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View Full Version : Just got the new WoC book, Huge dissapointment



000000000000000
02-11-2008, 01:33
i read alot of negative things about this new book, but i took it all in stride and was still very excited, i have a huge chaos army, over 10k points.

but that is irrelevant. the way i play is a wall of chaos knights and marauder horsemen, i love the calvary theme chaos army with no infantry.

over all the book is very poor, characters have been made very points innefective as far as melee gos, chaos lords and exalted heros are now un-usabley expensive where as chaos sorcerers are now WAY WAY WAY
to powerful for thier cheap cost.

gifts of chaos are pathetic.

the only things worth using from the character department are sorcerers and daemon princes.

my cavalry army has been raped, chaos knights are no longer core.

no more screamers of tzeench and furies both of which are nessesary, chaos have long been at the mercy of artillery, now with no more flyers
cheap artillery ( i have an empire army and think artillery is the most over powered undercosted game breaking unit, either it is over powered or explodes on turn one but hey its only 100 points) is free to kill your retardedly expensive troops in droves

chaos warriors are still terrible, they got better but base cost 16 points for a big slow moving block of victory points that is march blocked if ever fielded and gets blasted to pieces and if you are lucky see combat on turn 5 but can still at any point be charged in the flank by 2 point goblin pieces of **** and auto killed.

oh look your 80 point stone thrower killed 8 chaos warriors with 1 shot, this game is well balanced!

marauders are good if you field them with only a hand weapon, anyone who gives thier marauders equipment is retarded, 80 points for 20 infantry is vastly superior to 120 points for 20 infantry that sometimes get a 4+ save but usually dont get a save what so ever.

Everyone knows infantry suck all around.

marks are retarded, 1 flat point cost across the board is RETARDED!!!!!!

chaos warshrine pays 30 points for 1 extra strength 4 attack but only pays 20 points for a 3+ WARD save wow they must have thought this list through for a VERY long time, why would anyone ever use anything except frenzied warshrines of khorne?!?! IT HAS AN EXTRA ATTACK NOTHING CAN STOP THAT.

collar of khorne is terrible unless you have the mark of tzeench, wtf? oh yeah thats right NO MARK RESTRICTIONS!!

HERE COMES MY CHAOS LORD OF TZEENCH WITH AXE OF KHORNE AND PENDANT OF SLAANESH AND HES RIDING A GREAT UNCLEAN ONE LOL JUST KIDDING CANT USE DEMONS ANY MORE BECAUSE THATS NOT HOW CHAOS ROLLS.

in summation this army is a HUGE stinking pile of ****, i am going to try an salvage my calvary force. problem being first i need to take my extra chaos knights out back and smash them because i cant use that many any more and 2nd i am going to have to buy a ton of marauder horsemen because they are the only thing mounted for core excluding chaos warriors because they are mounted in a different way if you know what i mean (what i mean is they are mounted by GW and take it up the butt)

Rip456
02-11-2008, 01:39
I totally agree man, and dont forget Khorne has to bring sorceres now if he wants to have dispel dice good luck getting an all cav army to work

Arhalien
02-11-2008, 01:47
Few things:

1. There are already a number of threads discussing this in a rational, balanced manner which should be easily visible in fantasy general (or tactics; not sure where it was)

2. This is just a game of toy soldiers, and Games Workshop is not deliberately trying to annoy you; things change between editions, and this is something that just has to be adapted to. With 10k points of Chaos are you seriously saying that you don't have enough marauder horsemen to fill your core in 2kpts, which will be played far more frequently than 10k; the fact that you say you use a wall of marauder horsemen and knights fits quite nicely with the fact that you later say you need to buy more marauder horsemen to make your army work...

Basically, what I;m saying is that there are ways to adapt to change, and to deal with the new challenges that are brought up by the changes; that is what the other threads are trying to deal with. So maybe, rather than starting a thread on a forum ranting about how your army sucks and GW are stupid, you could try and think things through rationally, give the new book a try, and try something new; who knows, you may like it.

Bashem
02-11-2008, 01:49
Doesn't sound very promising, But I will however still buy the book and army set.

