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Frankly
29-10-2008, 01:28
What do people think makes a gunline? ..... besides guns.

How much of a shooting phase does it take before it stops being a 'supporting' phase and starts to become a gunline phase?

Are there armybooks that should be allow a certain amount more shooting than others, because of army design and/or fluff?

Most importantly: Tactically, how do you and your list deal with gunlines?

Feel free the comment on any or all of the questions?:)

Grand Warlord
29-10-2008, 01:44
I would consider a gunline that is heavily favored towards range. If you want to go from a fluff perspective then sure some armys are more justified than others. But from a rules perspective it's legal. But I don't think I could stand to play them more than once or twice.

Thomus Darkblade
29-10-2008, 01:52
Guns make a gunline.

BOO-YA-SHAK-A!

Constructive.

Gunlines are like pornography. You can't really define it, but you know it when you see it.

That said, it's very hard to define what makes a gunline, as the most powerful lists with a lot of guns will also have a very substantial combat contingent to finish the job. WHFB isn't really a game that can be won by shooting. 6th edition skaven and 7th ed tzeench demons aside.

The way of dealing with a standard imperial, elven or dwarven gunline it to charge it, and quicky, with many fast units. So that at least a few of them arrive intact to finish the job.

Skaven gunlines are easily outshot by balanced lists these days.

Shutting down your opponents magic phase will help immensely with dealing with thier shooting.

Screen your expensive units with cheaper ones, provide more targets than they can handle, and don't give your opponent time to think.

Is there a certain build that you're having trouble with? and what army do you play?

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 01:56
I set the boundry at 70% pts of an army spent on shooty things top. I think thats a good rule to live by (that is still a lot of shooting!)

To counter, flyers, fast cavy, magic (maybe something that stops all shooting for one round?)

A flyer behind a gunline can be devestating!

I would not enjoy playing against almost purely shooty army. Just cause it is no fun rolling only dice all the time (even more boring to watch a guy do it!)

Fluffwize, I cannot think of any race that can justify a gunline. Even empire, as the fluff clearly states the halberdiers are the standard soldiers of the army and should be fielded in numbers, not handgunners. As for dwarfs, for some reason I dont find any joy playing against them at all:p (reason must be that I only ever fight dwarfs played by the same person, and he kinda pisses me off:)

Cheers:D

Kahadras
29-10-2008, 02:44
I define a gunline as an army in which there is a minimum emphasis put on combat ability and manuever while the majority of the points are pushed into shooting units and war machines. Basicaly at theend of the day it cpomes down to the individual but if your opponant rushes past the movement phase and gets nervous when you declare a charge then I'd say that those are good indications.

TBH though some armies get more leeway than others. I'd expect Dwarfs and Wood Elves to bring quite a lot of shooting to the table. Dwarfs need the firepower (within reason of course) to force people to attack them while non forest spirit Wood Elves are a naturaly shooty.

Kahadras

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 03:30
Agree with kahadras. Woodelves with their poor armorsave needs the range advantage, and to be honest I would be disapointed if a WE player didnt bring some archers to the fight (and somewhat suprised:p)

Cheers:D

SuperArchMegalon
29-10-2008, 05:18
BOO-YA-SHAK-A!

I think your post count is already quite high enough, thank you.

I play Dwarfs, and I always adhere to the formula B= (P/1000)+1, where B= the amount of infantry blocks and P= points. So, for a 1000 point game you have 2 blocks, 2000 you have 3 etc. I try actually to use more every game but any less and it's probably a gunline.

SuperArchMegalon
29-10-2008, 05:35
Well, that's the only time I ever put it down as a formula. Basically I start at two and work up from there.

Fraggzy
29-10-2008, 10:20
if you aim towards just shooting (as furry says round 70% and up) and minimise close combat, or dont have it at all.

A good way to counter gunlines are; items that neglect shooting, items like -1 to hit with shooting, fast calvary, flyers, units that can digg and magic.

But a normal and balanced list will probably dont do to well against gunnlines as it will have a bit of all and thereby scattering its strenght so the gunnline can pick the fast targets that are a threat first then shoot the slower infantry units.

and orks2134 there is no reason to spam

Griefbringer
29-10-2008, 11:10
Boo ya ... Alebdra for to make an army? Dull that.

