

http://www.grippingbeast.com/

There are literally tons of miniature companies that will work, but for the quality and money these are the ones I like.

Check the website in my earlier post for more ranges.

dax
11-11-2005, 17:49
Warmaster Ancients Miniatures (10mm)

Steve Barber Miniatures:
http://www.sbarber-models.clara.net/main.html
Best 10mm miniatures out there. Imperial Romans, Germans and Parthians

Old Glory (UK):
http://www.oldgloryuk.com/disp_items.php?m=28&s=94
Biggest range by far. Good Quality

Chariot Miniatures:
http://www.magistermilitum.com/cm-10mmancients.htm

Pendraken:
http://www.pendraken.co.uk/

AIM:
http://www.minifigs.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=41_1

Irregular:
http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/

Persephone
11-11-2005, 18:06
Yes, warmaster ancients is like warmaster 1.5, it cleans up a lot of confusing things and problems that occurred in the mechanics of the game.

Cpt. Drill
11-11-2005, 19:08
Egad! Two warmaster threads in year! Obviously the players have been reproducing!

I really want to get into the WMA I fancy doing gaul!

Chuffy
11-11-2005, 21:40
Cool! As I said I have never played it and don't even have the rulebook. Now I am very tempted to pick it up though! I love Warmaster and if WA is better (like WAB is better than WFB) then it needs to be added to my collection!

There are some nice additions like combats only go on for two rounds now and aren't neverending affairs. And the addition of skirmishing/minor units which don't count towards how many units you've lost for the purposes of breaking (possible use of goblins in the future?).

A good idea is to add in the visibility rules of BoFA and the extra rules of WMA into normal WM. It does equal the win.

Thats also a good point, I really hope they add in some WAB rules into 7th (6.5?) ed WHFB. Like half of the back rank of archers being able to fire and the rules for controlled retreats in Shieldwall.

Venerable Player
12-11-2005, 11:34
Egad! Two warmaster threads in year! Obviously the players have been reproducing!

I really want to get into the WMA I fancy doing gaul!


Well in our case it's less reproducing. :D It's just the hobby and the studies. Maybe we're going for Warmaster, becuase I love huge battles and we don't have the space or terrain pieces for large scale battles in the warhammer scale. Sadly... :( Right now the Foundry-site blows my mind, especially as it's one of the few with Byzantine minis. The problem with GW minis is they are so damn good, so some of the metal minis from other producers just look like 20 years back... :(

VP

Killshot
12-11-2005, 11:53
Yeah, I will agree that some of the metal minis look like they are from 20 years ago, mainly because they are. Foundry has some fantastic models and then some not so fantastic models. I don't really like their Gauls, Germans or Vikings as well as I like Gripping Beast. Gripping Beast seems more realistic to me as most of Foundry barbarians remind me of Orcs.

Another huge wargaming company is Old Glory. They are largely a U.S based company but they do have a U.K branch. Their miniatures are hit and miss (I am told, I haven't ordered from them yet, but I am going to soon), but they have some awesome prices (30 minis plus conmmand for $29.00).

You could also take a look at Black Tree Design. They have a 30% off sale and have some good unit packs.

Griefbringer
12-11-2005, 15:34
Foundry is a bit of a mixed bag: their newer material is pretty good (though they haven't done much releases lately, mainly due to having little left in the way of sculptors) while some of their older stuff is starting to show its age. Some of those models are 20 years old - and actually some of those models are 20 years old Citadel figs, that have had their rights sold to Foundry in the 90's.

I have started painting an army of Foundry late medieval Swiss - quite nice figures in my opinion, though perhaps a bit old.

ratatosk
13-11-2005, 20:18
Well, WHAB is great. The minis are cheaper, often of just as good quality as GWs, and if you want to use a smaller scale (such as 15mm) a reasonable sized force can be collected quickly and is easy for transport, smaller playing areas are needed etc.

Also with the "Period" books available its highly customisable, the books i can remember off the top of my head cover the Dark Ages (Vikings, Saxons, Normans, Franks, Norse-Irish (Killer :) ) Irish, Welsh etc..) High Medieval (Medieval Europe), The fall of the Roman Empire (Barbarian (including Attila and the lads :) ), Late Romans, and mixed (good for the Excalibur books by Bernard Cornwall), Beyond the Golden Gate (the rise of Islam and the fall of the Byzantines), Reconquista (Spanish and such against the Muslims in Spain), and most recently the Punic wars (think Hannibal).

The main book covers Imperial Empire and there Barbarian opponents.

Warmaster Ancients is good if you liked the fantasy version, not so good if you do not, and the lists are very varied, and cover loads of periods.

Also there is talk of an American Civil War version to be released at some point in the future, which should be interesting.

