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Einholt
01-11-2008, 23:36
I am curious, how many people would accept pick up games in store or at clubs where you're opponent requests to be allowed his Previous Edition book.

Feel free to post why you feel the way you do, but please no flame wars.

Jolon
02-11-2008, 00:06
I'd allow it- someone put alot of effort into their models based on a vision for them, and its natural to not want that to change.

Maybe they want undivided chaos, or the centrepiece of their wood elf army was its chariots. I'd ask he stick to 7th edition core/special/etc requirements, and the game function under 7th edition rules, but I see no reason not to be flexible about army books, even if I thought the opponent was just trying to get an advantage.

If you dont want your army book to change, and it does, that shouldent kill the hobby for you.

Thommy H
02-11-2008, 00:07
Nope.

Because it's never done for a good reason, is it? It's always because the guy thinks the new book nerfs his army and doesn't want to lose. Sorry, if we're going to base how you can pick your army on personal opinion like that, you might as well use lists you've made yourself. When we sit down to play Warhammer, we implicitly accept that GW is defining what the rules are.

Now, if we want to play a game that makes changes and tinkers with the lists, that's fine. I'm no prude. But why specifically use an old army book in that case? If you don't like the current one, then adapt it with your opponent if he agrees that it's flawed. Don't just use older (and, implicitly, stronger) rules to get an advantage.

Valtiel
02-11-2008, 00:18
I'd agree with it because I have been thinking of going back using the HoC book a couple of times so that I could get to use those Beastmen models and Daemon models that are no longer valid in the new WoC list. But with the few games I will get to play these days I doubt I'll get to try it again.

mrtn
02-11-2008, 00:18
Beastmen with furies and chaos knights wasn't a cheesefest, why not still allow it?

Edit: crosspost with Valtiel, on the same subject...

Lord of Skulls
02-11-2008, 00:21
I would ask to see the list, and then decide:

If it appears to be done to increase the chances of winning, in any way, I would say no way.

If it appears to be done for other reasons, I might accept it in a one-off friendly game...

Leogun_91
02-11-2008, 00:42
Not really but if discussed before and I get to know why (maybe he had heard how said army was so fun to play with the previous rules and wants to test just once or some other good reason) but without an explanation for it I would say no.....but at least itīs better than meating someone who wants to play with fishmen,fimnir,chaosdwarfs,gorrilamen or whatever they have thought would be fun to use and made their own list for.

Tokamak
02-11-2008, 00:51
I'd agree with it because I have been thinking of going back using the HoC book a couple of times so that I could get to use those Beastmen models and Daemon models that are no longer valid in the new WoC list. But with the few games I will get to play these days I doubt I'll get to try it again.

That would be the best reason actually. If someone wants to use his daemons with his mortals, then I won't stop him using the old book. Actually, I'd rather see that then an attempt to use both the Daemon and the WOC books combined.

Talonz
02-11-2008, 01:03
Absolutely yes. But for skaven and WE perhaps, the 6th ed set of armybooks were excellent. I despise the up and up direction 7th ed has taken lately.

havoc626
02-11-2008, 01:29
I wouldn't mind it in the least, cause in the end, it is just a game and the one being played is ment to be a friendly one.

Einholt
02-11-2008, 03:53
Thommy H, I'll respond to ya cuz that was the perspective I took from the other side when I decided to make the poll.

The honest truth is, I cannot tweak a list for pick up games and modify it. I thought it would be fair to just use the old edition of the book because I already have it in print and really Before this edition I did not find the book overpowered. To me anyway it would seem more like I am trying to gain advantages by cutting and pasting my own book them simply using the old rules.

The HoC is in fact the book I am talking about and the reasons are my wish to use daemons and beasts models I own as well as present the Army composition that was seen as balanced until the redo of the chaos books.

I can see how requesting to tweak the new mortal book to have things I liked from the old and the obvious point benefits as well as stat buffs of core troops from the new one would be very power gamey.

Honestly It is just because I liked how my models are painted and how the army was composed, I do not like how the new one turned out despite the increase in power combinations (so the reverse is actually true on the nerf of overall army power, although I do feel that my style of play for the army has been nerfed in addition to the butchery of the theme) I got into chaos due to the stories and how the book "felt" I can honestly say if I were to be making the decision now I faced when I began the hobby I would pick Greenskins over Chaos. Unfortunately I cannot go back in time. And just to illustrate I am not talking about using a Tzeentch Dragon lord with the Eye.

I am curious now that I have given you more of a back story does that influence or change your opinion or are you still adamant I should keep the new book.

ALSO Just for anyone voting. The intent is in fact to play under the current ruleset, simply with an army book that had already been functional in 7th. But is not the current incarnation of said army.