It is called algebra.

Mind it, you will need a certain amount of it in constructing any army, due to limitations on such issues as total points, maigc items per character etc.

Ward.
29-10-2008, 11:18
If the only thing your army can do to win a game is shoot, it's a gunline.

Edonil
29-10-2008, 15:21
If you can beat an infantry army without moving, close combat, or panicking them, odds are safe you've got too many guns (seen this happen. Once, but seen it happen.)

FigureFour
29-10-2008, 15:32
Agree with kahadras. Woodelves with their poor armorsave needs the range advantage, and to be honest I would be disapointed if a WE player didnt bring some archers to the fight (and somewhat suprised:p)

Cheers:D

You haven't seen many Wood Elf armies then.

Lots of us (not me though, I like my archers) use Dryads and maybe some fast cav for core, wild riders and wardancers for specials and a treeman or two for rare choices.

It's a fast agressive assault list, with minimal shooting (often just the bows that heroes get).

Sadly, Wood Elf shooting isn't quite as good as the fluff says it is. Imagine High Elf shooting but slightly better at close range and no RBTs or magic spam.

Kahadras
29-10-2008, 16:28
You haven't seen many Wood Elf armies then.

Lots of us (not me though, I like my archers) use Dryads and maybe some fast cav for core, wild riders and wardancers for specials and a treeman or two for rare choices.

It's a fast agressive assault list, with minimal shooting (often just the bows that heroes get).

Sadly, Wood Elf shooting isn't quite as good as the Fluff says it is. Imagine High Elf shooting but slightly better at close range and no RBTs or magic spam.

Which is why I said a Wood Elf army sans Forest spirits. Fortunatly Wood elf shooting is pretty good on paper at least. They can move and fire without penalty and their primary missile unit (Glade Guard) have a strength boost at under half range.

On top of this they have fast cavalry as a core choice that also come equipt with longbows, skirmishing scouts and Waywatchers. A Wood Elf centered army can put out quite a hail of accurate bowfire. A Noble with Hail of Doom Arrow, three units of Glade Guard, a unit of scouts, a couple of units of Glade Riders and two units of Waywatchers can put out a fair amount of firepower and is very maneuverable to boot.

Kahadras

FigureFour
29-10-2008, 17:57
Which is why I said a Wood Elf army sans Forest spirits.
True. But not many people play that way since you either need to line the board with Glade Guard or play keep away with fast cav and warhawks to win. Neither of which are very fun.


Fortunatly Wood elf shooting is pretty good on paper at least. They can move and fire without penalty and their primary missile unit (Glade Guard) have a strength boost at under half range.
I know. Like I said, I play Wood Elves and use Glade Guard. They're probably the best archers in the game.


On top of this they have fast cavalry as a core choice that also come equipt with longbows, skirmishing scouts and Waywatchers. A Wood Elf centered army can put out quite a hail of accurate bowfire. A Noble with Hail of Doom Arrow, three units of Glade Guard, a unit of scouts, a couple of units of Glade Riders and two units of Waywatchers can put out a fair amount of firepower and is very maneuverable to boot.
Like you said, it looks good on paper, but when you start seeing things with 3+ saves or better, or a toughness higher than 4, you start to get in trouble. Waywatchers help, but only if you get lucky with Killing Blow.

War machines are usually what makes gunlines work and Wood Elves don't have any.

Frankly
29-10-2008, 19:28
I think a gunline is an armylist that is made in a fashion so that it wins purely through the shooting phase and is supported in the other phases.

Where as a ranged attack heavy list uses a very strong shooting phase and then wins through driving home the advantages of unit strength and ranks in the combat phase to win matches.

I think I've played against 1 'pure'(of what I think a gunline is) gunline in the last 6 months of pretty solid play including tournaments.

Kahadras
29-10-2008, 22:25
War machines are usually what makes gunlines work and Wood Elves don't have any.


Of course. Wood Elves don't work as a gunline. But they can have a large amount of shooting and I don't find that particularly offencive when I come to play against them. The point is that when it comes to shooting Wood Elves are pretty solid.

