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View Full Version : Slew of High Elf Questions, concerns and need for Ideas



Emeraldw
29-10-2008, 01:09
Good evening everyone. So I am preparing a High Elf army for myself. I currently have a Wood Elf army but I just love Elven Lore and Playstyle. So I'm putting my Vampire counts on the backburner for now and starting my high elves. As a result I wanted to ask everyone a slew of questions about army composition, ideas for painting/modeling and even ideas on using my High Elves for other things.

Army List questions:

1. Do I need RBT's to be effective?

I have two friends who play Elves as well but they play Dark and High elves (I play wood normally). They swear by their repeater bolt throwers. My Dark Elf friend uses his to keep up with current armies and my High Elf friend uses his well every game. But against me, they don't last long at all and I wonder about who they play but of course my army isn't like others.

So basically, should I always use two RBT's? In a way I want to differentiate myself and use more archers or even shadow warriors with a great eagle to march block. I would love opinions on bolt throwers in general and on how much you like your bolt throwers since I've never played with war machines.

2. What special units do you recommend and what size?

I know I want a white lion chariot since I love the model and how useful they appear. I'm planning Phoenix Guard, White Lions and Dragon Princes atm. How many should I run the infantry elite? I'm thinking groups of 15.

Modeling:

1. Silver Helms as Dragon Princes?

Dragon princes are expensive so I was thinking of converting Silver helms. Any ideas on how to make this look better or will a paint job and "count as" be enough for most people? Someone had mentioned something about a High Elf cav box with options for all the types but I'm not sure how credible it is, but if true it makes it a lot easier especially since.....

2. Running High Elves as Brettonnians?

Wait, hear me out! I'm a tight wad when it comes to money and I like to get the most out of what I buy. Currently I'm painting and doing a little converting my Eldar into Dark Eldar so I can run them as both (in friendly games btw). Elves are elite right? So why can't they run Bret lance formations! High Elves can get Pegasai too right?! I think there is potential for Narration and as a way of getting more out of the army. Any cool ideas for conversion or ideas on it?

Painting.

1. What colors do I paint my High Elves!?

Seriously, I need more help High Elves are blue/gold usually. But I don't want that! I don't want green since I got ork and wood elves, I have enough green! I also have an idea for scab Red (or a dark red)/bleach bone (with varying color options on the aspect warriors) with my Eldar. I was thinking of doing Red/Mithral silver. Not sure how it will turn out though. Anyone have any ideas? What cool color combinations can you think of?

Ok, that is all I think. Those are all my questions summed up into one post to get the most out of the space. Thank you for all your help and my apologies if I'm taking up to much space.

Bretonnian Lord
29-10-2008, 01:27
AFAIK, High Elves cannot take Pegasi. Their mounts are Horses, Chariots, Eagles, Griffons, Moon/Sun/Star Dragons, which are more than adequate mounts! However, there is nothing to stop you from proxying a Bretonnian army using High Elf models (although this probably wouldn't work in a Tournament and against some stricter opponents)

As for the RBT question- my friend maxes out all his RBTs in every game we play, and I can say thet 24 strength 4 AP shots a turn hurts. However, you don't need them to be successful- those rare slots and/or points can also be spent elsewhere.

For specials, I personally think White Lions and Swordmasters are steals. Stubborn, Strength 6 ASF with protection from shooting? And 2A strength 5 ASF? Two units perfect for cutting up cavalry and infantry. And with the extra special slots bonus High Elves get, you can take more of them!

My friend paints his High Elves white and red and I think it looks pretty good. You can either make them all shiny and clean or try for a gritty, battle hardened look. Either would look cool I'd think.

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 02:01
Personally, I LOVE repeater bolt throwers almost as much as I love repeater crossbows. do you need them? NO. It depends on your playingstyle. I prefer them as a means of killing of knights or heavy infantry. But I do not always use them.

I love Swordmasters. Im doing a lot of those in my WIP army. I use regiments of 20, but some are 19 to make room for a character. Ideal number is 25 (to preserve ranks when taking ranged attacks)

Go ahead and convert silverhelms! Id really like to see them! Hope you make a project log about it (throw me a PM if you do;))
As for converting silverhelms into dragonprinces AND bettonian knights, I am a bit sceptic. but in friendly games, why not! (I use skelletal riders for goblin wolfriders now and then, dont tell anyone;))

You seem very conserned about using up space. dont worry, its the internett, a free world for wonders^^

Thats why I can do this:






(or not make a lot of spaces. the mods might get cranky!)