Venerable Player
13-11-2005, 20:50
I DO like Fantasy warhammer and from what I see in the army builder I WILL like Ancient Battles... :)

VP

Griefbringer
13-11-2005, 22:06
The main book covers Imperial Empire and there Barbarian opponents.


I guess you meant Imperial Rome. And you missed a couple of the supplements, like Alexander the Great and Spartacus. Anyway, the full list should be on the website.

For those more into burning gunpowder, there is also Warhammer English Civil War, which is a separate game and not a WAB supplement. Ruleswise it is more based on WHFB 6th edition.

Griefbringer
14-11-2005, 11:49
Mind it, Foundry is also running a discount on some of the WAB books:

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/xmas/books/wab.asp

Not huge discounts, but remember that the price includes the postage.

colhodg
14-11-2005, 13:23
Do Both! Neither of the rule books are going to change anytime soon, and warmaster is likely to be pretty cheap as the cost of 10mm ancients is reasonable. Romans are a relatively cheap army for WAB.

I've only played WAB but found it very easy to convert my mates who played warhammer - taking magic weapons and magic away seems to improve the 5th ed system - variety in units tends to be just down to special rules and how they interact (beyond the basic cavalry/skirmisher/ranked troops). For this reason you might find it easier to find opponents for WAB.

Also don't be too judgemental of the figures - they're not as good as GW but they are nearly 1/3 the price in some cases and when you get the units ranked up they look every bit as good - save the nicest figures/paint jobs for the front rank and command stands/banners. Gripping beast, foundry and the perry twins range are all good manufacturers - enjoy.

Venerable Player
14-11-2005, 17:39
Well maybe we will do both at some time, but I cannot afford buying tons of minis for 2 games. Especially considering we might play 2 armies each to cover more time eras. :)

VP

Cpt. Drill
14-11-2005, 17:54
WMA looks cool! although most of the recomended sites really need to have more avalible pictures... because just saying a model is a roman is not very helpful!

Griefbringer
14-11-2005, 18:37
For those living in the US, Old Glory has extended their 40% discount for their ancients and medieval ranges. This means that a bag of 30 infantry in 25mm scale costs less than 18 USD. Perhaps not the most spectacular miniatures out there, but you cannot beat the price.

generulpoleaxe
15-11-2005, 23:07
i highly recomend the pendraken minis for warmaster ancients.

their army packs are fantastic value.

old glory cavalry is realy nice as well.

for your generals and subordinates i recommend magister militum(chariot miniatures).

i don't have a web site at the moment but if any one wants pictures of pendrakens imperial romans, celts or greeks send an email and i will sort you out.

chris.

Chuffy
16-11-2005, 06:47
WMA looks cool! although most of the recomended sites really need to have more avalible pictures... because just saying a model is a roman is not very helpful!

Like Old Glory.

Some of their stuff is really, really nice. However you have no idea what most of it looks like.

I can't help but think they would sell so much more models if they just got a guy with a digi-cam to take some photos of them.

Griefbringer
16-11-2005, 09:46
Well, Old Glory has pictures for most of their 25mm range - unfortunately a lot of those pictures are of a rather questionable quality.

Venerable Player
16-11-2005, 21:26
Oh, and yet another question from my people:
Does anyone know a good place to get shedloads of transfer sheets?
Especially Teutonic Knights?
I guess my friend rules out buying BT sheets for money reasons. ;)

VP

Griefbringer
16-11-2005, 21:56
Veni Vidi Vici productions does make a range of transfer sheets for historicals (could also be used on fantasy models), and they are available in a variety of colours. See their website for a more detailed listing:

http://www.3vwargames.co.uk/prodindex.htm

Edit: IIRC Teutonic knights used straight crosses, while the maltese crosses (BT style) were used by the Knights of St. John (aka Knights Hospitaliers, later on also known as Knights of Malta). Actually, it is still in use, though the order has turned from a knightly order into something of a charity organisation, I have seen myself members of the order with yellow t-shirt with the black maltese cross on it.

Anyway, Veni Vidi Vici website lists Maltese crosses, if you need them. Just pick the size and colour you want to have. For straight crosses, that should be manageable even without transfers.

generulpoleaxe
16-11-2005, 22:14
at the moment veni vidi vici only do 15mm and 25mm scale transfers.

they are looking into doing 10mm transfers, but this will take time.

little big men studios also do transfers which are great for people who don't like highlighting their transfers.
http://www.chilternminiatures.co.uk/html/littlebigmenstudios_shield_tra.html

Cpt. Drill
17-11-2005, 15:54
YAY! My WMA book arrived and I have to say its very pretty with 25 army lists!

I want to get a fair few amount of the armies in the book!