Ward.
02-11-2008, 04:05
Of course I'd let them do it, I might face palm if it was just so they could use their 8 model lord of powerdice army or something but i wouldn't mind.

All the books are compatible with 7th edition and hopefully by the end of it we'll have 32 different armies to play with and against. With the exception of orcs/ maybe WOC none of the latest books have been weaker then their 6th edition versions so how can anyone see it as a bad thing?

BigRob
02-11-2008, 08:13
Yes and no.

If we were doing a refight of say, Storm of Chaos then we'd use the Storm of Chaos lists, referenced to the new army books where appropriate.

If we were having a nostalgic game of 3rd edition then obviously we'd be using warhammer armies.

If we wanted to cover the table in bits of card, we'd play 5th edition and use the 5th edition army books.

If were playing down at GW and someone says to me, hey can I use my old armybook coz the new one is teh suxzzz nurfz and I want to continue using the army I made that took advantage of all the loopholes and power combos in the old book, then no, new rules come out for a reason.

Desert Rain
02-11-2008, 08:46
I would only agree with it if both players decided to use the old army lists

C-Coen
02-11-2008, 09:04
I would allow the use of 6th ed. Armybooks.
Why? At first, mostly because of that Warriors/Daemons of Chaos 'divorce'. If I were to make a Chaos army, I would like it to have both too.
Second: power creep, anyone? Aren't armies getting better and better? Granted, some older armybooks might have some stronger stuff, but overall, I think most 'old' things were better balanced.

Thommy H
02-11-2008, 09:20
I am curious now that I have given you more of a back story does that influence or change your opinion or are you still adamant I should keep the new book.


Nope. Use the new book. That's what it's for. I'm sorry you think your army got wrecked (I'm a Warriors player myself, as it happens) but when you play pick up games you have to have a certain standard of rules - and those are the ones that are most recently published for most people. If I was playing a game with a stranger in a GW store or a gaming club and they started setting up a mixed Chaos army or pulling out models that haven't had rules for years and told me he was using old rules then I'd have to tell him that this isn't how pick up games work - if we were friends and he wanted to discuss it, then sure. Play what you want if your opponent agrees - we all modify things slightly when we play in our own homes (hence the term "house rules").

But you're not asking us whether you can do something with your friend, are you? You're asking us if it's okay for you to just spring the old HoC rules on a stranger because you liked them better for whatever reason. And it's not. One of my other armies is Chaos Dwarfs and you'd better believe that I always get my opponent's permission before I use their ancient rules, even though they're not unbalanced, they work fine and I can't use my army without them. It's because it's polite.

So ask. If your opponent agrees then whatever, I guess. But don't expect them to agree because most will have the same reaction as me. And no internet poll is going to validate your choice either.

BigbyWolf
02-11-2008, 12:52
At my club we allow people to use the extra lists at the back of the old books (eg the single clan Skaven armies etc). It does make for fun themed games, and I always enjoy being able to field 2 Wyverns and 4 units of trolls im my greenskin army from time to time (Troll Country Waaagh!!). We don't allow people to field armies made from the actual lists in the old books, with the exception of a couple of younger players who have mixed Chaos armies, as they don't have enough models of the three separate affiliations to make separate 2000 point armies.

phoenixlaw
02-11-2008, 14:29
Not really but if discussed before and I get to know why (maybe he had heard how said army was so fun to play with the previous rules and wants to test just once or some other good reason) but without an explanation for it I would say no.....but at least itīs better than meating someone who wants to play with fishmen,fimnir,chaosdwarfs,gorrilamen or whatever they have thought would be fun to use and made their own list for.

except chaos dwarfs still have a valid list....

vinush
02-11-2008, 14:35
I voted yes, for two reasons.

1. My friend and somewhat semi-regular oponent had a briliantly balanced list of Chaos which combined mortals and daemons. He put hours and hours into converting pieces for the army, and it is now no longer viable to use. He is left with no useable army under current lists, so I see no reason why he can't use that old book to use his army. Plus I actually stood a chance of beating him with that army list...

2. Another friend of mine used to take a Necromance VC army, not using the list in the back of the old book, but using standard costs for everything. It was thematically based on the Cult of Nagash, and it was a brilliantly well balanced list to play against. With the current VC army book, in all its power creeping glory, doesn't allow this sort of build any more, which ruins the composition of his army. Whilst I'm on the subject of VC's, I don't like the new book for my army either, as the Vampires are all just bland. For the army to succeed you really don't have much of a choice of which powers you take. So I prefer to use the last edition rules for my VC army too.

\/ince

Thommy H
02-11-2008, 14:50
Agreeing something with your regular opponent isn't the issue though, is it? The OP is surely asking this because he doesn't want to adapt his own army and would like to use the old Army Book all the time. He wants to just not bother trying to make it fit the new rules and would like us to validate this position.