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2008, 02:26
I tried replying but I'm lazy and can't really be bothered explaining why you are wrong on prettymuch everything you've said.

I guess I can try.
Marauder horsemen are core, your cavalry army isnt raped at all
Chaos characters still rock
Not all the gifts suck
Furies and screamers werent nessecary
Chaos warriors are pretty decent now
8 warriors eh? It's only unbalanced if those warriors are likely to lose in combat vs that stone thrower
Naked Maruaders are rubbish, cheap but rubbish
Everyone is wrong
Marks could have done with a varied cost
You are not paying 20pts for a 3+ ward save
Wait so only mages get the magic resistance?
I'll ignore your other comments, I hope you edit them out

Talonz
02-11-2008, 03:17
*laughs*

I'd be happy to take that chaos army off your hands.

him_15
02-11-2008, 03:18
The new book is just fine, when you play against anyone within numbers of gun, you should probably focus on fast moving unit instead of bringing many on-foot warrior and complaining they get killed so easily by ranged weapon, as this is the nature of the game!
While horseman are core, along with chaos knight, chariot, ogre, warhound, dragon ogre, you can get into combat by turn 2, especially if you roll good to go first.

Havock
02-11-2008, 03:43
Against gunlines, thou shalt do the following:
-include the pirate-dude with his ship and a rapload of marauders.
-include tzeentch knights with the blasted standard.

As a matter of fact, incldue lots of knights: how many 1+ save dudes CAN you destroy in a single shooting phase?
(quite a lot, yes)

Possibly a Tzeentch diabolic-splendour terrorbomb and you are set.
Gunlines equals little to no CC ability whatsoever.

@ TS: Go play with the Get-You-By list for a while, you'll appreciate the new book. A lotb
If there ever was a ****** list...
Who was the creator of that waste of paper and bandwith anyway? I believe a mandatory IQ test is in order there :rolleyes:

Arguleon-veq
02-11-2008, 03:47
I am not impressed either but for complete opposite reason to you.

I always persisted with Chaos Warriors. I just cant anymore with the new book, it has made an all Cav force far more viable and my one footslogging horde with decent magic support is now all mounted with no magical support. I will just try to kill enemy mages early.

I dont think Sorcerers are great at all in the new book, I dont think we get anywhere near enough magic defense in terms of dispel dice. Offensively we still aren't on the same level as any of the previous 4 books. At least with my Orcs and Gobs I go magic heavy for awesome magic defense. With Warriors you dont get enough offense for it to count against all the magic defense everybody is taking because of the last 4 armies and you dont even get enough magic defense out of it to face those last 4 armies down with.

guillaume
02-11-2008, 04:10
wait arent daemon princes flyers? therefore, what you need is a good setup on turn 1 then charge that artillery hill side on.

Sure a lot of point spent to take care of little dudes, but if you are so scared of it, then use the big guns, plus you might get some units nearby to flee from terror too.

Havock
02-11-2008, 04:16
DP with MoT, 4 levels of magic and diabolic splendour is a really decent multi-purpose unit. Not cheap, but it can do just about anything.

Vilicate
02-11-2008, 05:01
Wow, maybe this guy should just go play daemons, because I guess he won't be happy unless he can play an army that requires no tactical thought whatsoever.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that once this guys learns how to actually play Warhammer, he gets to have an opinion on how good/bad the list is.

Sidorio
02-11-2008, 05:09
just let them have their winge. i like the book and someone always has to do cry about it saying thats its all wrong. like you could have done any better.

Einholt
02-11-2008, 05:21
Um I agree with Vilicate for the most part. I agree with the original poster about the book but for very different reasons.

But frankly Sidorio yea I could have done a hell of a lot better.

Seems like having a negative opinion of something is always crying ain't it... nooooo it can't possibly be the book is not that good. Must be the crying.

I guess in sports when the referee makes a bad call everyone who disagrees with it is a whiner? Wrongfully convicted? Stop crying! Don't like how a director did a movie based on you're favorite book? STOP CRYING!

Yea we must be whining if we don't love the chaos book, how can it possibly be bad.