Venerable Player
17-11-2005, 17:30
Edit: IIRC Teutonic knights used straight crosses, [...]


My fault. :wtf: I should so damnwell know it better... :eyebrows:

VP

Griefbringer
17-11-2005, 17:34
Well, there is nothing wrong with playing the knights of st. John either - they got into a plenty of scraps with the Turks since their settling on the Rhodes.

Though I do not think there is any official army list for them, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to use some of the other lists for the same purpose.

ratatosk
17-11-2005, 22:48
I have Republican Romans and Carthaginians for WMA all painted and playtested, at the moment im building a Celt army, i really like WMA, it plays great and a decent sized army can be bought without breaking the bank

colhodg
18-11-2005, 08:15
Going to get WMA this Christmas - looks really good. Should I go for 10mm (cheap) or 15mm which loks a bit nicer IMO. Warmaster proper is 10mm so wondered if it plays better in 10mm? 15mm would be better for me as can use scenery for my flames of war stuff, but do you use the same sized bases or what?

Griefbringer
18-11-2005, 08:42
If you went for a 15mm scale, I would recommend keeping the same size of bases and just mounting less figures on them. One could even go for 20mm and keep the same size of bases for infantry and cavalry.

Luke
18-11-2005, 09:52
i have the core book and the armies of chivalry army book, purely for the re-creating of the battle of boswroth. i get my minis from...... old glory i think. you will find that a lot of the miniatures out there are cheaper than GW and at least as detailed and competant as GW


i think whab is a vast improvement on the whfb ruleset, if only for the massed archery rule

Venerable Player
19-11-2005, 12:41
Well I'll be going for Byzantines, of course. ;) And after reading the rulebook (yeah!) I have to say the rules are great. I always missed archers firing ballistically in Fantasy, I like the movement rules etc.

I just have to go through the errata and get the Byzantine book, as in Chivalry there are only late Byzantines and in the Ancient book there are only few options and some units missing.

VP

Killshot
19-11-2005, 13:13
Check out the Gripping Beast Byzantine range it is huge!

Brandir
19-11-2005, 15:04
Just to let everyone know, it looks like GW will be updating the WAB rulebook:

'a new version of Warhammer Ancient Battles is being released at the end of this year. This edition will feature all the rules, all the bloodshed and mayhem of historical warfare, plus previously unpublished errata and much, much more!'

Quote taken from UK WD 312 (Dec 2005) page 10.

Freak Ona Leash
19-11-2005, 16:40
Just to let everyone know, it looks like GW will be updating the WAB rulebook:

'a new version of Warhammer Ancient Battles is being released at the end of this year. This edition will feature all the rules, all the bloodshed and mayhem of historical warfare, plus previously unpublished errata and much, much more!'

Quote taken from UK WD 312 (Dec 2005) page 10.
*giddy spasm* Freak is teh happy. :D

Venerable Player
19-11-2005, 18:31
@Killshot & Brandir
Thanks for the Infos.

So I might wait until next year. Do you think it is likely for the rules to change? If they do, I might not buy the sourcebook for Byzantine armies so soon.

VP

Griefbringer
19-11-2005, 20:57
I doubt there will be any big changes in the rules - and for sure the old supplements will still be valid (they just don't have the resources to overhaul them). So go and grab that Byzantines book, it is supposed to be good!

Venerable Player
19-11-2005, 21:02
From what they say is in there, it sure is! :) After I saw the Chivalry army lists in the Army Builder, I knew, that's the game to go. YEAH, and Byzantium will be my ph.d. topic, so I can't miss moving it's armies. ;)

VP

Gwedd
20-11-2005, 02:56
Comrades,

I have enjoyed the WAC rules. I have also bought nearly all my historical minis, (both 15mm and 25mm) from Old Glory. They are far and away the best historical minis for the money out there. Despite the glommy images on the site, these figures just beg to be painted, and you always get a variety of minis in each bag.

What I mean by that is this: You get, say, 30 figures in a bag, including command. You will get 4 basic poses (IE: all running, or all advancing, etc) with slight head and body variations. That gives the painted unit more the look of a moving group of indivisuals rather than cookie-cutter toy soldiers.

For the Byzantines, I'd also reccomend another reread of Procopius' seminal work. There's little bits gere and there that will help add some color and role-play if you choose that era. It is, of course, in 8 or so volumes, but a nice little read none the less:)

Respects,

Gwedd

Venerable Player
20-11-2005, 11:24
Thanks Gwedd, I read Prokopios for my mid-exam in history (About the diplomatic relations of the Merovingian Franks and the Byzantine Emprie). His writing are well done and just in case I will play in Justinian's era, I will look into him again.

Maybe I will order some Perry minis for alliied tribesman. Armenians, Turcopoles and Turkomanes look great, too.

VP