I am also currently building my HE army, and so have no personal experience with them. Hopefully Fraggzy will see this thead, he is a seasoned HE veteran (he played HE as his first race, and has done so ever since)

As HE is kind of a la-di-da race, Id recomend shiny bright colors contrasted by dark. I do a golden armor with green contrasting. It works very well (I also work in a bit of white and red on smaller details)

Cheers:D

NecronBob
29-10-2008, 02:16
1) RBTs are the best thing that we have in the shooting phase. For ten points less than 10 archers, you get 6 strength 4 shots w/ armor piercing instead of 10 strength 3 shots (as well as the option for the rank piercing bolt). Of course you don't have to have them, but they are one of our most useful units.

2) Dragon Princes are great. I take 5 with no upgrades, and they do just fine as a flanking unit. Sometimes I go crazy and take a couple more (7-9) and slap a BSB with Battle Banner for a unit that can break just about anything.

I prefer white lions to phoenix guard for the anvil unit, although both have strengths. In a 2k game, I use units of 15 with full command. They are great with the Lion Banner to protect against auto break from fear.

You didn't mention swordmasters, but I think they work best in smaller units used to support your big blocks. 7 with no command (or if I have points only the champion) seems to be the magic number for me.

Modeling: Both your questions are "counts as" questions. No one I play with would have a problem with it, but you wouldn't be able to do it in any of the local tournaments.

Painting: Red is a very popular color for elves. Check out Ctran's red and white scheme:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24671

My all time favorite paint jobs are green. For example:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/84075

theunwantedbeing
29-10-2008, 02:29
1. You dont need bolt throwers.
2. Depends wideley upon how many units and what other troops you wish to field.
Generally starting at 2 unit's of 20 and then splitting to 4 units of 10 get's you going in a useful direction.

1. You need to make them look more "fancy" to be effectively used as dragon princes.
How you choose to do this is upto personal preference.
2. No.

1. Scab red and bone eh? Sounds worth doing. Pick 2 colours at random, use those. Always makes for an interesting colour scheme.

Emeraldw
29-10-2008, 02:59
1. You dont need bolt throwers.
2. Depends wideley upon how many units and what other troops you wish to field.
Generally starting at 2 unit's of 20 and then splitting to 4 units of 10 get's you going in a useful direction.

1. You need to make them look more "fancy" to be effectively used as dragon princes.
How you choose to do this is upto personal preference.
2. No.

1. Scab red and bone eh? Sounds worth doing. Pick 2 colours at random, use those. Always makes for an interesting colour scheme.

Why flat out no? Shouldn't be too hard to do a counts as. Plus conversions oppurtunities.

The dark red and Bleach bone is for my Eldar, not my High Elves and I'm not even sure on that as I am doing my Aspects first. My high Elves are possibly going to be Red/Mithril Silver maybe. but I'm asking for ideas that don't involve green or blue/gold.

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 03:26
As I said, it would not likely be a problem to use count as models in a friendly match. In tournaments it would be a problem, but not in any other occasion (unless your playing someone that hates counts as models, but I dont know any of those yet:p)

I have eldar in the color sheme dark red with white. Ill post a picture if you like

With silverhelms. Just put some wings on their helmets:p. nobody can say against you. if you say they are dragonprinces, they are dragonprinces (this does not go like "this empire handgunner is a chaos warrior in disguise". I think you know what I mean)

MonkeyLord
29-10-2008, 03:44
Army List
1.) I wouldn't say you *need* bolt throwers... There are plenty of people who build great lists without them. Personally, as a Dark Elf player, I wouldn't leave home without at least two, simply because they are one of the best things I have to use against fast cav, flying monsters, and other flanking baddies. And the single shot from the flank scares the poop out of armies with lots of heavy cav (Empire, Brets, Chaos, etc). But that's entirely up to you and the chemistry of your list.

2.) Hard to go wrong with Pheonix Guard, White Lions, Dragon Princes, or Sword Masters. These are all excellent units... But expect them to attract a lot of missile fire, too. As far as numbers for the infantry, depends on what they're expected to do. Sword Masters, with 2 attacks each, generate a lot of active combat res, so I would probably field them in ranks of 6. Some people even opt for 7. So a unit of 12 to 14 should do fine. As for the others, units of 15 (5x3) should be fine.

Modeling
1.) Iffy. You'd be hard pressed to pass of Silver Helms as DPs, no matter how much converting you do. And Honestly, you don't need many DPs anyway. A single unit of 5 will usually more than suffice, especially considering how expensive they are (points wise).

