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Plebian
05-11-2008, 21:05
Hey Warhammer players, a question for you-
I am a long time 40k player and am interested in getting into warhammer(having already collected 7 armies of 2000+ points and not willing to wait until the DE release to start another) and have narrowed down my selection to 5 armies. However, no one in my frequent gaming group plays Warhammer, so I would mostley be playing tournaments in the Hobby shop, which is 30 miles away. Just from reading these boards it seems like a vast majority of armies are broken, or at least, not fun to play against. Now, we have WAAC players in 40k, but generally armies are pretty balanced and not susceptible to too much abuse. Is this the case in WHFB? Or is every powergamer very difficult beat with his unbalanced army? Thanks for your input.

Frep
05-11-2008, 21:12
First thing, don't listen to us on the boards we are all a bunch of whiny twits, the armies that are so "uuber broken the're gonna p0wn1! really aren't as ridiculous as people say. Vampires, Daemons are both considered very tough armies but are still beatable, there are just strong not auto-winning. Powergamers can be beat, admittedly some lists are very tough with specific armies but most of the time good tactics can help mitigate this. If you don't mind me asking but what are the 5 armies you were considering.

Draconian77
05-11-2008, 21:12
I think its generally accepted that Deamons of Chaos and Vampire Counts are the armies to beat at tournaments these days. For Chaos its near unbreakability combined with awesome hitti-ness and for Vampire counts its ridiculously overpowered characters.

At the opposite end of the spectrum we have Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Gobbos, Beasts of Chaos, Khemri and the Skaven.

Somewhere in the middle are Liardmen, Empire, all the Elves, the Brets(High middle but still middle) and anything I've forgotten.

For a tactical game of warhammer any of the middle races are great. If you don't abuse the books then Demons and Vamps are fun to play aswell.

Ogres, BoC, Khemri, O&G's and Skaven are fun to play but assuming you play a general of equal skill and the dice are "boringly average" you might be at a disadvantage.

I'm being really cagey in answering this, i'm trying to be truthful without leaving any obvious reasons to start a flame war. Of course all lists have a degree of 'ard and soft to them so its really down to the players and their attitudes. At a tournament I would describe the attitude as competitive.

Red_Duke
06-11-2008, 08:36
Indeed, i think its important to draw a distinction between tournament play (the GT being the pinacle of this) and normal friendlier games.

Most armies have a couple of abusable combos, or orrible special characters, but unless you're wanting to do regular tournaments youre unlikely ever really encounter them unless youre specifically wanting to play against them ;)

Overall i really like warhammer, and find it much more tactically satisfying than 40k, with different armies allowing quite varied styles of play and tactics.

Plebian
06-11-2008, 09:21
If you don't mind me asking but what are the 5 armies you were considering.

Lizardmen, all 3 elves and Tomb Kings

Red_Duke
06-11-2008, 10:18
Well, I find TK a rewarding army to play with, although its honestly not probably the best army to start Fantasy with (it can have something of a high learning curve).

Dark Elves are pretty good, and have a nice shiny new range of models (the cold ones are superb) and although fragile (like all elves) have a wide range of strategies and tactics.

Lizards are getting a redux soon, with talk of dinosaurs galore. They may even make saurus warriors decent! (or at least cheaper)

Personally id go with the one you like the look of the most though - all of your considerations can be good fun armies, so id go with your gut reaction, especially as its you that has to spend all that time painting them ;)

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 11:09
Between those choices I'd would pick Dark Elves or Wood Elves. Wood Elves are great if played well it really feels like your playing with hit and run tactics when you use them.

Dark Elves allow for many different army lists and the new codex made some units better.(Still some tragic flaws in it mind you) Mainly I like the Dark Elves because the are fast, fast, fast! Flyers, Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers are all available and they have some very good combat units aswell(The Black Guard and the Hydra being the coolest) This combination of speed and fragility makes them a double edged sword.

And their models are awesome...

burtnernie
06-11-2008, 13:23
Between those choices I'd would pick Dark Elves or Wood Elves. Wood Elves are great if played well it really feels like your playing with hit and run tactics when you use them.

Dark Elves allow for many different army lists and the new codex made some units better.(Still some tragic flaws in it mind you) Mainly I like the Dark Elves because the are fast, fast, fast! Flyers, Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers are all available and they have some very good combat units aswell(The Black Guard and the Hydra being the coolest) This combination of speed and fragility makes them a double edged sword.

And their models are awesome...

Elves are fantastic, was going to take DE to the GT this year. But they are vulnerable and would have taken me too long to paint. Unfortunately for me I am taking demons. But that is another story.

My frustration with the game of warhammer (I am only goin again this year as I lost on "rock, paper, scissors") was shown last year.

I played the previous years GT winner, with the same army he won with the previous year. I had a tree army, with some wardancers in it.... I got a draw against this guy and tbh probably played the best I ever have. In his last turn he elected to flee being only 7 inches from the board edge with his 2nd gen slaan. He ran 5". 1" out of both my treeman charges tho. So the game was a draw.

My next game was against dwarves. Gun Line. Despite my free wood. I didn't get a single one of my 4 units of dryads, treemen, treekin, or wardancers into his side of the board. Admittedly scoring 2 10's on the organ guns was a little harsh when it happened 1st and 2nd turn. But my point here is that I understand that some armies have a nemesis, but not to the point where one just can't even compete on the same level.

Player skill is out of the window, as is tactics. The new GT format has helped.

But if I were to offer some advice I would go with Lizzies. They are tougher, have many army list varients, can be competitive in magic and combat so you don't have to lean towards one, and they will get shiny new models.

