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EvC
08-10-2008, 12:10
Reading the Sigmar book, it seems that they've tried to shoe-horn in the White Wolves as existing from the dawn of the Empire in Reikdorf... I thought they were always formed in Middenheim, after the Crusades? So what's the dealio..?

CommanderCax
08-10-2008, 13:40
According to ancient Teutogen tradition, the High Priest Ar-Ulric is expected to raise and maintain his own force for the defence of the temple and the faith, and to honour the wolf-god in battle with their valiant deeds. The position of Ar-Ulric existed long before Middenheim was founded.
The Brotherhood of the Axe has origins going back to the days before Sigmar, when the Teutogens were the most powerful tribe in what is now the northern part of the Empire. They were an elite warrior society made up of the very finest Teutogen warriors. When Sigmar united the tribes and founded the Empire, the Brotherhood of the Axe retained its original role. Nowadays the Brotherhood is an elite and exclusive order within the Teutogen Guard, which in turn is an elite unit within the Knights of the White Wolf.
So the Brotherhood of the Axe can certainly be seen as a predecessor of the Knights of the White Wolf, to which it evolved so to speak.

Regarding the Crusades, I think you confuse the White Wolves with the Knights Panther.

ChaosTicket
08-10-2008, 13:47
The White Wolves are one of the largest Knight Orders with bases all around the empire, but with central organisation in Middenheim and act as Templars of the Cult of Ulric.

Ar-Ulric is essentially their religious leader compare to how the Grand Theogonist Volkmar is the religious leader of the Sigmarite Knights.

the White Wolves also continue the ancient Teutogen traditions.

I don't think the White Wolves distinctly fought in the Araby Crusades. Sure they did like most others, but it was the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Knights Panther that gained distinction for seperate reasons.

EvC
08-10-2008, 16:56
Ah yes I thought I might be confusing their role in the crusades. Still, it does seem odd how they are directly described as being called White Wolves, with plate armour, barded horses etc. in the time of Sigmar. (Even weirder when it's not like they'd probably not sell any new models from touting them like that, what with their poor rules!)

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-10-2008, 22:18
They might have been called White Wolves, but plate mail and barded horses? At the time of Sigmar? I didn't thought humans were that advanced at that time?

EvC
08-10-2008, 22:32
That's why it seemed off! At first they were just riding the strongest horses and fighting with hammers, then a bit of time passes and BOF they're basically the White Wolves of the present day...

ChaosTicket
08-10-2008, 23:20
Um, no. At the Time of sigmar they would have had steppe horses, warhammers, and at best some chain mail. With the advancers in technology and training they now would have Great hammers, plate armor, and barder Chargers.

Ethlorien
09-10-2008, 17:11
Unless the dwarves had already taught that stuff to them?

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-10-2008, 22:08
But they hadn't. That came about as a result of the alliance with Sigmar driving the Orcs out, so wouldn't have been armoured like that at the time.

Ethlorien
09-10-2008, 22:49
Okay - I wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing it up though.

EvC
09-10-2008, 22:54
The alliance with Sigmar first started when Sigmar saved King Kurgan from the Orcs, some time before he became King of his own tribe. So they'd already started teaching humans some of their skills by then. But as said, it seemed like too great a leap for my suspension of disbelief...

Griefbringer
10-10-2008, 09:49
I don't think the White Wolves distinctly fought in the Araby Crusades. Sure they did like most others, but it was the Knights of the Blazing Sun and Knights Panther that gained distinction for seperate reasons.

Knights Panther claim themselves to be the oldest of the knightly orders around, and they were themselves founded from amongst knights who returned from the crusades. Another knightly order organised by the returners were the Knights of the Blazing Sun.

Arnizipal
10-10-2008, 11:53
Perhaps they don't count the White Wolves because they are technically Templars?

Arguleon-veq
10-10-2008, 18:22
Im sure its explained in the books that as time goes on they were breeding their horses to be stronger. Their alliance with the Taluetens was it? brought saddle technology. Their great alliance with the Dwarfs producing greater armour. Allowing for Plate Mail clad Knights on Barded Horses.

The White Wolves are a Unberogen[sp?] formation in Sigmar Time of Legends, you have to consider that at the time that tribe were also dedicated to Ulric, as was all the realms of what was to become the Empire. So an Ulrican formation was not out of place.

The Warriors Eternal of the Tuetagens were much like modern day Greatswords with their two handed swords and platemail, forged by the Dwarfs.

Its probably just a case that over the thousands of years between. The cultures merged and evovled. The Warriors Eternal/Greatswords become a common formation in all the Empires realms, as a protector of the Lords and Counts. No doubt originating from how valiantly the Warriors Eternal performed. Where as the White Wolves, templars of Ulric, with the diminishing worship for their god, relocated to a place where the worship of their god remained stronger. His home in Middenheim with the Tuetogens. With the Unberogens worshipping Sigmar they no doubt felt closer to the Tuetogens with their continued worship of Ulric.

2500 years is a long time and with the changing in religion since the death of Sigmar. It seems a pretty reasonable explanation.

EvC
10-10-2008, 18:57
Yep, seems fair enough. Similar with the Ushabti being given a big role in the Nagash book (Even though they weren't really Ushabti like we know).