2.) Yeah, you could run High Elves as Bretonnians... But your list would be distinctly un-elfy. Not to mention the fact that *all* your infantry would absolutely suck. ;) Who's ever heard of a WS2 BS3 elf with a leadership of 5? High Elf toddlers might fit the bill, but not the average foot soldier, and ESPECIALLY not the elites. If you opted to do this, then the meat and potatoes of the high elves, their elite infantry, suddenly goes out the window, and you wind up with cavalry that is only marginally better than your own. I just don't think it's a good match. The Bretonnian armylist and its play style is distinctly Arthurian Human, and doesn't convey any of the elvish qualities that make High Elves interesting. And your opponents would likely just roll their eyes at you anyway. ;)

Painting
1.) Scab Red highlighted with Blood Red contrasting against creme colored cloth would look very, very sharp, especially with gold accoutrements. If you've ever seen some of the Protectorate of Menoth minis from Warmachine, you'll know what I mean. But if you're trying to get away from that, you could try Dark Green/Creme/Gold, Red/Creme/Gold, Red/White/Silver, Purple/White/Gold. Don't be afraid to do something different!

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 03:52
MonkeyLord: I got a carnifex converted to a lobbster as my Giant in goblin army. No complains there:p. I dont thing he would have much of a problem passing silverhelms as DPs, if converted well.

As unit size for heavy cavy, Id go for 6 (packs a little extra punch as well as making sure not to lose the flanking advantage. You guessed by now, I use heavy cavy as flankers:))

Fraggzy
30-10-2008, 08:53
1-Personally i never use RBTs, i simply find them lacking in destructive power. the only thing they are good at is agains low save and low toughtness opponents. (and i usually play agains high T or high save) But if they work for you... go ahead try them

2-I never leave home without a regiment of swordmasters and DONT run in regiments of 15! this will result in harder battles as you will get outnumbered and have 1 less combat resulotion with only 2 ranks and after the first round of combat you will lose 1 model thereby reducing your rank bonus to 1. So then you will have to aim too kill atleast 3 models a turn and then he kills non of yours! (this might not be a problem with swordmasters, but its good to be safe and if he has shooting the more the better)

the Dragon princes are very good if used by a skilled player (good even with a unskilled player) They might cost many points but the sheer destructive power of their charge is owerwhelming for most enemies (if the DP charge) I have found out that these are best in groups of 5 or 6 as they dont need an extra rank for combat res for that many points! then it is better having a second unit.

phoenix gurards can be good, they can take a beating and still refuse to die and your best choise with these are also running in groups of 20, thereby you will have a as big regiment as that you are facing and most likely win combat res thereby breaking the enemy unit (fear)

Against armies that are high T or high save or when you usually play with much wooden terrain then they are good. I run them in groups of 10 and more as a support unit than an accuall combat unit.


As furrymiguell has said you can convert on silverhelms to make them look like dragon princes by adding wings to their helmets and mounts and so on, but remember they will never look as good as the real dragon princes (not unless you are a skilled modeller)

elves cant get pegassi no... and i dont really fancy the idea of running lance formation with them either, but you are welcome to try.

as for collour you can try red and gold (or red and yellow) i think i saw some painted like that and they looked great

Desert Rain
30-10-2008, 12:21
RBTs are great and I never leave home without my couple.

I use my silver helms as dragon princes (DPs are to expensive and I already have SH)

I paint my elves white and red and it looks really good.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-10-2008, 12:30
1. Do I need RBT's to be effective?



No. Not in any way what so ever. The RBT is, IMO one of the worst warmachine in the game for it's point cost. You are paying through the nose for flexibility (and abilities it used to have but no longer have), and especially in a Dark Elf army you don't get much for it as the multiple shot option is pretty much covered by RXBs. It is a bit better in a High Elf army because there Archers are worse (much worse) than RXB armed warriors and High Elves have the chance of supporting it by magic (Curse of Arrow Attraction).

That's not to say it's a bad war machine as so, just that for a 100 points it seems lacking compared to almost all other warmachines and I think that all the elf armies can do just fine without. If you really feel you need the single point punch you would be better of with a DoW cannon. It's cheaper and more effective in that role, and both armies have other options to replace the repeater shots. Bring it if you like it and feel it adds to your army, but don't feel as if you have to bring it or that it's the lunchpin of an elf army.

Mireadur
30-10-2008, 14:15
i totally agree with Gorbad, they are extremely overpriced (specially for the HE) However they are a need in most games since you will need those S6 D3 wounds to take down some stuff or the x6 shots agaisnt light cav (not useful agaisnt much else really).