SuperArchMegalon
02-11-2008, 05:23
If you want your army to have no weakness you should just ditch your cavalry force and pick up Daemons.

Seriously I'm sick of people complaining about this book! So what if you can't have 10 DD without any wizards anymore - welcome to playing every other army! My Ogres don't get decent magic resistance without Butchers. It's the exact same thing.

To the TC: You could still put down 20+ Knights and a core of marauder horsemen in 2000 points. What's the problem??

Sidorio
02-11-2008, 05:29
But frankly Sidorio yea I could have done a hell of a lot better.

Seems like having a negative opinion of something is always crying ain't it... nooooo it can't possibly be the book is not that good. Must be the crying.

I guess in sports when the referee makes a bad call everyone who disagrees with it is a whiner? Wrongfully convicted? Stop crying! Don't like how a director did a movie based on you're favorite book? STOP CRYING!

Yea we must be whining if we don't love the chaos book, how can it possibly be bad.

someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed didn't they:mad:. well frankly all you lot are doing is crying about how you expected some mega cheese daemon list. i'm not saying a negative opinion is crying but all you are doing is having a little winge. grow up and deal with it, SuperArchMegalon's right. you want something super powered play daemons.

and also as you are obviously such a genious, go work for Games Workshop and write wonderful army books for us all to use so we can praise you or write it up and post it for us all to see what skill you have in designing these. :skull:

Einholt
02-11-2008, 05:31
Again, why are people sick of complaints for the book? How does it harm you? The book is bad so it DIRECTLY affects those of us who do not like it on the count of We already paid for the armies and now our armies are VASTLY different. These changes are not like the Empire or Dark Elves or High Elves changes I know I went through those too. Like hell I'm trying to be objective here with opinions of people who like it and who don't and argue the side of why something is bad when I point out it is (done in numerous threads) But the more and more I do the more people seem to be saying stop crying??? Do you have a reason?

If I were to take a sledgehammer to your car, I bet you would be very unhappy and complain and probably have a pretty damn good argument of why its bad for you. So do you feel me saying Stop whining and complaining would be an appropriate response?

If you have a reason state it if you don't. Ignore our opinion it does not affect you unlike this book which does affect me and other players (some like it some don't).

OH AND BTW? I do not play my daemon army now BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL. Wrong side of the bed no, just people making ignorant assumptions. And frankly the new mortals book Threw out restrictions on just about everything so the power gaming can now be done more easily and without thought. So don't *********** preach how we are whining about lack of power creep.

That is not what makes a book good and bad or rather the presence of ******** like removing restrictions for more power options is what is killing this army at the heart of it.

TheDarkDuke
02-11-2008, 05:31
1 big whinefest is RETARDED!

and thats when I stopped reading as you come across as a 8 year old who thinks he knows all life has to offer.

Sidorio
02-11-2008, 05:42
You want to know why people are sick of complaints. it's because everytime a new book is released someone starts to complain and thats all people do until the next one comes along for you to complain about, startiong the cycle again.

THIS IS A GAME. GAMES ARE MEANT TO BE PLAYED FOR FUN. NOT FOR PEOPLE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT!

i'll tell you what. you smash my car with a sledgehammer, i'll make you pay for the repairs (metaphorically speaking as i'm 16 and don't have a car). their is a big difference between the two. if you don't like what they've done with the new warriors, don't use them. :skull:

Einholt
02-11-2008, 05:59
Hard to do, since it very close to the hammer and car metaphor really. They basically took the hammer to my collection. Anyway yea I know its not the same it was just an emotional analogy.

But that doesn't mean we are not allowed a negative opinion. I havent whined too much about books that Don't concern me. I whined a bit about daemons being too good and the book basically ruined the army so my models sit now. This is a big deal since Hordes were my first army and I'm quite attached, so it is a big deal to me. It's getting tiresome of the treatment GW gives sometimes.

Especially when a lot of changes in the book seem very lazy. Blanket distribution of marks and lack of imagination for Standard Characters while loading up the SC's. It is clear where the design time went in this one and it is disappointing thats why I complain. The effort to make it what it should be (not talking about power) was just not there. That's what I meant by I can do better.