Well, sorry - the flaws in the WoC are just your opinion, Einholt, and I don't think it's fair to walk into a pick up game with an army using outdated rules because you think x is overpriced or whatever. If you really want to get around it, I suggest making two lists (one with the new book) and then asking your opponent before a game if he wouldn't mind awfully letting you use the older list because you don't like the new one.

I'd just laugh and tell you to suck it up though.

Harwammer
02-11-2008, 15:18
I'd be happy to let someone use an old book (especially if they wanted to use one of the now defunct 'alternative lists' from the back of the book).

Ultimately, the books were all designed with a very similar rule set in mind, and frankly to a large degree 6th/7th stuff is cross compatiable.

scarletsquig
02-11-2008, 15:43
I would happily play any of the 6th edition lists, as long as they didn't take the p with something like a core chosen chaos knight army with screamers and all-wizards.

Sir_Turalyon
02-11-2008, 15:49
As long as it's 6th edition ruleset and friendly game, why not? Personally I believe Ravening hordes High Elf list was better (and more fluffy ) list for that race then two armybooks that followed, and that Bretonnian list from Annual /WD was better then current armybook. Notice that both these lists are probably weaker then current armybooks, and surely lighter on magic items and special rules.

Einholt
02-11-2008, 16:18
Hey, I already PM'd Thommy so this is just that new comers get the right idea.

The question isn't supposed to be would you allow the use of the old book if someone simply walked into a game with the old list. It was more like, if asked for permission would you say yes.

The thread was started about the new WoC and HoC books, and I do in fact have army lists composed from their respective books that I have played, I simply liked the way the old one plays. So I would be capable of fielding either, and would ask my opponent permission to play the old one, but we can treat the question more as a which would you like to play against today, rather then "SURPRISE! I'm playing old book how do you like me now!?"


I play khorne, the advantage of my 6th ed. list is 6 Dispel dice no caddy and no scrolls. Vs the new list with a caddy 2 scrolls and 3 Dispell Dice.

Otherwise I really just want to use the old items, and my daemons/beasts special units. I abide by the less impressive warriors and knights with higher cost marauders and knights, and such, basically use either book as they are printed.

Lordsaradain
02-11-2008, 20:57
I would accept it but I wouldn't advise it.

stiltjet
02-11-2008, 22:05
I would happily play any of the books from 6th edition, I think most of them are great pieces of work..

I actually think that many of those books seem better thought out, balanced and designed, than the newer ones.

Not really sure I like the way GW seems to be heading with their army book design of late..

Just my opinion though..

(Do you guys enjoy the army books of 7ed more than the 6ed versions?)

wingedserpant
02-11-2008, 22:54
Nope. Use the new book. That's what it's for. I'm sorry you think your army got wrecked (I'm a Warriors player myself, as it happens) but when you play pick up games you have to have a certain standard of rules - and those are the ones that are most recently published for most people. If I was playing a game with a stranger in a GW store or a gaming club and they started setting up a mixed Chaos army or pulling out models that haven't had rules for years and told me he was using old rules then I'd have to tell him that this isn't how pick up games work - if we were friends and he wanted to discuss it, then sure. Play what you want if your opponent agrees - we all modify things slightly when we play in our own homes (hence the term "house rules").

But you're not asking us whether you can do something with your friend, are you? You're asking us if it's okay for you to just spring the old HoC rules on a stranger because you liked them better for whatever reason. And it's not. One of my other armies is Chaos Dwarfs and you'd better believe that I always get my opponent's permission before I use their ancient rules, even though they're not unbalanced, they work fine and I can't use my army without them. It's because it's polite.

So ask. If your opponent agrees then whatever, I guess. But don't expect them to agree because most will have the same reaction as me. And no internet poll is going to validate your choice either.

Its amazing how many threads can be solved 'ask your opponent.'

Thats no fun though is it?

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-11-2008, 08:23
Depends on who it as and why they are asking I'd say.
Most likely I would be fine with it. If they then abuse it and it makes for a horrible game I just won't in the future, simple as that. However, I don't think I'd do it myself. I would feel quite cheeky asking people "I know these are the rules, but do you mind if I use something else?" and it would just be too much hassle. I also think that while it will work with veteran games who would know the old rules it's not something you should do with newer people who would never have seen the old rules.

The Clairvoyant
03-11-2008, 09:33
I can see why a lot of people wouldn't let a chaos player use the old rules. I wonder if those same players would have a problem with a vampire player using the 6th ed book...

madden
03-11-2008, 09:54
I voted no as the new book is the official one the only lists i'd allow is if a new list was download only (blood angles now maybe some variants lizard spawning armies etc) and my opponant doesn't have access to the net, but as said ask a friend but for a pick up not a chance.