You sure can play without them but agaisnt some armies you will have a quite harder time if dont include 1 or 2.

theunwantedbeing
30-10-2008, 14:47
Why flat out no? Shouldn't be too hard to do a counts as. Plus conversions oppurtunities.

The dark red and Bleach bone is for my Eldar, not my High Elves and I'm not even sure on that as I am doing my Aspects first. My high Elves are possibly going to be Red/Mithril Silver maybe. but I'm asking for ideas that don't involve green or blue/gold.


Flat out no because you shouldnt ever proxy if you can help it.
Getting into the mindset of being okay with proxying results in making yourself a lazy gamer (In my personal experience of people proxying).

Seems I misread about the colour scheme....
Red + silver tends to work, perhaps you should go for a non-metallic colour for the metals? Silver + some other colour tends to be very overused for high elves.

Going for a grey colour on the armour and edge it with a lighter colour is a way of staying away from the usual colour scheme that seems to plague high elf armies. Depends how you are at putting lines on models though, or whether you can be bothered too!

isidril93
30-10-2008, 22:08
rbt
very good but best in groups of 2. you do NOT need them but they do better than archers. plus quite a nice model

elites
DP are quite good (dont bother with SH). swordmasters are AMAZING and do what elves were born to do...kill. the other 2 are good and what they lack in killing power they make up for in defence.

colour sceme
red and silver are very good...just use a bit of green here and there, like in gems.

Foxbat
31-10-2008, 13:20
Like most army books, itís important that you first identify the type of army you wish to have. However, with HE this initial decision is more important than usual as the high troop costs result HE lists being smaller that most other armies for the same points. Making this decision will make your unit selections more apparent.

For example, with a fast shock unit based list, you would likely have minimal magic, shooting, and infantry selections. This means you have to select the absolute minimum Core units (none are cavalry/chariots) while selecting the maximum Specials (Dragon Princes and Lion Chariots), after spending points on appropriate Characters (i.e. lord on Star Dragon, etc). Any excess points after you have used all your Specials can be used on Rare slots or increasing the Core unit sizes.

Also, for more specific HE discussions, you can also look on www.ulthuan.net.

Von Wibble
31-10-2008, 14:00
Gorbad is absolutely right about RBT. I use high elves and dark elves and only very rarely use them. You have magic, bow fire (lothern sea guard are very effective in this regard as they provide missile fire and back up your line), eagles and reavers to deal with fast stuff the RBT might target. None of these things give 100vps a time. And unlike cannons the rbt doesn't take out virtually a chariot a turn, unlike helblasters it doesn't scare units into keeping well back, and unlike other armies bolt throwers it isn't cheap (you get 3 goblin bolt throwers for the price of 1rbt). Hence the fact I regard it as the worst war machine in the game. If multiple shots ignored armour it would be about right, otherwise its worth about 65pts.

Against high T stuff the bolt thrower looks more necessary. Except it isn't. You have S5/6 ASF troops, and you have a S7 character potentially.

Some people swear by their RBT. I have never understood why - I'm sure those same people could achieve an easier victory with an extra line unit, eagle and fast cav unit instead. For the points that's what you lose out on.

Special units - I use my elite infantry in 2 ranks of 7. This allows lots of attacks that mean I don't tend to get struck back at, and the kills more than compensate for lack of CR. finally such aformation is a lot cheaper than a 20 man block, and shooting then becomes less of an issue as the perception is that the threat level is lower. All 3 types are good. Banner of balance/lion standard recommended to remove fear as a factor.

I have also heard of "detachment" units of 7 being used - such units are very cheap as backup to spearmen, and with extra special slots such an army is feasable. They still pack plenty of punch even if charged. Why 7? Because with 5 wide rules all 7 are guaranteed to strike.

I think paint job and counts as for dragon princes will not be enough. I personally play in an environment where proxying is fine, but appreciate that most don't. Ditto for Brets. Btw there used to be a pegasus rider model for high elves, and the Pegasus until recently had the same rules as the eagle (dark elf book added +1S on charge). Taking a High elf pegasus rider and using "counts as" eagle would at least for me cause no problems.

My own high elves use turquoise, silver, gold and white, with purple added for elite units. If you take silver and white as given (which obviously you do not have to do!) then most bright colours will work fine. Red should be OK.

Mireadur
31-10-2008, 14:21
Hey Von could post some pics of your army?