Kahadras

Conotor
30-10-2008, 00:08
I would feel ashamed of myself if I ever spent over 25% of my points on shooting.

FurryMiguell
30-10-2008, 00:20
In my DE army, I do a standard mix of 33% shooty, 33% CC and 33% magic, characters and gun creatures. It works perfect. I used the very same mix for my skaven, and im planing to do the same with O&G. I always end up with a good and balanced army that can make a game enjoyable for both parts.

theunwantedbeing
30-10-2008, 00:27
A gunline....the clue is in the title.
Gun
Line

A line of guns.

Add to that most guns tend to be move-or-fire weapons and the line tends to be incredibly static.
So a gunline is almost always a line of guns that doesnt move at all.

If you have that, then you have a gunline.

An elven gunline is a tad different as it is equipt with move-and-fire weapons in general so will usually be more mobile to offset its lack of killing power (as a bow isnt half as good at killing things as a crossbow or handgun).

Dwarves and Empire are the worst offenders.
Dwarves hide behind their low movement(6" in open ground as they can always march)
So they don't really have any excuse.
Empire hide behind their crappy stats (fair excuse as almost anything that isnt a gunline is generally a 1+ save knight hoarde) but still not the best excuse ever.

Beating a gunline....depends on the gunline.
Empire gunline, a terror causer landing in the middle of them tends to send a lot of things running.
Dwarf gunline....hard tough troops that are fast, and prefferably cause fear.

You usually need to flank them and roll down the flank.
Against a competant opponent this is much trickier as they'll have taken steps to ensure you dont get to do that.

Failing that, knights and lots of knights.
Go first, turn 1 your now 10" from his lines and he needs to blow your entire army away in a single volley to win.
It requires the same sort of level of tactics as a gunline does.

My DE army tends to have a fairly high portion of points spent on troops that can shoot, as the only things that cant shoot are my knights and spearmen (about 700pts of the army)

Edonil
30-10-2008, 00:41
I managed to beat a dwarven siege line with my Chaos (using the new Warriors list) by swarming them with fast cavalry. I got first turn, turn two about half the siege weapons were engaged, turn three, hit his infantry, at the end of four, he had four siege weapons left. So...it is possible to beat a gunline. It just really isn't easy. (odd that he was complaining about me taking the Blasted Standard on a unit of Tzeentch knights...he almost seemed to think it was unfair for me to make my best chance to really hurt a heavy ranged list really well defended against shooting :eyebrows:) However, I still hate gunlines. This was a rarity, first time in the year and a half I've played fantasy that any of my armies have beat a gunline.

SuperArchMegalon
30-10-2008, 10:45
Now, imagine if he had gotten first turn. A major problem with gunlines is that basically first turn wins. As you saw he only got one opportunity to shoot before you hit him - now imagine if he was able to kill twice as much. Maybe you still would've won, but in most cases it's deadly.

Frankly
30-10-2008, 11:37
In my DE army, I do a standard mix of 33% shooty, 33% CC and 33% magic, characters and gun creatures. It works perfect. I used the very same mix for my skaven, and im planing to do the same with O&G. I always end up with a good and balanced army that can make a game enjoyable for both parts.

Sounds nice.

Edonil
30-10-2008, 13:11
Now, imagine if he had gotten first turn. A major problem with gunlines is that basically first turn wins. As you saw he only got one opportunity to shoot before you hit him - now imagine if he was able to kill twice as much. Maybe you still would've won, but in most cases it's deadly.

Yep. Which is why I hate true gunlines. Ah well...I still have that medal to pin to the chest of my Chaos Lord...something none of my other generals have earned.

FigureFour
30-10-2008, 15:33
Of course. Wood Elves don't work as a gunline. But they can have a large amount of shooting and I don't find that particularly offencive when I come to play against them. The point is that when it comes to shooting Wood Elves are pretty solid.

Kahadras

Well, I suppose I can agree to that.

My point was just that even if Wood Elves bring a lot of shooting to the table, it's still not really a gunline. Although 60+ Glade Guard can come close.