Havock
02-11-2008, 06:02
Hmmm, popcorn.

Seriously, the big isn't as powerful as the chaos daemons/VC's.

So effin' what? I thoroughly disliked the 'one up' kind of armybooks they appeared to be making since HE, it stopped with DE, which, by all accounts is a solid list, but a fun one. So is the chaos book. Sure, some things suck. Such as the fact that I lost quite some cash on daemons which I can't use anymore. I still hate someone's guts at GW HQ for that.

And yeah, the threshhold for that is quite low, I consider myself 'somewhat' misanthropic.

Einholt
02-11-2008, 06:15
I duno I guess I may be drawing some fire if people read the original post. So I guess I picked the wrong thread to adamantly defend people who complain.

I think it is preposterous to argue that the new WoC is not powerful enough. In fact my quarrel with it has nothing to do with power level instead it is that it doesn't feel as fun as the previous book and thats why I am upset.

Certain rules choices and major lore overhauls have changed the army in a way I deeply resent and it is the second army (my daemons) that is now being inactivated due to new rules and approach.

The daemons went all power creep on me and now mortals have been reduced to a shell of their former feel. Superficially appearing the same but so much is in fact different, I do not expect everyone to understand or agree.

Some people like it some are simply not as familiar with the old army's intricacies and cannot understand and thats why I got upset at being called a whiner. When I do have legitimate reason to dislike this book.

Sidorio
02-11-2008, 06:36
much better and as you properly explained yourself and your motives for your complaints i'll take back calling you a whiner. the rest of you though (glares) need to think before you post.

Storak
02-11-2008, 06:48
chaos warriors are still terrible, they got better but base cost 16 points for a big slow moving block of victory points that is march blocked if ever fielded and gets blasted to pieces and if you are lucky see combat on turn 5 but can still at any point be charged in the flank by 2 point goblin pieces of **** and auto killed.

this claim is simply false.

a unit of goblins (NG, static combat bonus +5 including flank) hitting the flank of a fully ranked warrior unit (using 3 attacks) will only win 43% of the time. (average combat result 0.1 (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calculations/main_simulator.php) in favor of the gobbos)

and the vast majority of those wins is by 1 point. hardly an autobreak against LD 8.

ps: Goblins cost 3 points.

Devil Tree
02-11-2008, 07:45
I think part of the problem is the absurd power creep that has been going on with the previous armies. Vampire Counts, Demons, High Elves and Dark Elves have gotten huge buffs to their lists, and more often than not they got things that are outright broken too.

WoC on the other hand, got a good solid list. There isnít really anything that cries out cheese, but nothing thatís causes them to be weak either.

OldMaster
02-11-2008, 08:27
Everyone knows infantry suck all around.


Psst. When writing a rant, don't include absolute nonsense. It makes you look somewhat .... inexperienced.

;)


It's always the same thing. Is it not the power of VC, Deamons and Dark Elves, it's whining about that WoC are not strong enough!

Seriously, if I was a games developer and I'd read all the complaints on this forum, I'd discharge myself. Because, as one can see now, in Warhammer there can be no balanced armies. There are always armies which are considered over the top which immediately classifies the rest of the armies as "underpowered" because they lose to that newcoming overpowered army now! Result: divine whining.

Also, the Deamons and Dark Elves both caused the same in a way, but now they've had some protection against VC: their own powercreep. This didn't lower the amount of liquid on here, not at all! Now, Vampire Count players whine about tDeamosn and both of them whine about Dark Elves.
Now, Phil Kelly either didn't want to follow the newfound GW tactic of armybook making, or he just wanted to make a balanced, Fluffy and cool list. I do believe that it was an attempt to avoid whining about the powercreep. Instead, people are now whining it's not as over the top as the last three are considered to be!

Think about it. It's the same as whining that nobody whines about them being overpowered. :wtf:


So, don't like it? You are hugely disappointed? Take a different army.


By the way, if I offended some Vampire Counts, Deamon and Dark Elves plaeyrs on here, it was not my intention to do so :) I just summarized the opinions on this site.

Wintermute
02-11-2008, 08:35
I'm closing this thread now before it gets any worse.

Wintermute