NecronBob
31-10-2008, 14:27
On the other hand, RBTs are the only way for HE to build an effective shooting phase. Archers are way too expensive for what they bring to the table. Again, 110 points for 10 str. 3 shots vs. 100 points for 6 str. 4 armor piercing shots with the option to fire a d3 wounds single shot at a monster or a flank shot through a unit of cavalry. The bolt throwers also get 18" more range.

As for their usefulness vs. another block of combat troops, my bolt throwers have always shined against things that infantry has difficulty stopping: flyers, fast cavalry, and enemy warmachine. I agree that one could substitute magic for this role, but at least in my area, there is enough magic defense to pin a two wizard magic phase down for two rounds. You could add an archmage, another mage, or the ring of fury, but then you are getting around the bolt thrower's cost.

In my experience, bolt throwers fill a valuable roll in the HE list for most army builds. If you go for a movement or high magic build, they become less valuable, but otherwise, they seem quite potent.

FurryMiguell
31-10-2008, 14:27
RBT's... its all in how you use them, and how you use your army. Most players have vastly difrent armies and tactics, meaning some might find the RBT an asset to their plan, some not. I personally find it an asset, as it completes my army and general tactic, this might just as well not be true for you. Its a hard question to answer, cause it all comes down to you as a player. I do agree with Von Wibble that the RBT is (maybe not the worst) a horrible warmachine for the price compared to other warmachines. But I still find I need it to complete my army.

Gazak Blacktoof
31-10-2008, 15:45
I think that you can stick almost anything in a high elf army and have a good game. Archers are weak but other than that everything else is priced appropriately.

As for bolt throwers I'd always take some. My brother always uses one or two with his elves, though he's got the option for 3 now. They're useful for removing chariots, monsters and fast cavalry that your other units might struggle with. If you're going to try for a refused flank strategy using march blockers then winning the skirmish phase is key to delaying your opponent and there are few things better at this than repeater bolt throwers.

Khaardun
31-10-2008, 17:20
1. Do I need RBT's to be effective?

I have two friends who play Elves as well but they play Dark and High elves (I play wood normally). They swear by their repeater bolt throwers. My Dark Elf friend uses his to keep up with current armies and my High Elf friend uses his well every game. But against me, they don't last long at all and I wonder about who they play but of course my army isn't like others.

So basically, should I always use two RBT's? In a way I want to differentiate myself and use more archers or even shadow warriors with a great eagle to march block. I would love opinions on bolt throwers in general and on how much you like your bolt throwers since I've never played with war machines.

That is entirely up to you, the beauty with High Elves is that you get 4 rare slots compared to 2 with a 2000 point list. I have 2 RBT in my army alongside 2 great eagles for flanking enemy units.


2. What special units do you recommend and what size?

I know I want a white lion chariot since I love the model and how useful they appear. I'm planning Phoenix Guard, White Lions and Dragon Princes atm. How many should I run the infantry elite? I'm thinking groups of 15.

I usually take up 10 for starters to see how they do, then if I need, bolster the unit up to 15. 20 is just overkill (and a waste of points that be better spent elsewhere).


Modeling:

1. Silver Helms as Dragon Princes?

Dragon princes are expensive so I was thinking of converting Silver helms. Any ideas on how to make this look better or will a paint job and "count as" be enough for most people? Someone had mentioned something about a High Elf cav box with options for all the types but I'm not sure how credible it is, but if true it makes it a lot easier especially since.....

Like somebody else said, unless your an exceptionally good modeler then by all means do so.


2. Running High Elves as Brettonnians?

Wait, hear me out! I'm a tight wad when it comes to money and I like to get the most out of what I buy. Currently I'm painting and doing a little converting my Eldar into Dark Eldar so I can run them as both (in friendly games btw). Elves are elite right? So why can't they run Bret lance formations! High Elves can get Pegasai too right?! I think there is potential for Narration and as a way of getting more out of the army. Any cool ideas for conversion or ideas on it?

If its a friendly game and your friends allow it, then all power to you, though I will say High Elves cannot use Pegasus in their armies.


Painting.

1. What colors do I paint my High Elves!?

Seriously, I need more help High Elves are blue/gold usually. But I don't want that! I don't want green since I got ork and wood elves, I have enough green! I also have an idea for scab Red (or a dark red)/bleach bone (with varying color options on the aspect warriors) with my Eldar. I was thinking of doing Red/Mithral silver. Not sure how it will turn out though. Anyone have any ideas? What cool color combinations can you think of?

Experiment with your colour scheme, get a test model and see how it works out for yourself. This question is something you need to ask yourself.