TK, I love TK's but they just get stomped all over by most armies and they are a steep learning curve, they used to be a fantastically competitive army but they have been neglected while others have been buffed.

I'm not saying any army is way too powerful, apparently demons are ruling the GT's but they can come unstuck and I have beaten them myself. Vamps have the most flexibility and ability to adpat and react accordingly.

Elves, whilst are lovely, lovely models across the board, are just too squishy... especially black guard.

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 13:54
Like I said Elves are middle tier armies, their probably not going to be winning any GTs as long as Vamps and Demons are out there but their much more fun to play with because they require actual tactics to use.

Gunlines are boring for nearly any army to face, its not just woodsies...

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-11-2008, 20:25
Hey Warhammer players, a question for you-
I am a long time 40k player and am interested in getting into warhammer(having already collected 7 armies of 2000+ points and not willing to wait until the DE release to start another) and have narrowed down my selection to 5 armies. However, no one in my frequent gaming group plays Warhammer, so I would mostley be playing tournaments in the Hobby shop, which is 30 miles away. Just from reading these boards it seems like a vast majority of armies are broken, or at least, not fun to play against. Now, we have WAAC players in 40k, but generally armies are pretty balanced and not susceptible to too much abuse. Is this the case in WHFB? Or is every powergamer very difficult beat with his unbalanced army? Thanks for your input.

There are two, maybe three armies that are considered broken. The first is Daemons, and the second Vampire Counts. The third is dark elves.

The high mid tier has DE's two elven brethren and Brettonians (in no real order of power).

The mid tier has the new Chaos. The new Chaos is better than Dwarves, but not by much. With a loss of fliers, skirmishers, no range, expensive magic, easy to break (assuming you make it past their armor saves), and being one of the most easy armies to exploit (in my opinion). That being said, they are no push over as they will hit you hard and will be tough to bring down. On the plus side you'll probably outnumber them probably 3-1.

Other mid tier armies include Empire and Dwarves. Dwarves have guns and are hard as hell to break, and are having trouble with the new books. Empire can accomplish just about anything.

Followed by is the mid-low tier which are Lizardmen and Skaven. Skaven still have some tricks up their sleaves (Lustria's clan pestilance with the plague spell en mass), but it's getting harder to use them with every new book that comes out.

Then there's the low low tier. Orcs and Goblins, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms and Beasts of Chaos.

However, I make it sound a lot worse then it really is. Just about every army has something to exploit to give you an edge. I've seen Ogre Kingdoms grind a Khorne Daemon army into dust in such a onesided match it wasn't even funny. And no, it was new daemon player. It was an experienced player with a tournament grade army. I've also seen Skaven tear daemons and vampire counts a new one.

If you're playing with a bunch of friends then it shouldn't be hard to design games that everyone can enjoy. Any game with two armies facing each other can be fun and win-able with any team. It only really isn't that way when you take a low low tier army vs. tournament grade Vampire Counts or Daemons.

Plebian
06-11-2008, 20:37
Thanks for all your advice. I think I will wait till LM come out, then make a decision. Rest assured I will be reading this board thoroughly! I don't want to get my head kicked in my first tourney, as I have a bit of a (40k) reputation to protect!

PARTYCHICORITA
06-11-2008, 20:47
There are two, maybe three armies that are considered broken. The first is Daemons, and the second Vampire Counts. The third is dark elves.


:wtf: Dark elves?

On the broken subject: Some people may say deamons or VC are broken but other than the monotzeench a million PD army even DoC are managable (allthough it's true both DoC and VC have the strongest books out there these days).
All 3 elven armies are great, TK however in my opinion have a weak book atm as well as the Lizardmen. The lizzies however are getting a nice redone in a couple of months so maybe you should wait and see.

blackjack
06-11-2008, 20:49
The bottom line is that almost very army has a cheese build or two. A Skaven gun line with jizzails and rattling guns will own most deamon lists for instance.

Deamons have more power builds as almost all of thier units are great and VC are terribly forgiving to tactical mistakes as lost troops are so easy to raise/replace.

But no, despite the whiners and comp nazies warhammer is not broken.

sulla
06-11-2008, 21:34
:wtf: Dark elves?



For some people, broken = 'the army that just beat my army'. :D

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-11-2008, 21:43
:wtf: Dark elves?

On the broken subject: Some people may say deamons or VC are broken but other than the monotzeench a million PD army even DoC are managable (allthough it's true both DoC and VC have the strongest books out there these days).
All 3 elven armies are great, TK however in my opinion have a weak book atm as well as the Lizardmen. The lizzies however are getting a nice redone in a couple of months so maybe you should wait and see.

They were the "maybe third broken army", but I haven't personally faced them yet (I have no time during the summer to play them, or even now during college). I was just basing this off of what I see people complaining about here.

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 23:09
DE Magic- Weaker, still very expensive.
DE Combat- Better, no internal balance in the book however(Executioners are pointless...)
DE Shooting- Expensive and I have dropped all my Bolt Throwers and RxBmen.
DE Magic Items- About 1-2 good ones per category, pretty bad actually.

Overall they are a stronger army but its no longer a gunline/magicfest+mobility army, much more of a "Get 'em lads!" army. A get 'em lads army with no resilience to shooting or evil combos of doom.

Ward.
07-11-2008, 08:36
They were the "maybe third broken army", but I haven't personally faced them yet (I have no time during the summer to play them, or even now during college). I was just basing this off of what I see people complaining about here.

Rest assured you weren't far off the mark, they're not broken but they are definitely in third place.