TheLionReturns
03-11-2008, 11:09
I can't say I'd have a problem. I'd be happy to try playing against an outdated book and if I enjoyed it would happily play the same opponent again. If I was confronted by a list dripping cheese and an obnoxious opponent obviously I would be less inclined to play again. It really more about the attitude of the opponent than what list they use.

Sure there may be some people looking to get an advantage from such a move but I don't think it is a healthy attitude to assume the worst from all opponents. I mean you'd hardly ever have a game that way surely.

skank
03-11-2008, 11:26
With the exception of 'storm of chaos' (god i'm glad that garbage has gone) yeah, sure.

N810
03-11-2008, 20:26
I'll take any oponent I can get :P
(battles are few and far between)

Kalec
03-11-2008, 23:24
Pick up game? No, the new books exist for a reason. If you want to use an old book then you need to ask first.

PANZERBUNNY
04-11-2008, 02:10
Its a pick up game. who cares.

go for it. dont go for it.

ZOMGZ he's using an old book for his army list in my hobby shop gaming session. YOU cant do thattttt!!! *cry*

Play the game. Its not the GT.

Considering most new books are released to sell NEW models I dont see how the older books would/should become pariah to the gaming community.
SURE there are some loopholes, but nothing so drastic because every book thats released has new loopholes of their own.


Chillz outz peoplz.

Einholt
04-11-2008, 04:49
Lol it is amazing, once again to reiterate. The Question is would you say yes IF ASKED in a pick up game.

Fraggzy
04-11-2008, 07:28
i dont see a problem with is as long as that as long as that armylist aint really uinbalanced or unfair against my armylist (rules that gives it advantages over my army)

Truculent
04-11-2008, 10:07
I would allow it if people had a good reason. If it was due to a significant portion of their models suddenly being made redundant, that is. In the case of WoC, my friends allow me to use DoC/BoC Core units as Special choices, and DoC/BoC Special units as Rare choices, with DoC/BoC Rare choices and characters disallowed. This seems to work well enough, and I haven't had any cries of cheese yet. They certainly prefer it over me using old books or a 'counts as'-system, anyway.

Mullitron
04-11-2008, 10:21
Depends on the situation, if its an old chaos player who want to mix their daemons and beastmen together it wouldnt bother me. However if its someones who using an old book because a particular tactic they used to play isnt as strong in the latest edition i would be a little irritated. Its just a game to me and winning can be fun but editing the rules slightly just to improve your chances to win isnt fun.

Killgore
04-11-2008, 13:33
YES

in a non competitive environment where games are played for 'fun' I'd allow people to use old army books, made up rules, special characters/ scenarios.... as long as both players have a good time (which i do believe is rule number 1).

Ethlorien
04-11-2008, 14:44
I wouldn't have a problem with it between friends. Might be fun to see the same army, different editions, battling it out even.

But as far as in store and in clubs, no. They should be up to date and using the current rules.

That said, I did vote yes based on the question before I had read the first post. My bad.

marv335
04-11-2008, 15:32
No.
Pick up games?
Not a chance.

Pre-arranged games between friends, fine.
In a store without notice?
forget it. Current rules only.

loveless
04-11-2008, 16:41
Well, I haven't played a "pick-up" game with someone that I didn't already know in a long time - such seems to be the nature of gaming clubs around here.

I don't see a huge problem with it. I'd rather play against an old book than someone trying to make up rules for things that got scrapped or altered.

That being said, if someone's running a Warrior/Marauder heavy army or a Daemon heavy army, I'd rather them use WoC/DoC than HoC. For instance, if you're all Warriors/Marauders with 1 or 2 units of Furies, I'd rather you just learn to play without the furies - there isn't enough of a change in your list to warrant you not getting the new book.

I also probably wouldn't play a "new" player trying this. If you've played Beasts/Daemons/Warriors together for years, fine. If you've just started and decided you wanted to use the old book(s) to mix and match the 3 branches of chaos - no. I won't condone the "learning" of an old army.

theHandofGork
05-11-2008, 16:56
I'll pretty much let an opponent do anything once- but I play at a pretty mellow FLGS. Obviously in a more competitive environment (like a RTT, for example) this wouldn't fly.

Harwammer
05-11-2008, 18:05
Out of interest, would people's opinions on this change if GW was to go under, thereby meaning there would no longer be such things as 'official books'?

Zoolander
05-11-2008, 18:45
I'd allow it - 99% of the time, they are only gimping themselves, as newer books tend to have the power curve going for them. What I would NOT allow is something someone tried with me recently - combining old and new to get the most favorable result.